Afghanistan’s embattled president left the country Sunday, joining his fellow citizens and foreigners in a stampede fleeing the advancing Taliban and signaling the end of a 20-year Western experiment aimed at remaking Afghanistan.
The Taliban, which for hours had been in the outskirts of Kabul, announced soon after they would move further into a city gripped by panic throughout the day as helicopters raced overhead to evacuate personnel from the U.S. Embassy. Smoke rose near the compound as staff destroyed important documents. Several other Western missions also prepared to pull their people out.
Civilians fearing that the Taliban could reimpose the kind of brutal rule that all but eliminated women’s rights rushed to leave the country as well, lining up at cash machines to withdraw their life savings. The desperately poor — who had left homes in the countryside for the hoped-for safety in the capital — remained in their thousands in parks and open spaces throughout the city.
President Ashraf Ghani flew out of the country, two officials told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to brief journalists. Abdullah Abdullah, the head of the Afghan National Reconciliation Council, later confirmed in an online video that Ghani had left.
Post by cattledogkisses on Aug 15, 2021 9:52:05 GMT -5
I have so many thoughts and feelings about this. I've read Biden's rationale for why we are keeping to the plan on leaving, and his reasoning makes sense. But also as someone whose husband spent two years deployed there I'm feeling kind of like, what was the point of everything? We spent 20 years there, we personally lost friends there, just to have things end up the same in the end. But also, if we couldn't stabilize Afghanistan after 20 years, then I'm not sure more time there would have made a difference. And on a personal level I certainly don't have any desire for my husband to go back there again.
I don't know. What a mess. I hope all the American personnel and Afghan nationals who have helped us are able to get out safely, and I'm sick over what this will mean for Afghan women and girls.
I thought Biden put out a great statement on it. I do feel for our vets like cattledogkisses’s husband. I follow some vets on Twitter and am reading similar things. For many of us who are anti-war, it is easier to say it was doomed from the start. But people gave their lives for this. And I am sure lives were saved in those 20 years, but we couldn’t stay there forever. I have seen a lot saying we haven’t done enough to get those who helped us out safely, so I really hope that is remedied quickly.
Also, I really hate that some news outlets are blaming this on Biden. It was always going to be messy. Biden is doing what his predecessors couldn’t or wouldn’t. And Trump committed to an even earlier timeline. You know he would have made an even bigger mess of it.
I’m just amazed at the speed it’s happened. I mean, it feels like yesterday we withdrew, and this morning, on NPR, some govt official there was talking a “peaceful transition of power” to the taliban. And yeah, I am feeling a big what was the point, trillions of dollars, 20 years, and poof. All gone.
I admit to not knowing enough to have a well informed opinion. But… it’s just hard to think about us spending so much there, while … I don’t know. Just 😭
Post by Velar Fricative on Aug 15, 2021 10:40:23 GMT -5
I need to dig a lot deeper, but right now I feel so frustrated that we are here at this point again 20 years later. The human toll over these last 20 years is too much.
I have so many thoughts and feelings. I deployed to Afghanistan four times, witnessed the struggle, lost friends, hoped so much for the fate of the Afghan people (especially women and girls). While I think most of us who served knew this kind of fall was inevitable, it’s still sad to see it happen so quickly and completely. It’s hard to feel like any of my/our sacrifices there made any difference. They’re just going back to oppression.
Many people I served with are having a very hard time processing this. If you know people who served there, it would be nice to reach out and check on them. We are not okay.
I spent two years working in Afghanistan which is nothing compared to some contractors who go out there. I have local nationals reaching out to me on Facebook asking for recommendation letters for SIV because HR with (my old) agency will not do it. The problem is they worked for a manpower company and not directly employed. They have revised to include them now but they must leave Afghanistan first. It is a hot mess. I was contacted back in 2016 by a senator's office asking for a letter because the Afghan worker had been beaten and killed and they were trying to get his family to immigrate here via SIV. It is emotionally taxing and one individual is no longer responding to my messages so I can only assume the worst. We were warned not to write letters and IDGAF I will write them all day, everyday until everyone that asks has one.
I knew it was a huge waste seven years ago as soon as I had boots on the ground. It was a never ending occupation and training of local military was a disaster. I believe Biden is smart in leaving and especially at the beginning of his term. Why are we wasting human resources and lives in a never ending war? 20 years there and look how fast it crumbled. I know this is coming off as cold hearted but we spend so much money in Afghanistan when it isn't our problem and clearly we couldn't fix it. So we either withdraw or face endless occupation.
