Landscape design pricing? Updated in responses w/proposal

[RockNVoll]

We need professional help laying out a landscape design for our front and back yards.  It'll all be plantings-related, no hardscape (we just put in a paver patio last year).  Besides that patio, the back yard is pretty much a giant empty green rectangle of roughly 20k sf, and the front yard is relatively small and similarly empty.  Curious what's reasonable for pricing for this work, while understanding this will vary by region (we're in HCOL).  I've reached out to a few companies but only one has responded so far and they've indicated it will cost ~$3,500.  This is separate from the build work and doesn't get credited towards that.  I'm mostly looking into design/build firms to keep things simple.

Just hoping to get a sanity check on pricing since I've never hired for this sort of thing before.  TIA!

[ssmjlm]

Landscaping IMO always seems more expensive than you estimate because it's back breaking work and does require them to adequately plan based on size, sun, etc.

For both a front and back yard, that price seems a little low.

[mrspez07]

That sounds like a good price.

We just got a quote for the front yard from the people that did our patio and small landscape area last year. It was higher than we hoped. About 500 SF converted all to plantings, small low wall (under a foot) using ex stone we have, 9k.
Concrete Patio and sandstone pavers and landscape last year was 20k

Are you looking at trees and shrubs or just turf? Trees, shrubs and hardscape are all expensive.

[RockNVoll]

mrspez07, to be clear the $3,500 is just for the design plan, not for any installation or materials. In other words, I get the blueprints for that price and can then take them to anyone to execute (or do ourselves, but LOL to that).

We have turf (i.e., an established lawn) already. We're now looking to add beds, plants, probably a couple of trees--yeah, won't be cheap. But, hey, we're saving enough from our lack of travel and dining out to cover (a lot? some? a bit? of) it, right?

[sandandsea]

That seems high. Have you considered an online company to do the design? Without hardscape I think the design is more readily and affordable done online.

[mrspez07]

Talking through it a bit:
That seems a bit high for the design only, but I haven’t worked in residential design. I do commercial work as a Landscape Architect and our hourly rate would equal around that for 20-30 hours of design work, which is closer to a full official submittal/construction drawings to a jurisdiction. But there are other costs going to other parts of the project too, like survey, engineering, project coordination outside of those hours. Of course my design work is on a CAD base file that is already scaled accurately. Your person will need to measure and lay out your site before doing the design.

Does your fee include meetings with you to discuss and refine? Is the person/company that also has a build/install team? If so, some of that fee may be waived. Our guy (an LA) charges around $300-$500 for each design and part of that is not charged if you have them do the construction work. I also already had a CAD file I had created for him on both the front and back (on a site not as big as yours), so maybe he charges mire to others.

[RockNVoll]

sandandsea, from recent posts on the subject it doesn't seem like there are great online resources for doing outdoor design. Are you aware of a good site I could check out?

mrspez07, thanks for talking it through. I don't have the formal proposal from the company yet that details everything that's included in the fee, or even the final fee itself. The $3,500 estimate is based on the initial conversation I had with one of their PMs (who is an LA), and I do know it's considered a separate fee/service from the build work because I specifically asked that question so there's no credit back even if we have them do the installation (which we plan to--the fewer interviews and firms I have to deal with the better).

Can I ask if you're in a HCOL area as well? Sounds like this rate is higher than what you'd expect in your area.

[mrspez07]

RockNVoll
I’m in Denver. I believe we’re up there on a HCOL, but not like SF or NYC.
I mean, if it’s a comprehensive design and includes detailed meetings, maybe $3500 isn’t unreasonable, but I would think hardscape and picking out patio details would be more likely on such a price. For just planting design, still on the high side to me.

[RockNVoll]

May 20, 2020 9:01:06 GMT -5 mrspez07 said:

RockNVoll
I’m in Denver. I believe we’re up there on a HCOL, but not like SF or NYC.
I mean, if it’s a comprehensive design and includes detailed meetings, maybe $3500 isn’t unreasonable, but I would think hardscape and picking out patio details would be more likely on such a price. For just planting design, still on the high side to me.

