I can't believe you can get her to bed that early! That's amazing, really. Since she does go to bed so early, I think i would move her alarm even a little earlier.
Do everything you can the night before. Sign papers, lay out clothes, pack snacks, whatever.
Incentives? If you are up and getting dressed before I come in, or by X time you are ready for breakfast or whatever, get points? It sounds like getting out of bed is a major issue.
I was somewhat like this and still am. I am just horribly not a morning person. I also really struggle with time management in the morning and was always on the verge of being late for school. But, I never managed to get to bed early, so that's part of my problem. I would stretch out things to fit the full amount of time I had, rather than keeping moving on a schedule. Also sounds a lot like my DD, but she doesn't get picked up this year for private middle school until 7:40 so that is basically saving us. If DS goes to public middle next year his bus will come at 6:20ish and I don't know how we are going to survive.
One thing that's helpful for me is to make the drop-dead must be ready time 5 minutes early. I have to consciously do this and plan on it, or I will not be ready early ever. Maybe do that, and then if she's ready in that last five minutes she gets to do XYZ that she likes (read? play a game? whatever). Make a whole morning schedule and show her how much time she has for each thing? might help her stay on track.
I think some of this plus incentives. And talk to her about how nobody wants to start the day rushing and yelling and stressed, including her, and how sticking to the plan will help everyone have a better day.
Honestly, the best I’ve come up with is minimizing everything that needs to happen in the morning so at least we just have the bare minimum to accomplish.
So, clothes are laid out (my mom picked my clothes out each day through 6th grade…), shoes are found, glasses/mask ready, lunch is packed, etc. so that all she has to do is get dressed, brush her teeth and hair, and grab her backpack and breakfast on the way out the door.
Dd is a bit younger (9) and has always been one to wake later. It’s just her circadian rhythm I guess. She was like this as a baby. It’s definitely worse when it gets light later so as much as I’m not looking forward to falling back, it will help with wake up a tiny bit at least.
I've also learned to barricade my door with anything "unusual" that I need that day that I'll forget, like projects, or special things beyond the normal lunch/purse/gym bag
Does she have a therapist with whom she works around the anxiety and OCD? Is she medicated for either?
I feel like middle school is when ownership of this trait starts to be handed over to the child. Perhaps touching base with a therapist for her to work on a plan to deal with this makes sense- once they have a plan and meeting with the 3 of you would be helpful.
I wonder if there is some way you can figure out when she's in REM sleep and try to wake her up before she enters that? I agree with nicolewi that you should try waking her up a little earlier to see if that helps.
I'm pretty far removed from having a middle schooler, but is 10 hours of sleep maybe too much?
Actually 10 hours is right on par with what a kid that age should be getting. Unfortunately it is not the norm, and I think a lot of people confuse the norm with what the correct amount of sleep actually is. Sleep is a big soap box issue for me, as I don't think a lot of people fully appreciate how much sleep deficits impair our health and well-being.
I would suggest a few things that others have suggested.
1) Double check and make sure there aren't phones/tablets being used late at night, you can usually double check the usage and time with ease. If they are being used at night, address it.
2) A sunrise alarm clock. Those things are super helpful, especially if you are waking up and it's still dark outside.
3) Our oldest is also not a morning person (to be fair neither am I). We tie her bedtime the following night/that weekend to how well she has gotten up and out of bed in the morning. When she gets up with minimal fuss and grump (for us that's one reminder nudge in the morning) she can stay up till her normal bedtime on weeknights, and half an hour-hour later on the weekend. If she was unwilling to get up her bedtime gets moved back earlier. It's cut down on a lot of the fuss. She's still not a morning person, but it's much more bearable. Having her behavior tied directly to a natural consequence the next evening plus a potential reward during the weekend seems to be the trick.
half an hour from bed to school is a really short window. Perhaps move that back to 6 am. And put on music that stays on instead of an alarm that can be snoozed.
It's still pretty rough some mornings getting my 6th grader up- she sleeps through alarms, lights, I'm pretty sure she could sleep through a parade across her bed. But, it's gotten remarkably better this year, which follows our "they grow out of it" experience with our 14yo (he is totally reliably up on his own now).
On the rough mornings, I resort to music- on the really rough mornings, it's music she doesn't like. LOL It helps that she doesn't have to be in school until 9:30, which gives her a lot of time to "come around" with a 7:30 wake-up. If she doesn't actually roll out of bed until 8, it's no big deal. 7:00/7:30 start times are miserable for that age!
I have to keep calling for my 13 year old after I go in, turn his alexa rainstorms sound off, and turn the hall light on, when I originally go and wake him up. I stay until I'm reasonably certain he hears me, and has woken up enough. Then I go downstairs, make his breakfast, and start calling for him when breakfast is ready. He usually comes down after the first call, but sometimes it takes up to 3 calls. He sleeps through his alarm clock and needs to be physically nudged.
