Yes, you are right I don’t know what you are getting at. I watched most but not all of the new video and I don’t know when the handcuffs were on him.
It seemed to me you were implying I was blaming Floyd in some way, which I absolutely am not. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.
No, I just wasn’t sure if you saw that portion of the video because it was new to me that they got him in and then for whatever reason took him out of the car.
I was a little surprised to hear this morning that the police chief was going to testify (for the prosecution).
i doubt he had a choice and i'm guessing his testimony will be along the lines of 'no, kneeling on someone's neck is not part of any protocol or policy of our department,' which will negate any defense he will have claiming he was trained to do this
Arradando has also been very critical of all the former officers, particularly Chauvin, from the beginning. He fired them all the day after Floyd was killed, and he's consistently said Chauvin murdered Floyd, so I'm not that surprised he's testifying for the prosecution. I suspect he wanted to do so.
NewOrleans , the video we haven't seen before, from across the street (that the dispatcher could see) does seem to show Floyd really struggling/resisting initially when they were putting him in the back of the squad. I'll be honest that in watching, the initial takedown didn't strike me as out of line because Floyd was fighting getting into the squad car. It's when he stopped struggling (other than to breathe!) that Chauvin should have gotten up. LONG before Floyd passed out.
No. I 100% disagree. We as society are so conditioned that how the police treat people no matter the circumstances is ok, but that is so wrong. We need to get away from this idea that the police can just show up and police Black people especially in their neighborhoods and arrest them for anything. He was supposedly be accused of using a fake $20 bill. That's not a violent offense, he didn't need to go to jail for that in the first place. They could've given him a ticket or a warning or whatever. The police use their discretion all the time. So no a takedown wasn't warranted at all because it wasn't warranted that he be arrested.
NewOrleans , the video we haven't seen before, from across the street (that the dispatcher could see) does seem to show Floyd really struggling/resisting initially when they were putting him in the back of the squad. I'll be honest that in watching, the initial takedown didn't strike me as out of line because Floyd was fighting getting into the squad car. It's when he stopped struggling (other than to breathe!) that Chauvin should have gotten up. LONG before Floyd passed out.
No. I 100% disagree. We as society are so conditioned that how the police treat people no matter the circumstances is ok, but that is so wrong. We need to get away from this idea that the police can just show up and police Black people especially in their neighborhoods and arrest them for anything. He was supposedly be accused of using a fake $20 bill. That's not a violent offense, he didn't need to go to jail for that in the first place. They could've given him a ticket or a warning or whatever. The police use their discretion all the time. So no a takedown wasn't warranted at all because it wasn't warranted that he be arrested.
I guess I disagree that crimes shouldn't be prosecuted, but I definitely agree about police and interactions with Black people, as well as the questionable decision by Cup Foods to call it in at all. Also, Cup is 2 miles from my house, so I'm very familiar with the area and neighborhood, as it is essentially adjacent to mine.
NewOrleans , the video we haven't seen before, from across the street (that the dispatcher could see) does seem to show Floyd really struggling/resisting initially when they were putting him in the back of the squad. I'll be honest that in watching, the initial takedown didn't strike me as out of line because Floyd was fighting getting into the squad car. It's when he stopped struggling (other than to breathe!) that Chauvin should have gotten up. LONG before Floyd passed out.
No. I 100% disagree. We as society are so conditioned that how the police treat people no matter the circumstances is ok, but that is so wrong. We need to get away from this idea that the police can just show up and police Black people especially in their neighborhoods and arrest them for anything. He was supposedly be accused of using a fake $20 bill. That's not a violent offense, he didn't need to go to jail for that in the first place. They could've given him a ticket or a warning or whatever. The police use their discretion all the time. So no a takedown wasn't warranted at all because it wasn't warranted that he be arrested.
Yup I totally agree. If you watch the first officer that approaches Floyd in the vehicle, he knocks on the window and actually startles him. Once he rolls down the window, the officer immediately pulls his gun and points it at Floyd, and that was completely unnecessary. Floyd’s hands were on the steering wheel and he was just sitting in the car calmly when he approached. Floyd begs the officer not to shoot him and starts crying and the officer then puts his gun away. The entire interaction from the beginning was more than what was needed considering it was over a fake $20 bill. I don’t even know why they put him in handcuffs in the first place.
No. I 100% disagree. We as society are so conditioned that how the police treat people no matter the circumstances is ok, but that is so wrong. We need to get away from this idea that the police can just show up and police Black people especially in their neighborhoods and arrest them for anything. He was supposedly be accused of using a fake $20 bill. That's not a violent offense, he didn't need to go to jail for that in the first place. They could've given him a ticket or a warning or whatever. The police use their discretion all the time. So no a takedown wasn't warranted at all because it wasn't warranted that he be arrested.
