@ Snoo - parental judgment, anxiety and privilege

[maddiepaddy]

Jul 14, 2021 9:45:42 GMT -5 shopgirl07 said:

I’m so confused about the judgment. People really say you’re cheating if you use the snoo? Like, what?

Right? Probably the same jerks that shame C-section moms.

[loira]

I had PPA and my DD was a unicorn sleeper. If she hadn't been a good sleeper it would definitely have made my PPA worse and I would have wanted something like this for sure except I never would have been able to afford it. My H had just finished his PhD and we were living with my parents and bought almost everything used or on deep discount.

[sonrisa]

Jul 14, 2021 9:45:42 GMT -5 shopgirl07 said:

I’m so confused about the judgment. People really say you’re cheating if you use the snoo? Like, what?

I remember articles from when I was a teen about those spoiled rich people who thought they could  have a kid if they wanted to with IVF rather than living with infertility.

There will always be assholes who turn it into a morality play and complain. 

[DotAndBuzz]

I'm 10 years out of this battle, but the device gives me pause. My kids were the shittiest of shitty sleepers (the first one in particular). I 100% get the need for parent sleep. I am pretty sure I had undiagnosed PPD, I didn't bond with my first until she was about 6-8 months old (was actually frighteningly indifferent towards her), and I'm certain the intense sleep deprivation had something to do with that.

But...

I'm also pretty nervous/skeptical about any sleep assist device in terms of safety. I don't know the solution, because it's really a societal shift that we need, to support moms (and dads) during the newborn stage, but even with my shit sleepers, I don't think I would have bought one of these. I hope it does pass some sort of testing/review system if it truly does help with safe sleep - babies and parents are happier with good sleep.

My bff has one and loves it. My cousin registered for a 6 month rental. I get that people seem to love it, and don't begrudge parents their sleep. I just don't think I could jump on board with one, personally.

[sonrisa]

Jul 14, 2021 12:35:10 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

My kid is a teen and his infant sleep is still this vicseral thing for me. It was probably borderline to the point that my kid was in danger from me because I was so sleep deprived. I should have done a ton of "bad" stuff for his own safety and mine. But I was following the rules so I didn't (I wasn't even anxious about it I am just a rule follower).

If I did it again I would totally let my kid sleep in a RNP or Snoop or on his stomach or whatever. Not that I would ever do it again and the reason is 100% sleep.

I'm here (even though my kids are a little younger).

I had hallucinations from lack of sleep. My marriage definitely was affected and in some ways still is. I can remember the day I took the baby out for a walk and my husband came back because he forgot something. He called my mom and they scoured the area because they were afraid I'd pulled an Emily Dickinson and walked us into the bay with stones in my pockets. 

[pinkpeony08]

I would 100% have bought/rented this for my now 8 year old who woke as often as every 20-30 minutes some nights. All night. If it gave me 2-3 uninterrupted hour stretches, it would even have been amazing. We tried everything. She was just a colicky, challenging infant who didn't sleep.

[secretagent]

My kids are elementary age and this talk is spiking my anxiety. One of my kids didn't sleep more than 4 hrs until 18 months. None slept through the night by any standard until 9 mo and I'm not sure any of them have ever slept 12 hrs in a row in their lives. My SIL (who's kids are younger than mine and magic unicorn sleepers) is all "we sleep trained and see how perfect they are" (like we never thought of that). Ugh. New day, new thing to parent shame.

[af1212]

Jul 14, 2021 13:56:17 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Jul 14, 2021 9:45:42 GMT -5 shopgirl07 said:

I’m so confused about the judgment. People really say you’re cheating if you use the snoo? Like, what?

I remember articles from when I was a teen about those spoiled rich people who thought they could  have a kid if they wanted to with IVF rather than living with infertility.

There will always be assholes who turn it into a morality play and complain. 

Can you explain this? I’m not following.

[abs]

I have no dog in this fight because my kid is now 10 and all I have to do is say good night and leave the room.

I so remember the days of screaming though and crying along with her because I was so dang tired. She slept in a swing, a RnP, and on zero flat surface until she was like 7 months old. I cannot and will not judge a new mom for doing what they need to in order to sleep. It's not like we really give any education or support to new moms. It's literally here is your baby, goodbye and good luck. If this helps then great.

[sonrisa]

Jul 14, 2021 14:48:49 GMT -5 af1212 said:

Jul 14, 2021 13:56:17 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

I remember articles from when I was a teen about those spoiled rich people who thought they could  have a kid if they wanted to with IVF rather than living with infertility.

