The Atlantic: The Nasty Logistics of Returning...

[Susie]

The Nasty Logistics of Returning Your Too-Small Pants
What happens to the stuff you order online after you send it back?

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/free-returns-online-shopping/620169/?utm_content=edit-promo&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=2021-10-07T11%3A00%3A57&fbclid=IwAR1AKGn7tMVqHr4qTvfxXkLWD8XV5UqvKnBhqLZ8e_eE7POtGDFB2F-MiCY

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It seems pretty obvious, but seeing the logistics laid out like that for what happens with returns is eye opening.

[ssmjlm]

I have definitely received returned merchandise. One time a dress was fully unbuttoned and shoved into the plastic bag.

[wanderingback]

I don’t online shop and I learned about this a couple of years ago. Not gonna lie, every time someone posts on here about ordering a bunch of stuff with no plans to keep and to return most of it I want to tell them that that stuff could likely end up in a landfill :/ But I didn’t wanna be too smug about it lol. So thanks for posting this article!

[mbcdefg]

Skimmed the article and I’ll read it thoroughly later … but what am I supposed to do if the brick and mortar stores don’t carry my size in stores to try on?

[aprilsails]

I just got a big order from Banana Republic and I’m going to have to return a couple of pieces to store. Two items weren’t even what I ordered (ie the plastic bag said navy pants but there was a navy skirt inside). This should be fun.

[lucybrown]

Oct 8, 2021 9:56:05 GMT -5 mbcdefg said:

Skimmed the article and I’ll read it thoroughly later … but what am I supposed to do if the brick and mortar stores don’t carry my size in stores to try on?

This. Maybe stores should carry more than 1-2 size 16-18s.  I've been on the cusp of plus size for most of my adult life.  Online shopping finally allowed me to try stylish clothes that fit well instead of wearing whatever crap I could find on the rack that fit.  I'd also love to purchase from more sustainable/ethical companies, but many don't carry sizes beyond XL.   

FWIW, I don't shop a lot and buy secondhand as much as possible.  When I find something that fits properly, I keep it forever.  

[breezy8407]

I've had trouble finding things in stores even. I don't like going because Covid, but there's so little selection and size range.

[formerlyak]

Many chain stores, if they don't carry your size in store, will order it to store for you. Then you can go try it on it the store before bringing it home. Maybe that would reduce the waste because it would be akin to trying on what they have in a store?

[expectantsteelerfan]

I am guilty of doing this because I very much like to see things in person and feel them before determining if I'm going to keep them. When we were shopping for new bedding recently, I did go in person to Bed Bath and Beyond, Kohls, Macys and Target to look at everything they had in store. The in store selection was SO SMALL. After I looked online and bookmarked a bunch of sets I was interested in, I went back to Kohls to really look thoroughly to see if they had any of the ones I liked online in store, and I didn't find a single one. I ended up ordering several sets and returning all but 1 of them. The reasons I used for narrowing it down were colors not being what I expected and material feeling scratchy or stitching being sloppy/lots of loose threads, which are all things I could have avoided if I had seen the item in person first.
I will say though, I did order them all on one day, and there were 3 sets that were a similar color palette that as soon as I tried one in my room I realized it wasn't going to work. I could have definitely avoided ordering the other 2 if I had ordered one at a time. I will try to be more selective in the future, but I do think the nature of the industry now is to have many more options available online only, which will lead to always chancing higher returns.

[wanderingback]

Oct 8, 2021 9:56:05 GMT -5 mbcdefg said:

Skimmed the article and I’ll read it thoroughly later … but what am I supposed to do if the brick and mortar stores don’t carry my size in stores to try on?

The article is very interesting. It talks about the retailers and the problem with reverse logistics and not about the consumers, so it's not saying that you as the consumer are supposed to do anything in particular. And also I think the problem with reverse logistics goes beyond clothes...home goods, etc that don't necessarily have a size. 

