Worth it to add a 4th bedroom?

[froggy76]

I've posted here before about my whole house renovation - we are still slogging through the initial design phase. Would love some thoughts about expanding the scope of our project to add a 4th bedroom or new master suite:

The focus of our project is the 1st floor reno + exterior, but we also asked for options to improve our tiny master bedroom. The feedback we're getting from the design-build company is that there's no cheap fix to expand our master bedroom, and it makes more sense to add a whole new master suite. That would make our house a 4br/3.5ba house instead of 3br/2.5ba. 

We've already blown our budget with the 1st floor and exterior so we should probably just stop there, but I can't stop wondering if it would be the right thing to do to put more money into the renovation and get a new master suite. Our current bedroom is about 10x12 and really tight. We're also in an upscale area and 4 bedroom homes are common.

The master bedroom addition would be $125k. Adding just a 4th bedroom without a bathroom would be around $90k. We could definitely use a 4th bedroom for guests, but we don't NEED it. With the 1st floor reno, we're adding a new family room, which allows us to shuffle around the rest of the 1st floor and gain a 10x10 office, which means we'll have an "extra" room in the house that we don't have now. I'm hoping to be able to squeeze guests in there, when needed.

Here are pictures of what the house will looks like now, vs with the 1-story family room addition, or the 2-story addition with a 4th bedroom above.



Here's the link to my last post: pandce.proboards.com/thread/621250/home-renovation-plans-critique

[Susie]

Does your existing small master bedroom have an en suite bath?

I would not go from a 3/2.5 to a 4/2.5, adding a 4th bedroom without a bathroom and call that a master, even if it's spacious.  I would consider a spacious master without a bath to be a step backward from a small master with an en suite bath.  There's nothing wrong with having a 4/2.5, but it doesn't sound like you need a 4th bedroom, so it doesn't like like good value for you.  I'd pass on the master addition rather than do this, and instead spend the money on great storage furniture and solutions and other things that make me happy.

Going from a 3/2.5 to a 4/3.5 with a new master suite would be nice, certainly.  And it sounds like it would be ok for your neighborhood.  Only you can answer whether it would be $125k nice for you, and therefore worth it.  It probably wouldn't be for me, if I didn't otherwise need the square footage.  But YMMV.

We have a 4/1.5, and are planning a master suite addition to make it a 5/2.5, probably in about 2 years.  But we need all of it -- we need a second full bath, we need another bedroom, and we also need more square footage, so it doesn't feel like a complicated decision.  We are using all 4 bedrooms now (ours, my dad for long term visits, and two kid bedrooms), and we need a 5th so we can have an office area for WFH; we lost our office when it became DS's room last year.  Our current bedroom, smallish and without en suite bath, will become our shared office when we have a new master suite.

[nicolewi]

That's a lot of money, but 10x12 is really tight. If you can swing it, I would do the master suite with bath. It sounds like it could be important for resale in your area if you ever sell. Is that right? Can they give any estimate on what that would do to your possible future sale price/home value?

Again, totally regional, but I expect that if you are in an upscale area with 4 bedroom homes common, a 10x12 master would be a detriment to selling. 

[penguingrrl]

I would definitely add a suite if you can afford to. We got a great deal on our house (also a 3 bed/2 bath in an upscale area) because it sat for 5 months and buyers turned it down for not having a master suite. And your master sounds very small, which is also a factor. I think this is one of those things that if you can swing it will raise the value of your home by more than the cost of doing the work. I’ve been considering adding a master suite over our family room (which was converted from a garage a few decades before we bought) both for our use and because of how much it will increase the value of our house.

[froggy76]

Susie, nicolewi, penguingrrl, I should have mentioned that we don't intend to sell... ever. But who knows? I still feel like we should consider resale and it's bothering me that we're going to do this big renovation and then potentially still have this tiny 10x12 master bedroom in an otherwise great house.

We do currently have an en suite. The other bedrooms are good sizes, but the master bathroom was clearly a later addition and fit best next to the tiniest bedroom. Susie, I think you're probably right that it doesn't make sense to add the 4th bedroom without a bathroom.

