Offensive - Not Kosher?

[just]

[update/more info below]

I figure this is a small thing to change, so we're going to change it regardless, but I'm curious on if I'm being overly sensitive.

This was sent from our company's helpdesk

"Thank you for your email. Please do not reply or click on any of the links within the message; it is indeed NOT KOSHER – spam – and should be deleted."

I'm rubbing against the NOT KOSHER part. Is the phrase wide-spread enough that using it in this manner isn't offensive?

[Aside: I think I'm particularly rubbing against it because it was sent to a director of a holocaust studies center]

[meganew]

I’ve heard not kosher used a lot when meaning that something isn’t ok or right- “He said some stuff during an argument that was not kosher, and I’m pissed.”

I think the way it was worded in the email (being specific to spam? Wth?) might be iffy. But! I’m not Jewish and I’m interested to see what others thoughts are because it might need to be something I change.

[rupertpenny]

Including the phrase "not kosher" seems to be completely extraneous. Saying it is spam is enough. I think they were trying to be funny because spam the food is literally not kosher, but I don't think it is an appropriate joke. Also, not funny.

In any case, I have been trying to avoid this phrase in my everyday life. I don't know that it is offensive per se, but it is easy enough to just choose other words.

[ohgillian]

Meh. I'm not thrilled about it, but not super offended either. On the other hand, as a jew in the American South, I've had to drop my bar for what's offensive pretty low.

FWIW, this is not a phrase that I use unless I"m talking about treyf food.

[shauni27]

As a Jew I do not personally find it offensive, but if others do then I would defer to them.

I think it is 100% unprofessional, however.

[just]

Feb 19, 2020 10:26:35 GMT -5 just said:

I figure this is a small thing to change, so we're going to change it regardless, but I'm curious on if I'm being overly sensitive.

This was sent from our company's helpdesk

"Thank you for your email. Please do not reply or click on any of the links within the message; it is indeed NOT KOSHER – spam – and should be deleted."

I'm rubbing against the NOT KOSHER part. Is the phrase wide-spread enough that using it in this manner isn't offensive?

[Aside: I think I'm particularly rubbing against it because it was sent to a director of a holocaust studies center]

Ok, I actually did some more digging and the client in his original report wrote - "I assume this email is non-kosher?" so the technician was responding specifically to the clients concern, which is a technique we do teach to demonstrate reading/listening. So my immediate concern is addressed (a student responding to the director of a holocaust studies center with that phrase). However, we will talk about continuing to demonstrate understanding of the issue while also being professional.

Thanks all!

[AJL]

Also a Jew and it gets a “meh” from me. I agree that it was extraneous though.

[AJL]

As a joke on spam, I laughed. *shrug* It’s punny.

[TR]

Feb 19, 2020 11:36:15 GMT -5 just said:

Feb 19, 2020 10:26:35 GMT -5 just said:

I figure this is a small thing to change, so we're going to change it regardless, but I'm curious on if I'm being overly sensitive.

This was sent from our company's helpdesk

"Thank you for your email. Please do not reply or click on any of the links within the message; it is indeed NOT KOSHER – spam – and should be deleted."

I'm rubbing against the NOT KOSHER part. Is the phrase wide-spread enough that using it in this manner isn't offensive?

[Aside: I think I'm particularly rubbing against it because it was sent to a director of a holocaust studies center]

Ok, I actually did some more digging and the client in his original report wrote - "I assume this email is non-kosher?" so the technician was responding specifically to the clients concern, which is a technique we do teach to demonstrate reading/listening. So my immediate concern is addressed (a student responding to the director of a holocaust studies center with that phrase). However, we will talk about continuing to demonstrate understanding of the issue while also being professional.

Thanks all!

It sounds like the original guy was making the not kosher/spam joke and the respondent is just going with it. It doesn't seem unprofessional to me since he didn't just come up with it out of thin air and it sounds like the person who sent the e-mail and started the joke is well acquainted with Jewish culture.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

I wouldn't say it's offensive since it's not really pejorative against Jewish people. Calling your budget manager a Shylock would be offensive. I think it's just culturally insensitive. The speaker probably has no grasp of what keeping kosher is or means. There are other, more culturally-neutral ways to phrase it. (Not Jewish myself, but family heritage.)

[af1212]

Feb 19, 2020 16:25:52 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

I wouldn't say it's offensive since it's not really pejorative against Jewish people. Calling your budget manager a Shylock would be offensive. I think it's just culturally insensitive. The speaker probably has no grasp of what keeping kosher is or means. There are other, more culturally-neutral ways to phrase it. (Not Jewish myself, but family heritage.)

