tacom , I see where you’re coming from on all of that, too…and I don’t disagree at all. This is why I’m just exhausted. I don’t know what to think or who to trust. Everyone seems to have an agenda…and even when people try to be fair, they’re still biased and reporting from their level of risk tolerance.
It’s true that there’s so much we just don’t know. When anyone talks in absolutes, I automatically dismiss them because none of this is clear/easy. But it’s also true that taking large measures to protect kids from Covid brings other risk like the kids who basically lost a year of education because virtual was such a disaster and they had no support at home, or abuse that was missed because no one saw a child, or social delays for kids who have never been able to play with peers in their toddler life. Those are very real risks, too. There’s just no way right now to know which decisions are the right ones. It’s probably different for every child/family. And are we doing the right thing to take measures for ALL kids to protect what all research thus far suggests is a few kids? (We don’t do that for other illnesses/risks.) I would imagine there are lots of dissertations in progress right now looking at the effects of masks & Covid precautions on kids under 5 in regards to language development and social skills. Knowing what we know about the importance of that early exposure, I’m curious to see what we will find about the kids who were 1-2 years old when this all started.
I just don’t think there are any right answers right now. I know you carry extra, very valid, concerns for your family, and I hope this doesn’t come off as diminishing those. It just all feels impossibly hard right now.
You don't come off as diminishing my concerns at all.
I think we agree on more points than you'd think -- like the benefits of offering in person schooling (on a population level) outweigh the harm of keeping children at home. I've solidly been in that camp since late 2020, even if it's not the decision I would make for my individual child. I'm all for weighing the costs and benefits of mitigation strategies and in favor of eliminating those where the harm appears to outweigh the benefit. I'm not in favor of saying "we don't do XYZ for the flu" as if that should be the benchmark when we have no real idea of how COVID compares to the flu for children. It doesn't have to be all or nothing and we can encourage children to pursue their educational, social and developmental pursuits while employing risk reduction strategies (vaccinating adults, encouraging masking when we kids aren't in well ventilated spaces, keeping kids home if they're sick) as the picture becomes more clear.
I got about half way through that NYMag article and my take away was - it is all relative to what your personal risk appetite is. Always has been and always will be. Nothing anyone will say or do may/will change someone else's mind.
We all have our reasons for wanting our kids to be masked (or not), for opting for virtual vs. in-person instruction. Just like we all had our reasons to rear face our children in their car seats for longer (or not). There is always going to be judgement/thoughts on what is better or isn't.
I agree. I think what I’m struggling most with is how I balance my risk tolerance with how it affects others (or how others’ decisions could impact my family). In the example of rear-facing (and most other risk tolerance decisions)…my decision only affects my family. What others choose to do doesn’t impact me in any way. I can be as risk tolerant or risk averse as I want and it really doesn’t impact anyone else. That’s not the case with Covid. I can be comfortable taking risks for my family, but then uncomfortable with what that means for others at higher risk…and then that puts me in a vicious cycle. Do I do what I feel is best for my kids, or do I put what is best for a small group of other children who we may or may not know. How much is enough? How much is too much? When do I put my kids needs above others? Or is that ever OK? Do we know enough to know that it’s truly a risk for those other kids, or is it the unknown that we’re just (understandably) anxious about? Is the anxiety rooted in fact or fear?
I remember in the early days of the pandemic, many of us noted that if all the mitigation strategies worked to slow the spread and reduce covid mortality, it would look like we had done it all for nothing. I guess I wonder why that’s different for children?
I can appreciate that grandparents are much higher risk for morbidity and mortality than children, but it doesn’t mean that kids aren’t at risk and pulling safety measures now because the kids have “always been safe” seems a little like rolling dice.
I live in an area with high vaccination coverage and our pediatric case numbers are increasing (not just as a portion of the whole, gross numbers). So I’ll be watching to see what happens over the coming months. Hopefully my apprehension is all for nothing. That would be a very happy finding.
It's definitely a little like rolling the dice. There is a large part of the country where kids were never isolated though. The arguments that we kept them socially distant and masked don't really work because well, in many places that isn't true. Here kids wore masks to school last year and that is it. I'm not saying that is right or wrong. At this point I really don't know. I think both arguments have ton of merit. Kids are at risk from Covid. Kids are also at risk from a ton of other things that we accept on a daily basis. The risk equation is also more complicated for some than others. It makes it all really hard.
