I have a family member who is an elementary teacher that is currently in the "no in-person school till kids are vaccinated" camp. She used to be in the "not until teachers are vaccinated" camp. Before that, she was in the "when case count is under X" camp.
Her stance seems to change whenever we're on the cusp of whatever her previous stance was.
Maybe because she’s scared? Or feels unsupported? Or doesn’t have the resources she needs? Or knows the data is being reported inaccurately?
I think there are many reasons for “shifting goalposts” and until we find out what those are we can’t necessarily say those people are wrong for changing their stance.
I mean, yeah, I get that she's scared. And I think that's valid. But it's hard to take seriously someone who has been vocally "no in-person school until teachers are vaccinated" abruptly and without explanation switch to "no in-person school until all children are vaccinated" literally the day the teacher roll-out starts.
I thought maybe I could add my two cents as an actual real-life teacher, but I'm going to stroke rage with all the what-about bullshit in here.
I'll just say what I've been doing in my work - "Whatever." I'm so used to people who don't even understand education or teaching questioning/judging/making decisions for that I'm getting pretty good at tuning it out.
Hopefully I didn't come off that way. Teachers have had the shit stick in trying to make everything work while trying to keep themselves and their families safe.
You never do, because I know you. I've passed my breaking point in trying to engage on ::::waves hands:::: all the things. They've broken me. Oh well. Good thing I'm a short timer.
I want to roll it into a greater discussion of what was wrong before, how covid made the disparity greater, and how we can fix things without going back to how things weren't working before.
I agree with you on the bolded, 100%
But I don't think a knee-jerk reaction of "welp, things were already fucked equity-wise, so one more year of virtual school won't make a difference either way" is the answer. Not for a disease where children are 0.00%-0.17% of all COVID-19 deaths.
ESPECIALLY when more and more data is coming out that schools, with appropriate precautions in place, are not likely to be sources of spread. And if/when all of the adults working in schools will have had the chance to be protected.
Which is why, I guess, I really want to understand what people's expectations are. If we're waiting for risk to be zero, that is never. going. to. happen. Even if you could magically vaccinate 100% of the people in this country overnight, viruses mutate. We'll likely be dealing with some variant of this virus for a long, long time.
But a response of "things have been inequitable for a long time", while true, is not a reason to not do something/be incredibly concerned about the worsening/increasing inequity now.
Again, who said that? I specifically said, no one was concerned until it effected UMC kids. I didn't say we shouldn't treat them. I'm unconvinced that opening schools is the only way to do so.
Some teachers unions seem to be shifting the goalposts similarly. I hate to sound fatalist, but if public schools do virtual literally an entire other school year, I don't see how they're going to recover from that. Even more wealthy people will pull their kids out and send to private school, etc.
I mean this would not be awful for public schools. They would still be funding the schools with their tax dollars, only now the schools would have less kids to support.
That's not how school funding works in the states I have lived in. It is per pupil. And state revenue will likely be down so it's unlikely they will increase per pupil funding models (that's my guess, I don't have a source).
I'm pretty pro neighborhood schools but this year has broken me. If it isn't full time in person in the fall I'm planning on putting my kids in private school. We are considering it for DD this spring because her mental health has taken such a dive. Hybrid and remote has been epically horrible for my family and I am more than willing to risk potential future unknowns to get through the here and now which I know is definitely terrible.
Again, who said that? I specifically said, no one was concerned until it effected UMC kids. I didn't say we shouldn't treat them. I'm unconvinced that opening schools is the only way to do so.
What, in your mind, is the realistic alternative?
And to be clear, I've never been someone who was pushing for 100% open/normal schools this entire pandemic. I've had concerns about virtual/hybrid learning, as I think most people have, but I've accepted the risk/benefit analysis of needing a different system - temporarily - during a once-a-century pandemic.
But seeing people argue that schools can't/shouldn't reopen this fall - even after ASSuming all teachers and school staff, and elderly people (with the greatest chance of serious illness/dying) will have had a chance to be vaccinated by then - is shocking to me. Because at that point, the risk/benefit/harm analysis will have shifted. And why I'm still waiting for an answer (not from you specifically) about what the appropriate end goal is.