We have cash for the renovation without the master suite addition, but would probably need to finance that if we did it. Also, we would definitely have put way more into the house than it's worth. With that, we'd be at about $950k invested in the house and maybe it would be worth $800k? Just guessing. But again, we're not looking to sell.

[nicolewi]

Ugh, I don't know. I would want a nicer master. Would it bother you not to do it? If you are going to do it, NOW IS THE TIME. We did a big reno (not as big as yours, though) and put some things off to do "later," and we still haven't done any of them since.

Is there a cheaper way to add a bath to one of the existing larger bedrooms rather than adding a new master suite? I doubt it...just thinking about possible options.

[cosmowife]

While $125,000 is a shit ton of money, it probably wouldn’t add too much to your monthly payment, assuming you are financing. If you are not financing and paying cash, then it might be harder to swing. However, I definitely would not add an extra bedroom without a bath. That doesn’t seem worth it.

[penguingrrl]

Oct 19, 2020 15:57:58 GMT -5 froggy76 said:

Susie, nicolewi, penguingrrl, I should have mentioned that we don't intend to sell... ever. But who knows? I still feel like we should consider resale and it's bothering me that we're going to do this big renovation and then potentially still have this tiny 10x12 master bedroom in an otherwise great house.

We do currently have an en suite. The other bedrooms are good sizes, but the master bathroom was clearly a later addition and fit best next to the tiniest bedroom. Susie, I think you're probably right that it doesn't make sense to add the 4th bedroom without a bathroom.

We have cash for the renovation without the master suite addition, but would probably need to finance that if we did it. Also, we would definitely have put way more into the house than it's worth. With that, we'd be at about $950k invested in the house and maybe it would be worth $800k? Just guessing. But again, we're not looking to sell.

So, when I’m “considering resale” it’s on the assumption that my kids sell my house when H and I are gone. We plan to remain in our house forever. We plan to welcome grandkids to holidays here and grow old here, it’s never been a question. But someday in the future it will be sold, hopefully by our estate, unless my kids want to live in this house (which I doubt).

It also, though, is a backup in case of a huge unexpected change. I have a cousin who built her dream house in her home town to raise her kids in. Moving was never a consideration for a second. Twenty years after building her husband was laid off and they ended up moving across the country due to the new job he got. They never ever expected to leave their home town.

[nicolewi]

Well, maybe even more important to do it, then, if you don't plan to sell? Do you want to be in a tiny master forever as you welcome grandkids, host holidays, etc? I still vote to do it if you can swing it. Then you can enjoy it for many years to come.

[froggy76]

Oct 19, 2020 17:41:49 GMT -5 nicolewi said:

Ugh, I don't know. I would want a nicer master. Would it bother you not to do it? If you are going to do it, NOW IS THE TIME. We did a big reno (not as big as yours, though) and put some things off to do "later," and we still haven't done any of them since.

Is there a cheaper way to add a bath to one of the existing larger bedrooms rather than adding a new master suite? I doubt it...just thinking about possible options.

Agree- I think it's now or never. It will probably bother us a bit not to do it because our room is just so tiny that we're always tripping over the bed or the dog. But spending all that money will bother me too!

My daughter's room is about 13x18 with a nice closet and we could add a bathroom there, but when all is said and done I think the room would end up being about the same size as our current room.

[froggy76]

Thanks all for the feedback! For resale, it would open up a new pool of buyers to have 4 bedrooms vs 3, but I'm still not sure we'd ever be able to recoup the cost of the addition. But for keeping the house long-term, I agree it would be great to really make it what we want. I'd also love for my house to be THE house where there's plenty of room for friends and family to stay, especially since my siblings have moved away and my parents (nearby) have downsized. And the point about grandkids is a good one too

Our other option would be to expand the existing master suite for $70k, but at that cost I think I'd rather spend another $55k and get a whole new master suite and then just leave our current one for guests.

With these costs it would really just make sense to move to a bigger house, but we're so attached to our house and property that we're spending an irrational amount of money to improve it.