I hear you, but I disagree with the bolded. I don't know how to make sense of only one pediatric influenza death in the 2020-2021 season if it weren't for the nationwide influence of population based mitigation strategies (exactly like masking in school), regardless of whatever size of the population as a whole did not employ them. Less of X circulating in a population of children means that even if those who aren't employing safety strategies are safer. It doesn't make sense to me that population level changes would basically eliminate flu transmission (and flu deaths/hospitalizations) without having a large impact on COVID transmission (and likely hospitalizations/deaths) as well.
It's definitely a little like rolling the dice. There is a large part of the country where kids were never isolated though. The arguments that we kept them socially distant and masked don't really work because well, in many places that isn't true. Here kids wore masks to school last year and that is it. I'm not saying that is right or wrong. At this point I really don't know. I think both arguments have ton of merit. Kids are at risk from Covid. Kids are also at risk from a ton of other things that we accept on a daily basis. The risk equation is also more complicated for some than others. It makes it all really hard.
I hear you, but I disagree with the bolded. I don't know how to make sense of only one pediatric influenza death in the 2020-2021 season if it weren't for the nationwide influence of population based mitigation strategies (exactly like masking in school), regardless of whatever size of the population as a whole did not employ them. Less of X circulating in a population of children means that even if those who aren't employing safety strategies are safer. It doesn't make sense to me that population level changes would basically eliminate flu transmission (and flu deaths/hospitalizations) without having a large impact on COVID transmission (and likely hospitalizations/deaths) as well.
The lack of flu last year is so interesting to me. Lack of international travel? Simply Covid pushed it out? I can’t wait to learn the reasons why.
I got about half way through that NYMag article and my take away was - it is all relative to what your personal risk appetite is. Always has been and always will be. Nothing anyone will say or do may/will change someone else's mind.
We all have our reasons for wanting our kids to be masked (or not), for opting for virtual vs. in-person instruction. Just like we all had our reasons to rear face our children in their car seats for longer (or not). There is always going to be judgement/thoughts on what is better or isn't.
I agree. I think what I’m struggling most with is how I balance my risk tolerance with how it affects others (or how others’ decisions could impact my family). In the example of rear-facing (and most other risk tolerance decisions)…my decision only affects my family. What others choose to do doesn’t impact me in any way. I can be as risk tolerant or risk averse as I want and it really doesn’t impact anyone else. That’s not the case with Covid. I can be comfortable taking risks for my family, but then uncomfortable with what that means for others at higher risk…and then that puts me in a vicious cycle. Do I do what I feel is best for my kids, or do I put what is best for a small group of other children who we may or may not know. How much is enough? How much is too much? When do I put my kids needs above others? Or is that ever OK? Do we know enough to know that it’s truly a risk for those other kids, or is it the unknown that we’re just (understandably) anxious about? Is the anxiety rooted in fact or fear?
Too many questions. I need a nap.
You are right - the rear facing analogy wasn't the best but it was the first I could think of in the moment.
The answer here is for you to not have a conscience and just go about your life. <-- that is sarcasm. I love that you're thinking of others and not just yourself. If we all did that, I think we would be in a much better place. It is something I try to teach BB - that often we need to think of others, not just ourselves.
I agree. I think what I’m struggling most with is how I balance my risk tolerance with how it affects others (or how others’ decisions could impact my family). In the example of rear-facing (and most other risk tolerance decisions)…my decision only affects my family. What others choose to do doesn’t impact me in any way. I can be as risk tolerant or risk averse as I want and it really doesn’t impact anyone else. That’s not the case with Covid. I can be comfortable taking risks for my family, but then uncomfortable with what that means for others at higher risk…and then that puts me in a vicious cycle. Do I do what I feel is best for my kids, or do I put what is best for a small group of other children who we may or may not know. How much is enough? How much is too much? When do I put my kids needs above others? Or is that ever OK? Do we know enough to know that it’s truly a risk for those other kids, or is it the unknown that we’re just (understandably) anxious about? Is the anxiety rooted in fact or fear?
Too many questions. I need a nap.
