AHP: The Masters Trap

[bears]

Two part think piece by Anne Helen Peterson (AHP) on Masters Degrees that are used to prop up academic departments:

annehelen.substack.com/p/the-masters-trap
annehelen.substack.com/p/the-masters-trap-part-two-069

The piece focuses on the predatory practice of funneling people who are rejected from humanities big name PhD programs into MA programs that don't necessarily have much value. Also focuses on credentialing or requiring Masters degress by some fiends (journalism, libraries) as a form of gatekeeping.

[tacokick]

I wish the articles got more into this at other schools in a wider cross section but it was very interesting.

I’ve often thought that about becoming a librarian. As a child I had thought it would be an interesting career (I was hesitant about the schedule though) but it seemed very expensive to have get a MA for what librarians get paid. Unless you are a specialized librarian of some sort, I don’t see why that can’t just be a BA. Even then, why not get the BA in library studies and then a MA in a specialized field? I ended up with a MA in education that was paid for by the school system. I didn’t see that scenario as an opportunity for future librarians or I might have done that. It really does shut people out. I was from a low income family/first gen college student and I couldn’t see taking on all that debt for that wage.

[bears]

I have my MS in a biology-related field and there are very few people in my field who paid for their own graduate degree. My cohorts and I were funded through grants and teaching so that we didn't pay tuition and draw a (small) salary. I wish this sort of experience could be common in other fields--particularly those like MSW programs where there could be a greater societal benefit.

I know so many librarians and all of them were educated at state schools. One of my friends had been planning to go out of state for her masters and the department head sat her down and said, "You need to defer for a year and establish your residency here. Otherwise, you'll never be able to repay your debt from out of state tuition."

I had planned on getting a PhD and working in academia; within 2 weeks of starting my graduate program I decided that academic life was not what I wanted (An addition 3-5 years of school, + post-docs, + competitive job market, + tenure hamster wheel) and decided my MS would be terminal. Not working in academia, I really struggle to see why a PhD is required for so many jobs where it is required. I only see an incremental benefit in a PhD in my field and I think additional work experience is far more valuable in most cases.

[bears]

Jul 25, 2021 13:44:57 GMT -5 tacokick said:

it seemed very expensive to have get a MA for what librarians get paid. Unless you are a specialized librarian of some sort, I don’t see why that can’t just be a BA. 

I think her point that organizations are outsourcing their training to universities is valid here.

[tacokick]

Jul 25, 2021 14:09:12 GMT -5 bears said:

Jul 25, 2021 13:44:57 GMT -5 tacokick said:

it seemed very expensive to have get a MA for what librarians get paid. Unless you are a specialized librarian of some sort, I don’t see why that can’t just be a BA. 

I think her point that organizations are outsourcing their training to universities is valid here.

That’s true but librarian jobs have required a MA since the at least the 1940s (the first MA program was in the late 1920s and quickly became the norm) so this isn’t a “new” trend the way the other programs she discussed are. This coincided with the spread of neighborhood libraries thanks to the Carnegie (and other philanthropist sponsored) libraries in the US. Before the 1920s librarians are largely scholars and worked on specialized libraries and universities. Basically since the beginning of public libraries as we know them today it’s a job that’s required a MA. Which IMO is odd because while it is specialized, it’s not more so than a lot of jobs that only require a BA.

[SusanBAnthony]

Jul 25, 2021 15:09:10 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Jul 25, 2021 14:09:12 GMT -5 bears said:

I think her point that organizations are outsourcing their training to universities is valid here.

That’s true but librarian jobs have required a MA since the at least the 1940s (the first MA program was in the late 1920s and quickly became the norm) so this isn’t a “new” trend the way the other programs she discussed are. This coincided with the spread of neighborhood libraries thanks to the Carnegie (and other philanthropist sponsored) libraries in the US. Before the 1920s librarians are largely scholars and worked on specialized libraries and universities. Basically since the beginning of public libraries as we know them today it’s a job that’s required a MA. Which IMO is odd because while it is specialized, it’s not more so than a lot of jobs that only require a BA.