I guess I disagree that crimes shouldn't be prosecuted, but I definitely agree about police and interactions with Black people, as well as the questionable decision by Cup Foods to call it in at all. Also, Cup is 2 miles from my house, so I'm very familiar with the area and neighborhood, as it is essentially adjacent to mine.
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know the proper term, but why couldn't he be given a ticket? The same as what happens when you're speeding? I mean I think there's a ton of things that need to be de-criminalized, but that's a different talk for a different day. So if this MUST be prosecuted (or given a ticket or whatever) there's no reason to roll up on someone, draw a gun and arrest them. Black, white, Asian whatever...no one should go to jail for using a supposed fake $20 bill (that they might not have known they were using). You really think that someone should spend time in jail, potentially losing their job which then means they lose their health insurance, means for money, etc. It makes no sense to me that people think policing poor people which means putting them in jail for non-violent offenses, which keeps people in poverty, is a good idea.
You're not the only one (and probably in the majority) with the same thinking that people need to be policed and prosecuted so I'm not surprised, but our country is so fucked up because of this thinking.
I guess I disagree that crimes shouldn't be prosecuted, but I definitely agree about police and interactions with Black people, as well as the questionable decision by Cup Foods to call it in at all. Also, Cup is 2 miles from my house, so I'm very familiar with the area and neighborhood, as it is essentially adjacent to mine.
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know the proper term, but why couldn't he be given a ticket? The same as what happens when you're speeding? I mean I think there's a ton of things that need to be de-criminalized, but that's a different talk for a different day. So if this MUST be prosecuted (or given a ticket or whatever) there's no reason to roll up on someone, draw a gun and arrest them. Black, white, Asian whatever...no one should go to jail for using a supposed fake $20 bill (that they might not have known they were using). You really think that someone should spend time in jail, potentially losing their job which then means they lose their health insurance, means for money, etc. It makes no sense to me that people think policing poor people which means putting them in jail for non-violent offenses, which keeps people in poverty, is a good idea.
You're not the only one (and probably in the majority) with the same thinking that people need to be policed and prosecuted so I'm not surprised, but our country is so fucked up because of this thinking.
I agree that a single $20 fake bill should be decriminalized, and I hope the Minnesota legislature does that. Hennepin County would have released him immediately--he wouldn't have spent time in jail after being booked--but currently under the law it is a misdemeanor to knowingly use a fake $20.
A regular speeding ticket of a pretty low level is a petty misdemeanor, so that is the type of crime that would have resulted in a ticket rather than an arrest. That's often what is thought of as decriminalization--making it a petty misdemeanor that carries only a fine. Of course some traffic infractions are misdemeanors and rise to the level of felonies depending on speed, recklessness, etc. and result in someone getting arrested.
The police could have declined to arrest him, and that does happen and probably should have here. And Cup could have declined to prosecute him too. The place to change whether it is a crime at all, however, is the legislature. But none of that really addresses the long history of very negative treatment of Black people by police, which was also significantly impacted by the discriminatory impact of the laws passed in the 1980s in the so-called "war on drugs."
I guess I disagree that crimes shouldn't be prosecuted, but I definitely agree about police and interactions with Black people, as well as the questionable decision by Cup Foods to call it in at all. Also, Cup is 2 miles from my house, so I'm very familiar with the area and neighborhood, as it is essentially adjacent to mine.
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know the proper term, but why couldn't he be given a ticket? The same as what happens when you're speeding? I mean I think there's a ton of things that need to be de-criminalized, but that's a different talk for a different day. So if this MUST be prosecuted (or given a ticket or whatever) there's no reason to roll up on someone, draw a gun and arrest them. Black, white, Asian whatever...no one should go to jail for using a supposed fake $20 bill (that they might not have known they were using). You really think that someone should spend time in jail, potentially losing their job which then means they lose their health insurance, means for money, etc. It makes no sense to me that people think policing poor people which means putting them in jail for non-violent offenses, which keeps people in poverty, is a good idea.
You're not the only one (and probably in the majority) with the same thinking that people need to be policed and prosecuted so I'm not surprised, but our country is so fucked up because of this thinking.
Exactly. This is a non violent “crime” that could have easily been a mistake. It might not have been counterfeit, he might have gotten back in change at another store, who knows? Does anyone inspect every bill that comes into their possession? Even if it wasn’t a mistake, what warranted any part of this response?