This is an animal shelter that helps adopt dogs and cats to Soldiers and others. They have a vet clinic that employs female veterinarians and they have a donkey sanctuary. They provide education on animal welfare to the people in the province.
When I personally think of the mission in Afghanistan, this is one small but incredibly tangible result. A moment of good.
They now need help getting the animals out, in the form of a cargo plane.
You can donate and help out. Or pass this organization along..
I think to me, donating is a way to Remember and honor all my friends and honor their time and sacrifices there..that the work they did, DID have an impact.
Many of my military friends are recommending this organization to help get people out of Afghanistan. I haven’t checked it out, but it looks legit, at least for helping interpreters and other Afghans who worked closely with the US military (who face death if left to the Taliban).
Also, I really hate that some news outlets are blaming this on Biden. It was always going to be messy. Biden is doing what his predecessors couldn’t or wouldn’t. And Trump committed to an even earlier timeline. You know he would have made an even bigger mess of it.
I don’t know. Trump committed to us doing this but Biden pulled the trigger [<— do people still use that expression?]. I’m a Biden voter and fan for sure but there’s plenty of blame here to go all around to Bush, Trump, Obama, and Biden.
That’s just my gut instinct. I’m definitely not all informed about the topic.
Also, I really hate that some news outlets are blaming this on Biden. It was always going to be messy. Biden is doing what his predecessors couldn’t or wouldn’t. And Trump committed to an even earlier timeline. You know he would have made an even bigger mess of it.
I don’t know. Trump committed to us doing this but Biden pulled the trigger [<— do people still use that expression?]. I’m a Biden voter and fan for sure but there’s plenty of blame here to go all around to Bush, Trump, Obama, and Biden.
That’s just my gut instinct. I’m definitely not all informed about the topic.
Yes….but….we went into Afghanistan with no plan, no end-state, no exit strategy. We do that A LOT. Now, I agree that the humanitarian situation in Afghanistan in the late 90s/early 2000s was horrible, but maybe it should have been a humanitarian mission or a diplomatic one instead of a military mission. Maybe we could have focused on economic support more. Maybe we could have spent some of the last 20 years planning for a way to support Afghanistan without making them dependent on us for security. The way we did it just all feels so pointless. I want to be proud of what I did there, and I desperately want to feel like the lives lost weren’t in vain. But it’s hard to feel anything other than confusion right now.
Also, I really hate that some news outlets are blaming this on Biden. It was always going to be messy. Biden is doing what his predecessors couldn’t or wouldn’t. And Trump committed to an even earlier timeline. You know he would have made an even bigger mess of it.
I don’t know. Trump committed to us doing this but Biden pulled the trigger [<— do people still use that expression?]. I’m a Biden voter and fan for sure but there’s plenty of blame here to go all around to Bush, Trump, Obama, and Biden.
That’s just my gut instinct. I’m definitely not all informed about the topic.
It feels to me like we either leave, or stay forever. There doesn’t seem to be a middle ground. And Biden’s statement about not passing this on to a fifth president suggests to me what I think someone said above - he knows this is an impossible mess but he’s not going to let someone else inherit it. That doesn’t make it right but it seems to be situation in which there’s only wrong answers across the board. That’s my inadequate take anyway.
Post by goldengirlz on Aug 15, 2021 20:58:48 GMT -5
John Oliver did a segment last week about the interpreters who are still waiting for asylum, and very much in danger. The question seems to be less about timing but whether the Biden Administration has done everything they could have to prevent excess deaths, to prevent this horrific end. And the U.S. has a track record, unfortunately, of making a giant mess of things in the name of “helping,” so I understand the urge to point fingers.
But I feel for the military. I have a number of former classmates who were in ROTC and graduated into this crisis in the post-Sept. 11 period. Until covid, it was the defining moment of our generation, especially us Xennials.
Exactly - it has been our generation’s war. And I was writing college papers in the mid aughts about why it was a bad idea from the start. I agree that the evacuations could probably have been done better. But I also don’t believe for a second that Trump would have done it any better. He has never truly cared about anything that didn’t benefit him personally.
I’m also a bit surprised this thread is so light. I’m hoping it’s just a Sunday thing. Or maybe just the general apathy towards a pointless war.
I think it’s partly that, but also a massive amount of information is coming out in such a short period of time. It’s just incredibly difficult to digest that fast without the answer being something thoughtful like “oh holy fucking hell”
Many of my military friends are recommending this organization to help get people out of Afghanistan. I haven’t checked it out, but it looks legit, at least for helping interpreters and other Afghans who worked closely with the US military (who face death if left to the Taliban).