Compare the fact that every bridge or tunnel or road you drove on, and every car and airplane you ride in is designed by someone with a bachelor's degree. Its pretty ridiculous the differences between years of schooling in different fields. I have no idea why librarians wouldn't only need bachelor's in all but the most specialized areas. Heck, have them get "endorsements" like teachers.

[lauralala]

This topic is very interesting to me on a couple of fronts. I have an MA in English and have spent most of my career teaching at community colleges. A few years ago, we moved for my husband's job and I could not find a teaching position, so I took a job at the local public library. I really enjoyed working there, but not enough to get a second master's degree for a job that paid the same or less than teaching.

Since I did not have the right degree, I only made $13 an hour, and that pay seems to be pretty consistent with the non-degreed library positions I have seen since we moved back to Houston. There is nothing that even the library director did on a daily basis that I could not have learned through certification courses or on the job training, but I had no hope of ever moving out of my "clerk" position.

I know there are several librarians on this board, and I am not discounting what they do. But in the two years I worked there, I did the same work I see listed in job descriptions for librarians, but would never be able to have that title, which was really frustrating.

[af1212]

I have often felt frustrated by the requirements for teaching in the same way.

To teach you must have a BSEd in my state, but then within 6 years you must acquire 24 post-bacc credits. For most people this makes sense to do in a masters program.

So then you have someone like myself who had a BS and MS in education. However I made the same amount of money as someone who had a BS in say finance, and an MS in education with 0 experience, even though I had literally double the coursework in the related field.

[aurora]

Jul 25, 2021 15:21:04 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

Jul 25, 2021 15:09:10 GMT -5 tacokick said:

That’s true but librarian jobs have required a MA since the at least the 1940s (the first MA program was in the late 1920s and quickly became the norm) so this isn’t a “new” trend the way the other programs she discussed are. This coincided with the spread of neighborhood libraries thanks to the Carnegie (and other philanthropist sponsored) libraries in the US. Before the 1920s librarians are largely scholars and worked on specialized libraries and universities. Basically since the beginning of public libraries as we know them today it’s a job that’s required a MA. Which IMO is odd because while it is specialized, it’s not more so than a lot of jobs that only require a BA.

Compare the fact that every bridge or tunnel or road you drove on, and every car and airplane you ride in is designed by someone with a bachelor's degree. Its pretty ridiculous the differences between years of schooling in different fields. I have no idea why librarians wouldn't only need bachelor's in all but the most specialized areas. Heck, have them get "endorsements" like teachers.

The aerospace field employs a lot of PhDs. Automotive some. Sure, they also employ engineers at the bachelors and masters levels, but it's not quite as stark as you suggest.

[aurora]

To the main point, though, there are definitely reasons professions use credentialing as a gatekeeper (increase prestige, keep salaries high) that aren't good for society, and academia has all sorts of norms that are designed to benefit universities more than students and society. This includes a lot of pressure to produce more graduate students than can reasonably expect to be employed in most fields. It's a real problem.

[bronxgirl]

My brother got an MLIS, hoping to then work in the public library system. After graduation there were few jobs available and a huge applicant pool. After a year or so of applying and getting rejected he gave up and took a full time retail position. Now he regrets having gotten the degree in the first place be cause he has a job that doesn't need an advanced degree and the burden of student loans.

[rupertpenny]

Jul 25, 2021 15:09:10 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Jul 25, 2021 14:09:12 GMT -5 bears said:

I think her point that organizations are outsourcing their training to universities is valid here.

