Which kind of a professional does this? UPDATED

[Pilsy]

*poof*

Sounds like an estate attorney and/or an elder law attorney can help. That's what I figured, but I appreciate all the thoughts and the opportunity to vent and put some thoughts on "paper."


Thanks!

UPDATE: #3 told #1 everything needs to be spit evenly, and #1 agreed. It's what's in the will and trust, so I'm not sure where the confusion was coming from, but this is a relief. There are still some questions about the details due to extenuating circumstances I won't get into here, but they have an appointment with an estate attorney next week, and I'm confident it will be worked out. Thanks for the thoughts and kind words. 

[cleo29]

I would look for for a an estate lawyer. I would also consider not splitting that property deed three way when selling if #2 has had the benefit of living there rent free for a quite some time. I would propose not making it an even split, but maybe that is me being mean. Also, is #2 going to be expected to get a job at some point?

I agree, this should be decided on now and written up so it is set.

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 10:31:33 GMT -5 cleo29 said:

I would look for for a an estate lawyer. I would also consider not splitting that property deed three way when selling if #2 has had the benefit of living there rent free for a quite some time. I would propose not making it an even split, but maybe that is me being mean. Also, is #2 going to be expected to get a job at some point?

I agree, this should be decided on now and written up so it is set.

Is there any reason to get a different one than the one MIL used to write her will and trust? Probably not, right? 

And yes, we're also really torn about the whole equal-split issue. On one hand, we understand #2's life hasn't gone the way everyone would have liked, and #1 and #3 are much better off and don't *need* anything the way #2 does. But that's also a HUGE financial benefit. And #2 tends to take things for granted, which is annoying. 

Everyone wants #2 to get a job, and I'm sure that's "the plan," but when it will happen is beyond me. 


ETA: Yes, we want it figured out right away and drawn up with a formal agreement. We are just not set on doing it by the end of next week, which seems to be #1's timeline. I mean, if that works out, great; but we'd like to think it through well and not just do what #1 has proposed.  That plan seems to have some holes in it. 

[madringal]

Did MIL use an estate attorney to prepare her trust? I would start there if she did. Also, farmvillelover would likely be able to tell you what kind of attorney you may need.

Couldn't the value of the property be added to the total estate, and then #2 basically gets the property and less cash, and #1 and #3 get the cash? This way no one has to worry about rent and taxes later? #2 has a mortgage free property and can fend for himself? But then owns the property to later sell and do with what he chooses?

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 10:54:01 GMT -5 madringal said:

Did MIL use an estate attorney to prepare her trust? I would start there if she did. Also, farmvillelover would likely be able to tell you what kind of attorney you may need.

Couldn't the value of the property be added to the total estate, and then #2 basically gets the property and less cash, and #1 and #3 get the cash? This way no one has to worry about rent and taxes later? #2 has a mortgage free property and can fend for himself? But then owns the property to later sell and do with what he chooses?

Yes, so I was asking if we could use the same one. But maybe you mean we should just ask that attorney who can help. Great idea. I'm only indirectly involved, but I'll ask my husband to bring this up with #1 and #2. 

Your idea is good and probably how many families would do it. It's definitely an option, but I don't think they'll go for that. There's a general belief #2 needs to get some kind of benefit, because #2 has pretty much nothing. 

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 11:01:28 GMT -5 @kar said:

Is there enough money to pay off the mortgage and then split the value of the estate evenly 3 ways - 1 & 3 get cash, 2 gets property + cash? If so, that’s what I’d do.

Yes, there is. 

[krystee]

I would split evenly three ways (cash for 1 and 3, property and less cash for 2) and be done with it. Clean break, and no opportunity for bitterness or resentment or messiness later.

[waverly]

I do agree formalizing it is the best way to go. I think the trust needs to pay off the property or it needs to be sold now. I would contact an elder law or estate law attorney.

[Pilsy]

*poof*

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 11:09:58 GMT -5 krystee said:

I would split evenly three ways (cash for 1 and 3, property and less cash for 2) and be done with it. Clean break, and no opportunity for bitterness or resentment or messiness later.

*poof*

I'm hoping a professional might give the same advice. And if not, so be it, and any advice we receive will be professional and well-informed. 