The speaker is the director of holocaust studies 😉😉 so prob has an idea of what “kosher” means.

OP if it were just your employee using it I might work some info about speaking professionally into your next training, but since it was used initially instead by the client I say it’s fine.

[mountaingirl]

Feb 19, 2020 15:54:00 GMT -5 AJL said:

As a joke on spam, I laughed. *shrug* It’s punny.

. Ahh. I didn’t read it this way but wonder if it was written as a pun? I smiled after realizing The kosher and Spam relationship.

[jackie011]

As a Jewish person, I do not find this offensive, especially given the further information. I use this phrase from time to time amongst coworkers at my Jewish nonprofit job. However, we also spend a great deal of time discussing whether something is or is not kosher, though I sometimes use it in non-food contexts, as well.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

Feb 19, 2020 17:28:17 GMT -5 af1212 said:

Feb 19, 2020 16:25:52 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

I wouldn't say it's offensive since it's not really pejorative against Jewish people. Calling your budget manager a Shylock would be offensive. I think it's just culturally insensitive. The speaker probably has no grasp of what keeping kosher is or means. There are other, more culturally-neutral ways to phrase it. (Not Jewish myself, but family heritage.)

The speaker is the director of holocaust studies 😉😉 so prob has an idea of what “kosher” means.

OP if it were just your employee using it I might work some info about speaking professionally into your next training, but since it was used initially instead by the client I say it’s fine.

lol yeahhhh that makes a bit of a difference. I had the two parties flipped in my head. My sentiment stands for the general public, but in this case -- KOKO 

[Michelle]

Feb 20, 2020 9:33:15 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

Feb 19, 2020 17:28:17 GMT -5 af1212 said:

The speaker is the director of holocaust studies 😉😉 so prob has an idea of what “kosher” means.

OP if it were just your employee using it I might work some info about speaking professionally into your next training, but since it was used initially instead by the client I say it’s fine.

lol yeahhhh that makes a bit of a difference. I had the two parties flipped in my head. My sentiment stands for the general public, but in this case -- KOKO 

What does KOKO mean, in this context? Yes, I am a 75 year old woman trapped in a 40-something year old body when it comes to social media slang. 

Urban dictionary gave me several different definitions, one of which was, "most important thing." In this case does it mean OK?

tia!

[ChillyMcFreeze]

Feb 20, 2020 13:15:41 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Feb 20, 2020 9:33:15 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

lol yeahhhh that makes a bit of a difference. I had the two parties flipped in my head. My sentiment stands for the general public, but in this case -- KOKO 

What does KOKO mean, in this context? Yes, I am a 75 year old woman trapped in a 40-something year old body when it comes to social media slang. 

Urban dictionary gave me several different definitions, one of which was, "most important thing." In this case does it mean OK?

tia!

keep on keepin' on. See also: do your thang.

[Michelle]

Feb 20, 2020 13:25:26 GMT -5 ChillyMcFreeze said:

Feb 20, 2020 13:15:41 GMT -5 Michelle said:

What does KOKO mean, in this context? Yes, I am a 75 year old woman trapped in a 40-something year old body when it comes to social media slang. 

Urban dictionary gave me several different definitions, one of which was, "most important thing." In this case does it mean OK?

tia!

keep on keepin' on. See also: do your thang.

thank you!

[downtoearth]

I stopped using it personally, but I do hear a few friends (who are Jewish) who still use it quite a bit. I am not upset if they use it and don't correct people, but it's so easy to just use a synonymous statement.

[AJL]

Y'all do know that "kosher" isn't a slur, right? It means something that is regarded as "legitimate" or satisfying the requirements of Jewish dietary law.

To say something is "not Kosher" isn't a slur or a put-down of Jewish people or customs. It's simply a word being used as slang for "legitimate" (unless you follow the laws of kashrut and are using the phrase to ask if something is suitable for you to eat.)

I sometimes think that very well meaning progressive individuals go a bit too far in trying to avoid being offensive that they lose their reasonable thought.

[just]

Feb 20, 2020 21:52:12 GMT -5 AJL said:

Y'all do know that "kosher" isn't a slur, right? It means something that is regarded as "legitimate" or satisfying the requirements of Jewish dietary law.

To say something is "not Kosher" isn't a slur or a put-down of Jewish people or customs. It's simply a word being used as slang for "legitimate" (unless you follow the laws of kashrut and are using the phrase to ask if something is suitable for you to eat.)

I sometimes think that very well meaning progressive individuals go a bit too far in trying to avoid being offensive that they lose their reasonable thought.