That’s true but librarian jobs have required a MA since the at least the 1940s (the first MA program was in the late 1920s and quickly became the norm) so this isn’t a “new” trend the way the other programs she discussed are. This coincided with the spread of neighborhood libraries thanks to the Carnegie (and other philanthropist sponsored) libraries in the US. Before the 1920s librarians are largely scholars and worked on specialized libraries and universities. Basically since the beginning of public libraries as we know them today it’s a job that’s required a MA. Which IMO is odd because while it is specialized, it’s not more so than a lot of jobs that only require a BA.

I do think that requiring an MLS is basically hazing for librarians in some ways, but I think it is a more legit master's degree than a lot of others. It is a professional degree and can be pretty practical depending on which school you go to and what your ultimate career goals are. I do think that libraries should give weight to on the job training though. Some people work their way up in libraries and learn skills along the way and they shouldn't have to get a degree to be promoted a job with "librarian" in the title. 

My MA in history was basically lighting money on fire though. Although, as a faculty librarian at a university I am expected to have both an MLS and a subject master's degree. It is pretty silly, there are librarians doing really technical work whose extra degree is in something completely unrelated to their job duties. 

[Poppy]

Also, engineers who are designing those things have extra certifications; in the US it's typically Professional Engineer (PE) which involves post-collegiate testing and apprenticeship time requirements, during which period you typically make less money than you do after certification and must have a PE sign off on your work. So it's kind of like a medical residency in a way.

[bears]

Jul 26, 2021 10:40:23 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Also, engineers who are designing those things have extra certifications; in the US it's typically Professional Engineer (PE) which involves post-collegiate testing and apprenticeship time requirements, during which period you typically make less money than you do after certification. So it's kind of like a medical residency in a way.

Does the employer pay for these certifications?

[Poppy]

Jul 26, 2021 10:41:57 GMT -5 bears said:

Jul 26, 2021 10:40:23 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Also, engineers who are designing those things have extra certifications; in the US it's typically Professional Engineer (PE) which involves post-collegiate testing and apprenticeship time requirements, during which period you typically make less money than you do after certification. So it's kind of like a medical residency in a way.

Does the employer pay for these certifications?

I think most do. I'm not really sure. I started the process but ended up going into a sub-field where they are not used (I do not work on infrastructure or anything life-critical).

FWIW, I have a Masters but learned way more on the job than in that extra time in school so I'm not here disagreeing with the premise that post-graduate degrees are problematic, just trying to reassure people a bit about bridges and planes.

To bring things kind of full circle, engineering also has major problems with equity at the college admissions level. So there is definitely a form of gate-keeping happening there, too.

[tacokick]

Jul 26, 2021 10:21:47 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

Jul 25, 2021 15:09:10 GMT -5 tacokick said:

That’s true but librarian jobs have required a MA since the at least the 1940s (the first MA program was in the late 1920s and quickly became the norm) so this isn’t a “new” trend the way the other programs she discussed are. This coincided with the spread of neighborhood libraries thanks to the Carnegie (and other philanthropist sponsored) libraries in the US. Before the 1920s librarians are largely scholars and worked on specialized libraries and universities. Basically since the beginning of public libraries as we know them today it’s a job that’s required a MA. Which IMO is odd because while it is specialized, it’s not more so than a lot of jobs that only require a BA.

I do think that requiring an MLS is basically hazing for librarians in some ways, but I think it is a more legit master's degree than a lot of others. It is a professional degree and can be pretty practical depending on which school you go to and what your ultimate career goals are. I do think that libraries should give weight to on the job training though. Some people work their way up in libraries and learn skills along the way and they shouldn't have to get a degree to be promoted a job with "librarian" in the title. 

My MA in history was basically lighting money on fire though. Although, as a faculty librarian at a university I am expected to have both an MLS and a subject master's degree. It is pretty silly, there are librarians doing really technical work whose extra degree is in something completely unrelated to their job duties. 

I’ve always thought it could be two tiered depending on your goal. A BA/BS for more general duties at a public library and a MA for further education or specialization, similar to teaching.