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 11:10:11 GMT -5 waverly said:

I do agree formalizing it is the best way to go. I think the trust needs to pay off the property or it needs to be sold now. I would contact an elder law or estate law attorney.

Elder law is the specialty I couldn't remember. And I failed to Google. lol

Thanks!

[melmel48]

I am sorry for your loss. I imagine her estate attorney, if you know who that is, could assist you in either figuring this out or can refer you to someone with expertise in this area. Good Luck!

[melmel48]

May 22, 2020 11:15:02 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

May 22, 2020 11:10:11 GMT -5 waverly said:

I do agree formalizing it is the best way to go. I think the trust needs to pay off the property or it needs to be sold now. I would contact an elder law or estate law attorney.

Elder law is the specialty I couldn't remember. And I failed to Google. lol

Thanks!

The guy who wrote up my documents is both Elder and Estate. This is a really good place to start!

[madringal]

May 22, 2020 11:02:57 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

May 22, 2020 10:54:01 GMT -5 madringal said:

Did MIL use an estate attorney to prepare her trust? I would start there if she did. Also, farmvillelover would likely be able to tell you what kind of attorney you may need.

Couldn't the value of the property be added to the total estate, and then #2 basically gets the property and less cash, and #1 and #3 get the cash? This way no one has to worry about rent and taxes later? #2 has a mortgage free property and can fend for himself? But then owns the property to later sell and do with what he chooses?

Yes, so I was asking if we could use the same one. But maybe you mean we should just ask that attorney who can help. Great idea. I'm only indirectly involved, but I'll ask my husband to bring this up with #1 and #2. 

Your idea is good and probably how many families would do it. It's definitely an option, but I don't think they'll go for that. There's a general belief #2 needs to get some kind of benefit, because #2 has pretty much nothing. 

But the benefit would be the home AND some cash, all equal. Just less cash for #2 than the others. 

[Deleted]

You've gotten some great advice. If I'm reading correctly, it sounds like there are some concerns maybe about #2 being financially responsible enough? I wonder if maybe another option would be to put the property in to the name of all 3, split the cash evenly, but put a large sum in to a new trust for #2 that would pay the bills and upkeep of the condo? Just another thought.

[rosiebear]

I’m sorry for your loss.
The cleanest clean break is to sell the condo and split the proceeds along with the rest of the estate. BIL can get another place to live with his share of the estate.

[mags]

May 22, 2020 11:29:40 GMT -5 rosiebear said:

I’m sorry for your loss.
The cleanest clean break is to sell the condo and split the proceeds along with the rest of the estate. BIL can get another place to live with his share of the estate.

Agreed, no need to take over as an enabler for #2. He can take his money and buy his own place, or rent whichever he prefers. He will not get a job if his rent is paid, and #1 and3 will continue to enable him and be a forever headache. 

I understand totally, your #2 is my #3!!!

[livinitup]

In any of these scenarios, who is going to own the condo? I am getting the impression that it won't be #2. Is there a reason for that? You mentioned that he will be living there "rent-free". I don't really consider a home owner living in their own home, living "rent-free" just because the mortgage is paid off.

For a variety of reasons, I would not want to have the legal liability of a condo with two other owners for years and years. Even as an asset, under the BEST of circumstances with dedicated partners, it's risky. Repairs, upgrades, taxes, insurance. You are all responsible for it, even if he "agrees" to pay for it and supervise all repairs and purchases. Its really messy.

Why wouldn't he just use his 1/3 estate (cash) to buy-out #1 and #3's 2/3 share of the condo? Then he owns it and the condo can appreciate or depreciate in value. He can live there, sell it, or rent out a room.

Does he need some kind of supervision? I am getting the feeling that his mom and maybe brothers don't think he should have the responsibility of running things on his own? Maybe he'll make bad decisions?

Could you shed some light?

[icedcoffee]

I would absolutely spit the estate evenly right now and not hold onto 1/3 of an asset you don’t need. There are so many ways that can go wrong.

[icedcoffee]

Is there a reason you don’t want to sell the condo and have #2 rent a place? Homeownership is not risk free.

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 11:20:15 GMT -5 melmel48 said:

I am sorry for your loss. 

Thank you so much for this, too. Forgot to say that. 