Got it, thanks!  I'm in Boston, so definitely pricier than Denver but not quite as bad as SF/NYC

I hate purchasing things for which I have no frame of reference.  Still trying to see if I can get one or two more quotes for comparison but I've had no luck so far getting any other responses.

[gardengal]

I’m a residential landscape designer in a HCOL area.

Depending on your design needs, 3500 sounds right. If you’re wanting hardscape, lots of new beds, etc. it can be time consuming To properly design especially if they are doing proper site analysis which online places can’t do.

If they have a good website, maybe look at projects there & ask what the design fee was for each? To compare?

That said, if pressed into the spot for a design estimate, I always high ball. I revise it when I get back & can sit & better consider the clients needs & requirements, what the site needs, any issues I suspect might be time consuming to problem solve, etc. Clients usually just take it better if I’m all: “Actually, the design fee will be 2500, not 3500 now that I’ve had time to consider everything” vs “I think actually the design would be more expensive than I said....”

[RockNVoll]

Really helpful, gardengal, thank you!

[k3am]

RockNVoll , I haven't used them or researched them, and I'm sure there are some pros and cons to it, but shrubhub keeps popping up in my facebook feed. Doesn't hurt to look into it and see if it could be an option before dropping $3500.

ETA: the site says the following: Custom designs from local professionals can cost you upwards of $1,500 to $3,000 for your project and then they charge an additional $150 per hour for revisions, so the price you've been quoted pretty much falls into that range. 

[gardengal]

RockNVoll, no prob. For that price, I'd definitely be clear on what they will deliver and what kind of analysis they are doing. Like, they definitely should be doing soil testing for each new planting area/place with reasons for the soil to be different. I generally include a certain number of revisions in my estimate (or, I should say, batch of revisions. I'm OK with changing things all at once but I don't want to be making 50 "final" documents), for example. Do they?

I do find it strange if they are design-build & 0% of design goes towards plants or labor. I used to do both design & build (now just design) and I would credit a % of design fee to plants/labor to install plants (lighting, hardscape, etc were all subcontractors for me).

[RockNVoll]

May 20, 2020 15:22:33 GMT -5 gardengal said:

RockNVoll , no prob. For that price, I'd definitely be clear on what they will deliver and what kind of analysis they are doing. Like, they definitely should be doing soil testing for each new planting area/place with reasons for the soil to be different. I generally include a certain number of revisions in my estimate (or, I should say, batch of revisions. I'm OK with changing things all at once but I don't want to be making 50 "final" documents), for example. Do they?

I do find it strange if they are design-build & 0% of design goes towards plants or labor. I used to do both design & build (now just design) and I would credit a % of design fee to plants/labor to install plants (lighting, hardscape, etc were all subcontractors for me).

I expect the proposal she'll give us to spell out what's included in the price.  So far all we've done is have one phone conversation and then a ~45-minute site visit where we chatted in more detail in person (masked and socially distanced .  They typically do soil test but results are slow these days since many labs aren't operating at full capacity.  I plan to provide them a soil test that our organic fertilization service did last year that might (?) reduce the need to do another one.  We're definitely allowed to iterate the plan, though how extensively and how many times remains to be seen.  

I kind of thought it was strange that we wouldn't get some credit towards building too if we went with them, but, as I said, I've never done this before so don't know how unusual it is.  What I'm more concerned about is that we pay $3,500, absolutely hate the design, and therefore just flushed money down the toilet.  I hate not really knowing what I'm paying for.

[gardengal]

May 20, 2020 15:28:30 GMT -5 RockNVoll said:

May 20, 2020 15:22:33 GMT -5 gardengal said:

RockNVoll , no prob. For that price, I'd definitely be clear on what they will deliver and what kind of analysis they are doing. Like, they definitely should be doing soil testing for each new planting area/place with reasons for the soil to be different. I generally include a certain number of revisions in my estimate (or, I should say, batch of revisions. I'm OK with changing things all at once but I don't want to be making 50 "final" documents), for example. Do they?