[breezy8407]

Jul 26, 2021 10:41:57 GMT -5 bears said:

Jul 26, 2021 10:40:23 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Also, engineers who are designing those things have extra certifications; in the US it's typically Professional Engineer (PE) which involves post-collegiate testing and apprenticeship time requirements, during which period you typically make less money than you do after certification. So it's kind of like a medical residency in a way.

Does the employer pay for these certifications?

My current employer will pay for licensing exams if you pass. There is also a study materials library. 

Similar to engineering, in architecture it varies a little by state but generally there (6) exams and you are required to complete supervised hours under a licensed professional. It amounts to about 3 years of time. 

[aprilsails]

Jul 26, 2021 10:41:57 GMT -5 bears said:

Jul 26, 2021 10:40:23 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Also, engineers who are designing those things have extra certifications; in the US it's typically Professional Engineer (PE) which involves post-collegiate testing and apprenticeship time requirements, during which period you typically make less money than you do after certification. So it's kind of like a medical residency in a way.

Does the employer pay for these certifications?

I’m in Ontario but it takes four years of relevant work post graduation to obtain your Professional Engineering license. You also have to pass an ethics exam, submit a summary of work done (minimum of 10 pages) and submit two letters of reference. In my company, they do not pay for your first or primary provincial license, since that is something you take with you as an employee. I now have licenses in 6 provinces and territories and my company pays for all of those memberships, exams, and annual fees since I only have those licenses in order for the company to do business in those jurisdictions.

[AJL]

I’m starting graduate school in a month. I’m 20 years post BS. I’m in the MSSW program at the University of Texas. I had been considering graduate programs for years but cost and ROI were a big issue. But I planned and saved for whatever program I was going to do and knew why I wanted the degree and what I planned to do with it.

I would fully discourage anyone going into a graduate program straight out of undergrad (unless it’s a professional degree like JD, MD, PharmD, etc.) I think there is a lot benefit to taking the time for working, developing a network, and finding funding sources for further education.

[waverly]

I've been saying for a long time that universities are engaging in predatory behavior. For example, in undergrad our nanny got a degree in exercise science. I suppose she could have done more for that, but according to her anyway that the degree is to sell gym equipment which does not need a degree. She ended up being a nanny, and then left to sell gym memberships in a bad working environment and then got laid off during the pandemic and is now a nanny again (no longer for us.) I also know several people who go to school to become medical billers or work in a doctor office, but that doesn't need a specific degree either, and those jobs also do not pay well.

One of my regrets is doing 3 majors in undergrad, and spending that extra money for no reason. I did get a cheap masters degree because I knew I wouldn't make that much, but it worked out by happenstance because I happened to be living in a city that had a city college so it was partially tax funded. And then I got a management job that paid more. But entry level wages nowadays are still the same as when I started 12 years ago at this institution, and yes PSLF did not work for me at all since it is broken and doesn't work for 99% of people.

I liked this part of the article, "In the arts and other “passion” fields like journalism, these grad programs pop up and disappear, proliferate and shift identities, or rely on accumulated prestige. Filmmaking, Poetry, Acting, Vocal Performance, Book & Paper Arts, Creative Writing, Screenwriting, Publishing, the list goes on — all share the illusion that a master’s degree will, in some way, provide a sustainable route into an industry, even though everyone outside of academia agrees that this route effectively does not exist." Certain industries have been gutted, so there is not a lot of way to make progress even with a degree, and now you have debt as well.

Also AJL , are there good funding sources for social science type education? I mean, my work offers some tuition reimbursement but it is hardly anything. So unless you are working for a business and they are paying for the MBA or you are working for a university with free tuition, I guess I am not sure what other funding (besides self funding) there would be. And I don't see a ton of it in social sciences. I'm not saying rush into a masters program, but I guess part of the problem of the masters degrees are finding funding at any point.