[dr.girlfriend]

I'm probably the wrong one to ask...we spent $200k to add a (giant!) master suite to our 2-bedroom house. :-) We way over-improved it for the neighborhood, but we plan to stay here forever, and our choices reflect that -- $40k of that was for solar panels on all the roofs. Like you said, plans change, but as long as you're not going underwater, I have to say we loooooove our new space. And no one saw COVID coming, but having an amazing place to hang out in every day is pretty key right now. My only hesitation is that ours was ground-floor, and we took a lot of pains to make it accessible -- doorways wide enough for wheelchairs, three grab bars in the master bath, etc. I would worry a little about having it all upstairs. That said, if you have the money do it. I'm trying to imagine dropping that much money on a house with a tiny master bedroom and I guess it all depends on your area but I think it would be tough :-) To enable here's our new space. We added a huge master suite, but also a laundry room and expanded our living room six feet to enclose what used to be a porch and allowed for a circular traffic flow so all the downstairs traffic doesn't go through our kitchen.





I guess it would be different if we had a financial downturn and needed that cash or something, but I've never regretted any of our home improvements so far.  It's like a little gift you get every day.  We redid our kitchen 8 years ago and I still get a little thrill every time I walk into it, lol.  

[froggy76]

dr.girlfriend, your master suite is beautiful! Ours would not be quite as luxurious, but still a huge improvement over what we have now. We live on the Main Line, so there are all varieties of big and small houses and plenty with weird quirks, but I do think the small master would make our house a tough sell.

I do worry about having all the bedrooms upstairs (not just for us in our old age, but also in case we ever need to take in an elderly parent), but we will also have plenty of room downstairs to convert a room into a bedroom if we need to.

[sandandsea]

If you can afford it I’d go for it. Hands down.

[froggy76]

Clearly, I should have posted this question on MM instead lol! I was leaning against it and am now not sure. If we put off the project for another year (which we may do anyway due to COVID), we could save some more and then just finance a portion of the cost of the master suite addition.

[dr.girlfriend]

Oct 20, 2020 9:02:18 GMT -5 froggy76 said:

dr.girlfriend , your master suite is beautiful! Ours would not be quite as luxurious, but still a huge improvement over what we have now. We live on the Main Line, so there are all varieties of big and small houses and plenty with weird quirks, but I do think the small master would make our house a tough sell.

I do worry about having all the bedrooms upstairs (not just for us in our old age, but also in case we ever need to take in an elderly parent), but we will also have plenty of room downstairs to convert a room into a bedroom if we need to.

Oh, thanks, the Main Line context does help, but even so...I can't imagine spending close to a million dollars on a house with a cramped master bedroom.  I say go for it, and then at worst you can install a stair lift or exterior elevator if needed for your elder years.  :-)  Might be worth asking your architect to keep that in mind in their design?  I would also think about having washer/dryer upstairs if you haven't already to minimize the amount of carrying of stuff up and down you have to do.  I have a tricky knee and I'm fine with stairs in general, but if I have a laundry basket all bets are off, because not only can I not hold the rail but I also can't see my feet, so I've come close to falling several times.

[Deleted]

So, my Mom's house has 4 large bedrooms, all on the second floor. They ended up putting in an elevator so that they can age in place. My grandfather was staying with them, and it made sense to add it for him as well as for themselves when the time comes. Even if you don't have the actually elevator added now, you could have the shaft framed out as part of your reno.

[aprilsails]

I just went back to your original post and saw the layout where you expand your current bedroom to the right and add different closets and windows. That would not involve any bathroom upgrades but would make a difference. What is the pricing for that renovation? It makes more sense to me since I don’t see the need for the additional bathroom as you already have one, but I also wouldn’t want to have a master bathroom without an en-suite. So I would either say do the expansion, or go whole-hog.

We built our new house with 4 bedrooms so that I could have an extra sewing room/office. When we were building two years ago it was very much a want, but now that I am WFH it is an absolute need. We had the option of only doing three larger rooms (on the plans) for $30k less but we knew we would never go back and add a room later. I agree that you will not make any changes unless you do it now considering the amount of exterior modifications it would require.