This is where I am. I'm starting to sound like a trumper with my wild and crazy ideas that the vaccine probably prevents at least some transmission, or that I can visit vaccinated people once I'm vaccinated, or that my kids should be in in person school.
Again, who said that? I specifically said, no one was concerned until it effected UMC kids. I didn't say we shouldn't treat them. I'm unconvinced that opening schools is the only way to do so.
What, in your mind, is the realistic alternative?
And to be clear, I've never been someone who was pushing for 100% open/normal schools this entire pandemic. I've had concerns about virtual/hybrid learning, as I think most people have, but I've accepted the risk/benefit analysis of needing a different system - temporarily - during a once-a-century pandemic.
But seeing people argue that schools can't/shouldn't reopen this fall - even after ASSuming all teachers and school staff, and elderly people (with the greatest chance of serious illness/dying) will have had a chance to be vaccinated by then - is shocking to me. Because at that point, the risk/benefit/harm analysis will have shifted. And why I'm still waiting for an answer (not from you specifically) about what the appropriate end goal is.
Jesus christ, no one said that schools shouldn't be open. Everyone is cautioning that there is more at play and we should be cautious in doing so. Stop shifting the argument.
As to the other, no, there is no realistic alternative because no one wants to do the work. We blew up capitalism, and we're climbing right back onto that hamster wheel willingly.
That's not how school funding works in the states I have lived in. It is per pupil. And state revenue will likely be down so it's unlikely they will increase per pupil funding models (that's my guess, I don't have a source).
I'm pretty pro neighborhood schools but this year has broken me. If it isn't full time in person in the fall I'm planning on putting my kids in private school. We are considering it for DD this spring because her mental health has taken such a dive. Hybrid and remote has been epically horrible for my family and I am more than willing to risk potential future unknowns to get through the here and now which I know is definitely terrible.
Yes, and also, the issue goes beyond funding. It's the overall migration of kids whose parents will have the means/ability to pull their kids out of the public schools and send them to a different option, and what happens to the kids and schools that are left behind.
Because I have heard from SO many parents just like you - who have always been firmly committed to their neighborhood public school but are now saying "fuck it, if schools are still virtual this fall, we're doing private, enough."
And as we've discussed on here before, I realize there has always been a moral question re: private/charter schools in terms of privileged people being able to opt out for something "better" - but it's just going to get worse.
Yeah, I'm seeing the people who talk a good game who really can't stick with their principles. But it's always been like this. It's all fun and games until your child is involved, and then white supremacy always rules. I actually have articles about this. (In case anyone missed it, yes THIS is judging.)
Jesus christ, no one said that schools shouldn't be open. Everyone is cautioning that there is more at play and we should be cautious in doing so. Stop shifting the argument.
As to the other, no, there is no realistic alternative because no one wants to do the work. We blew up capitalism, and we're climbing right back onto that hamster wheel willingly.
Are you saying that no one has suggested that schools shouldn't open this fall? Because I've seen plenty examples of that.
I mean, that's part of what we've been discussing on this thread - the sentiment, from some, that maybe we shouldn't resume in-person school until all children are vaccinated as well. Because we don't understand the potential long-term impact of Covid on kids, and kids can still spread it to each other even if the teachers are all vaccinated, etc.
Since I was one of those making the argument, yeah you've been debating the wrong thing. I've tried to tell you that a couple of times.
For the record, I'm ALL FOR opening back up when all staff has been fully vaccinated.
To do otherwise is foolish and disrespectful to a profession that has been shit on enough already.
Do you know how many teachers at your school want the vaccine vs. don’t want it?
I asked our principal at the PTO meeting the other night about the vaccine and she said it’s not mandatory. I wonder how many teachers will not want it, and what does that mean for reopening schools?