There will always be assholes who turn it into a morality play and complain. 

Can you explain this? I’m not following.

To me, this is part of a long standing trend of shaming women for making expensive decisions that make pregnancy, birth and child rearing more possible and bearable. Whether its labor pain management, anything related to childcare, fertility, birthing centers, anything related to sleep, etc. 

[af1212]

Jul 14, 2021 14:57:21 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Jul 14, 2021 14:48:49 GMT -5 af1212 said:

Can you explain this? I’m not following.

To me, this is part of a long standing trend of shaming women for making expensive decisions that make pregnancy, birth and child rearing more possible and bearable. Whether its labor pain management, anything related to childcare, fertility, birthing centers, anything related to sleep, etc. 

Thank you this makes sense.

[wanderingback]

Jul 14, 2021 10:05:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jul 14, 2021 9:45:42 GMT -5 shopgirl07 said:

I’m so confused about the judgment. People really say you’re cheating if you use the snoo? Like, what?

It's motherhood. If you figure out a way to wear your baby, then you're cheating because you figured out a way to hold your kid while having your hands free.  

Omg, white women are insufferable. Indigenous, African and Black people have been wearing their babies since the beginning of time. That is not cheating!

[pixy0stix]

Jul 14, 2021 15:01:03 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jul 14, 2021 10:05:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

It's motherhood. If you figure out a way to wear your baby, then you're cheating because you figured out a way to hold your kid while having your hands free.  

Omg, white women are insufferable. Indigenous, African and Black people have been wearing their babies since the beginning of time. That is not cheating!

It was more tongue in cheek, but we absolutely judge each other on the wrap/style. Some people buy $$$$ wraps and there's judgement on each side about "you're paying for quality" and "but this cheap $50 one works just as well!". 

[wawa]

I don't even know what I want to say about this. I HATE that parenting is one of those things we judge so hard on. From an armchair psych POV, I think it makes sense. It's all so uncertain, and we don't know if we're actually doing it right and it's SUCH a high stakes activity (it's an entire human! WTF!) that you grasp for anything to make yourself feel better about the choices you're making because even the most relaxed and confident parent has a topic somewhere along the way where they aren't sure if they're making the right choices. And for people who aren't good at feelings or self-awareness or just need a fuckton of therapy - that comes out in judging the shit out of others because then you get to prop up your own uncertainty and discomfort.

But for fucks sake could we just NOT? Or at least not in our out loud voices?

The "this was hard for me thus it must be hard for you" crowd. The "oh well, must be nice you rich asshole" crowd. The "well if you don't buy x I mean, are you even TRYING?" crowd. They all just need to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. Mind your business people.

Also maybe this wouldn't be such a goddamn fraught topic if parents were headed back to work when their kids are still bitsy infants anyway, which raises the hell out of the stakes.

And in conclusion - I hate the name snoo. That is all.

[waverly]

Jul 14, 2021 15:35:44 GMT -5 wawa said:

I don't even know what I want to say about this. I HATE that parenting is one of those things we judge so hard on. From an armchair psych POV, I think it makes sense. It's all so uncertain, and we don't know if we're actually doing it right and it's SUCH a high stakes activity (it's an entire human! WTF!) that you grasp for anything to make yourself feel better about the choices you're making because even the most relaxed and confident parent has a topic somewhere along the way where they aren't sure if they're making the right choices. And for people who aren't good at feelings or self-awareness or just need a fuckton of therapy - that comes out in judging the shit out of others because then you get to prop up your own uncertainty and discomfort.

But for fucks sake could we just NOT? Or at least not in our out loud voices?

The "this was hard for me thus it must be hard for you" crowd. The "oh well, must be nice you rich asshole" crowd. The "well if you don't buy x I mean, are you even TRYING?" crowd. They all just need to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. Mind your business people.

Also maybe this wouldn't be such a goddamn fraught topic if parents were headed back to work when their kids are still bitsy infants anyway, which raises the hell out of the stakes.

And in conclusion - I hate the name snoo. That is all.

wawa , I agree, I hate that parenting is a major thing to judge on. It's a very vulnerable time for mom, and everyone just lines up to judge her. I felt pretty confident myself as a parent although I did have lots of questions. My pregnancy was a disaster, and I knew control was an illusion. But I definitely had a friend that embodied what you said, "And for people who aren't good at feelings or self-awareness or just need a fuckton of therapy - that comes out in judging the shit out of others because then you get to prop up your own uncertainty and discomfort." And we definitely are not friends anymore.