[froggy76]

Oct 21, 2020 10:40:39 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

I just went back to your original post and saw the layout where you expand your current bedroom to the right and add different closets and windows. That would not involve any bathroom upgrades but would make a difference. What is the pricing for that renovation? It makes more sense to me since I don’t see the need for the additional bathroom as you already have one, but I also wouldn’t want to have a master bathroom without an en-suite. So I would either say do the expansion, or go whole-hog.

We built our new house with 4 bedrooms so that I could have an extra sewing room/office. When we were building two years ago it was very much a want, but now that I am WFH it is an absolute need. We had the option of only doing three larger rooms (on the plans) for $30k less but we knew we would never go back and add a room later. I agree that you will not make any changes unless you do it now considering the amount of exterior modifications it would require.

To expand our existing master bedroom would be about $70k. So a very substantial cost, but still $55k less than the master suite addition. It would make the master a really nice little suite. Nothing extravagant but a good size (plus our current bathroom is already nice enough for me!)

We will have a 10x10 office downstairs - definitely agree that feels like such a need these days! I'm actually working in my 10x12 master bedroom as well and it's awful. I can't wait to have an office on the 1st floor. So I don't need a 4th bedroom for that but we could always use more space for guests.

[aprilsails]

So to be clear the options are:

1. Do nothing;
2. Master bedroom expansion at $70k;
3. Add 4th mega bedroom. Make existing large bedroom smaller. Add upstairs laundry at $90k;
4. Add new master bedroom with en-suite. Make existing large bedroom smaller. Add upstairs laundry at $125k.

I’m assuming you are in a HCOL area right? Those prices all seem really high to me, although I respect that they would all involve new roofs, exterior walls, windows, etc.

Out of curiosity what is your basement situation like? I ask since in my area most 4th bedrooms and extra bathrooms are added through basement renovations. If I was a buyer who needed the 4th bedroom, that is likely how I would go about doing it, since it is pretty inexpensive for the value.

I’m sorry since I may not be helping here but more so I’m just ruminating, which I’m sure you’ve been doing for months!

[froggy76]

Oct 21, 2020 11:35:39 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

So to be clear the options are:

1. Do nothing;
2. Master bedroom expansion at $70k;
3. Add 4th mega bedroom. Make existing large bedroom smaller. Add upstairs laundry at $90k;
4. Add new master bedroom with en-suite. Make existing large bedroom smaller. Add upstairs laundry at $125k.

I’m assuming you are in a HCOL area right? Those prices all seem really high to me, although I respect that they would all involve new roofs, exterior walls, windows, etc.

Out of curiosity what is your basement situation like? I ask since in my area most 4th bedrooms and extra bathrooms are added through basement renovations. If I was a buyer who needed the 4th bedroom, that is likely how I would go about doing it, since it is pretty inexpensive for the value.

I’m sorry since I may not be helping here but more so I’m just ruminating, which I’m sure you’ve been doing for months!

You've got it! Keep in mind we'll already be at $250k for the renovation between the 1st floor and the exterior. So the options above are all on top of that. The prices are insane. I'm in the Main Line Philadelphia area, so prices are high here, but I also hired a higher-end design build company, and materials costs are through the roof right now.

Our basement is awful- old crumbling stone walls, moisture, no windows, and a very low ceiling. I don't expect to be able to ever do much with it besides storage and maybe some workout space. The laundry is down there right now.

[aprilsails]

This is a hard decision @froggy96. I don’t envy you. However, now that you mention the state of your basement I would want to move the laundry to upstairs more than ever.

So I would just go all in. Do the fourth bedroom, the bathroom and the laundry. I would suggest you might want to reserve a 5’x5’ spot in the extension area that would work both downstairs and upstairs in the expansion to drop in an elevator, but your stairwell could also work for a chair lift too. Our new house has straight stairs which we liked for needing a chair lift someday (assuming we don’t ever ever move which is actually pretty unlikely).

I don’t know what rates are like in the US but right now we can get a Heloc for very little.