You are right - the rear facing analogy wasn't the best but it was the first I could think of in the moment.
The answer here is for you to not have a conscience and just go about your life. <-- that is sarcasm. I love that you're thinking of others and not just yourself. If we all did that, I think we would be in a much better place. It is something I try to teach BB - that often we need to think of others, not just ourselves.
Influenza vaccinations were up. And influenza has a lower RO. Covid is a little more tricky in that there is more spread before a person is symptomatic and it tends to make a person less sick at the onset.
6 districts in my county and one decided this week to make masks optional. I imagine the rest will follow. Our school board meeting is tomorrow night and I'm expecting it to be full of anti masking whackos. With school board elections coming up (and packed primaries in early August for those races) they are going to go the path of least resistance.
It's definitely a little like rolling the dice. There is a large part of the country where kids were never isolated though. The arguments that we kept them socially distant and masked don't really work because well, in many places that isn't true. Here kids wore masks to school last year and that is it. I'm not saying that is right or wrong. At this point I really don't know. I think both arguments have ton of merit. Kids are at risk from Covid. Kids are also at risk from a ton of other things that we accept on a daily basis. The risk equation is also more complicated for some than others. It makes it all really hard.
I hear you, but I disagree with the bolded. I don't know how to make sense of only one pediatric influenza death in the 2020-2021 season if it weren't for the nationwide influence of population based mitigation strategies (exactly like masking in school), regardless of whatever size of the population as a whole did not employ them. Less of X circulating in a population of children means that even if those who aren't employing safety strategies are safer. It doesn't make sense to me that population level changes would basically eliminate flu transmission (and flu deaths/hospitalizations) without having a large impact on COVID transmission (and likely hospitalizations/deaths) as well.
This video goes into the theory of the much lower incidence of the flu this past year because Covid and the flu compete with each other, so a high rate of one will mean a low rate of the other — www.instagram.com/tv/CKy3uD7JE9d/?igshid=1t9zz8w74eeop
I hear you, but I disagree with the bolded. I don't know how to make sense of only one pediatric influenza death in the 2020-2021 season if it weren't for the nationwide influence of population based mitigation strategies (exactly like masking in school), regardless of whatever size of the population as a whole did not employ them. Less of X circulating in a population of children means that even if those who aren't employing safety strategies are safer. It doesn't make sense to me that population level changes would basically eliminate flu transmission (and flu deaths/hospitalizations) without having a large impact on COVID transmission (and likely hospitalizations/deaths) as well.
The lack of flu last year is so interesting to me. Lack of international travel? Simply Covid pushed it out? I can’t wait to learn the reasons why.
Travel appears the reason. The flu never got a chance to seed itself in the Northern Hemisphere last year because of comparatively little travel from the Southern Hemisphere.
So…then what? We’re basically closer to normal now compared to last summer and fall. Kids will be back in school (with mask requirements different from district to district though). I know some countries in the Southern Hemisphere are locked down but I’m not sure travel is as low as it was last year. Will this be the year we get the double whammy with covid and the flu like we expected last winter, and if so, will that have a bigger impact on kids?
The lack of flu last year is so interesting to me. Lack of international travel? Simply Covid pushed it out? I can’t wait to learn the reasons why.
Travel appears the reason. The flu never got a chance to seed itself in the Northern Hemisphere last year because of comparatively little travel from the Southern Hemisphere.
So…then what? We’re basically closer to normal now compared to last summer and fall. Kids will be back in school (with mask requirements different from district to district though). Will this be the year we get the double whammy with covid and the flu like we expected last winter, and if so, will that have a bigger impact on kids?
Yeah I have to admit I’m more worried about the flu than Covid this year. We will all get our shots ASAP. I think it will storm back with a vengeance.
We saw at the end of last school year colds, strep, and stomach bugs come back. Now RSV. Flu will be next.
Post by Velar Fricative on Jul 14, 2021 14:10:15 GMT -5
I do take issue with comparing illnesses and impacts to a year of social distancing. It’s just not enough to draw conclusions of just how dangerous covid is in kids compared to flu, etc. BUT, we do know that nearly 4 million American children have tested positive since March 2020. Because of shit testing infrastructure in the early months, mild or no symptoms in kids and testing hesitation and imperfections, the true number is very likely higher. And we do have data about how many children have been hospitalized with covid or MIS-C or have died. And the data is clear that severity is lower in children versus adults. OTOH, the verdict is still out on delta and future mutations, plus there’s all the other crud kids get sick with in normal years.