When I worked retail back in the day we were told if we suspected a bill was fake to take it, tell the people they needed to pay another way and then put it to the side. Then the manager contacted the Secret Service field office at the end of the day and turned it in. It wasn’t our job to investigate or call the police. What were they going to do? This, most likely.
You're not the only one (and probably in the majority) with the same thinking that people need to be policed and prosecuted so I'm not surprised, but our country is so fucked up because of this thinking.
I just wanted to make sure everyone sees this. So fucking spot on.
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know the proper term, but why couldn't he be given a ticket? The same as what happens when you're speeding? I mean I think there's a ton of things that need to be de-criminalized, but that's a different talk for a different day. So if this MUST be prosecuted (or given a ticket or whatever) there's no reason to roll up on someone, draw a gun and arrest them. Black, white, Asian whatever...no one should go to jail for using a supposed fake $20 bill (that they might not have known they were using). You really think that someone should spend time in jail, potentially losing their job which then means they lose their health insurance, means for money, etc. It makes no sense to me that people think policing poor people which means putting them in jail for non-violent offenses, which keeps people in poverty, is a good idea.
You're not the only one (and probably in the majority) with the same thinking that people need to be policed and prosecuted so I'm not surprised, but our country is so fucked up because of this thinking.
I agree that a single $20 fake bill should be decriminalized, and I hope the Minnesota legislature does that. Hennepin County would have released him immediately--he wouldn't have spent time in jail after being booked--but currently under the law it is a misdemeanor to knowingly use a fake $20.
A regular speeding ticket of a pretty low level is a petty misdemeanor, so that is the type of crime that would have resulted in a ticket rather than an arrest. That's often what is thought of as decriminalization--making it a petty misdemeanor that carries only a fine. Of course some traffic infractions are misdemeanors and rise to the level of felonies depending on speed, recklessness, etc. and result in someone getting arrested.
The police could have declined to arrest him, and that does happen and probably should have here. And Cup could have declined to prosecute him too. The place to change whether it is a crime at all, however, is the legislature. But none of that really addresses the long history of very negative treatment of Black people by police, which was also significantly impacted by the discriminatory impact of the laws passed in the 1980s in the so-called "war on drugs."
Exactly. So it's pretty fucked up that you said the initial take down was warranted or not out of line. Makes me sick to my stomach that people think it's ok to just throw people around like that. Even if he hadn't been murdered that kind of stuff is super traumatic for people. Yet people think just like you thinking that police officer behavior is ok. So maddening.
Why the insistence that change can't possibly happen at the beat level, the cops on the streets, and that it has to happen from the top down with legislation? The cops had choices, they made shitty ones.
I am sure your question is rhetorical but I think that status quo of our systems (like, all of them) is so engrained, embedded, and rooted that it takes a radical creativity, a radical imagination, that most of us are truly incapable of. I’m speaking more about the lack of faith in possibility for change than about anything or anyone in this thread, though. I suppose we lack said creativity because the systems themselves are so very successful at what they do.
Why the insistence that change can't possibly happen at the beat level, the cops on the streets, and that it has to happen from the top down with legislation? The cops had choices, they made shitty ones.
Like NewOrleans mentioned, it's hard for individuals to fix systemic issues. Of course individual cops on the beat should make good decisions. But that should happen at the same time that we are working legislatively to make the system incentivize them doing so.
ETA and I am not defending Chauvin at all. From everything I've heard he should go to jail for murder. Just speaking to the bigger picture.
Why the insistence that change can't possibly happen at the beat level, the cops on the streets, and that it has to happen from the top down with legislation? The cops had choices, they made shitty ones.
I don't think anyone is saying change can't occur from the bottom, but as we see time and time again this is systemic issue on top of an individual issue. These are not just a few cops. The entire system can't be trusted nor will they just voluntarily change on their own. Changing legislation forces a change and if the police don't conform there can be real, true consequences.
Again, this isn't to say things can't change on an individual or police department level, but for any large scale, real change, it needs to start at the top and move down.
Also, legislation helps streamline a change. Since states and local laws change place to place, legislation and/or a federal/state guidelines helps with conformity on all levels.
And to add, the DA is typically the biggest power player in terms of local change. If they start holding officers accountable by charging these assholes and/or by refusing to prosecute bullshit cases, the police will have to change. And though the DA has discretion on who to charge they are still lawyers who are there to uphold the laws. They also are elected officials who need to "be tough on crime" so the white people feel secure, lol. If the laws change, it opens the door for them to change which then trickles down to the cops. This is how it is supposed to work does it always, no, but it can start a chain of changes.
Why the insistence that change can't possibly happen at the beat level, the cops on the streets, and that it has to happen from the top down with legislation? The cops had choices, they made shitty ones.