[Patsy Baloney]

Oct 8, 2021 10:34:20 GMT -5 jennyparnassus said:

Edit: It just seems to me that it's pretty easy for people who have no trouble finding clothes that fit correctly to scold other people. 

Ding ding ding ding ding.

This feels like one of those things where it's shaming the consumer more than the seller. Yes, I can certainly be more mindful and have better shopping habits, utilize resale as much as possible, etc., but I'm also not the one in control of a company's policy to toss goods straight in the trash because they were returned.  

[wanderingback]

Oct 8, 2021 11:02:43 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

Oct 8, 2021 10:34:20 GMT -5 jennyparnassus said:

Edit: It just seems to me that it's pretty easy for people who have no trouble finding clothes that fit correctly to scold other people. 

Ding ding ding ding ding.

This feels like one of those things where it's shaming the consumer more than the seller. Yes, I can certainly be more mindful and have better shopping habits, utilize resale as much as possible, etc., but I'm also not the one in control of a company's policy to toss goods straight in the trash because they were returned.  

I think I read the article differently. It talks about retailers pretty much exclusively. It talks about how their policies of free shipping making people want to buy more and how that retailers are not responsible for transparency of what happens to goods that are returned is a problem and how the retailers didn't want to comment on the article. So it doesn't seem like it's shaming the consumer in my read. It's making consumers aware of the problems of reverse logistics. I just think it's something that people don't think about when they order many things with no plans from the beginning to keep them (clothes, home goods, etc)
.
. 

[TR]

Oct 8, 2021 11:02:43 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

Oct 8, 2021 10:34:20 GMT -5 jennyparnassus said:

Edit: It just seems to me that it's pretty easy for people who have no trouble finding clothes that fit correctly to scold other people. 

Ding ding ding ding ding.

This feels like one of those things where it's shaming the consumer more than the seller. Yes, I can certainly be more mindful and have better shopping habits, utilize resale as much as possible, etc., but I'm also not the one in control of a company's policy to toss goods straight in the trash because they were returned.  

Did you read the article? I thought it was very focused on the retailers and not the consumers.

[Patsy Baloney]

wanderingback, TR, I did read the article. I'm not saying the article is shaming the consumer, it's pretty plain in saying the environment was created by retailers and consumers are operating within the environment that was created.

My comment was more in response to the comment of - what the hell are we supposed to do to be more responsible consumers not contributing to the return problem when sizes aren't carried in store.

[wanderingback]

Oct 8, 2021 11:23:42 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

wanderingback , TR , I did read the article. I'm not saying the article is shaming the consumer, it's pretty plain in saying the environment was created by retailers and consumers are operating within the environment that was created.

My comment was more in response to the comment of - what the hell are we supposed to do to be more responsible consumers not contributing to the return problem when sizes aren't carried in store.

Well I do think if someone is interested in this area, then there are some things that can be done depending on if you want to make this something that is your "cause" or you advocate for. Obviously none of us are perfect and capitalism is going to be the downfall of our systems. But in the mean time, individual consumers can do things if again they want to advocate or make something their cause.
-Shop only once a year or less for clothes, home goods, etc
-Re-wear/have a "uniform" 
-Write to retailers that you think are problematic
-Write to retailers that you support and thank them for being inclusive
-Share on social media retailers that are more sustainable
-Find out if there is anything locally in regards to legislation that can address environmental issues, etc
-Etc

[mskitkat]

Since we are talking about clothing sustainability, Aja Barber’s book on this just came out on the 5th. She’s my favorite voice on this topic.

www.vogue.com/article/aja-barber-consumed

[Susie]

If anyone is being "blamed" for this phenomenon, I think the article places that blame at Zappos' feet, although not necessarily attributing to them foresight to know the problems it would eventually cause.

