Re: childhood vaccines, I thought this thread on Twitter by Dr. Vinay Prasad MD MPH was really interesting. We may not end up vaccinating children.
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I agree very strongly with this.
And yet I've seen some talk online of some groups pushing to not reopen schools until all CHILDREN are vaccinated too. At that point, schools will be all virtual Fall 2022.
If the vast majority of adults who want the vaccine have had the opportunity to get it (which I grant is going to take a lot longer than originally hoped given all of the issues with rollout), then life needs to go back to some semblance of normal. But some people keep shifting the goalposts.
@@@@@ I don’t know if you read his thread, but there’s a possibility the vaccine will not be approved in children as risks (side effects) are likely to outweigh the benefits since nearly all Covid cases are mild.
Re: childhood vaccines, I thought this thread on Twitter by Dr. Vinay Prasad MD MPH was really interesting. We may not end up vaccinating children.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ This post seems like punditry and I don't see much basis to support his view that NOT vaccinating child isn't going keep the pandemic burning, though possibly at a slower rate than it does now. If 70% of adults and 0% of children get vaccinated it seems herd immunity would be impacted given how many people kids interact with in a normal school day (parents, bus drivers, teachers, lunchroom aids etc.)
I also think it is unlikely that 70% of adults get the vaccine by fall which also adds to the challenges of reopening schools even if he is correct. If schools fully open then it gives up one mitigation factor that keeps cases spreading. I believe the US is at ~3.2% vaccinated. If we assume we'll be at 4% by the end of the month and add 4% each following month we're at 32% by September. Unless kids are also vaccinated I don't see how we can fully open schools. Hybrid seems possible, perhaps with bigger cohorts and less spacing. We would have to vaccinate about 9.4% of the country each month for 7 months to get to 70%. Even if you want to cut the goal down to 60% because kids under 16 are not in the eligible pool you still need 8% each month. This is highly unlikely even with the government working more effectively on the issue.
I doubt schools are fully opening in the fall around here. I was going to tell our principal that he should start telling people that he doesn't really know what is happening and help parents understand that hybrid and even virtual is a possibility. He talks a lot about how he hopes everything is normal next year and I see no indication that will be the case.
Re: childhood vaccines, I thought this thread on Twitter by Dr. Vinay Prasad MD MPH was really interesting. We may not end up vaccinating children.
Oh god. Not Dr Prasad. I use to really respect him, listen to his podcast, etc. but he has gone off the rails for covid, and other doctors are starting to call him out on it. A couple examples below. And he is not winning himself any friends at the oncology society, either.
eta: one more Dr Prasad-ism. If you start listening to him too much, you’ll argue with your doctor that you don’t need a mammogram. He has some points, it’s true they don’t show an effect on all cause mortality, it just increases 5-year survival. But, not a great look in the cancer world.
Re: childhood vaccines, I thought this thread on Twitter by Dr. Vinay Prasad MD MPH was really interesting. We may not end up vaccinating children.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ This post seems like punditry and I don't see much basis to support his view that NOT vaccinating child isn't going keep the pandemic burning, though possibly at a slower rate than it does now. If 70% of adults and 0% of children get vaccinated it seems herd immunity would be impacted given how many people kids interact with in a normal school day (parents, bus drivers, teachers, lunchroom aids etc.)
I also think it is unlikely that 70% of adults get the vaccine by fall which also adds to the challenges of reopening schools even if he is correct. If schools fully open then it gives up one mitigation factor that keeps cases spreading. I believe the US is at ~3.2% vaccinated. If we assume we'll be at 4% by the end of the month and add 4% each following month we're at 32% by September. Unless kids are also vaccinated I don't see how we can fully open schools. Hybrid seems possible, perhaps with bigger cohorts and less spacing. We would have to vaccinate about 9.4% of the country each month for 7 months to get to 70%. Even if you want to cut the goal down to 60% because kids under 16 are not in the eligible pool you still need 8% each month. This is highly unlikely even with the government working more effectively on the issue.
I doubt schools are fully opening in the fall around here. I was going to tell our principal that he should start telling people that he doesn't really know what is happening and help parents understand that hybrid and even virtual is a possibility. He talks a lot about how he hopes everything is normal next year and I see no indication that will be the case.
@@@@@@ Again, some of us have had fully open schools this entire year. Whether one agrees or disagrees with in-person schooling, I don't understand "not seeing how" schools can fully open again before vaccinating children.
