This seems like a huge martyr stance here. I'm a huge advocate for public schools- my children attend a large public school in the city, but I'm not going to pretend that it's some kind of cross I have to bear for the sake of others. Of course enrollment numbers are important for funding, of course we want children to be choosing public over private- but if you literally don't have childcare in the middle of a pandemic and need to bow out for a year so that you can maintain your job and health care? I can understand that. I can allow some grace for that, and maybe not dump an entire system's history of unequally funded schools and shitty policies on one woman's feet.
It actually is a HUGE issue for schools, and one of the biggest (and possibly worst) ways we perpetuate white supremacy. In a thread where we've been discussing, on both sides, how much that inequality gap has arisen during the pandemic, and where a teacher chimed in that just 37 kids out of 400 choosing other schooling will seriously hamper their funding and staffing levels... yes, this is ONE WOMAN'S responsibility. Especially this year, of all years.
A school I worked at literally shut down because a charter school moved in and took over half our enrollment. Every teacher hired after 1999 was furloughed (it was 2011). We were completely underfunded by the state and had to move to half day kindergarten in order to spread the tiny funding we did get, and parents at the school could not afford after or before school care or coordinate multiple drop offs and pick ups during the day, so they naturally went to the charter school and I honestly couldn’t blame them. So yes, losing students is a HUGE issue for schools- but it’s not always black and white, and I think this is a case where it’s gray. Now, the mom at my school who moved her kids to a 25k+ a year school because it had a better vacation day policies so they could go on multiple trips during the year? Yes, privileged nonsense. Leaving your school so you can literally maintain employment? Not so much.
The way we fund and run schools needs to fundamentally change, full stop. And we can make choices in our own towns and cities that most benefit others (and we should) but a lot of the changes need to happen at the state level, and we need to be aiming some of our rage higher.
Post by breezy8407 on Jan 19, 2021 18:38:06 GMT -5
I also want to mention me being blindsided by a failed referendum in 2019. Its usually an issue in more rural districts, as people don't want their taxes to increase, but its another issue at the local level when we talk funding. It was so hard to know so many people in our district voted no. DS had an amazing teacher last year, and she was one of the people who got let go because she was relatively young and I think it was her 3rd year teaching.
I could go on about the particulars of this referendum, but that's for a different thread.
Ok. So when I say that I have seen sentiment from some people (I'm not saying the bolded is your personal belief, hocus2 , because I don't know if it is) that schools shouldn't/might not be able to open until all/most kids are vaccinated, and not just all teachers...here is an example.
If given the choice between full remote or full capacity open (so 30 students in a class) we'd send my kid back as long as cases were low, teacher/staff vaccine rater are high and other mitigation practices like frequent tests/masks/preventing cohort crossing were in place. I will also get the vaccine as soon as the general public can which seems like late summer right now but could be later given the challenges I am seeing.
I would feel more comfortable with a 50% rotation which is what we were hoping for this year. I see open as a having levels from small cohorts to most kids going in person. I am not sure you see it the same way. That is why I use the term "fully open" when I talk about this. For complicated local reasons (slow vaccine roll out, union considerations, parent views) I do not think my local schools will be fully open. I could be wrong. Having a normal school year sounds amazing. It just doesn't seem likely here and I think the issue at play here exist in other communities too.
For reference, one kid has been going to school for 12 hours a week for two months, and nothing since mid Nov.
The other kid has gone to school for a total of 8 hours so far.
So we are not even close to a level of school where I can maintain employment without childcare.
So anyone who wants to judge me for needing my kids in school, have at it. Hope you feel good about yourself for that.
If given the choice between full remote or full capacity open (so 30 students in a class) we'd send my kid back as long as cases were low, teacher/staff vaccine rater are high and other mitigation practices like frequent tests/masks/preventing cohort crossing were in place. I will also get the vaccine as soon as the general public can which seems like late summer right now but could be later given the challenges I am seeing.
