Do you know anyone IRL who served in Afghanistan?

[chilerellanos]

Aug 17, 2021 10:01:24 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

I need to say something.

I'm not exactly sure what it it is, but it bothers me that it seems like the only ways people can describe the people they know or knew personally who served are "have ptsd" "they are messed up" "struggle with dependency" "suicide" etc.


85-90% of the NCOs and commanders I worked with served in Afghanistan. They were the post 9/11 generation.


Here are some other words I would use to describe my friends, colleagues and collaborators:

Easily the most motivated group of people I've ever met.

Passionate
Innovative
Caring.
Open minded.. They taught me and all my other civilian coworkers an entire culture and invited us into their world.

Fucking resilient.
Amazing teammates
Funny

I could go on and on.

Did they have and suffer consequences because of the SUPER stressful jobs and situations they found themselves in?

Um. Yes, and I'm not ignoring that. They are a special population that requires specific acknowledgement and care of those needs.

But that isn't who they ARE.

I realize this sounds lecture and I'm sorry, but this is pretty upsetting to me. If all you are doing is looking at your military or veteran friends, family and colleagues as these descriptors of negatives but not who they are, and you are just now realizing or thinking about this 20 year conflict that was a bfd and operating in the background..I guess the one thing I'd encourage you to do is examine how you look at if you hold a belief that is holding you back from getting to know the truth and ergo even the people who did the work.

Thank you for saying this!

Something was really bothering me about this, and this was it. Exactly.

[konapoppy]

I totally appreciate that it shouldn’t be a primary descriptor. And I think the reason it comes up a lot is that our generation and the generation after us are much more focused on mental health than others. I feel like I have seen a lot in the past 20 years about proving ptsd is a real thing.

Again, it should be balanced. I can just see why it would be a primary thought for many.

[Michelle]

foundmylazybum my wording wasn't included in your list so your comment may not be about my comment, however I wanted to clarify why i shared that descriptor of my dad. My dad was called to Iraq and was one of the older reservists who was deployed. He returned in 2004 with severe PTSD. And then he died just a few years after he returned. My particular comment that he returned and suffered from PTSD until he died early at age 56 was a succinct way of sharing that he had a remarkably short life, and his trauma from Afghanistan robbed some of those years from him. It definitely wasn't intended as a sole descriptor of HIM but rather how I feel about his experience and what he was put through.

I'm pissed about us pulling out of Afghanistan the way we have after so many people lost a good portion of themselves over there. And some lost their lives. And now, it doesn't seem any better than how we got involved. And I feel several kinds of ways about it.

And to @pixy_stix - when it is an immediate family member and their state of mind directly impacts you upon return, dome of their story becomes part of your story. 

[foundmylazybum]

Aug 17, 2021 13:31:23 GMT -5 Michelle said:

foundmylazybum my wording wasn't included in your list so your comment may not be about my comment, however I wanted to clarify why i shared that descriptor of my dad. My dad was called to Iraq and was one of the older reservists who was deployed. He returned in 2004 with severe PTSD. And then he died just a few years after he returned. My particular comment that he returned and suffered from PTSD until he died early at age 56 was a succinct way of sharing that he had a remarkably short life, and his trauma from Afghanistan robbed some of those years from him. It definitely wasn't intended as a sole descriptor of HIM but rather how I feel about his experience and what he was put through.

I'm pissed about us pulling out of Afghanistan the way we have after so many people lost a good portion of themselves over there. And some lost their lives. And now, it doesn't seem any better than how we got involved. And I feel several kinds of ways about it.

And to @pixy_stix - when it is an immediate family member and their state of mind directly impacts you upon return, dome of their story becomes part of your story. 

So this is a complex issue and I'm not going to sit around and go into the weeds about everyone's different experiences about this because it's all personal. I'm not saying these things didn't or don't happen.

But you are doing it again. Right now. Actually you ARE only describing your dad AND his experience as only negative AND you go on to describe that "so many people lost a good portion of their lives in Afghanistan."  You do realize that YOU are framing the story as "so many people "lost a part of themselves" right? Like, in no part of this post are you acknowledging at all the rich, dynamic qualities of military people, or their lives and experiences. 


I'm seriously sitting here gritting my teeth thinking about how many of my Soldier colleagues taught me about lived resilience, PTSD and Post Traumatic Growth and honestly I think I might have to take a step back from this post so that I can remember the lived experiences I know to be true rather than this reframe that is being told here. 

One of the major reasons why people are so pissed off about this is because they are unsure about whether or not what they did there mattered and that they sacrificed a lot. They might be feeling like they have their hope and optimism shaken. But if you--as person who "knows" them can recognize that your military friends are more than a mental health diagnosis then that is how you actually connect with them during this super hard time.



Also, it's really important that the stigma around mental health in the military has been broken down. I have been a part of that work and believe me I know it's incredibly important.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Edit: I'm again so sorry I forget this. It is not intentional and I DO feel it is important. I'm not trying to be a jerk. Thank you for fixing it for me. It's that it's not my habit. 


If there was a poll "Do you know a woman personally who birthed a baby?"

