I know there are studies on this, and it continues to be studied, but .... in sitting and watching all this, all i think is that this recent rash of shootings shows the level of ANGER that exists in this country. And it makes ME angry that SO MANY of our elected officials just don't care. It's a never ending argument/ issue, but it just makes me so sad.
But I guess anger is what lines their pockets so they like it and encourage it.
I know there are studies on this, and it continues to be studied, but .... in sitting and watching all this, all i think is that this recent rash of shootings shows the level of ANGER that exists in this country. And it makes ME angry that SO MANY of our elected officials just don't care. It's a never ending argument/ issue, but it just makes me so sad.
But I guess anger is what lines their pockets so they like it and encourage it.
Yes, for a long time I thought it was because of the NRA contributions to campaigns. And I still think that.
But I start to see the racism in the whole situation too.
I know there are studies on this, and it continues to be studied, but .... in sitting and watching all this, all i think is that this recent rash of shootings shows the level of ANGER that exists in this country. And it makes ME angry that SO MANY of our elected officials just don't care. It's a never ending argument/ issue, but it just makes me so sad.
But I guess anger is what lines their pockets so they like it and encourage it.
Yes, for a long time I thought it was because of the NRA contributions to campaigns. And I still think that.
But I start to see the racism in the whole situation too.
Oh, racism is absolutely a part of it too. A big part. It's a part of the fuel that our politicians pour onto the anger that exists. "Others" are the root of these people's problems. Not themselves, their life choices, their elected officials. It's the people who don't look like them, or who have come to this country to steal their jobs....
Post by Velar Fricative on Apr 16, 2021 8:06:57 GMT -5
So awful.
I was reading that communication has been spotty because staff are not permitted to have their phones on the floor. I know that’s a rule at the local Amazon warehouse. But if we aren’t going to do anything about guns in this country it seems ridiculous not to allow people that one way they might be able to communicate with the outside world in an emergency. Have rules in place about not hopping on Facebook or taking non-emergency calls during work, but I can’t imagine the feelings of waiting even longer to hear word from their loved ones if they’re safe.
Post by underwaterrhymes on Apr 16, 2021 8:44:19 GMT -5
I’ve done a lot of thinking about this and have come to the conclusion that we have baked guns and bootstraps into our culture so much, there is no escaping.
From the very beginning, we have had this bizarre simultaneous yay bootstraps and privilege mentality. We deserve this land and to harm and abuse and kill other humans because we worked hard to get here. You can do it too, if you are white and work hard enough. Too bad if you’re Black or brown or gay or poor or disabled or the “wrong” religion.
And then we have also associated guns with our rights and freedom. You can’t take our guns because we have a right to own them! We earned that when we fought to get here! And anyone who uses a gun to do their job is super special and awesome. Yay cops and soldiers! Unless they’re Black or brown or a woman or transgender or Muslim. And then no.
Guns are a glorification and a sickness and a metaphor for freedom and privilege and because they are all of those things, we will never, ever change.
Post by NewOrleans on Apr 16, 2021 18:39:59 GMT -5
Murderer identified. 19 yo.
I took his name out because fuck him. Some info on him that I am still processing.
The gunman had at least one weapon, and McCartt told CNN the man was believed to have been carrying "a rifle of some sort" during the shooting.
His mother told law enforcement in March 2020 he might try to attempt "suicide by cop," the FBI's Indianapolis office said in a statement.
He was placed on an "immediate detention mental health temporary hold" by Indianapolis police, Keenan said in the statement, and a shotgun was seized at his home.
"Based on items observed in the suspect's bedroom at that time, he was interviewed by the FBI in April 2020," the statement said. "No Racially Motivated Violent Extremism (RMVE) ideology was identified during the course of the assessment and no criminal violation was found. The shotgun was not returned to the suspect." (I am not sure how they concluded he didn’t have racial motivations in his earlier episode. Just because someone doesn’t hang effigies or some terrible shit doesn’t mean they’re not a racist or an extremist. Guess they just wanted to preemptively deny racism. Just in case. And I don’t trust police or Indiana or America to correctly assess someone’s racial or extremist views given that we as a nation believe we are lost-racial and all).
Post by NewOrleans on Apr 16, 2021 18:46:08 GMT -5
End of the article I posted: But officials believe there is "no further threat," he said.
Until the next shooting. Until the next killer. Until the next white man cracks. Until the next person who needed help can’t or doesn’t get it.