@@@@@@ Again, some of us have had fully open schools this entire year. Whether one agrees or disagrees with in-person schooling, I don't understand "not seeing how" schools can fully open again before vaccinating children.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Sure I'll revise my argument to be I don't believe that areas with schools closed *now* will be open in the fall because the labor and health issues will remain a concern. Around here only public elementary are open and only in a hybrid format. Private schools are a mix but these schools often have resources not available to publics.
If schools are open now during the peak the crisis then I agree those schools will likely be open in fall.
I think there is going to be close to zero tolerance for anything but schools back in school full time in fall 2021. I think even the most ardent, understanding families will be absolutely irate if it can't be figured out by then. It will be so damaging to public schools that I can't even imagine it being an option. Virtual school should remain an option for families who want it.
Biden administration has their hands full for sure.
@@@@@@ Again, some of us have had fully open schools this entire year. Whether one agrees or disagrees with in-person schooling, I don't understand "not seeing how" schools can fully open again before vaccinating children.
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We also don't know the long term effects of covid in children. Having fully open schools means absolutely nothing. Other than people don't want to think that they're doing permanent damage to children just because they get "mild symptoms".
@@@@@@ Again, some of us have had fully open schools this entire year. Whether one agrees or disagrees with in-person schooling, I don't understand "not seeing how" schools can fully open again before vaccinating children.
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We also don't know the long term effects of covid in children. Having fully open schools means absolutely nothing. Other than people don't want to think that they're doing permanent damage to children just because they get "mild symptoms".
This is my concern. With the amount of weird post-covid complications adults are having I can only wonder what is happening in kids.
@@@@@@ Again, some of us have had fully open schools this entire year. Whether one agrees or disagrees with in-person schooling, I don't understand "not seeing how" schools can fully open again before vaccinating children.
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We also don't know the long term effects of covid in children. Having fully open schools means absolutely nothing. Other than people don't want to think that they're doing permanent damage to children just because they get "mild symptoms".
@@@@@@@ I understand this, I do. But I have also seen what virtual (as the only option) schools have done to a good number of students mentally/socially/emotionally. Those effects are 100% absolutely real, as well.
Having the option of in-person school actually does mean a great deal to a lot of families and students.
@@@@@@ Again, some of us have had fully open schools this entire year. Whether one agrees or disagrees with in-person schooling, I don't understand "not seeing how" schools can fully open again before vaccinating children.
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We also don't know the long term effects of covid in children. Having fully open schools means absolutely nothing. Other than people don't want to think that they're doing permanent damage to children just because they get "mild symptoms".
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Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but this seems like you’re shaming parents who will send their kids back to school full time in the fall. And I get the hesitation and the fear, and I would respect anyone’s choice to school how they see fit, but hopefully by the fall we’ll have some actual data to determine the risk/reward benefit of returning to school. I can tell you now that having another year of this is going to be incredibly damaging to students in other ways.
I think there is going to be close to zero tolerance for anything but schools back in school full time in fall 2021. I think even the most ardent, understanding families will be absolutely irate if it can't be figured out by then. It will be so damaging to public schools that I can't even imagine it being an option. Virtual school should remain an option for families who want it.
Biden administration has their hands full for sure.
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Yes, this. Our county has been 100% virtual this year and I imagine that will be the case through the end of the school year. Parents have tolerated it fairly well. I honestly don't see much complaining. I just don't think they would tolerate it again in the fall. Teachers are being vaccinated in round 1 so by September most will have been vaccinated for close to 6 months and I think those who would like to send their children in person won't tolerate not having the option to do so.
A vaccine for kids could be years off if it even happens at all. Precautions should be taken where possible--masks, distancing if possible, etc. but I think once teachers are vaccinated we need to give people the option to send their kids in the fall.
We also don't know the long term effects of covid in children. Having fully open schools means absolutely nothing. Other than people don't want to think that they're doing permanent damage to children just because they get "mild symptoms".
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Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but this seems like you’re shaming parents who will send their kids back to school full time in the fall. And I get the hesitation and the fear, and I would respect anyone’s choice to school how they see fit, but hopefully by the fall we’ll have some actual data to determine the risk/reward benefit of returning to school. I can tell you now that having another year of this is going to be incredibly damaging to students in other ways.
I'm moving all these posts to a new post. So we can have yet another thousand page thread about the exact same argument we've been having including whether or not bringing up real implications of post covid exposure is shaming parents.
Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but this seems like you’re shaming parents who will send their kids back to school full time in the fall. And I get the hesitation and the fear, and I would respect anyone’s choice to school how they see fit, but hopefully by the fall we’ll have some actual data to determine the risk/reward benefit of returning to school. I can tell you now that having another year of this is going to be incredibly damaging to students in other ways.
I'm moving all these posts to a new post. So we can have yet another thousand page thread about the exact same argument we've been having including whether or not bringing up real implications of post covid exposure is shaming parents.
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Would you agree that there are real implications of closed (virtual only) schools? Socially/emotionally/physically/mentally?
Now that there's a new thread - I'm not shaming anything. However, these conversations have tended to devolve into 1) Send them all to school because of xyz, and 2) keep them all home because xyz and if you don't like one argument you are automatically seen as shaming the other side. Y'know what? There are a thousand different shitty sides to this debate and we can talk about them all. You know what else NO ONE WINS! There is no winning in this shitty game.
Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but this seems like you’re shaming parents who will send their kids back to school full time in the fall. And I get the hesitation and the fear, and I would respect anyone’s choice to school how they see fit, but hopefully by the fall we’ll have some actual data to determine the risk/reward benefit of returning to school. I can tell you now that having another year of this is going to be incredibly damaging to students in other ways.
I'm moving all these posts to a new post. So we can have yet another thousand page thread about the exact same argument we've been having including whether or not bringing up real implications of post covid exposure is shaming parents.
I don’t think bringing up any data you may have found of post-Covid infections in children is shaming, but telling parents (some of whom you know are sending their children to school) that they just don’t want to think about it does sound like shaming.
Now that there's a new thread - I'm not shaming anything. However, these conversations have tended to devolve into 1) Send them all to school because of xyz, and 2) keep them all home because xyz and if you don't like one argument you are automatically seen as shaming the other side. Y'know what? There are a thousand different shitty sides to this debate and we can talk about them all. You know what else NO ONE WINS! There is no winning in this shitty game.
I agree with this. But saying that having schools open "means nothing" has truly not been my experience.
I'm moving all these posts to a new post. So we can have yet another thousand page thread about the exact same argument we've been having including whether or not bringing up real implications of post covid exposure is shaming parents.
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Would you agree that there are real implications of closed (virtual only) schools? Socially/emotionally/physically/mentally?
You don't have to @ individual posts. Yes, I would. Would you also agree that long term illness or side effects from illness can also cause social/emotional/physical/and mental stress?
Post by icedcoffee on Jan 19, 2021 15:20:57 GMT -5
Is there not a 3rd option where those who want to send their kids can and those that don't can continue to do virtual (either through their current school or another program)?
I'll agree that there is no winning though. Parents and kids will continue to second guess their decision no matter what they decide.
Now that there's a new thread - I'm not shaming anything. However, these conversations have tended to devolve into 1) Send them all to school because of xyz, and 2) keep them all home because xyz and if you don't like one argument you are automatically seen as shaming the other side. Y'know what? There are a thousand different shitty sides to this debate and we can talk about them all. You know what else NO ONE WINS! There is no winning in this shitty game.
I agree with this. But saying that having schools open "means nothing" has truly not been my experience.
In the context, it actually means nothing as far as covid transmission and covid long term effects on children goes. Your schools are open. You have no idea what that actually means in the long term. Short term, sure everything looks great.
Is there not a 3rd option where those who want to send their kids can and those that don't can continue to do virtual (either through their current school or another program)?
I'll agree that there is no winning though. Parents and kids will continue to second guess their decision no matter what they decide.
Realistically, no. We're seeing an abject failure of the public education system on all levels. The influx of homeschool choices is yet unknown as far as education goes.
Would you agree that there are real implications of closed (virtual only) schools? Socially/emotionally/physically/mentally?
You don't have to @ individual posts. Yes, I would. Would you also agree that long term illness or side effects from illness can also cause social/emotional/physical/and mental stress?
My apologies as I don't post about kids often.
Of course I would. However, living in this world daily shows me one is happening right now, in a great number of children right in front of our eyes, and IMO if we ignore that we are failing our students.
The twitter doctor seems a bit off his rocker TBH. Vaccinating kids would be ideal.
Although, I'm not saying all kids have to be vaccinated to have school. We've been doing hybrid with no outbreaks, and if community numbers get bad we shut down to remote. My nephews have been going the whole time full time, but did shut down when there was a spike. Again, no outbreaks at their school. In my state, only 4 schools are listed as having an outbreak out of thousands of schools. Maybe this changes with mutations, but as of now with social distancing and universal masking- it has been a lot safer than other places.