Anecdotally I am starting to see more refunds without returns.  I bought a light fixture a year or so ago that was missing a screw in one non-weight-bearing spot; the company sent me another one and said keep/donate/do whatever with the old one.  I ended up using them both, one in my old house and one in my new one (we moved this summer).  Wayfair sent me a damaged book shelf and refunded me without return when they couldn't get replacement parts or a replacement unit.  Amazon did the same when I needed to return something recently (a subscription item I wasn't using anymore), so I took the refund and gave it away.  I am not sure refund w/o return is the answer, but at least it generated less waste.

I often return clothes that I buy online to store, particularly from places that don't offer return shipping but have a store near me.  Ann Taylor, Loft, and Nordstrom Rack are on that list.  It seems more likely that those returns are able to return to the racks, although IDK for sure.  Obviously that doesn't help for a lot of geographic areas and circumstances.

Anyway, my intention in sharing was in no way to shame anyone.  I had a vague sense that the carbon footprint associated with return shipping was not great, but it was helpful to me to have that laid out clearly so I can be more aware the issue and limit reliance on return shipping when practical/possible.  No shame when it is not.  

[mbcdefg]

Oct 8, 2021 11:40:24 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Oct 8, 2021 11:23:42 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

wanderingback , TR , I did read the article. I'm not saying the article is shaming the consumer, it's pretty plain in saying the environment was created by retailers and consumers are operating within the environment that was created.

My comment was more in response to the comment of - what the hell are we supposed to do to be more responsible consumers not contributing to the return problem when sizes aren't carried in store.

-Re-wear/have a "uniform" 

I like this idea a lot- I’ve primarily been sticking to this. I tend to wear a lot of the same clothes over and over because I have a WFH job (even before COVID) so I’m mostly in lounge clothes all the time. The downside is when I’m washing these same pieces more often since i wear them all the time, so certain things wear out more quickly. It’s still hard for me to find clothes in the first place that are stylish/presentable, comfortable, and actually fit well, so when I find something that works I tend to buy it in several/all available colors.

This whole thing reminds me of that tweet from BP that asked people to take a pledge to reduce their carbon emissions, and every response was “ok I pledge not to dump millions of gallons of oil into the gulf, how about you.” I think there was a similar post a while back that talked about those anti-littering campaigns from the 80s-90s that squarely blamed the consumer for not putting their soda bottle into the correct bin, and meanwhile major corporations are doing little/nothing to help.

[jinkies]

In my area there are a few storefronts popping up that appear to buy trailers of goods from Target, etc that include both discontinued items and returns. They bid on the trailers as a whole and then just sell whatever is in them. I used to know someone who did something similar, but sold the items on ebay instead of a storefront. It would be nice if retailers took the lead in developing a better system for selling returns-- like a "scratch and dent" store but for clothes, smaller homegoods, etc.

When my son was in 4-H, they somehow got connected with a few local Michael's stores and started taking any clearance/discontinued/returned items that the store would otherwise throw out. The kids would then sell the items as a fundraiser. It was truly an ASTONISHING amount of items that Michael's was just going to throw in the dumpster. But they were connected to the stores completely by chance, and lucked out that they had a volunteer with a large storage space to house everything.

I find it so disheartening that these companies would rather throw things away than find a way for them to be used. As someone who worked for a long time in non-profits, I have to imagine that there are a lot of items (household items, not so much clothing) that organizations could used as fundraisers.

[tacokick]

It is hard as a consumer to know what to do. I rarely return clothes since I switched to dresses and largely get them from eShakti which fits them to your measurements. They pride themselves on their employee benefits and high wages. They do sell returns at a discount, even the very customized pieces. But they are based in India so is that better? But if I can’t find clothes in person (my preference for many reasons) then what am I supposed to do? I don’t buy fast fashion and only buy to replace.

If stores don’t want to put clothes that are in the sizes that the majority of American women actually wear no amount of writing them a letter or only supporting and praising inclusive size stores is going to change anything. It sure hasn’t yet. It’s a very strange choice on the part of the stores to pass up a massive customer base because of what can only be fatphobia.