I would feel more comfortable with a 50% rotation which is what we were hoping for this year. I see open as a having levels from small cohorts to most kids going in person. I am not sure you see it the same way. That is why I use the term "fully open" when I talk about this. For complicated local reasons (slow vaccine roll out, union considerations, parent views) I do not think my local schools will be fully open. I could be wrong. Having a normal school year sounds amazing. It just doesn't seem likely here and I think the issue at play here exist in other communities too.
For reference, one kid has been going to school for 12 hours a week for two months, and nothing since mid Nov.
The other kid has gone to school for a total of 8 hours so far.
So we are not even close to a level of school where I can maintain employment without childcare.
So anyone who wants to judge me for needing my kids in school, have at it. Hope you feel good about yourself for that.
I don't feel good about it. I also don't feel good that someone else is going to lose their job because you're pulling at least $20k out of the district when/if you leave. That's the reality.
For the record, I'm ALL FOR opening back up when all staff has been fully vaccinated.
To do otherwise is foolish and disrespectful to a profession that has been shit on enough already.
Do you know how many teachers at your school want the vaccine vs. don’t want it?
I asked our principal at the PTO meeting the other night about the vaccine and she said it’s not mandatory. I wonder how many teachers will not want it, and what does that mean for reopening schools?
I don't. But I'm also not talking to a lot of people because most of us are working from home while we can.
It won't be mandatory. However, I suspect absences related to covid for those who opt out will be handled differently?
We had to shut down out of hybrid because too many adults were exposed and there aren't enough subs. I don't see how that will change until the usual 80% of vaccinated people is complete.
It actually is a HUGE issue for schools, and one of the biggest (and possibly worst) ways we perpetuate white supremacy. In a thread where we've been discussing, on both sides, how much that inequality gap has arisen during the pandemic, and where a teacher chimed in that just 37 kids out of 400 choosing other schooling will seriously hamper their funding and staffing levels... yes, this is ONE WOMAN'S responsibility. Especially this year, of all years.
A school I worked at literally shut down because a charter school moved in and took over half our enrollment. Every teacher hired after 1999 was furloughed (it was 2011). We were completely underfunded by the state and had to move to half day kindergarten in order to spread the tiny funding we did get, and parents at the school could not afford after or before school care or coordinate multiple drop offs and pick ups during the day, so they naturally went to the charter school and I honestly couldn’t blame them. So yes, losing students is a HUGE issue for schools- but it’s not always black and white, and I think this is a case where it’s gray. Now, the mom at my school who moved her kids to a 25k+ a year school because it had a better vacation day policies so they could go on multiple trips during the year? Yes, privileged nonsense. Leaving your school so you can literally maintain employment? Not so much.
The way we fund and run schools needs to fundamentally change, full stop. And we can make choices in our own towns and cities that most benefit others (and we should) but a lot of the changes need to happen at the state level, and we need to be aiming some of our rage higher.
I agree and disagree. Schools were already in crisis before this (we agree on this). Now that parents are pulling their kids from schools in droves we're at the point where public schools are going to fail (this is where we disagree about personal responsibility at this time).
For reference, one kid has been going to school for 12 hours a week for two months, and nothing since mid Nov.
The other kid has gone to school for a total of 8 hours so far.
So we are not even close to a level of school where I can maintain employment without childcare.
So anyone who wants to judge me for needing my kids in school, have at it. Hope you feel good about yourself for that.
I don't feel good about it. I also don't feel good that someone else is going to lose their job because you're pulling at least $20k out of the district when/if you leave. That's the reality.
Jesus Christ- in this instance someone might lose their job because our country has completely fucked up our covid response, we have inadequate social safety nets, and underfunded public schools. It's not that simple!
For reference, one kid has been going to school for 12 hours a week for two months, and nothing since mid Nov.
The other kid has gone to school for a total of 8 hours so far.