[farmvillelover]

May 22, 2020 11:09:58 GMT -5 krystee said:

I would split evenly three ways (cash for 1 and 3, property and less cash for 2) and be done with it. Clean break, and no opportunity for bitterness or resentment or messiness later.

This is what I would do, and I work in this area.  I'd probably have the condo go into a trust for #2 and have 1 & 3 be trustees to control/protect the property given #2's previous substance issues, which would require 2's consent and cooperation of course. They could all agree that at the end of the 2's life, the property would go to whoever they agree on.  The trust could provide that 2 would pay all associated costs for the property (taxes, insurance, utilities, repairs etc) and what the consequence would be if he failed to do that.  If it's sold, then the proceeds would be for 2 to use/spend as he pleases. 

I don't like co-ownership of real estate among siblings, personally. Someone always get stiffed somehow, IME.

I'm sorry for your loss.

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 11:29:40 GMT -5 rosiebear said:

I’m sorry for your loss.
The cleanest clean break is to sell the condo and split the proceeds along with the rest of the estate. BIL can get another place to live with his share of the estate.

Thank you so much for the kind words. 

And yes, I agree with this. But #1 is pretty convinced my MIL wanted #2 to keep living there (though that's not wise, IMO, and it's not written anywhere), and #1 kind of calls the shots, which is part of why this is all complicated. 

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 12:11:41 GMT -5 livinitup said:

In any of these scenarios, who is going to own the condo? I am getting the impression that it won't be #2. Is there a reason for that? You mentioned that he will be living there "rent-free". I don't really consider a home owner living in their own home, living "rent-free" just because the mortgage is paid off.

For a variety of reasons, I would not want to have the legal liability of a condo with two other owners for years and years. Even as an asset, under the BEST of circumstances with dedicated partners, it's risky. Repairs, upgrades, taxes, insurance. You are all responsible for it, even if he "agrees" to pay for it and supervise all repairs and purchases. Its really messy.

Why wouldn't he just use his 1/3 estate (cash) to buy-out #1 and #3's 2/3 share of the condo? Then he owns it and the condo can appreciate or depreciate in value. He can live there, sell it, or rent out a room.

Does he need some kind of supervision? I am getting the feeling that his mom and maybe brothers don't think he should have the responsibility of running things on his own? Maybe he'll make bad decisions?

Could you shed some light?

I was posting to vent and ask which type of attorney or financial advisor might be helpful, rather than to solicit ideas, but long story short, *poof*

May 22, 2020 12:16:31 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Is there a reason you don’t want to sell the condo and have #2 rent a place? Homeownership is not risk free.

It's not me - I'm not involved in the decision-making - but *poof*

It's all extremely complicated, which is why I'd like someone unbiased and experienced in sticky situations like this to help the trio make a good decision. 


mags

I appreciate the opportunity to vent. I agree with a lot of the points made here, but it's not my decision and my real question was about who can help with unbiased advice. I think the elder/estate law angle is correct and am all but begging my husband to insist they get some professional advice. 

I agree with everyone about the enablement *poof* It's so complicated. Anyone who has nothing like this in her family should thank her lucky stars. 

I'm going to delete some stuff now because it feels icky to have this all hanging out there. Thanks for all the thoughts and opinions! 

[dochas]

Has 2 ever said what he wants? I would not want to hold the condo. I would e,ither sell now if he doesn't want to live there and add the proceeds to the rest of the estate and split 3 ways. Or, ask him if he wants to keep it and explain it's all still going to be split 3 ways and the bulk of his share is the condo and he will have to pay all fees associated with living in and owning it.

I would not give him extra now. I would look at the worst case scenario, which is he makes no changes and blows through whatever cash he gets and the equity in the condo. That's when 1 & 3 can start providing the extra they think he should be getting now.

What I would do personally is push for the sale of the condo and 3 way split. As long as he's in his Mother's condo he is always going to be someone else's problem. It will be much easier for him to constantly be looking for a bailout when he can guilt his brothers by saying he doesn't want to lose it for sentimental reasons, and it's all he has.

ETA - I would have a long talk with your husband and have him get an understanding of what he wants the outcome to be before meeting with someone. If #1 is so certain, it will be easy for your husband to get steamrolled. He should have just as much say in what happens, and shouldn't end up locked into joint ownership because #1 has a stronger voice. I'm sure the loss is already hard enough on all of you.