I really research items before I buy them so I don’t return virtually anything unless it’s broken but that does take a lot of time and energy. The easiest solution seems to just buy less but I think that’s a cycle a lot of people are in. Is being more upfront with what happens to returns going to change that?

[sent]

I’ve done this once or twice a year with Lord and Taylor and Macy’s in an effort to find work clothes but I really should just adopt a uniform for work and home and be done with spending energy on what to wear. I am so sad to see retailers closing forcing me online as they mentioned in the article. Most recently for me, the Disney Store closed most of their stores around the country and the Office Depot closest to me is having its going-out-of-business sale. After it closes, there will only be one left in the state. I don’t pretend to know how to fix this as I do a mix of retail shopping (mostly home stuff)and online shopping (mostly work stuff) but I will be more mindful of only buying stuff we intend to keep.

On the flip side, the vendors I have to use for work stuff have fairly strict return policies and the majority charge for shipping. This forces me to be more cognizant of inventory and place large orders only a few times a year. I don’t want to pay $13 in shipping for a tiny bottle of something that costs $10 just because I forgot to add it to my large order from last week and I’ll only do it if it’s absolutely necessary.

[neverfstop]

I thought there was an article a few years back about all the online (and free return) mattresses. Any of those returns can't be re-sold and many places won't accept donations of used mattresses.

fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-to-your-mail-order-mattress-after-you-return-it/

At the other end of those eerily identical ads I found a single seller — an independent agent for a new kind of company that’s aiming to solve the mattress companies’ problems and reduce landfill waste. Called Sharetown, it works kind of like Uber and Lyft: A mattress company contracts with Sharetown to handle returns and, when one pops up, Sharetown connects the customer with an nearby agent who takes the mattress off their hands, cleans it up, and markets it for sale on local community sites like Facebook and Craigslist. When the mattress sells, everybody gets a cut — the agent, Sharetown and the company that originally sold the mattress.


-----------
Related article from teh link....some high end brands burn clothes.
www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-dec-12-2019-1.5393783/it-s-pretty-staggering-returned-online-purchases-often-sent-to-landfill-journalist-s-research-reveals-1.5393806

[gummybear]

Jumping over from ML bc I work in retail and have always found the return process both fascinating and frustrating. Where I work, we almost encourage returns as a benefit to the consumer. We had a lifetime “return for any reason” policy until recently, which was changed to 60 days, because of abuse l. We don’t have a lot of stores (under 300 I think), so a very large percentage of our customers shop and return exclusively online. We do process a ton of online returns in store as well (yesterday I think the # was about 1/3-1/2 of what we had actually sold in store). Without getting into much too much boring detail, the vast vast majority is resellable. If something is damaged (stain, rip etc) it gets sent back and presumably destroyed, but if it’s worn employees have the opportunity to buy it at a steep discount, which I think is a great policy, both for my wallet and the environment. I’ve always been frustrated that barely damaged items can’t be donated (I understand why employees can’t buy them) especially since we are B Corp and it seems in line with those values.

[VillainV]

I wonder what happens with online retailers like StitchFix or Amazon Closet where the whole idea is to send stuff back. I’m about to send back several pieces of kids clothing that came in my son’s StitchFix box that didn’t even get tried on because they’re not his style or completely impractical (ie: fleece sweatpants in Florida…).

[audette]

I wear a "uniform" of sorts, most days - polo and jeans. Even with that, though, it's hard shop, because so few places offer in-person sales for plus size folks.

The jeans I am wearing right now are from a company that went out of business/closed all storefronts/was acquired almost a year ago (something along those lines, apparently they are now part of a family of clothing companies, most of which are online only). I have a heck of a time finding jeans that are actually comfortable to wear, will hold up to more than a couple months of wearing (sadness, at the end of all-cotton jeans... *sniff*), that I can also try on _at least one pair of_ before I buy. Same for shirts. I want to know how it sits on my shoulders, how deep the neckline goes, what the fabric feels like, etc... I don't need to try on 8 different fabric patterns of polo shirts, once I find a size and fabric type that I like - I'll happily buy the rest of the color/print options that I like once I know it fits and feels how I like.