Post by Poeticxpassion on Jan 19, 2021 17:33:03 GMT -5
Also, I was told we are currently down 37 kids in a school of about 400. That translates to losing one office position, our full time art, music and PE, and several other teaching positions next year. The principal just doesn’t know what grade the teachers she will have to lay off will come from. So now we have 1 office person doing the job of two.
Yes, and also, the issue goes beyond funding. It's the overall migration of kids whose parents will have the means/ability to pull their kids out of the public schools and send them to a different option, and what happens to the kids and schools that are left behind.
Because I have heard from SO many parents just like you - who have always been firmly committed to their neighborhood public school but are now saying "fuck it, if schools are still virtual this fall, we're doing private, enough."
And as we've discussed on here before, I realize there has always been a moral question re: private/charter schools in terms of privileged people being able to opt out for something "better" - but it's just going to get worse.
Yeah, I'm seeing the people who talk a good game who really can't stick with their principles. But it's always been like this. It's all fun and games until your child is involved, and then white supremacy always rules. I actually have articles about this. (In case anyone missed it, yes THIS is judging.)
It's a shit sundae of either finding full time in person school or quitting a job or losing our minds.
If I remember correctly your kid is in in-person school (daycare) this year so you could also liken it to me trying to get full time daycare. I am currently spending the price of private school for both my kids to get 20 hours a week of childcare (a sitter). Having part time childcare is non sustainable for us but full time group childcare is not something I can access at my kids' ages. It doesn't exist. So I can either use private school for 5k a year x two kids, or I can pay 15$ an hour for a sitter which adds up to a LOT more if I want full time care.
I stuck to my principles for this year but at the 18 month mark (Sept), yep I'm throwing in the towel.
Yeah, I'm seeing the people who talk a good game who really can't stick with their principles. But it's always been like this. It's all fun and games until your child is involved, and then white supremacy always rules. I actually have articles about this. (In case anyone missed it, yes THIS is judging.)
It's a shit sundae of either finding full time in person school or quitting a job or losing our minds.
If I remember correctly your kid is in in-person school (daycare) this year so you could also liken it to me trying to get full time daycare. I am currently spending the price of private school for both my kids to get 20 hours a week of childcare. That is non sustainable for us but full time childcare is not something I can access at my kids' ages. It doesn't exist. So I can either use private school for 5k a year x two kids, or I can pay 15$ an hour for a sitter which adds up to a LOT more if I want full time care.
I stuck to my principles for this year but at the 18 month mark (Sept), yep I'm throwing in the towel.
You do you. Yet know your decision is going to fuck a LOT of kids. What's best for your family is fucking terrible for a hell of a lot more.
ETA: And since my personal decision was brought up - Yes, my kid is at a daycare center where more than half the kids are subsidized (I don't think that's the right term, they're receiving help with payments). My decision to keep my son in daycare was actually calculated, because of their enrollment numbers when shit went down they didn't have to close, thereby keeping the center open for essential workers. It was one of two that stayed open during the shutdown. I could have easily kept him home, but I chose to continue sending him after a conversation with the center director.
I don’t even think I understand what’s being debated here anymore.
I’m team if the teachers are vaccinated we should open up with masks and distancing.
Me neither.
But i predict this: schools will return in-person in fall 2021, and schools will pretend this year didn’t happen. So back to exactly the same issues we faced before we got shut down, learning nothing from the year.
Post by breezy8407 on Jan 19, 2021 17:47:25 GMT -5
I'm team everything is terrible and no one wins this shitty game.
My kids are slated to go back 2/1. On one hand, this is good for me and my increasingly stressful workload. On the other, its terrifying to me that they are going back out into the "wild" again. So I get to trade some of my anxiety over failing at work* with anxiety over them being in school potentially exposed. I know I am not alone in this, as indicated here.
So teachers are teaching and will be going back without being vaccinated in the coming weeks. H's school got moved up a few weeks to go back in hybrid mode. His district got their first doses available. A whopping 20 of them. I feel for those that have to decide who gets the first 20.
*Just them going back to school is not a guarantee of this, lol.