It's just such a hard time for moms that I feel like everyone should be super supportive. I agree with the other bolded sentence too.  My kid was hospitalized with RSV from daycare at 7 months old.  If I had the first year off, I am sure that wouldn't have happened.  I realize I can't control germs but the daycare situation was extreme germs for my child specifically, and also due to the time of year he was born which was starting daycare in the beginning of the cold/ flu season. 

[terpsfan]

Nothing new to add but just checking in on I would have totally bought this 14 years ago. I was a gigantic Happiest Baby fan (my DD slept with very loud swoooshing noise and bounced to sleep for an entire year). She was a colicky craptastic sleeper who didn’t STTN till 2. I had such PPA from non sleep… She’s now almost 14 and I can’t get her out of bed.

[erbear]

Wouldn’t it be nice if women (well, the world) could just support new parents for once? Le sigh. I’m so glad to be out of the judgy everything stage (apparently when you are old / have older kids, you learn to not give a shit!)

[Gato]

My second kid was a terrible, terrible sleeper, and when she was awake she was colicky. I recently found a journal I kept during the first four months of her life. My lactation consultant recommended recording her feedings, pees and poops, but it expanded to also include hours slept and hours crying because that became such a huge issue. It confirmed what I remembered; she never once napped more than two hours *total* during the day from day 2 on, and woke up to nurse 3-4 times every night. Nobody could figure out a physical reason why.

I just know that this all got much better when we bought a Rock ‘n Play. This was before all the safety issues were made public, and honestly I’m just glad I didn’t know, because that thing legit saved my sanity. Finally, I got five hours straight without crying. Wearing her—and I tried many different carriers—did nothing. She hated them all. Car rides were a nightmare; she hated those, too, and never slept. Thank god for my slightly less than perfectly safe rocker. If the Snoo achieved the same results, I would have happily racked up debt on my credit card. Having that experience means I don’t judge anything anymore (short of abuse) about raising babies.

[cville]

If this thing had existed when my son was 3 months old and still only sleeping 1.5-2 hour stretches MAX (in the RNP because he didn't sleep at all flat because he spit up constantly on his own face), I would have ordered this thing at 3am from my phone and paid rush overnight shipping. While crying. Everyone I know who has/used one has had an amazing experience.

As it was, only with the help of an SSRI did I make it to when he finally slept "through the night" at 18 mos. Thanks, science.

My first was a unicorn sleeper. It was easier. Sleep makes things easier. Yay sleep.

[eddy]

You know how much your body is in survival mode once you start getting good sleep again. Then one random night your kid doesn’t sleep well and you feel as if you have been hit by a truck and it takes days to recover. And then you think “how the fuck did I do that for months/years” 😫

[waverly]

I had PPA with both kids. It magically went away with my first once I started sleeping again.

With my second I was smart enough to get on Lexapro but I reacted to the medicine, so I only took it 1-2 months. It was enough to get me through until I was sleeping better.

I am not taking away from the severity of PPD and PPA, and I understand it can happen when someone is getting their full sleep. But in mine and other cases, I wonder what percent was PPA and what percent was just pure torturous sleep deprivation.

[expectantsteelerfan]

Jul 14, 2021 12:35:10 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

The issue with wanting specific government groups (or AAP) to approve this stuff is they always seem to favor baby over everything else. No one cares about the parents (aka mother let's be real).

My kid is a teen and his infant sleep is still this vicseral thing for me. It was probably borderline to the point that my kid was in danger from me because I was so sleep deprived. I should have done a ton of "bad" stuff for his own safety and mine. But I was following the rules so I didn't (I wasn't even anxious about it I am just a rule follower).

If I did it again I would totally let my kid sleep in a RNP or Snoop or on his stomach or whatever. Not that I would ever do it again and the reason is 100% sleep.