So we are not even close to a level of school where I can maintain employment without childcare.
So anyone who wants to judge me for needing my kids in school, have at it. Hope you feel good about yourself for that.
I don't feel good about it. I also don't feel good that someone else is going to lose their job because you're pulling at least $20k out of the district when/if you leave. That's the reality.
If given the choice between full remote or full capacity open (so 30 students in a class) we'd send my kid back as long as cases were low, teacher/staff vaccine rater are high and other mitigation practices like frequent tests/masks/preventing cohort crossing were in place. I will also get the vaccine as soon as the general public can which seems like late summer right now but could be later given the challenges I am seeing.
I would feel more comfortable with a 50% rotation which is what we were hoping for this year. I see open as a having levels from small cohorts to most kids going in person. I am not sure you see it the same way. That is why I use the term "fully open" when I talk about this. For complicated local reasons (slow vaccine roll out, union considerations, parent views) I do not think my local schools will be fully open. I could be wrong. Having a normal school year sounds amazing. It just doesn't seem likely here and I think the issue at play here exist in other communities too.
For reference, one kid has been going to school for 12 hours a week for two months, and nothing since mid Nov.
The other kid has gone to school for a total of 8 hours so far.
So we are not even close to a level of school where I can maintain employment without childcare.
So anyone who wants to judge me for needing my kids in school, have at it. Hope you feel good about yourself for that.
I am not judging anyone for childcare considerations. If schools do not fully open districts CAN absolutely work with families and community partners to offer childcare for families who need it. There is a free program here and several private options that do remote schooling coverage. These programs are not robust enough and that is a valid concern.
My post is more about how I do not believe schools in my area will open completely. The complex reasons behind it relate to vaccine rates and unions and other factors as well. I am well aware of the challenges that creates. From a political perceptive I think we need to face what will happen and problem solve.
If given the choice between full remote or full capacity open (so 30 students in a class) we'd send my kid back as long as cases were low, teacher/staff vaccine rater are high and other mitigation practices like frequent tests/masks/preventing cohort crossing were in place. I will also get the vaccine as soon as the general public can which seems like late summer right now but could be later given the challenges I am seeing.
I would feel more comfortable with a 50% rotation which is what we were hoping for this year. I see open as a having levels from small cohorts to most kids going in person. I am not sure you see it the same way. That is why I use the term "fully open" when I talk about this. For complicated local reasons (slow vaccine roll out, union considerations, parent views) I do not think my local schools will be fully open. I could be wrong. Having a normal school year sounds amazing. It just doesn't seem likely here and I think the issue at play here exist in other communities too.
For reference, one kid has been going to school for 12 hours a week for two months, and nothing since mid Nov.
The other kid has gone to school for a total of 8 hours so far.
So we are not even close to a level of school where I can maintain employment without childcare.
So anyone who wants to judge me for needing my kids in school, have at it. Hope you feel good about yourself for that.
It's not a martyr contest, you know.
Do you feel bad about teachers' health being at risk? Enough to wait until staff is fully vaccinated? I'm not going to prioritize anyone's need for in-person school over my own health. Why should I? Dying or getting a long term illness on the job is actually *not* what teachers signed up for.
I'm still trying to figure out the "of course I support public schools and teachers, but I want them to put their health at risk anyway" crew.
I don't feel good about it. I also don't feel good that someone else is going to lose their job because you're pulling at least $20k out of the district when/if you leave. That's the reality.
Jesus Christ- in this instance someone might lose their job because our country has completely fucked up our covid response, we have inadequate social safety nets, and underfunded public schools. It's not that simple!
And yet it is. Schools are down to counting each and every student that leaves and doing the math. Perhaps if we hadn't started doing this in a crisis situation we wouldn't be talking about personal responsibility and our own actions. We could go back to hoping and praying that things will get better, and thinking that our votes will help with no action on our own part.
Is MN just being really terrible about this? I have a teacher friend where her district got 15. Whomp.