And seriously, what do you all think equity is? You're going to have to give more to keep your kid in school than others who don't have the financial means to do so. In turn keeping the schools open and fully staffed. You can't just throw out, "Oh I believe in public schools and they should be equitable" when you're asked to pony up the equity. This is where the rubber meets the road, the shit hits the fan, and all the other dumbass phrases about putting up or shutting up.
If the debate is private school versus public then I get it.
I am happy to list inequities from my stint in a large public school district many many years ago. Rants, I have them. Festivals style. And we can go through and address how to change them. However, they don’t relate to Covid or the vaccine, so they probably are better in a separate thread.
I couldn’t see how I, one person, could implement change, so I left the job altogether. I was also just out of school and very idealist. So that job shot all my ideals. I also worked in a daycamp and can speak to the quality of care there also.
I'm team everything is terrible and no one wins this shitty game.
My kids are slated to go back 2/1. On one hand, this is good for me and my increasingly stressful workload. On the other, its terrifying to me that they are going back out into the "wild" again. So I get to trade some of my anxiety over failing at work* with anxiety over them being in school potentially exposed. I know I am not alone in this, as indicated here.
So teachers are teaching and will be going back without being vaccinated in the coming weeks. H's school got moved up a few weeks to go back in hybrid mode. His district got their first doses available. A whopping 20 of them. I feel for those that have to decide who gets the first 20.
*Just them going back to school is not a guarantee of this, lol.
You're in MN, right? My MIL's district (she's a school admin) got 4 (!!) doses. It's a really small district, but her initial response was "JFC why bother?" They're trying to allocate them to the oldest teachers/teachers with the worst preexisting conditions, but even that is hard.
ETA: I know every little bit helps and I am a total #shotsinarms advocate, but it's all just so frustrating.
I really hope they start getting more each week.
Is MN just being really terrible about this? I have a teacher friend where her district got 15. Whomp.
I don’t even think I understand what’s being debated here anymore.
I’m team if the teachers are vaccinated we should open up with masks and distancing.
I'm here too but distancing here requires hybrid. I except hybrid+masks+other modifications come fall for my local school. I know other schools have less students per class and/or more space in rooms that change if they can open. Political considerations will also play a role. Some schools are fully open now so I would assume they will remain open with more protections for staff offered by the vaccine.
If all kids can go back it would wonderful but I don't think we'll be there because I don't think we'll be close to the adult vaccine rates needed to do that assuming kids don't need to be vaccinated from a public health view. I haven't seen reporting on vaccines rates for staff here. I also think the union may object to full time time in person until there is a pediatric vaccine that is distributed to 70% (or whatever is the herd immunity level).
I'm team everything is terrible and no one wins this shitty game.
My kids are slated to go back 2/1. On one hand, this is good for me and my increasingly stressful workload. On the other, its terrifying to me that they are going back out into the "wild" again. So I get to trade some of my anxiety over failing at work* with anxiety over them being in school potentially exposed. I know I am not alone in this, as indicated here.
So teachers are teaching and will be going back without being vaccinated in the coming weeks. H's school got moved up a few weeks to go back in hybrid mode. His district got their first doses available. A whopping 20 of them. I feel for those that have to decide who gets the first 20.
*Just them going back to school is not a guarantee of this, lol.
You're in MN, right? My MIL's district (she's a school admin) got 4 (!!) doses. It's a really small district, but her initial response was "JFC why bother?" They're trying to allocate them to the oldest teachers/teachers with the worst preexisting conditions, but even that is hard.
ETA: I know every little bit helps and I am a total #shotsinarms advocate, but it's all just so frustrating.
I really hope they start getting more each week.
Yes, it seems almost laughable. Its a fairly large metro district.
You're in MN, right? My MIL's district (she's a school admin) got 4 (!!) doses. It's a really small district, but her initial response was "JFC why bother?" They're trying to allocate them to the oldest teachers/teachers with the worst preexisting conditions, but even that is hard.
ETA: I know every little bit helps and I am a total #shotsinarms advocate, but it's all just so frustrating.
I really hope they start getting more each week.