It says police put him on a mental health hold. Is thatt different from a psychiatric facility? Is it treated as criminal in nature? Do people in such situations have access to mental health care, or is it all just police-run?
End of the article I posted: But officials believe there is "no further threat," he said.
Until the next shooting. Until the next killer. Until the next white man cracks. Until the next person who needed help can’t or doesn’t get it.
It says police put him on a mental health hold. Is thatt different from a psychiatric facility? Is it treated as criminal in nature? Do people in such situations have access to mental health care, or is it all just police-run?
Not sure how it works in Indiana, but the way it works in my state, the mental health hold is the same as a psychiatric hold and they are transported to psychiatric or medical facilities (psychiatric hospitals or emergency departments). Whether it's law enforcement or therapists, people are taken to the same places.
One of the problems is that during these holds, they're assessing for immediacy of threat. So it wouldn't be hard for someone to deny that they're going to do anything and deny having access to anything and get released in less than 72 hours. Without any real follow up care.
End of the article I posted: But officials believe there is "no further threat," he said.
Until the next shooting. Until the next killer. Until the next white man cracks. Until the next person who needed help can’t or doesn’t get it.
It says police put him on a mental health hold. Is thatt different from a psychiatric facility? Is it treated as criminal in nature? Do people in such situations have access to mental health care, or is it all just police-run?
It is a 302- meaning involuntary psychiatric hold, it is the same thing, and not necessarily having anything to do with a criminal violation.
The original 302 petition typically allows for a 72hr to 5 days. They get reexamined during that time and have a hearing as to whether or not the doctor feel that can be released. If not, then they can be held up to 3 more weeks at which time there is another hearing and so on.
Alot of times they attempt to keep a continuity of care by moving them to a 201/202 which is a voluntary stay of care but it really depends where you are located and the accessibility of mental health which we all know is fucking fantastic in this country.
End of the article I posted: But officials believe there is "no further threat," he said.
Until the next shooting. Until the next killer. Until the next white man cracks. Until the next person who needed help can’t or doesn’t get it.
It says police put him on a mental health hold. Is thatt different from a psychiatric facility? Is it treated as criminal in nature? Do people in such situations have access to mental health care, or is it all just police-run?
Not sure how it works in Indiana, but the way it works in my state, the mental health hold is the same as a psychiatric hold and they are transported to psychiatric or medical facilities (psychiatric hospitals or emergency departments). Whether it's law enforcement or therapists, people are taken to the same places.
One of the problems is that during these holds, they're assessing for immediacy of threat. So it wouldn't be hard for someone to deny that they're going to do anything and deny having access to anything and get released in less than 72 hours. Without any real follow up care.
After the va tech shooting virginia enacted pretty strict standards. At least at the hospital I was at there are 2 separate psych wards, one for"regular" and one for criminal or suspects. I was called in and an orange jumpsuit shackled guy was just leaving, After 72 hours you have to go before a panel to argue for your release. I don't know under what statute but they can deny this. The panel let me go but my psychiatrist disagreed and refused to write my prescriptions. Fanfuckintastic. I was there because my previous cocktail sent me so everything needed to be adjusted, and I walked out with nothing. At least they paid for my cab home?
Not sure how it works in Indiana, but the way it works in my state, the mental health hold is the same as a psychiatric hold and they are transported to psychiatric or medical facilities (psychiatric hospitals or emergency departments). Whether it's law enforcement or therapists, people are taken to the same places.
One of the problems is that during these holds, they're assessing for immediacy of threat. So it wouldn't be hard for someone to deny that they're going to do anything and deny having access to anything and get released in less than 72 hours. Without any real follow up care.
After the va tech shooting virginia enacted pretty strict standards. At least at the hospital I was at there are 2 separate psych wards, one for"regular" and one for criminal or suspects. I was called in and an orange jumpsuit shackled guy was just leaving, After 72 hours you have to go before a panel to argue for your release. I don't know under what statute but they can deny this. The panel let me go but my psychiatrist disagreed and refused to write my prescriptions. Fanfuckintastic. I was there because my previous cocktail sent me so everything needed to be adjusted, and I walked out with nothing. At least they paid for my cab home?
I think here, if someone is being arrested, they get their psychiatric care at the jail. I know there are a lot of therapists in the jails. But the psychiatric holds only here aren't that strict. The process you're describing is more like when they're trying to keep someone for 2 weeks, or at least to get the 72 hours extended to 2 weeks. I'm not involved in that part, so I can't say. But I'm so sorry, that experience sounds terrible. And to basically just ship you away without the medication you needed and without support is terrible.