Hopefully by September there will be lots more studies on kids both for vaccinating them, and also for long term effects of Covid on them, so that everyone can make more informed decisions.
I think there are a lot of differences all across the nation and the world on how schools are handling this. Large school district with tons of students may find it harder to open their buildings, and that is why some schools are saying they cannot open until everyone is vaccinated including kids. Politics and teacher unions might come into play as well. Smaller districts with more resources or private schools have found opening to be easier, causing greater inequities among students.
ETA- I feel like in my community everyone went hard at it all over the place in late summer/ early fall. Now, everyone seems to be more like OK hybrid is working and safe, and remote is fine to, so you do you. If teachers were getting ill from school, it would be a different story. But they are getting ill from going to large gatherings unmasked outside of school.
I agree with this. But saying that having schools open "means nothing" has truly not been my experience.
In the context, it actually means nothing as far as covid transmission and covid long term effects on children goes. Your schools are open. You have no idea what that actually means in the long term. Short term, sure everything looks great.
Do you know what it means long term for the kids struggling because of closed schools? Because that one we CAN see, in real time.
@@@@@@@ I understand this, I do. But I have also seen what virtual (as the only option) schools have done to a good number of students mentally/socially/emotionally. Those effects are 100% absolutely real, as well.
Having the option of in-person school actually does mean a great deal to a lot of families and students.
Not to mention the inequities in education/learning perpetuated on primarily poor/low-income students for over a YEAR.
Anyone posting on this/other online message boards during the day likely has the privilege of being able to make online/distance learning work, somewhat. Even if it's incredibly difficult to manage supervision of online learning and working from home simultaneously. Even if it's far from ideal. But a huge chunk of the country is not in that position.
And in many areas, private schools are open, while public schools are all virtual or hybrid. The equity gap between the wealthy and everyone else continues to widen. (Yes, I realize that private schools often have the resources/funding/capacity to create a more distanced environment, etc).
I acknowledge we don't understand long-term side effects of Covid in kids, but it's still shocking to contemplate low-income/less privileged students losing literally two+ years of real school.
Yet nothing is going to be done when we go back to all in person learning. Those equity gaps are still going to be there and no one will have time to push to change them.
Admittedly, I'm so down in the dumps about all of this right now. If people couldn't take the time to advocate for themselves when it came to their jobs and flexibility to help with the equity for more disadvantaged populations, they're damn sure not going to work help fixing it for kids who don't have a voice of their own. We're just going to slide right on back to where we were and, "thank god the kids are out of my hair."
You don't have to @ individual posts. Yes, I would. Would you also agree that long term illness or side effects from illness can also cause social/emotional/physical/and mental stress?
My apologies as I don't post about kids often.
Of course I would. However, living in this world daily shows me one is happening right now, in a great number of children right in front of our eyes, and IMO if we ignore that we are failing our students.
We've been failing kids. It's just been easier to ignore. Now that the white UMC kids are failing suddenly everyone is concerned.
In my county FB school group, it has devolved into you are a racist if you want to send your kids in person. Going great.
Oh my lord. If only we didn't dig in so hard to our positions and actually took a systemic look for a solution.
Such as, what can we do for kids that are struggling in the virtual environment?
You also can’t just look at it in context of children only. Women are dropping out of the workforce at an insane rate because of virtual school. I know many families who practically broke trying to make two parents work from home work with kids in school. It doesn’t work.
Yet nothing is going to be done when we go back to all in person learning. Those equity gaps are still going to be there and no one will have time to push to change them.
Admittedly, I'm so down in the dumps about all of this right now. If people couldn't take the time to advocate for themselves when it came to their jobs and flexibility to help with the equity for more disadvantaged populations, they're damn sure not going to work help fixing it for kids who don't have a voice of their own. We're just going to slide right on back to where we were and, "thank god the kids are out of my hair."
You're probably correct. So shouldn't we push for the least shitty equity gap possible? Especially if (and I do mean IF), by Fall of 2021, all teachers/educators/school employees have had a chance to get the vaccine?
Because poor/low income students not returning to real school until Fall 2022 is a lot worse than not returning until Fall 2021. I mean, it's literally double the amount of instructional time lost.
I'll see if I can find it, but I read an article recently saying that flexible virtual school is actually more equitable than in person school. Kids are able to complete work as they can, between jobs (for older kids), or odd shift times for working parents. So going hard in the paint saying that virtual school isn't equitable is probably short sighted. We need to look at everything that is happening.