Is MN just being really terrible about this? I have a teacher friend where her district got 15. Whomp.
I am still trying to figure that out. Like I said in the other thread, this plus seeing neighboring states doing better than us with vax rates per capita its all just depressing.
I also hope each week they get more and it will just take time. I think there is an option for teachers to go to state run sites, but you have to call to set up an appointment and I am still trying to sort through that info against the emails H has been getting.
It's a shit sundae of either finding full time in person school or quitting a job or losing our minds.
If I remember correctly your kid is in in-person school (daycare) this year so you could also liken it to me trying to get full time daycare. I am currently spending the price of private school for both my kids to get 20 hours a week of childcare. That is non sustainable for us but full time childcare is not something I can access at my kids' ages. It doesn't exist. So I can either use private school for 5k a year x two kids, or I can pay 15$ an hour for a sitter which adds up to a LOT more if I want full time care.
I stuck to my principles for this year but at the 18 month mark (Sept), yep I'm throwing in the towel.
You do you. Yet know your decision is going to fuck a LOT of kids. What's best for your family is fucking terrible for a hell of a lot more.
ETA: And since my personal decision was brought up - Yes, my kid is at a daycare center where more than half the kids are subsidized (I don't think that's the right term, they're receiving help with payments). My decision to keep my son in daycare was actually calculated, because of their enrollment numbers when shit went down they didn't have to close, thereby keeping the center open for essential workers. It was one of two that stayed open during the shutdown. I could have easily kept him home, but I chose to continue sending him after a conversation with the center director.
This seems like a huge martyr stance here. I'm a huge advocate for public schools- my children attend a large public school in the city, but I'm not going to pretend that it's some kind of cross I have to bear for the sake of others. Of course enrollment numbers are important for funding, of course we want children to be choosing public over private- but if you literally don't have childcare in the middle of a pandemic and need to bow out for a year so that you can maintain your job and health care? I can understand that. I can allow some grace for that, and maybe not dump an entire system's history of unequally funded schools and shitty policies on one woman's feet.
I have yet to meet a single teacher who wants to spend more time away from the kids. I’m sure there are a few out there but I don’t think this is the majority. NOTHING about teaching from home is easier for these poor teachers and the usual rewards for the shit parts of their job are not happening.
Interesting. As a teacher, I know many colleagues that would prefer to be at home but aren’t given that opportunity. I also taught from home in the spring and enjoyed a lot of benefits doing so, like the fact that I wasn’t required to teach virtual students and in-person simultaneously as I do now.
I think I misunderstood what you were saying. Yes of course I see the appeal in teaching virtually rather than the crap that is happening in schools right now.
What I meant is that most people go into teaching because they enjoy being around kids, helping them learn, being there for those breakthrough moments, etc. I am a teacher myself although I am currently home with my kids and am so grateful not to be in the classroom right now. You all are champs for putting up with this shit.
The teachers I know would all rather be teaching in “the before times” in school, as normal, rather than what is happening now. So my point was more like - I don’t think the teacher she mentioned is changing her stance because she enjoys sitting around in her pjs on zoom.
You do you. Yet know your decision is going to fuck a LOT of kids. What's best for your family is fucking terrible for a hell of a lot more.
ETA: And since my personal decision was brought up - Yes, my kid is at a daycare center where more than half the kids are subsidized (I don't think that's the right term, they're receiving help with payments). My decision to keep my son in daycare was actually calculated, because of their enrollment numbers when shit went down they didn't have to close, thereby keeping the center open for essential workers. It was one of two that stayed open during the shutdown. I could have easily kept him home, but I chose to continue sending him after a conversation with the center director.
This seems like a huge martyr stance here. I'm a huge advocate for public schools- my children attend a large public school in the city, but I'm not going to pretend that it's some kind of cross I have to bear for the sake of others. Of course enrollment numbers are important for funding, of course we want children to be choosing public over private- but if you literally don't have childcare in the middle of a pandemic and need to bow out for a year so that you can maintain your job and health care? I can understand that. I can allow some grace for that, and maybe not dump an entire system's history of unequally funded schools and shitty policies on one woman's feet.