I'm here too.  I would have been devastated to not be able to afford to try this had it been around when my ds was a newborn 12 years ago.  At the time, there was some sort of foam wedge thing that was contoured to keep them from rolling off (that I'm 99% sure went the way of the rock n play for safety issues), but it was recommended at the time for babies like ds with reflux who could only sleep inclined, and I remember the internal turmoil over trying to budget to afford that (and I think it was like $100) on the CHANCE it might help him sleep but probably wouldn't.  And I STILL have emotions about the tough position I found myself in with ds having to decide which of my 'unsafe' choices was best (I ended up co-sleeping with him on my shoulder as I lay propped up on the couch until we sleep trained at 4 months to the day, the only other place he EVER slept more than 45 min. at a time was his car seat).  For us, it wasn't just that he woke up every 45 min., it was that he woke up SCREAMING and inconsolable every time and took hours of rocking and shushing and swaddling and then swaddling tighter and stepping outside for fresh air and then walking and rocking and shushing some more EVERY TIME HE WOKE.  When I coslept with him, I'd still wake every time he stirred and I'd pre-emptively rock and shush him, and he'd settle back down and that was the only thing that worked until we sleep trained.  If I knew there was a machine that could do that for me so I could sleep for more than 45 minutes at a time, it seriously would have killed me to know we couldn't afford it. 

[noodleoo]

Jul 14, 2021 17:43:21 GMT -5 eddy said:

You know how much your body is in survival mode once you start getting good sleep again. Then one random night your kid doesn’t sleep well and you feel as if you have been hit by a truck and it takes days to recover. And then you think “how the fuck did I do that for months/years” 😫

ACCURATE.

[grover]

We rented two when we had the twins. The twins were born right at the recall on the RnPs. Well, to be fair, my MIL paid for the rental for our crappy sleeping twin. The first night in it we got two really decent stretches of sleep, so my H immediately signed us up for a second rental on our dime for the other twin. (We also had a new 2 year old, and H went back to work at day 5 being gone 12 hours/day with no other help on my 8 week leave.)

At first, I loved it. Then I saw random comments about it not actually being safe and I started to be anxious at night which caused me not to sleep. In the end, we had the two rentals for two months if I remember, maybe three total? The boys transitioned just fine to the crib, the better sleeper had maybe one or two nights with one wake up when he was normally 0-1, even though we did not use their suggested transition plan- we were poor after my 8 week maternity leave, and returned the rental on my first day of summer vaca. I did feel better when I learned that our pediatrician was also using one with her infant born shortly after the boys.

[Jalapeñomel]

I let daycare potty train. I would’ve been content doing another year of diapers. Lol

[tacom]

melmaria my son pee trained in a day and is finally consistently pooping in the potty (instead of waiting for nap/bedtime diapers) after… six months. May yours be quicker. We also PTed when I was pregnant. Sucks extra when you cannot have a drink.

[bears]

Jul 14, 2021 20:52:46 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

I let daycare potty train. I would’ve been content doing another year of diapers. Lol

Daycare took the lead, but it was still terrible. I would have gladly sent my children away to potty training boot camp for two weeks if it had been an option.

[Velar Fricative]

Jul 14, 2021 20:52:46 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

I let daycare potty train. I would’ve been content doing another year of diapers. Lol

This was my plan until…pandemic. And then I would have felt like an asshole returning her to daycare without being PTed when we didn’t go anywhere for months lol.

[jewel]

My first baby was so awful, and I had undiagnosed PPA, and I didn’t realize any of this was unusual because it was my first time at parenting.

At the time, I bought everything and did everything I could to try to get him to sleep better. I was so sleep deprived, it because dangerous for both of us. I would have paid far more than $1500 for anything that would have worked. AAP recommendations exist in a relative vacuum - the RNP is now known to be unsafe, but if I were in the situation I were in with my first, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it, or the snoo, or anything similar. Maybe I’d add the owl sock too, but really severe parental sleep deprivation is dangerous too.

[sparkythelawyer]

Jul 14, 2021 12:02:02 GMT -5 sent said:

Jul 13, 2021 23:38:25 GMT -5 Aquatica said:

When DD was born, MamaRoo was a thing. Hearing others talk about it and rave that it was the 'best thing ever' made me feel...left out and very poor. Sure, my baby had the basics but it seemed to create a divide within the parenting groups by not having these expensive items and it sucked feeling left out all over again, while trying to find a connect after having a baby and already feeling so 'am I doing this right?'.

I fell for the Mamaroo. DD screamed in it every time we tried to put her in it. One day it stopped working and I was like "YES!!!!!!" I could only return the opened product to Buy Buy Baby if it was broken. They plugged it in to test it for themselves and then gave me $300 in gift cards to go buy something else. 

When I finally surrendered and returned the Mamaroo my kiddo only barely tolerated (She preferred the crappy $5 used swing my MIL got from one of her patients that the music player was broken on so it sounded like it belonged in a haunted house) we had a diaper fund that lasted months.