And the way people answered was:


Yes: So many.
So many were wounded by the birth. 

Man they were messed up by the experience 

Yeah, my cousin was has PPD and she is struggling with alcoholism.

People would lose their minds with the responses. 


Stop.  

[VillainV]

@foundmazybum is making a good point.

When this thread started, I felt a really big divide between people like me/families like mine who have served and people/families who haven’t. There are huge segments of the population who just don’t understand (and don’t have any way to understand) what military life is like. And because of that, I’ve never really felt like I “belong” on this board. Which is weird, because I think I share many other values and beliefs with all of you, but this is one way where I’ve never felt understood. This isn’t a value judgement — many of you never COULD understand, and I don’t hold it against you, it just makes it hard to feel any sense of belonging.

As this thread went on and I read how many people know people who served, I began to feel hope that maybe people would get it and understand. But as I kept reading, my hope faded.

I’m not broken. My experiences in Afghanistan weren’t horrible. I did some amazing things with amazing people, and I still feel tremendous pride in what I did. I grew as a person and a leader, and I was damn good at my job. Which makes it hard to reconcile with what’s going on. What did it all mean? Is it okay to feel proud of what I did? Why did the President just put down so much of our hard work as “not part of our mission”? Was it important? Did it matter? I did what I was asked to do…why do so many people think I never should have done it?

I am fortunate that I do have a wide community of people who are sharing what they’re feeling right now, and it helps me not feel alone.

[TR]

I said what I said because I thought this thread might be about how those people you know feel about what's currently happening and I wanted to clarify that I can't ask my cousin. And I don't like to just say he passed away because I feel like that diminishes his struggle in some way. But I'll have to do some thinking about that in light of what's been said.

[konapoppy]

Thank your service VillainV. I apologize if any of my comments or even creating this thread caused you harm. It was meant to be a conversation about how close this is for many of us, but not to other those who have served, or only highlight negatives of the war or the experience of our military.

[VillainV]

Aug 17, 2021 17:08:12 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Thank your service VillainV. I apologize if any of my comments or even creating this thread caused you harm. It was meant to be a conversation about how close this is for many of us, but not to other those who have served, or only highlight negatives of the war or the experience of our military.

No apology necessary. All of us have different thoughts and emotions, and they’re all valid. Just because most people on this board have a different experience than I do doesn’t mean that anyone else is wrong or bad. It’s just….different.

[childofhiphop]

Two of my nephews (brothers)

[Michelle]

Aug 17, 2021 14:29:53 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Aug 17, 2021 13:31:23 GMT -5 Michelle said:

foundmylazybum my wording wasn't included in your list so your comment may not be about my comment, however I wanted to clarify why i shared that descriptor of my dad. My dad was called to Iraq and was one of the older reservists who was deployed. He returned in 2004 with severe PTSD. And then he died just a few years after he returned. My particular comment that he returned and suffered from PTSD until he died early at age 56 was a succinct way of sharing that he had a remarkably short life, and his trauma from Afghanistan robbed some of those years from him. It definitely wasn't intended as a sole descriptor of HIM but rather how I feel about his experience and what he was put through.

I'm pissed about us pulling out of Afghanistan the way we have after so many people lost a good portion of themselves over there. And some lost their lives. And now, it doesn't seem any better than how we got involved. And I feel several kinds of ways about it.

And to @pixy_stix - when it is an immediate family member and their state of mind directly impacts you upon return, dome of their story becomes part of your story. 

So this is a complex issue and I'm not going to sit around and go into the weeds about everyone's different experiences about this because it's all personal. I'm not saying these things didn't or don't happen.

But you are doing it again. Right now. Actually you ARE only describing your dad AND his experience as only negative AND you go on to describe that "so many people lost a good portion of their lives in Afghanistan."  You do realize that YOU are framing the story as "so many people "lost a part of themselves" right? Like, in no part of this post are you acknowledging at all the rich, dynamic qualities of military people, or their lives and experiences. 


I'm seriously sitting here gritting my teeth thinking about how many of my Soldier colleagues taught me about lived resilience, PTSD and Post Traumatic Growth and honestly I think I might have to take a step back from this post so that I can remember the lived experiences I know to be true rather than this reframe that is being told here. 

One of the major reasons why people are so pissed off about this is because they are unsure about whether or not what they did there mattered and that they sacrificed a lot. They might be feeling like they have their hope and optimism shaken. But if you--as person who "knows" them can recognize that your military friends are more than a mental health diagnosis then that is how you actually connect with them during this super hard time.



Also, it's really important that the stigma around mental health in the military has been broken down. I have been a part of that work and believe me I know it's incredibly important.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Edit: I'm again so sorry I forget this. It is not intentional and I DO feel it is important. I'm not trying to be a jerk. Thank you for fixing it for me. It's that it's not my habit. 


If there was a poll "Do you know a woman personally who birthed a baby?"

And the way people answered was:


Yes: So many.
So many were wounded by the birth. 

Man they were messed up by the experience 

Yeah, my cousin was has PPD and she is struggling with alcoholism.

People would lose their minds with the responses. 


Stop.  

Thank you for this - it is an interesting perspective to consider.