I do find it strange if they are design-build & 0% of design goes towards plants or labor. I used to do both design & build (now just design) and I would credit a % of design fee to plants/labor to install plants (lighting, hardscape, etc were all subcontractors for me).

I expect the proposal she'll give us to spell out what's included in the price.  So far all we've done is have one phone conversation and then a ~45-minute site visit where we chatted in more detail in person (masked and socially distanced .  They typically do soil test but results are slow these days since many labs aren't operating at full capacity.  I plan to provide them a soil test that our organic fertilization service did last year that might (?) reduce the need to do another one.  We're definitely allowed to iterate the plan, though how extensively and how many times remains to be seen.  

I kind of thought it was strange that we wouldn't get some credit towards building too if we went with them, but, as I said, I've never done this before so don't know how unusual it is.  What I'm more concerned about is that we pay $3,500, absolutely hate the design, and therefore just flushed money down the toilet.  I hate not really knowing what I'm paying for.

If it makes you feel better I’ve only had 1 client in 6 yrs hate the design but was also unwilling to show or tell me anything she liked instead. I ended up refunding what she paid for my time (I had done lab tests & such) bc it just was a horrible designer-client fit.

Maybe ask for referrals? I’ve definitely had potential clients ask to talk to clients with completed work.

[treedimensional]

My rates are hourly. I can normally come up with a concept very quickly and sketch it out in a few hours. I have yet to exceed $800. for a full color design. Partials (small areas) can be as little as $325. Maybe I should raise my rates.

[scout8]

Granted, it was 15 years ago, but I paid $300 for mine. Small yard in a MCOL city. Apparently, I'm cheap!

[RockNVoll]

Reviving this thread now that I have the detailed proposal. It basically boils down to an hourly rate of $150/hr. and the breaks down like this:

• Existing conditions review, base plan creation (on top of detailed survey to be provided by Client), and site analysis, site visit = 4 hrs. = $600
• Proposed black and white landscape plan and color image book to illustrate design concepts = 14 hrs. = $2,100

• One meeting w/Client to review concepts and 4 hours of revisions to plans = 6 hrs. = $900
• TOTAL = $3,600 + expenses for travel and printing of oversized plans and image books at cost
  

14 hours seems like a lot of time to do the design, even if it is both front and back yards.  I've also already supplied soil test results from my lawn care service, as well as pdf's of the site survey and existing stone patio (she's requested CAD files for the survey, which I'm not sure I can get). 

I'm not trying to devalue her work or professional experience, I'm just wary because it's hard to know what's reasonable having never hired for something like this before.  Based on what you've all said in this thread so far, it seems like this estimate is certainly on the high end.  A local nursery will do designs for about $700 but I don't know if they're RLAs or what I'd get from one that I wouldn't get from the other. 

Any additional advice, comments, negotiation tips?

[mrspez07]

Well, I think the hourly rate is on the high end, but you are in a HCOL area, so maybe that’s the norm.
A few thoughts: I think you could try to remove the color book images, by my estimates, for a small site, 1 8hr day is sufficient for a nearly complete design. Maybe 10.
You could try to whittle down the meeting and revisions with client a bit by just requesting a phone call or video. Not likely to take 2 hours that way. Ask if you’d be billed less if there were less hours of changes here or even throughout. (Hourly versus flat fee)

[sandandsea]

I would also ask if it’s hourly or flat fee. Is there any part you can cut out? Do you need a full book of color pictures for your contractor? Are there any pieces you can DIy or have a design base ready to o my discuss finishes with them to cut down on hours?

I think we will be using a designer for our project but we already have measured and drawn our basic design and have a series of pictures saved that show exactly what we are thinking. So I think it’s be an easier project for someone since we’ve done so much of the leg work and know what we want. We are doing a retaining wall, leveling the ground, adding a spa and patio so it’s very involved and designer quotes are between $3-6k for front and backyard designs in a VHCOL. We don’t have detailed quotes yet but rough estimates and also aren’t sure exactly what our plan is for designer/contractor/project manager yet. It all depends on who we use as they all do and want different things.