I am still trying to figure that out. Like I said in the other thread, this plus seeing neighboring states doing better than us with vax rates per capita its all just depressing.
I also hope each week they get more and it will just take time. I think there is an option for teachers to go to state run sites, but you have to call to set up an appointment and I am still trying to sort through that info against the emails H has been getting.
I've heard that we're receiving less vaccine than neighboring states relative to population because age is a consideration and we're a relatively young state.
Also, isn't it interesting how willing we all are to turn on each other when the chips are down?
Someone less drained than I am can probably provide the succinct reasoning.
This is where I am with so much of the opening schools argument. There is nothing more than a cursory focus on how employers have fucked over their employees because, shit, employees will just push the burden back onto schools. Every comment I see boils down to, "Well, yeah, my job sucks for this, but I can't do anything about it, so open the schools!"
I can't imagine this slow roll out or whatever SNAFU MN is dealing with regarding vaccine roll out is going to help Walz next year if he runs for reelection. 😭😩 People up here are claiming he's hoarding all the doses in the metro area, which is not true.
Jesus Christ- in this instance someone might lose their job because our country has completely fucked up our covid response, we have inadequate social safety nets, and underfunded public schools. It's not that simple!
And yet it is. Schools are down to counting each and every student that leaves and doing the math. Perhaps if we hadn't started doing this in a crisis situation we wouldn't be talking about personal responsibility and our own actions. We could go back to hoping and praying that things will get better, and thinking that our votes will help with no action on our own part.
Who is taking no action? Who is just hoping and praying that things get better? I'm so confused by this post. It is possible to do two things at once- to vote for people on every level who want systemic change to how our schools are funded, contacting those in power to voice opposition to new charter and private schools opening and the amount of funding they strip from public schools that need it, fundraise to help local schools who are struggling, making sure we send our children to public schools- we can all do that, especially under normal times. But you're pretending that this one choice and it's impact is standing alone, and it's not- there's layers of fuck ups upon fuck ups that lead to a moment where the choice to move schools to keep your own job during a deadly pandemic, leads to another person potentially losing their job or a school losing programs. It is a massive problem on all levels. I don't think we can ask people to give up their financial stability in a pandemic to fix it.
The more I read this thread, the more I think citing @vprasadmdmph was appropriate. I think he’s gone of the rails, but he fits in here. He was formerly oncology drug development, discussing PFS, surrogate endpoint, etc. Now he is all kids in school because the ramifications on some kids.
Although it doesn’t fit this board, he is also always bitching that we haven’t done randomized control trials for masks. So why push them. Which is on brand that we should do *anything* unproven. As a cancer doctor, where so many people have nothing to do but hope that progression free survival will help them.
And yet it is. Schools are down to counting each and every student that leaves and doing the math. Perhaps if we hadn't started doing this in a crisis situation we wouldn't be talking about personal responsibility and our own actions. We could go back to hoping and praying that things will get better, and thinking that our votes will help with no action on our own part.
Who is taking no action? Who is just hoping and praying that things get better? I'm so confused by this post. It is possible to do two things at once- to vote for people on every level who want systemic change to how our schools are funded, contacting those in power to voice opposition to new charter and private schools opening and the amount of funding they strip from public schools that need it, fundraise to help local schools who are struggling, making sure we send our children to public schools- we can all do that, especially under normal times. But you're pretending that this one choice and it's impact is standing alone, and it's not- there's layers of fuck ups upon fuck ups that lead to a moment where the choice to move schools to keep your own job during a deadly pandemic, leads to another person potentially losing their job or a school losing programs. It is a massive problem on all levels. I don't think we can ask people to give up their financial stability in a pandemic to fix it.
If not now, when? Change never happens at a convenient time. Public schools are, as the NYTimes put it, in a death spiral. They may not survive.