My dad used to put ice cubes down the back on my pajama shirt (side sleeper). It worked. ha.
Have you talked to her about this? Is there a root cause? Is she tired? Hates school? Just doesn’t want to get up? Does she stay awake through the night?
I’ve never been one to hit snooze so I don’t "get" it, but I know some people are just like that. I would suggest seeing if she has a suggestion. But you could try making her go to bed earlier and then put an alarm across the room so she has to physically get out of bed to snooze it.
I personally like to wake up gently so now I wake up with vibration from my Apple Watch, but I’m guessing that method might not work for her. But just another option to think of if "startling” to wake up isn’t working.
As someone whose circadian rhythms have never been in sync with working society - the why is simply my body does not work before 9am. Going to be earlier doesn’t help, I just lay in bed awake for hours. Yes, it can be hours. But that’s me, at 47. Teens and preteens are wired to be up later and sleep later. Why We Sleep is a great book about it.
anyway, on the vibration thing, that might be an option. My H has said his mom got him a vibrating alarm back in the 80s. It was marketed for deaf folks and sat under the mattress. It was the only way he would get up in jr high.
Yes sorry my "she just doesn’t want to get up" wasn’t meant in a judge mental way, but more like her body won’t get her up. That’s still an underlying reason so it does sound like that may be it with OPs updates and can help her talk through some solutions since unfortunately society is on a wake up in the morning schedule in general :/
Like how are these kids going to get themselves up for a job someday when we are not here for them?
If it makes you feel any better I was terrible at getting up for school. Like once I started driving myself I don't think I ever went to my first class of the day in highschool. But once out I have had many jobs that started at 6am (so had to wake up at 4:30/5) and I was always on time for. Jobs I felt were more responsibility I guess?
My mom is a morning person and I know I drove her absolutely crazy growing up sleeping in so much, but I am a fully functioning, responsible adult lol.
Honestly, the best I’ve come up with is minimizing everything that needs to happen in the morning so at least we just have the bare minimum to accomplish.
So, clothes are laid out (my mom picked my clothes out each day through 6th grade…), shoes are found, glasses/mask ready, lunch is packed, etc. so that all she has to do is get dressed, brush her teeth and hair, and grab her backpack and breakfast on the way out the door.
Dd is a bit younger (9) and has always been one to wake later. It’s just her circadian rhythm I guess. She was like this as a baby. It’s definitely worse when it gets light later so as much as I’m not looking forward to falling back, it will help with wake up a tiny bit at least.
I've also learned to barricade my door with anything "unusual" that I need that day that I'll forget, like projects, or special things beyond the normal lunch/purse/gym bag
We do all of this with DD. That kid came out sleeping like the dead. We would have to wake her in the middle of the night for feedings. She slept through the night ridiculously early. DS is polar opposite and can run on 4 hours of sleep and no naps.
Post by schrodinger on Oct 18, 2021 10:16:29 GMT -5
SD1 was like this as well, it would take so much nagging to get her out of bed. We finally resorted to bribery because money is her motivator. We got her all the alarms that she wanted and taught her to use them, then we told her that we would pay her $100 at the end of the semester. If she missed the bus because she couldn't get herself out of bed and out the door on time, we would lower the amount by $20 to be driven to school + $5 for each missed class (I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was a lot). Then we just stopped nagging and let her do her own thing and she made it to school on time every day.
The next semester we lowered it to $50, then after that we said we weren't paying her since she had demonstrated she was capable of getting up on her own in the mornings.
Probably wouldn't work for younger kids, but it was the motivation she needed.
Post by whattheheck on Oct 18, 2021 10:52:13 GMT -5
Maybe try moving her wake up time to earlier so that she’s not rushing. I can’t go from sound asleep to out the door in thirty minutes without being stressed or grumpy. What worked for my DS was doing breakfast first and then getting the rest of the way ready. This was he was doing something (eating) and engaging with me while I made lunches and that helped him wake up since he couldn’t just skip back into bed or nod off.
Post by DotAndBuzz on Oct 18, 2021 11:23:32 GMT -5
Our magic trick seemed to be hot chocolate.
My 13 year old is the type of person for whom morning coffee will be life changing when she can finally have it, lol. She has NEVER been a morning kid. ever. No matter the age.
We found that hot chocolate ever morning has proven a good substitute/incentive to get up and moving. I make it with milk, so it's not just sugar water, and knowing that's waiting for her to nurse during breakfast downstairs really helps get her up moving.