I know what kosher means, and I've used it in conversation both in relation to food and otherwise. But I manage a team of paraprofessionals where sometimes they don't think about what they write, and if out-of-the-blue one of my employees uses kosher in that way to a director of a holocaust center, and that client wonders if there was a reason that employee used that word with them, rather than with someone else, it's not a good look for us. 

I didn't burn shit down, I didn't even say anything to the employee at all. I came here looking here for a gut check and got it - it's not a big deal. There are many phrases out there that have been mainstreamed but can be taken offensively or irreverantly even when used correctly. I feel it's better to check this shit than show my ass. I'm fine being tagged as a well-meaning progressive if it means I go too far the other direction sometimes.

Also, I love that I can come here for a gut check. I trust you guys to tell me when shit is BS and when I'm being too much of snowflake, so keep schooling me either way.

ETA: Also I love that you guys found the humour in the Spam/Kosher thing. This particular tech has zero wit/humour so I know it was unintended, but I like that they made a very accidental pun

[AJL]

Feb 20, 2020 22:48:32 GMT -5 just said:

Feb 20, 2020 21:52:12 GMT -5 AJL said:

Y'all do know that "kosher" isn't a slur, right? It means something that is regarded as "legitimate" or satisfying the requirements of Jewish dietary law.

To say something is "not Kosher" isn't a slur or a put-down of Jewish people or customs. It's simply a word being used as slang for "legitimate" (unless you follow the laws of kashrut and are using the phrase to ask if something is suitable for you to eat.)

I sometimes think that very well meaning progressive individuals go a bit too far in trying to avoid being offensive that they lose their reasonable thought.

I know what kosher means, and I've used it in conversation both in relation to food and otherwise. But I manage a team of paraprofessionals where sometimes they don't think about what they write, and if out-of-the-blue one of my employees uses kosher in that way to a director of a holocaust center, and that client wonders if there was a reason that employee used that word with them, rather than with someone else, it's not a good look for us. 

I didn't burn shit down, I didn't even say anything to the employee at all. I came here looking here for a gut check and got it - it's not a big deal. There are many phrases out there that have been mainstreamed but can be taken offensively or irreverantly even when used correctly. I feel it's better to check this shit than show my ass. I'm fine being tagged as a well-meaning progressive if it means I go too far the other direction sometimes.

Also, I love that I can come here for a gut check. I trust you guys to tell me when shit is BS and when I'm being too much of snowflake, so keep schooling me either way.

ETA: Also I love that you guys found the humour in the Spam/Kosher thing. This particular tech has zero wit/humour so I know it was unintended, but I like that they made a very accidental pun

I actually wasn't referring to you at all with my comment. I can understand why you think I was. I was making a general observation about "well meaning progressives."   I'm sorry you felt the need to defend your position. 

[just]

Feb 20, 2020 23:15:26 GMT -5 AJL said:

Feb 20, 2020 22:48:32 GMT -5 just said:

I know what kosher means, and I've used it in conversation both in relation to food and otherwise. But I manage a team of paraprofessionals where sometimes they don't think about what they write, and if out-of-the-blue one of my employees uses kosher in that way to a director of a holocaust center, and that client wonders if there was a reason that employee used that word with them, rather than with someone else, it's not a good look for us. 

I didn't burn shit down, I didn't even say anything to the employee at all. I came here looking here for a gut check and got it - it's not a big deal. There are many phrases out there that have been mainstreamed but can be taken offensively or irreverantly even when used correctly. I feel it's better to check this shit than show my ass. I'm fine being tagged as a well-meaning progressive if it means I go too far the other direction sometimes.

Also, I love that I can come here for a gut check. I trust you guys to tell me when shit is BS and when I'm being too much of snowflake, so keep schooling me either way.

ETA: Also I love that you guys found the humour in the Spam/Kosher thing. This particular tech has zero wit/humour so I know it was unintended, but I like that they made a very accidental pun

I actually wasn't referring to you at all with my comment. I can understand why you think I was. I was making a general observation about "well meaning progressives."   I'm sorry you felt the need to defend your position. 

I feel like the second major bullet point of the “well-meaning progressive” charter is getting defensive over shit not directed at them, particularly from those who we've asked for help! So my position stands !!

Thanks for chiming in, now and originally, it really does help.

[ellipses84]

This matter has been settled, but before the post I’d been thinking about origins of slang terms and whether they are unintentionally or historically offensive, or simply unprofessional. I used to have a boss from the south that used all sorts of crazy phrases and coworkers started saying some of them too, but nobody knew where they originated from. The term Money Shot is used a lot in my industry and I realized it’s probably not the best thing to say to clients. I know it applies to normal films (not in my industry) but even one of the dictionary definitions is the porn term.