I’m also a bit surprised this thread is so light. I’m hoping it’s just a Sunday thing. Or maybe just the general apathy towards a pointless war.
I don't think I feel apathetic toward this development in Afghanistan so much as I feel like "Well, there's another shit log for this dumpster fire". I'm frustrated and angry that this could have been sorted out at least 15 years ago. And fuck you, GW and Clinton. But I guess this is going to be our legacy. I feel so sad for our service men and women who are probably like "What the fuck were we even doing all this time!?!?" You know, it's unbelievable to think that there are some of us (not me personally) who fought in Afghanistan and now have children fighting there.
Afghanistan. The Taliban. Myanmar. Cuba. Central and South America. Our own fucking country. COVID. Climate crisis. We're crumbling. I'm all out of outrage. I really am. I'm tired. I'm weepy. I feel beat the fuck down by everything.
I’m also a bit surprised this thread is so light. I’m hoping it’s just a Sunday thing. Or maybe just the general apathy towards a pointless war.
I'm not even sure what to write. Everything posted above reads like an episode of Homeland except this is real life. I feel hopelessness as an outsider reading this news.
I’m also a bit surprised this thread is so light. I’m hoping it’s just a Sunday thing. Or maybe just the general apathy towards a pointless war.
I don't think I feel apathetic toward this development in Afghanistan so much as I feel like "Well, there's another shit log for this dumpster fire". I'm frustrated and angry that this could have been sorted out at least 15 years ago. And fuck you, GW and Clinton. But I guess this is going to be our legacy. I feel so sad for our service men and women who are probably like "What the fuck were we even doing all this time!?!?" You know, it's unbelievable to think that there are some of us (not me personally) who fought in Afghanistan and now have children fighting there.
Afghanistan. The Taliban. Myanmar. Cuba. Central and South America. Our own fucking country. COVID. Climate crisis. We're crumbling. I'm all out of outrage. I really am. I'm tired. I'm weepy. I feel beat the fuck down by everything.
So yeah.
This is kind of what I meant by apathy - maybe I didn’t choose the best word. Not a not caring apathy, just a defeated apathy.
I don't think I feel apathetic toward this development in Afghanistan so much as I feel like "Well, there's another shit log for this dumpster fire". I'm frustrated and angry that this could have been sorted out at least 15 years ago. And fuck you, GW and Clinton. But I guess this is going to be our legacy. I feel so sad for our service men and women who are probably like "What the fuck were we even doing all this time!?!?" You know, it's unbelievable to think that there are some of us (not me personally) who fought in Afghanistan and now have children fighting there.
Afghanistan. The Taliban. Myanmar. Cuba. Central and South America. Our own fucking country. COVID. Climate crisis. We're crumbling. I'm all out of outrage. I really am. I'm tired. I'm weepy. I feel beat the fuck down by everything.
So yeah.
This is kind of what I meant by apathy - maybe I didn’t choose the best word. Not a not caring apathy, just a defeated apathy.
I think "defeated" is a pretty accurate descriptor.
I’m also a bit surprised this thread is so light. I’m hoping it’s just a Sunday thing. Or maybe just the general apathy towards a pointless war.
Could also reflect it being Sunday but elected officials like Ruben Gallego have been reporting that they expected communication blowing up from constituents and it’s been crickets.
I’m also a bit surprised this thread is so light. I’m hoping it’s just a Sunday thing. Or maybe just the general apathy towards a pointless war.
Could also reflect it being Sunday but elected officials like Ruben Gallego have been reporting that they expected communication blowing up from constituents and it’s been crickets.
This is interesting to me because y’all know I’m pretty informed about legislative action but I’m not clear what the path is here? As a layperson it feels like the decision was already made and it doesn’t feel like contacting representatives is going to do anything?
Like, could Congress reverse this? And if so, is that even reasonable or desirable as a course of action? What levers exist? Is it to expedite asylum for people in Afghanistan somehow? Some other intervention? Maybe they’re not hearing from people because people have no idea what to do or say. Or maybe I’m projecting.
I feel lost. I think I said this the last time we discussed the “end” of US involvement in Afghanistan a month or so ago, but this war has been a fixture nearly my entire life, and certainly as long as I’ve followed politics. The situation now is awful and hopeless but it’s also clear that staying indefinitely is not the answer.