That was all a bunch of word vomit, I know. This is how I go back and forth between being more anxious and less anxious.
I do take issue with comparing illnesses and impacts to a year of social distancing. It’s just not enough to draw conclusions of just how dangerous covid is in kids compared to flu, etc. BUT, we do know that nearly 4 million American children have tested positive since March 2020. Because of shit testing infrastructure in the early months, mild or no symptoms in kids and testing hesitation and imperfections, the true number is very likely higher. And we do have data about how many children have been hospitalized with covid or MIS-C or have died. And the data is clear that severity is lower in children versus adults. OTOH, the verdict is still out on delta and future mutations, plus there’s all the other crud kids get sick with in normal years.
That was all a bunch of word vomit, I know. This is how I go back and forth between being more anxious and less anxious.
This is how I feel- just a constant back and forth. We had been doing some indoor things with our kids- we ate indoors twice, they went to the Franklin Institute today on a field trip, we’ll be in the Met this weekend- but with case numbers keep going up I feel like our window to do those things is quickly closing. Luckily our city still has an average of something like 25 cases a day out of 1.6 million people, but I’m watching it closely. Im sure they’ll be back in school, but who knows what it will look like. I cannot wait until they can get vaccinated.
I will say I’m using this summer the way I wish I had used last summer- everyone in the house has had their check ups, dental appointments, I’ve seen the ob and the dermatologist next week, hopefully this way if god forbid things go sideways again we’re at least covered there.
I saw this on CNN and thought people here would be interested. I haven't seen an update on the vaccine approval for kids in a while. Looks like Pfizer is optimistic but drs are skeptical.
Pfizer's vaccine study is enrolling more than 4,600 children in three age groups: 5-to-11-year-olds; 2-to-5-year-olds; and babies 6 months up to age 2.
Data for children 5 to 11 could come sometime in September and depending on the findings, the company told CNN it could ask the US Food and Drug Administration to authorize emergency use of the vaccine that same month.
Data for 2-to-5-year-olds could arrive soon after. For the youngest children, Pfizer said it could potentially get data in October or November, and shortly thereafter ask the FDA to authorize emergency use.
Emergency use considerations by the FDA can take several weeks, meaning a vaccine for younger children likely won't be available until late fall or even next year.
"The companies have said the fall ... I'd be surprised if they can move that quickly, although I suppose it's possible," Dr. Peter Hotez, a vaccinologist and dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine, said.
"I can't imagine that we'd be in a position to even consider how to use these vaccines until the very end of the calendar year of 2021, going into the first quarter of 2022," said Dr. Buddy Creech, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at Vanderbilt University and one of the lead investigators for Moderna's pediatric Covid-19 vaccine. "I love that we're riding the success of how quickly we were able to get a vaccine for adults, but we've just got to be patient."
Thanks for sharing noodleoo. I was really hoping for Sept/Oct based on info we had weeks ago, but at this point I will take anything.
meganew, The Met requires masks regardless of vaccination status - and when we went to the Cloisters we saw everyone complying - there were no chin masks. Enjoy your trip!
I thought this article was very interesting. I think it has been the most comprehensive article I have read to date about kids, risk and schools. Tons of studies are linked in the article and it is quite long so save it for when you have time to digest. Also ignore the title, it is set up to get your attention. The article is not as dismissive as the title would suggest.
I have talked about before how I am really working on adjusting my expectations as we approach a new school year. I have become more comfortable with some risk in exchange for my kids to be able to return to normalcy. Obviously this article fits into the narrative I am on as we open our world back up. So there might be some bias in why I really appreciated the read.
To counter this a bit, a recent discussion by UNMC Dr that suggests not enough accurate data really.
"It seems pretty clear the Delta variant is much more transmissible than the previous alpha variant...it is much more likely to cause severe disease..." Dr. Lawler explores why its necessary to reexamine mitigation measures for kids in school.
Also the article said 20,000 Nebraska students and 2 cases?? I'm in Nebraska and have never heard that stat. Anyone know where they got it? A study by UNMC showed more cases then what was reported.