Who is taking no action? Who is just hoping and praying that things get better? I'm so confused by this post. It is possible to do two things at once- to vote for people on every level who want systemic change to how our schools are funded, contacting those in power to voice opposition to new charter and private schools opening and the amount of funding they strip from public schools that need it, fundraise to help local schools who are struggling, making sure we send our children to public schools- we can all do that, especially under normal times. But you're pretending that this one choice and it's impact is standing alone, and it's not- there's layers of fuck ups upon fuck ups that lead to a moment where the choice to move schools to keep your own job during a deadly pandemic, leads to another person potentially losing their job or a school losing programs. It is a massive problem on all levels. I don't think we can ask people to give up their financial stability in a pandemic to fix it.
If not now, when? Change never happens at a convenient time. Public schools are, as the NYTimes put it, in a death spiral. They may not survive.
Yes, and let us put the blame for that where it is rightly deserved.
If not now, when? Change never happens at a convenient time. Public schools are, as the NYTimes put it, in a death spiral. They may not survive.
Yes, and let us put the blame for that where it is rightly deserved.
FWIW, I understand your whole argument, and historically I would have agreed with you. I think we're seeing the end of public education being rammed through by individual choices on a massive scale that we usually only see in individual districts. So it's all of it. All of it in one big toilet bowl where no one wins.
For reference, one kid has been going to school for 12 hours a week for two months, and nothing since mid Nov.
The other kid has gone to school for a total of 8 hours so far.
So we are not even close to a level of school where I can maintain employment without childcare.
So anyone who wants to judge me for needing my kids in school, have at it. Hope you feel good about yourself for that.
It's not a martyr contest, you know.
Do you feel bad about teachers' health being at risk? Enough to wait until staff is fully vaccinated? I'm not going to prioritize anyone's need for in-person school over my own health. Why should I? Dying or getting a long term illness on the job is actually *not* what teachers signed up for.
I'm still trying to figure out the "of course I support public schools and teachers, but I want them to put their health at risk anyway" crew.
I am assuming all teachers who want it will get it by Sept when school starts.
If that is the case I expect full time in person school to be an option.
Post by seeyalater52 on Jan 19, 2021 20:51:37 GMT -5
Where I live and in a neighboring state it looks like vaccine take up among hospital employees (not all direct patient care) is roughly 30-50% of those offered the vaccine. We live in a fairly blue area and these are literally people who work in health care. Health care facilities are not mandating the vaccine for patient-facing workers even though they do mandate other more established vaccines like flu.
Let’s just say I’m less than optimistic that enough teachers are going to end up vaccinated to get to herd immunity in schools, even if we don’t count kids who can’t get vaccinated yet in that equation.
Do you feel bad about teachers' health being at risk? Enough to wait until staff is fully vaccinated? I'm not going to prioritize anyone's need for in-person school over my own health. Why should I? Dying or getting a long term illness on the job is actually *not* what teachers signed up for.
I'm still trying to figure out the "of course I support public schools and teachers, but I want them to put their health at risk anyway" crew.
I am assuming all teachers who want it will get it by Sept when school starts.
If that is the case I expect full time in person school to be an option.
And if it's not the case, be mad at the right people about it and act accordingly.
For the record, I'm ALL FOR opening back up when all staff has been fully vaccinated.
To do otherwise is foolish and disrespectful to a profession that has been shit on enough already.
Have there been talks where you are about mandating teachers to get vaccinated? Just curious if other professions are talking about this. I haven't heard anything in my profession and there are people opting not to get vaccinated for a variety of reasons (plus it's not even available to all health care workers yet either). I think mostly no one has made it mandatory yet because the vaccines are still under emergency authorization. I know everywhere I've worked now and previously the flu vaccine isn't required, but if you don't get it you're supposed to wear a mask at work during flu season (which is almost half the year).
Just curious how it'll work for the teaching profession if schools can't open until everyone is vaccinated.