Oh and there is no reason people need a masters in library science.  That could easily be a bachelor program for the last 2 years of your 4 year program.  It is only because it was historically "academic" or something like that.  But it doesn't matter, no one accredits bachelor degrees and everyone hiring wants ALA accredited master programs.  And yes, if you do anything else at the library you are paid basically minimum wage. Even the librarians are only starting out at like $22 an hour.  So what is the point of taking out $60k + in student loans for that? 

[bears]

Jul 26, 2021 14:47:58 GMT -5 AJL said:

I’m starting graduate school in a month. I’m 20 years post BS. I’m in the MSSW program at the University of Texas. I had been considering graduate programs for years but cost and ROI were a big issue. But I planned and saved for whatever program I was going to do and knew why I wanted the degree and what I planned to do with it.

I would fully discourage anyone going into a graduate program straight out of undergrad (unless it’s a professional degree like JD, MD, PharmD, etc.) I think there is a lot benefit to taking the time for working, developing a network, and finding funding sources for further education.

I agree with this if you have to take on debt or pay for the degree yourself. Otherwise, it's a lot easier to stomach the grad school situation when you're younger.

I would never have gone back to school to do a research program--it really is a full time job and the research assistant paycheck is very low. I knew a few people who worked in industry while getting their (funded by the job) PhD and it took forever.

[rupertpenny]

I will admit that I am feeling weirdly defensive about my MLS right now. Not only am I one of the lucky ones who had an assistantship that came with a part-time >minimum wage job and a tuition waiver, but I have also been able to develop a career that I love and that pays me a living wage.

However, I think a lot of the problems we are talking about come from the way the academy is structured and the way our current society values labor. Higher education should be better funded and more affordable, and everyone should be able to make a living wage even if they aren't directly producing profits. Easier said than done, of course, but universities should be able to survive financially without duping desperate people into more or less useless master's degrees.

I assume AHP and others single out library science is because librarians are drastically underpaid in most circumstances, but people don't seem to feel this way about other professional degrees like JDs. No one is saying we should go back to the pre-JD days of yore, probably because lawyers still have earning potential even if that potential is often overhyped. Librarianship is a profession just like the law is; the correct solution (hypothetically, I know this is unrealistic) is to respect and compensate librarians at least a little bit more like we do lawyers rather than deprofessionalize librarianship. And entities like the American Library Association and the Bar absolutely need to take action to ensure that the number of people trained is closer in line with the number of available jobs.

I know this is all both idealistic and unrealistic, but I just don't think making everything a bachelor's degree is the answer. I would also like to say that my only experience is in academic libraries, I know public libraries are a different beast.

[wawa]

Jul 25, 2021 19:42:58 GMT -5 aurora said:

Jul 25, 2021 15:21:04 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

Compare the fact that every bridge or tunnel or road you drove on, and every car and airplane you ride in is designed by someone with a bachelor's degree. Its pretty ridiculous the differences between years of schooling in different fields. I have no idea why librarians wouldn't only need bachelor's in all but the most specialized areas. Heck, have them get "endorsements" like teachers.

The aerospace field employs a lot of PhDs. Automotive some. Sure, they also employ engineers at the bachelors and masters levels, but it's not quite as stark as you suggest.

it amuses me that we had to include this clarification.  While we're being pedantic, geotechnical engineers (sub-speciality of the civil field) also tend to get a masters. My husband has a CivE masters and designs roads and parking lots and storm drains and such, but it's completely pointless - he just got it because he was ahead on credits and could finish a masters with only an extra half year of school so he didn't have to be a real boy yet.  so he did.

speaking of gate keeping in a different sense....A master's degree is also how like 98% of the non-usa born engineers I know originally came to this country.  So there's actually a pretty healthy number of civil engineers out there designing bridges and tunnels and roads with masters degrees after their bachelors degree was in china or india.  /not the topic really