It actually is a HUGE issue for schools, and one of the biggest (and possibly worst) ways we perpetuate white supremacy. In a thread where we've been discussing, on both sides, how much that inequality gap has arisen during the pandemic, and where a teacher chimed in that just 37 kids out of 400 choosing other schooling will seriously hamper their funding and staffing levels... yes, this is ONE WOMAN'S responsibility. Especially this year, of all years.
Some teachers unions seem to be shifting the goalposts similarly. I hate to sound fatalist, but if public schools do virtual literally an entire other school year, I don't see how they're going to recover from that. Even more wealthy people will pull their kids out and send to private school, etc.
I mean this would not be awful for public schools. They would still be funding the schools with their tax dollars, only now the schools would have less kids to support.
Keep in mind most schools in wealthy districts benefit not just from the tax dollars but parent contributions for the school, through things like PTA donations, running clubs and running and donating to fundraisers, etc. It's not just about tax dollars, it's about parent involvement. Unfortunately if you are wealthy, you are more likely to have both the time and money to give. If that time and money is going to a private school, the public school is losing out.
Unless you're throwing out $10k at the bake sale, you're not going to make a dent in the amount of money you're taking when you remove a child from public school.
Interesting. As a teacher, I know many colleagues that would prefer to be at home but aren’t given that opportunity. I also taught from home in the spring and enjoyed a lot of benefits doing so, like the fact that I wasn’t required to teach virtual students and in-person simultaneously as I do now.
I think I misunderstood what you were saying. Yes of course I see the appeal in teaching virtually rather than the crap that is happening in schools right now.
What I meant is that most people go into teaching because they enjoy being around kids, helping them learn, being there for those breakthrough moments, etc. I am a teacher myself although I am currently home with my kids and am so grateful not to be in the classroom right now. You all are champs for putting up with this shit.
The teachers I know would all rather be teaching in “the before times” in school, as normal, rather than what is happening now. So my point was more like - I don’t think the teacher she mentioned is changing her stance because she enjoys sitting around in her pjs on zoom.
So, you aren’t a teacher right now. And yes, it’s definitely possible that the person she mentioned is “moving goal posts” because she would rather teach at home on zoom. I just mentioned that was possible, that’s all. I wasn’t criticizing her for it. Every day on the boards people express they’d rather work from home.
I'm here too but distancing here requires hybrid. I except hybrid+masks+other modifications come fall for my local school. I know other schools have less students per class and/or more space in rooms that change if they can open. Political considerations will also play a role. Some schools are fully open now so I would assume they will remain open with more protections for staff offered by the vaccine.
If all kids can go back it would wonderful but I don't think we'll be there because I don't think we'll be close to the adult vaccine rates needed to do that assuming kids don't need to be vaccinated from a public health view. I haven't seen reporting on vaccines rates for staff here. I also think the union may object to full time time in person until there is a pediatric vaccine that is distributed to 70% (or whatever is the herd immunity level).
Ok. So when I say that I have seen sentiment from some people (I'm not saying the bolded is your personal belief, hocus2 , because I don't know if it is) that schools shouldn't/might not be able to open until all/most kids are vaccinated, and not just all teachers...here is an example.
If given the choice between full remote or full capacity open (so 30 students in a class) we'd send my kid back as long as cases were low, teacher/staff vaccine rater are high and other mitigation practices like frequent tests/masks/preventing cohort crossing were in place. I will also get the vaccine as soon as the general public can which seems like late summer right now but could be later given the challenges I am seeing.
I would feel more comfortable with a 50% rotation which is what we were hoping for this year. I see open as a having levels from small cohorts to most kids going in person. I am not sure you see it the same way. That is why I use the term "fully open" when I talk about this. For complicated local reasons (slow vaccine roll out, union considerations, parent views) I do not think my local schools will be fully open. I could be wrong. Having a normal school year sounds amazing. It just doesn't seem likely here and I think the issue at play here exist in other communities too.