I've said before, there should be a type of retailer that has, say, 2 of every size combo - size, petite, tall, slim, broad, weight of fabric, etc, and samples of all prints/washes/fabrics on site. You can try on the sizes, decide which fabrics you want the final clothes in, and place your order for home or store delivery in a week or so. Limited storefront space needed, lots of customization possibilities, and folks can try on things before buying. The biggest downside is that you can't have folks actually walk out the door with merchandise.

It would be a different way of shopping than what seems to be the expected norm today, but I want to believe that, at least in some markets, it would do quite well.

[zarapipe]

Oct 8, 2021 13:01:38 GMT -5 tacokick said:

It is hard as a consumer to know what to do. I rarely return clothes since I switched to dresses and largely get them from eShakti which fits them to your measurements. They pride themselves on their employee benefits and high wages. They do sell returns at a discount, even the very customized pieces. But they are based in India so is that better? But if I can’t find clothes in person (my preference for many reasons) then what am I supposed to do? I don’t buy fast fashion and only buy to replace.

If stores don’t want to put clothes that are in the sizes that the majority of American women actually wear no amount of writing them a letter or only supporting and praising inclusive size stores is going to change anything. It sure hasn’t yet. It’s a very strange choice on the part of the stores to pass up a massive customer base because of what can only be fatphobia.

I really research items before I buy them so I don’t return virtually anything unless it’s broken but that does take a lot of time and energy. The easiest solution seems to just buy less but I think that’s a cycle a lot of people are in. Is being more upfront with what happens to returns going to change that?

Can you tell me more about eShakti?

[tacokick]

Oct 10, 2021 13:11:00 GMT -5 zarapipe said:

Oct 8, 2021 13:01:38 GMT -5 tacokick said:

It is hard as a consumer to know what to do. I rarely return clothes since I switched to dresses and largely get them from eShakti which fits them to your measurements. They pride themselves on their employee benefits and high wages. They do sell returns at a discount, even the very customized pieces. But they are based in India so is that better? But if I can’t find clothes in person (my preference for many reasons) then what am I supposed to do? I don’t buy fast fashion and only buy to replace.

If stores don’t want to put clothes that are in the sizes that the majority of American women actually wear no amount of writing them a letter or only supporting and praising inclusive size stores is going to change anything. It sure hasn’t yet. It’s a very strange choice on the part of the stores to pass up a massive customer base because of what can only be fatphobia.

I really research items before I buy them so I don’t return virtually anything unless it’s broken but that does take a lot of time and energy. The easiest solution seems to just buy less but I think that’s a cycle a lot of people are in. Is being more upfront with what happens to returns going to change that?

Can you tell me more about eShakti?

They sell mostly dresses but they do sell some other items. I only wear dresses so I haven’t tried anything else. The dresses have pockets. I prefer to wear natural fibers and they have a large assortment of that.

You can buy an existing size (they go up to a women’s 36 aka a 6X and are pretty exact in the measurements they list) or you can customize it to your exact personal measurements for a small fee. Sometimes they wave the fee or have a sale. You can also customize any dress (also for a small fee) by changing the sleeves, length or neckline. They cut all to order and to your height automatically.

It does come from India but it gets here pretty quickly. I’ve had a dress arrive around 8 days after I ordered it but it generally takes about 2 weeks. They have frequent sales and rotating patterns/colors and styles. Some really fun patterns/styles seem to sell out quickly so if it is something I really want, I order it right away. There are some standard silhouettes that they use that you’ll start to notice but the variety is astounding.

They do sell the returns, you send them to a US a address. They take awhile to process but I’ve seen a customized dress I returned show up on their site so I know they actually are reselling them.