As for my dad - he loved everything about his military experience before Afghanistan. He had nothing positive to say about his experience IN Afghanistan. His might have been a unique experience, AND he only went for one tour. My good friend who was killed there also never shared anything good. I don't have any positive contributions to share about Afghanistan or Iraq. None. If you do and people you know do, I'm glad for them. I can only speak from my perspective and experience.

And if i shared how fucked up things got when he got back, it'd only add to the stereotype you are concerned about. However there are a good number of friends and family members who are feeling similarly to me as we watch the Taliban take over and the chaos happening in Afghanistan right now. And the first question everyone is asking is - "What the hell? What was the point? Was it worth how fucked up things were after?"

Afghanistan has a lot of similarities to Vietnam in this way. And if you ask the people who served in Vietnam vs. Korea, WWII, the Persian Gulf War (my dad's unit went there too), or someone like my brother who didn't have a wartime duty but was sent on high security missions, the overall impression of their experiences is really different. And that has nothing to do with a judgment on military life or experience overall nor the character of soldiers. It is about those fucked up conflicts and how our leaders failed them.

[Michelle]

Aug 17, 2021 15:03:59 GMT -5 VillainV said:

@foundmazybum is making a good point.

When this thread started, I felt a really big divide between people like me/families like mine who have served and people/families who haven’t. There are huge segments of the population who just don’t understand (and don’t have any way to understand) what military life is like. And because of that, I’ve never really felt like I “belong” on this board. Which is weird, because I think I share many other values and beliefs with all of you, but this is one way where I’ve never felt understood. This isn’t a value judgement — many of you never COULD understand, and I don’t hold it against you, it just makes it hard to feel any sense of belonging.

As this thread went on and I read how many people know people who served, I began to feel hope that maybe people would get it and understand. But as I kept reading, my hope faded.

I’m not broken. My experiences in Afghanistan weren’t horrible. I did some amazing things with amazing people, and I still feel tremendous pride in what I did. I grew as a person and a leader, and I was damn good at my job. Which makes it hard to reconcile with what’s going on. What did it all mean? Is it okay to feel proud of what I did? Why did the President just put down so much of our hard work as “not part of our mission”? Was it important? Did it matter? I did what I was asked to do…why do so many people think I never should have done it?

I am fortunate that I do have a wide community of people who are sharing what they’re feeling right now, and it helps me not feel alone.

If you ever feel like sharing more of those positive experiences, I would be grateful to read about them. It is probably a failure of our leadership and media as well that we only hear of the negative things, and we don't hear about the accomplishments. I don't know if it is because the left didn't support Bush's decision (and yada yada about left-leaning media), or an overall media bias against military interventions or only in favor of sensationalism, but the positive changes were just not headliners or routinely discussed where I get my news. And in that way we failed our soldiers too.

So i apologize if I contributed to that. And again, i'd love to hear more good things. Selfishly, it might help me heal.

[Michelle]

Aug 18, 2021 13:18:29 GMT -5 @hiphopanonymous said:

Aug 18, 2021 13:14:25 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Was it worth how fucked up things were after?"

After what? The war never ended and it seems most veterans are more concerned about the big picture than their individual contributions and people aren't really recognizing that.

After our specific loved ones came back. Again, I'm trying not to elaborate on that narrative because it would contribute to the trauma porn and stereotyping that foundmylazybum pointed out well comes from that negative perspective.

[erbear]

Aug 17, 2021 15:03:59 GMT -5 VillainV said:

@foundmazybum is making a good point.

When this thread started, I felt a really big divide between people like me/families like mine who have served and people/families who haven’t. There are huge segments of the population who just don’t understand (and don’t have any way to understand) what military life is like. And because of that, I’ve never really felt like I “belong” on this board. Which is weird, because I think I share many other values and beliefs with all of you, but this is one way where I’ve never felt understood. This isn’t a value judgement — many of you never COULD understand, and I don’t hold it against you, it just makes it hard to feel any sense of belonging.

As this thread went on and I read how many people know people who served, I began to feel hope that maybe people would get it and understand. But as I kept reading, my hope faded.

I’m not broken. My experiences in Afghanistan weren’t horrible. I did some amazing things with amazing people, and I still feel tremendous pride in what I did. I grew as a person and a leader, and I was damn good at my job. Which makes it hard to reconcile with what’s going on. What did it all mean? Is it okay to feel proud of what I did? Why did the President just put down so much of our hard work as “not part of our mission”? Was it important? Did it matter? I did what I was asked to do…why do so many people think I never should have done it?

I am fortunate that I do have a wide community of people who are sharing what they’re feeling right now, and it helps me not feel alone.

Thank you for putting this out there. I know a few folks who served in Afghanistan and this is what they have been saying as well. I don’t have family or even close friends in any branch of the military and I have no idea how it functions or what it means to be intimately involved in the military, so I’ very much appreciate your insight into it.

[sonrisa]

I've seen the Vietnam comparison. If you only look at it from the US, perhaps that makes sense, but the facts on the ground are so different. I really hope Afghanistan 20 years out looks like Vietnam 20 years out. I have little hope for that.