As people have mentioned, the standards (for being held short term and for release) and level of care differ greatly by state and specific municipality. It was one of the biggest differences DH saw when moving cross country.
I don’t know what the solution is and it would be really ableist to just think we should relax the standards for involuntary commitment. But the current way of handling it from a year ago did not help him or save these people from being murdered. And then the fucking guns.
Well Indiana officials denied a year before it happened that there was any extremist motivation...
That is so sad. Sikh communities have suffered several times from these tragedies at the hands of others.
ETA with TW: someone I know had a younger brother who was dx’d with bipolar and sociopathy at around age 19. He was also doing many drugs. At one point he barricaded himself in his room at the parents’ by nailing boards across his door inside. They called the police (ugh) who broke it down and carried him out and took him to a hospital where he stayed on suicide watch and if I recall he was naked on a bed with maybe not even a blanket (don’t remember) for 24+ hours. If that is similar to what happened with the murderer... well I guess that would probably terrify or anger people out of ever getting mental health care especially if that is one of their first experiences with it. I know the empty room was because of the suicide watch but how miserable. The brother completed suicide a few years later. They were wealthy and did have acces to care and were not in denial. Even if the gunny people are even half right that our issue is not guns but mental health, we need mental health reform and advocacy / public education NOW.
Post by rondonalddo on Apr 17, 2021 9:04:51 GMT -5
At least in my experience (living in Indiana, a relative with a serious unmedicated mental health condition), it is difficult to prove enough of a threat to have someone held. My relative had been reported for social media posts focused on other people with vague threats. After they got into a physical altercation with the people they had focused on and which landed them in the hospital for their injuries, I think then they had a mandatory hold.
Post by rondonalddo on Apr 17, 2021 9:08:01 GMT -5
And yes, it's really awful for the Sikh community, and I'm not sure how you can act like that has nothing to do with the motivation behind the attack ☹️ And I don't remember if it has been covered in this thread, but the employees were not allowed to have their phones with them while working, which meant that family members did not know for hours if their loved ones were okay.
After the va tech shooting virginia enacted pretty strict standards. At least at the hospital I was at there are 2 separate psych wards, one for"regular" and one for criminal or suspects. I was called in and an orange jumpsuit shackled guy was just leaving, After 72 hours you have to go before a panel to argue for your release. I don't know under what statute but they can deny this. The panel let me go but my psychiatrist disagreed and refused to write my prescriptions. Fanfuckintastic. I was there because my previous cocktail sent me so everything needed to be adjusted, and I walked out with nothing. At least they paid for my cab home?
I think here, if someone is being arrested, they get their psychiatric care at the jail. I know there are a lot of therapists in the jails. But the psychiatric holds only here aren't that strict. The process you're describing is more like when they're trying to keep someone for 2 weeks, or at least to get the 72 hours extended to 2 weeks. I'm not involved in that part, so I can't say. But I'm so sorry, that experience sounds terrible. And to basically just ship you away without the medication you needed and without support is terrible.
Correct. If someone is being arrested and need immediate care they will get sent to a hospital with the police then released to the jail who typically have a MHU and/or RHU floor. Though, based on the information stated it sounds like he was not under arrest at the time of the original psychiatric hold.
Also note, when a 302 is filed, typically by friends, family or police, a warrant is ordered which is why police are often involved in involuntary commitments not necessarily that they had actually committed any crimes.
And I am sorry about your experience. The system is so, so, so fucked up.
One problem (that sibil alluded to) is that temporarily going inpatient (voluntarily or not) is not the first step that it should be in many places - it’s the only step. That and the carceral system can’t be the main source of mental health care. There needs to be a robust public healthcare system including mental health. people need ongoing help both before and after psychiatric crises. I don’t know that it’s the solution to mass violence because I don’t think mass violence is mostly about mental health problems. When we hear that a cop shot someone, we don’t jump straight to mental health. When we hear a wife was killed we don’t jump to mental health. What does it say about our societal expectations of how POC and women should be treated and how cops and male partners should behave that those murders aren’t seen as a sign the killer was mentally ill, but we do think that for other murders?
But proper mental health care it would make a huge difference for our country in so many other ways. Mental health intersects with so many other things.