I have just a BS and it is in zero ways an impediment in engineering career.  It's funny you use as an example SusanBAnthony because I often feel like civil engineering must be some sort of outlier when we have conversations a whole pile of employment topics.  Like...we pay our interns.  We pay them pretty well actually! And let them do real engineering type work!  On the job training/apprenticeship is the norm.  Fairly narrow profit margins are the norm (government contracts usually mandate how much profit we can put on our billing rates...). Paying for ongoing training/licensing is the norm. Just a BS is the norm (*ahem* with some exceptions).  There are even still career paths available into our offices without a degree at all!  (CAD tech!  Dieing breed, but the companies that still have them rely HEAVILY on them)  Everybody else should try to be more like us?  

[waverly]

rupertpenny, right, my MLS worked for me too. But that doesn't mean it can't be part of a bachelor degree except for the academic and prestige. And that doesn't seem to matter in public libraries like it does in academia. And not to discredit you at all, but the second masters required to work in an academic library for that same amount of pay (let's say 50-60K and might be higher in a big city) doesn't make a ton of sense to me either. It makes more sense to me to do coursework more related to my job rather than a random masters degree just to check a box, and some might have found a degree that relates better such as music to work in a music archive, but a lot seem like there wasn't a ton of thought behind the second masters and the pay doesn't increase as far as I know anyway. Obviously I am in public rather than academic, but I spent some time in academia and the mental gymnastics among some to categorize people they would help was a bit much for example they would only help tenured professors but not staff lecturers- eyeroll. It's probably me rebelling against the snobbery of academia.

But overall, the profession does need to be paid better from top to bottom. Hard to do when taxes haven't increased ever.

[breezy8407]

wawa We are desperately seeking Cad (BIM) technicians. There is absolutely a career path with a technical degree in drafting.

[pixy0stix]

Jul 26, 2021 16:11:39 GMT -5 wawa said:

Like...we pay our interns.  We pay them pretty well actually! And let them do real engineering type work!  On the job training/apprenticeship is the norm.  Fairly narrow profit margins are the norm (government contracts usually mandate how much profit we can put on our billing rates...). Paying for ongoing training/licensing is the norm. Just a BS is the norm (*ahem* with some exceptions).  There are even still career paths available into our offices without a degree at all!  (CAD tech!  Dieing breed, but the companies that still have them rely HEAVILY on them)  Everybody else should try to be more like us?  

Our interns are paid $20 an hour and do actual work. We have them designing, inspecting small projects, and working a survey crew. And we're a public institution. Yet civil engineering seems to be overlooked in many areas.

[aurora]

wawa, I hope you don't see my clarification as belittling civil by omission. Definitely there is some important research in that field being done by PhDs, as well as a wide range of possible career pathways as you mentioned. I just know less about the details.

[AJL]

I have to do two years of field placement with a relevant agency for my MSW program. It’s 20 hours a week, we’re not paid, and if you’re in the clinical track, none of your direct client interaction hours count towards LCSW hours (AFAIK.) I think it’s bullshit.

[wawa]

Jul 26, 2021 18:26:39 GMT -5 aurora said:

wawa, I hope you don't see my clarification as belittling civil by omission. Definitely there is some important research in that field being done by PhDs, as well as a wide range of possible career pathways as you mentioned. I just know less about the details.

Oh not at all, just chiming in for my team. 😁

[aurora]

Jul 26, 2021 10:41:57 GMT -5 bears said:

Jul 26, 2021 10:40:23 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Also, engineers who are designing those things have extra certifications; in the US it's typically Professional Engineer (PE) which involves post-collegiate testing and apprenticeship time requirements, during which period you typically make less money than you do after certification. So it's kind of like a medical residency in a way.

Does the employer pay for these certifications?

Getting your Professional Engineering license in the U.S. requires two tests plus the training years mentioned by others. The first test is usually taken around the end of your bachelor's degree so not usuallypaid by employer. Some employers will pay for the second after the several years of work.