I don't think anyone is saying change can't occur from the bottom, but as we see time and time again this is systemic issue on top of an individual issue. These are not just a few cops. The entire system can't be trusted nor will they just voluntarily change on their own. Changing legislation forces a change and if the police don't conform there can be real, true consequences.
Again, this isn't to say things can't change on an individual or police department level, but for any large scale, real change, it needs to start at the top and move down.
Also, legislation helps streamline a change. Since states and local laws change place to place, legislation and/or a federal/state guidelines helps with conformity on all levels.
Agree. Plus, a huge issue we see right now is police using too much discretion in a very discriminatory way. I'm not sure giving them even more discretion to decide what to arrest and not is a great idea.
That said, of course police need to lead and participate on rooting out their own bad behavior. But we also know they are really shitty about that historically. I don't think we can trust them to really get anything right from the bottom up.
I agree that a single $20 fake bill should be decriminalized, and I hope the Minnesota legislature does that. Hennepin County would have released him immediately--he wouldn't have spent time in jail after being booked--but currently under the law it is a misdemeanor to knowingly use a fake $20.
A regular speeding ticket of a pretty low level is a petty misdemeanor, so that is the type of crime that would have resulted in a ticket rather than an arrest. That's often what is thought of as decriminalization--making it a petty misdemeanor that carries only a fine. Of course some traffic infractions are misdemeanors and rise to the level of felonies depending on speed, recklessness, etc. and result in someone getting arrested.
The police could have declined to arrest him, and that does happen and probably should have here. And Cup could have declined to prosecute him too. The place to change whether it is a crime at all, however, is the legislature. But none of that really addresses the long history of very negative treatment of Black people by police, which was also significantly impacted by the discriminatory impact of the laws passed in the 1980s in the so-called "war on drugs."
Exactly. So it's pretty fucked up that you said the initial take down was warranted or not out of line. Makes me sick to my stomach that people think it's ok to just throw people around like that. Even if he hadn't been murdered that kind of stuff is super traumatic for people. Yet people think just like you thinking that police officer behavior is ok. So maddening.
If I remember correctly, previous trauma from a police interaction was why George was resistant.
I keep watching when I can and cannot believe Chauvin hasn’t pleaded or taken a deal from prosecutors.
The prosecutors are doing a great job making there point but not carrying on and on like defense.
There were stories a couple of months ago that he was ready to plead to third degree murder right in June 2020, but only if the feds would commit to no prosecution for civil rights violations, which the feds would not.
So, after posting those two articles about Arradondo's testimony, I've also seen commentary that it's self-serving of him to try to testify that Derek Chauvin's behavior went against department policy/protocols - that it amounts to the "he's just a bad apple, there's no problem with the larger system" defense. I'm sympathetic to that, but I also don't know what else Arradondo would be expected to say here. Chauvin is on trial, not the entire Minneapolis Police Department. Plus, the prosecutor walked through specific written department policies with him, and it's pretty clear that Chauvin's actions did violate those policies.
I want police reform in this country, but I also want Chauvin convicted. So I guess I'm in favor of whatever testimony gets us to that result, as a starting point.
I'm also hopeful that a conviction could help promote systemic change, or at least make more on-the-fence officers think twice about using force.
No. I 100% disagree. We because it wasn't warranted that he be arrested.
Yup I totally agree. If you watch the first officer that approaches Floyd in the vehicle, he knocks on the window and actually startles him. Once he rolls down the window, the officer immediately pulls his gun and points it at Floyd, a
😖 I did not know this. No wonder he was “going crazy” moments later as the cop put it. I would be very scared and upset, and I am not at risk in the same way GF was in those moments. Why do police assume you should just be chill after that is the opening scene of the encounter?
Is it possible to feel strongly that an individual cannot be solely responsible for fixing systemic problems and also that “just following orders” is a hollow defense? Not talking just about extremes like Chauvin, but beat cops who enforce broken windows policing.
I’m not sure how we address both at once, but without tackiling systemic problems, solutions will be isolated and without addressing personal culpability those solutions will be resisted.
Post by Poeticxpassion on Apr 8, 2021 13:00:00 GMT -5
“The toe of his boot is no longer touching the ground, this means that all of his body weight is being directed down at Mr. Floyd’s neck,” testified Dr. Tobin.
I'm listening and I feel like I say every day that this is the most damning testimony - but damn - this is the most damning testimony. He testified that a healthy person would have died under the same circumstances, that the drugs didn't make a difference. He is destroying any defense. It sounds as if he had the full attention of the jury also.