[MixedBerryJam]

May 22, 2020 11:05:04 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

May 22, 2020 11:01:28 GMT -5 @kar said:

Is there enough money to pay off the mortgage and then split the value of the estate evenly 3 ways - 1 & 3 get cash, 2 gets property + cash? If so, that’s what I’d do.

Yes, there is. 

This is what I’d do too but also once it’s paid offf I’d be sure to have the condo only in #2 name so they and only they are responsible for taxes so that if they don’t pay them the others are not responsible. I might be over blowing the substance abuse comment earlier tho.

OP I’m sorry for your loss.

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 12:56:23 GMT -5 dochas said:

I would not give him extra now. I would look at the worst case scenario, which is he makes no changes and blows through whatever cash he gets and the equity in the condo. That's when 1 & 3 can start providing the extra they think he should be getting now.



ETA - I would have a long talk with your husband and have him get an understanding of what he wants the outcome to be before meeting with someone. If #1 is so certain, it will be easy for your husband to get steamrolled. He should have just as much say in what happens, and shouldn't end up locked into joint ownership because #1 has a stronger voice. I'm sure the loss is already hard enough on all of you.

I chopped up your quote. To answer a question no longer shown, #2 is very emotional right now and doesn't want anything to change. I don't think there has been a serious discussion of the long term and implications of the current arrangement. 

I am very much in agreement with your point above. I said as much to my husband yesterday. I do think he agrees, but #1 is very much the leader and #3 doesn't like disagreeing with #1. (I will probably be back to delete this shortly!) I feel like #1's vote always counts twice, you know? #3 is also concerned, for better or worse, about looking like the asshole. I don't think he would admit this, but I swear it's true. 


So true. I really hate that there is money involved, because it complicates things. Frankly, what I would love is to walk away from our piece of this but also be free of any responsibility for the others in the future. But I know that's not happening. 

[livinitup]

Pilsy, You *poofed* before I read it. I needed more than 11 minutes to catch it!

Oh well, I shouldn't have asked since you were just looking for a bit of a vent and the type of professional. I guess I was digging a bit more into the root of the problem. It actually sounds like you need family mediation to resolve what everyone wants/needs. My sister is actually a family/estate attorney and a certified mediator, so they are out there. Bet that's not going to happen.

Good luck anyway, seems messy.

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 12:34:21 GMT -5 farmvillelover said:

May 22, 2020 11:09:58 GMT -5 krystee said:

I would split evenly three ways (cash for 1 and 3, property and less cash for 2) and be done with it. Clean break, and no opportunity for bitterness or resentment or messiness later.

This is what I would do, and I work in this area.  I'd probably have the condo go into a trust for #2 and have 1 & 3 be trustees to control/protect the property given #2's previous substance issues, which would require 2's consent and cooperation of course. They could all agree that at the end of the 2's life, the property would go to whoever they agree on.  The trust could provide that 2 would pay all associated costs for the property (taxes, insurance, utilities, repairs etc) and what the consequence would be if he failed to do that.  If it's sold, then the proceeds would be for 2 to use/spend as he pleases. 

I don't like co-ownership of real estate among siblings, personally. Someone always get stiffed somehow, IME.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you for weighing in. I didn't think to tag you, but I see someone else did. I appreciate the advice and condolences, truly. 

And thank you, too, MixedBerryJam. 

[Pilsy]

May 22, 2020 13:10:55 GMT -5 livinitup said:

Pilsy , You *poofed* before I read it. I needed more than 11 minutes to catch it!

Oh well, I shouldn't have asked since you were just looking for a bit of a vent and the type of professional. I guess I was digging a bit more into the root of the problem. It actually sounds like you need family mediation to resolve what everyone wants/needs. My sister is actually a family/estate attorney and a certified mediator, so they are out there. Bet that's not going to happen.

Good luck anyway, seems messy.

Sorry! I'm paranoid. 

Let me try this again. And it's ok to ask! I didn't mean what I said in a snarky way. I am just trying to keep myself from going in circles or down the rabbit hole. lol

*poof*

I will leave this for a bit and hope you can see it! Thank you!!