[zarapipe]

Oct 10, 2021 16:06:00 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Oct 10, 2021 13:11:00 GMT -5 zarapipe said:

Can you tell me more about eShakti?

They sell mostly dresses but they do sell some other items. I only wear dresses so I haven’t tried anything else. The dresses have pockets. I prefer to wear natural fibers and they have a large assortment of that.

You can buy an existing size (they go up to a women’s 36 aka a 6X and are pretty exact in the measurements they list) or you can customize it to your exact personal measurements for a small fee. Sometimes they wave the fee or have a sale. You can also customize any dress (also for a small fee) by changing the sleeves, length or neckline. They cut all to order and to your height automatically.

It does come from India but it gets here pretty quickly. I’ve had a dress arrive around 8 days after I ordered it but it generally takes about 2 weeks. They have frequent sales and rotating patterns/colors and styles. Some really fun patterns/styles seem to sell out quickly so if it is something I really want, I order it right away. There are some standard silhouettes that they use that you’ll start to notice but the variety is astounding.

They do sell the returns, you send them to a US a address. They take awhile to process but I’ve seen a customized dress I returned show up on their site so I know they actually are reselling them.

Thank you! I’m absolutely going to try them out. I love dresses but at a size 20 who is only 5’2 nothing is the right fit.

[tacokick]

Oct 10, 2021 23:00:09 GMT -5 zarapipe said:

Oct 10, 2021 16:06:00 GMT -5 tacokick said:

They sell mostly dresses but they do sell some other items. I only wear dresses so I haven’t tried anything else. The dresses have pockets. I prefer to wear natural fibers and they have a large assortment of that.

You can buy an existing size (they go up to a women’s 36 aka a 6X and are pretty exact in the measurements they list) or you can customize it to your exact personal measurements for a small fee. Sometimes they wave the fee or have a sale. You can also customize any dress (also for a small fee) by changing the sleeves, length or neckline. They cut all to order and to your height automatically.

It does come from India but it gets here pretty quickly. I’ve had a dress arrive around 8 days after I ordered it but it generally takes about 2 weeks. They have frequent sales and rotating patterns/colors and styles. Some really fun patterns/styles seem to sell out quickly so if it is something I really want, I order it right away. There are some standard silhouettes that they use that you’ll start to notice but the variety is astounding.

They do sell the returns, you send them to a US a address. They take awhile to process but I’ve seen a customized dress I returned show up on their site so I know they actually are reselling them.

Thank you! I’m absolutely going to try them out. I love dresses but at a size 20 who is only 5’2 nothing is the right fit.

Good luck! Just a FYI I do find that even though you give them your height they can run a little bit long so I normally tell them I am slightly shorter than I actually am.

[quesyrah]

Oct 10, 2021 23:00:09 GMT -5 zarapipe said:

Oct 10, 2021 16:06:00 GMT -5 tacokick said:

They sell mostly dresses but they do sell some other items. I only wear dresses so I haven’t tried anything else. The dresses have pockets. I prefer to wear natural fibers and they have a large assortment of that.

You can buy an existing size (they go up to a women’s 36 aka a 6X and are pretty exact in the measurements they list) or you can customize it to your exact personal measurements for a small fee. Sometimes they wave the fee or have a sale. You can also customize any dress (also for a small fee) by changing the sleeves, length or neckline. They cut all to order and to your height automatically.

It does come from India but it gets here pretty quickly. I’ve had a dress arrive around 8 days after I ordered it but it generally takes about 2 weeks. They have frequent sales and rotating patterns/colors and styles. Some really fun patterns/styles seem to sell out quickly so if it is something I really want, I order it right away. There are some standard silhouettes that they use that you’ll start to notice but the variety is astounding.

They do sell the returns, you send them to a US a address. They take awhile to process but I’ve seen a customized dress I returned show up on their site so I know they actually are reselling them.

Thank you! I’m absolutely going to try them out. I love dresses but at a size 20 who is only 5’2 nothing is the right fit.

You can also try panamina