One problem (that sibil alluded to) is that temporaryily going inpatient (l health. When we hear a wife was killed we don’t jump to mental health. What does it say about our societal expectations of how POC and women should be treated and how cops and male partners should behave that those murders aren’t seen as a sign the killer was mentally ill, but we do think that for other murders?
But proper mental health care it would make a huge difference for our country in so many other ways. Mental health intersects with so many other things.
I’m not here for erasing racism, sexism, and terrorism among white murderers. But having been suicidal and placed in psych a year ago indicates he actually was sick in addition to whatever other fucked up ideologies a white man in red Indiana holds. I’ve also said above that I think it’s gross that they cleared his name from racist extremism a year ago when he was placed in psych. I always assume racism as a motivation for these white killers (fair or not), but he also does have a history of suicidal ideology. That’s why I am discussing mental health in the first place.
Always the guns. We can’t just have the demon of racism, or the demon of illness, etc. We just have to contend with guns in the sickening mix to carry out the demons. And I include police service weapons in with the guns too
sonrisa you raise excellent points. Both about when mental health is raised as a concern and about the need for access to ongoing care.
One of the issues I see in my work is people who are refusing care and aren't *yet* at the point where they're a a danger to themselves or others or unable to care for themselves. Also, therapists have a different perspective on immediacy of threat vs. law enforcement. My county pairs therapists with law enforcement to respond to as many of these situations as possible, which helps.
The therapists try to refer people to programs and services. Some work with people who don't want/think they need care and some will unfortunately reject people for not being "severe enough." The patchwork of services is very difficult, especially when someone has private insurance instead of state-funded insurance. There are so many holes and gaps in the system I could rant about.
One thing I know we have in my county, and I think in my state, are gun violence restraining orders. They are typically requested when someone has a gun confiscated after being determined to be a danger to themself or others. There are other circumstances in which they can be requested. This seems like something that should be nationwide. It also seems like history of DV should be an exclusionary criterion, to a point, because we've seen so many of these mass shooters have a history of DV.
I think reducing access to means is one of the things we add a society really need to take seriously. It's part of threat reduction in therapy, giving up access to means. Not that I think framing it like that will make any difference to staunch 2a-ers.
New orleans - Yes, it is absolutely relevant in this situation. I get wary when people suggest we need mental healthcare as a way to combat mass violence for a few reasons. 1) it takes the onus off of other factors you mentioned. 2) it can stigmatize mentally ill people. Yes there is an intersection between crime and mental illness but people with mental illnesses are much more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators. 3) if we put mental healthcare in place as a solution to violence that affects how we develop those programs, who gets care and what kind of care they receive.
it’s telling that our statutes and solutions to ‘danger to others’ is the same as ‘danger to self’
As people have mentioned, the standards (for being held short term and for release) and level of care differ greatly by state and specific municipality. It was one of the biggest differences DH saw when moving cross country.
And there shouldn't be. It is a fucking disgrace. Just as police training should be federally cohesive, so should mental health. The MH Law of 1974 established expectations but can be interpreted incredibly different within each individual state. Then within those States they can be interpreted by county, which is ridiculous. So, here we are, with the understanding that treatment is based on prosperity and "legal understanding" of the individual state, county, and town....
As people have mentioned, the standards (for being held short term and for release) and level of care differ greatly by state and specific municipality. It was one of the biggest differences DH saw when moving cross country.
And there shouldn't be. It is a fucking disgrace. Just as police training should be federally cohesive, so should mental health. The MH Law of 1974 established expectations but can be interpreted incredibly different within each individual state. Then within those States they can be interpreted by county, which is ridiculous. So, here we are, with the understanding that treatment is based on prosperity and "legal understanding" of the individual state, county, and town....
The individual, every state for itself, every county for itself thing is not working. I don’t mean regarding MH— regarding ANYTHING.
And there shouldn't be. It is a fucking disgrace. Just as police training should be federally cohesive, so should mental health. The MH Law of 1974 established expectations but can be interpreted incredibly different within each individual state. Then within those States they can be interpreted by county, which is ridiculous. So, here we are, with the understanding that treatment is based on prosperity and "legal understanding" of the individual state, county, and town....
The individual, every state for itself, every county for itself thing is not working. I don’t mean regarding MH— regarding ANYTHING.
Exactly. It is fucking ridiculous that we can't offer straight, cohesive, free mental health services along with fucking healthcare.