Where I live and in a neighboring state it looks like vaccine take up among hospital employees (not all direct patient care) is roughly 30-50% of those offered the vaccine. We live in a fairly blue area and these are literally people who work in health care. Health care facilities are not mandating the vaccine for patient-facing workers even though they do mandate other more established vaccines like flu.
Let’s just say I’m less than optimistic that enough teachers are going to end up vaccinated to get to herd immunity in schools, even if we don’t count kids who can’t get vaccinated yet in that equation.
Our hospitals locally have reported closer to 60-70%, but I do think this is a good point. I’m hoping numbers improve over time without a mandate... but so many adults have shown us time and time again that they’re not willing to make needed sacrifices for schools to safely operate.
Schools absolutely should be open for in person learning.
We also shouldn’t have Disney, bars, spa days, contact sports without masks, leisure air travel, professional sports with live fans, large family gatherings, indoor dining, casinos, malls, movie theaters, etc etc etc to make this as safe as possible since school safety is directly related to rates of community transmission. At the very least, everyone wearing a damn mask around *every* person (including our kids) outside of their household at *all* times, I’m sure we could do a ton to curb transmission and make schools safer for everyone.
We are asking much of our kids, largely to protect the adults in their lives, and it feels like we’re failing them (as a society).
For the record, I'm ALL FOR opening back up when all staff has been fully vaccinated.
To do otherwise is foolish and disrespectful to a profession that has been shit on enough already.
Have there been talks where you are about mandating teachers to get vaccinated? Just curious if other professions are talking about this. I haven't heard anything in my profession and there are people opting not to get vaccinated for a variety of reasons (plus it's not even available to all health care workers yet either). I think mostly no one has made it mandatory yet because the vaccines are still under emergency authorization. I know everywhere I've worked now and previously the flu vaccine isn't required, but if you don't get it you're supposed to wear a mask at work during flu season (which is almost half the year).
Just curious how it'll work for the teaching profession if schools can't open until everyone is vaccinated.
We can't mandate it, but our principal sent out an email to the entire staff asking if we were going to get the vaccination when it became available. They said they wanted to get a rough number for planning purposes. Out of the 8 teachers I work closely with I know at least 2 or 3 who don't want to get it. It's infuriating.
ETA: I'm wondering if they won't have unvaccinated staff continue to WFH as long as there are students who choose virtual learning.
Where I live and in a neighboring state it looks like vaccine take up among hospital employees (not all direct patient care) is roughly 30-50% of those offered the vaccine. We live in a fairly blue area and these are literally people who work in health care. Health care facilities are not mandating the vaccine for patient-facing workers even though they do mandate other more established vaccines like flu.
Let’s just say I’m less than optimistic that enough teachers are going to end up vaccinated to get to herd immunity in schools, even if we don’t count kids who can’t get vaccinated yet in that equation.
They mandate the flu? I worked at a huge hospital for 15yrs and it wasn’t mandated, if you didn’t get it you had to wear appropriate PPE when seeing patients. I don’t see how anyone can mandate this vaccine. Would be nice, though!
ETA: I know of many employees at our hospitals that turned it down for x,y,z reasons:(
I see I repeated some of what @wandering said, should have kept reading!
Most mandate flu unless you have a reason for exemption and then you can sub PPE. It’s very common here according to my friends who work in health care, and not just for clinical roles.
I agree it shouldn’t be mandated since it’s only under emergency authorization but without additional incentive from workplaces and other entities (government, entertainment, tourism) I think we will struggle to get to a useful vaccination rate.
My current hospital allows masks for flu vaccine declination, but I’ve worked at a major hospital with a flu vaccine mandate. Medical exemptions were approved by a separate review board and limited to basically listed contraindications for the vaccine. I believe there were religious exemptions allowed as well, but also very strictly approved.
I have a family member who is anti-flu vaccine. She was fired from a skilled nursing facility a couple years ago because of a new flu vaccine mandate. She had been permitted to wear a mask for decades before that.