Emergency authorization for Covid-19 vaccines in children under 12 could come in early to midwinter, a Food and Drug Administration official said Thursday, a move that could bring relief to many parents who have been unable to vaccinate their children. The agency hopes to then move quickly to full approval of the vaccine for this age group.
Emergency authorization for Covid-19 vaccines in children under 12 could come in early to midwinter, a Food and Drug Administration official said Thursday, a move that could bring relief to many parents who have been unable to vaccinate their children. The agency hopes to then move quickly to full approval of the vaccine for this age group.
I'm starting to get nervous about taking my unvaxxed 10 year old. We are supposed to fly to see my parents in 2 weeks. I was feeling fine about it a couple of weeks ago (she's a reliable double masker, and we'll have the whole row on the plane). Now I'm getting anxious about it. We haven't seen them in more than 2 years
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
I'm starting to get nervous about taking my unvaxxed 10 year old. We are supposed to fly to see my parents in 2 weeks. I was feeling fine about it a couple of weeks ago (she's a reliable double masker, and we'll have the whole row on the plane). Now I'm getting anxious about it. We haven't seen them in more than 2 years
2 years is a long time. As long as she's a reliable masker, with double-masking even better, I'd still go. I'm very much prioritizing activities I need to do for my sanity in case there is any upheaval later on, and visiting family I haven't seen in a while is at the top. But, we don't have to fly - still, in your case, I'd go and just protect yourselves as much as you can.
Post by gretchenindisguise on Jul 16, 2021 11:42:22 GMT -5
L gets their first vaccine this afternoon. Their favorite birthday present was their drawing tablet. My favorite birthday present for them is their fauci ouchie.
Eta: vaccine #1 is in the books. So excited! Now if only the 6 would be eligible before Christmas.
erbear, I agree with Velar Fricative. It is nerve-racking for sure, but since she is 10 and reliable with masking, I would do it. I hope you can enjoy your time with family.
I'm starting to get nervous about taking my unvaxxed 10 year old. We are supposed to fly to see my parents in 2 weeks. I was feeling fine about it a couple of weeks ago (she's a reliable double masker, and we'll have the whole row on the plane). Now I'm getting anxious about it. We haven't seen them in more than 2 years
You could also get her a KN95. The FDA has published a list of reliable manufacturers and many of them you can get on Amazon. That's what I did with my unvaxxed DS when we flew to Fla in June.
I just booked my kid’s appointment for the day after his birthday. It’s at the end of august, so he won’t be fully vaxxed by the time school starts, but it’s something.
I really hope the younger kids can get it before the end of the year. I’m kind of mad about not seeking emergency approval to appease the antivaxxers (does anyone think that will actually work?), but I can see the optics being terrible if they go for emergency approval and don’t get it.
I’m just glad there was an update on the timeline and a hint of an explanation (gathering 4-6 months of data versus 2). I appreciate information to help with decision making and will now be putting down a third preschool deposit for an outdoor only program with 100% teacher vaccination rate.
I’m just glad there was an update on the timeline and a hint of an explanation (gathering 4-6 months of data versus 2). I appreciate information to help with decision making and will now be putting down a third preschool deposit for an outdoor only program with 100% teacher vaccination rate.
Any recommendations for toddler sized rain suits?
Tuffo Muddy Buddy suits are awesome. My DS wore one when we lived in Alaska and was always dry!
tacom I'm so jealous of your outdoor only preschool program! I know my toddler needs the socialization after so much isolation but I'm very anxious about sending her to preschool in September. I know all the teachers are vaccinated but it's indoors and obviously, I don't know what the other kids' parents are like or if they've been vaccinated. I'm wondering if we're going to have to make our own decision about having our toddler mask up. She's really good about it under short-term circumstances but three hours would be a stretch for her.
Post by sillygoosegirl on Jul 17, 2021 10:16:42 GMT -5
What bothers me the most about the comparisons to the flu is that according to the doctors I work with, Americans do not take the flu nearly as seriously as we should. They've been beating that drum for many years.
Also, I don't send my kid to school without her flu shot. Those of us who vaccinate against the flu have always accepted a much lower risk from it than the many who don't.