We also have to set her alarm way before she *needs* to be up. I'm not one to be able to just jump out of bed, and neither is she. She has to snooze for a solid 30 minutes before I can reasonably expect her to get up. So we set her alarm earlier so she can do that. That was her choice, instead of getting "true" sleep for 30 more minutes, and it seems to work. We also built in more time for her to get ready. She moves at the speed of sloth in the morning, so 30 minutes to be up and out the door is not a reasonable expectation for her. She needs at least 45 minutes from when her feet hit the ground, so that, on top of the 30 minute snooze.
Those things together seem to have helped us a lot, but she still has mornings where I need to light a fire under her feet.
Good luck! Sleep stuff is so hard!
eta - I make my own hot chocolate mix in large batches so I don't go broke buying packets, lol. 3 parts sugar, 1 part cocoa powder (I do 1 cup sugar, 1/3 cup cocoa powder). generous spoonful of that in a mug of milk, microwave, done.
+1 to trying a sunrise alarm clock, positioned near the bedside. You’ll probably want another sound alarm that’s further away (so she has to get out of bed to turn it off) but the gradual brightening helps me HUGELY in gently taking me out of deep sleep into lighter sleep so I can wake more easily and cheerfully.
Do you have a plan for when he needs to be responsible for himself? Like how are these kids going to get themselves up for a job someday when we are not here for them?
Hello from the other side LOL. I am still like this.
Honestly, I figured it out. I went to college and had no choice.
Once I started working, I developed systems that worked for me and minimized what I had to do to leave the house in the am. That system included bringing breakfast with me to work, and keeping my makeup in a bag that I could bring with me to do my makeup in the car if needed. Not ideal. But I promise I am a high functioning member of society. Just not before 9 am.
It has been hard with kids. DD is just like me and honestly it has been difficult when we both want to stay in bed till the last possible second.
For various reasons, I am getting up much earlier this school year. And, surprise surprise, DD is also getting up much better even though her bus comes 45 minutes earlier than last year.
I know it sounds counterintuitive when it feels like being tired is the problem. But getting up earlier and allowing ourselves more time to be slow in the morning has helped a lot. We also have clothes laid out/bags packed/breakfast planned the night before to minimize the need to think.
My middle schoolers use an alarm clock app that makes you do puzzle, math problems, or scan a qr code that you hang somewhere far away from your bed.
Mine use the math problem one. You have to do five problems in a row and you can set the difficulty. It stops ringing while you work on them but if you stop or are just putting nonsense numbers in, it starts buzzing again.
It's been shockingly effective for my kids and my son sounds just like your daughter. I didn't think it would work for him, I thought he'd just do the problems and go back to sleep.
The one we use is just a free one I found on the Google play store called Alarm clock for heavy sleepers.
I'm sure this is a good idea and effective, but I would murder someone who made me do math problems on the clock moments after waking up.
My mom woke me up a lot during high school. I assure you that I’m a fully functional member of society. My internal clock is set to wake between 7am and 8am so school starting at 7:45am was brutal. It’s very difficult to fight against the pull of sleep when that is what your body wants. It’s the same for falling asleep. I was the kid at sleepovers yawning and eyes closed at 11:30pm while every else was up awake until 2am!
I adopted things to help - I do very little in the morning aside from eat and get dressed. I’ve learned to deal with feeling sleepy. I drink coffee.
I think school is not timed with the vast majority of people’s internal schedules. My daughter’s school starts at 8:15am and we struggle to be up and dressed on time. We had some leeway in picking adult schedules that fit with our own clocks but the kids have no choice with their school schedule. College has more class time choices and sleeping late is often something that is grown out of as we age.
tl;dr - I’m understanding that sleep is great and kids want it. It’s not a forever problem.
My middle schoolers use an alarm clock app that makes you do puzzle, math problems, or scan a qr code that you hang somewhere far away from your bed.
Mine use the math problem one. You have to do five problems in a row and you can set the difficulty. It stops ringing while you work on them but if you stop or are just putting nonsense numbers in, it starts buzzing again.
It's been shockingly effective for my kids and my son sounds just like your daughter. I didn't think it would work for him, I thought he'd just do the problems and go back to sleep.
The one we use is just a free one I found on the Google play store called Alarm clock for heavy sleepers.
I'm sure this is a good idea and effective, but I would murder someone who made me do math problems on the clock moments after waking up.
Like I said, you can pick different things. You don't have to pick math.
She has a phone that she takes to school and gives back to me when she gets home. It stays with me in my room so she definitely doesn’t have it.
She is a really good and solid sleeper. I don’t think it’s that she has a lack of sleep as much as she just is hard to transition from asleep to awake.
I still might wonder about sleep apnea, so she's getting "a lot" of sleep, but maybe not the quality she needs.
Once she's up and moving, how is she? Is her energy level ok?
I think these are fair questions. It would drive me crazy if my DD snoozed her alarm and then made ME be the alarm. If she physically CAN’T get out of bed because she’s in such a deep sleep, perhaps it’s worth raising the issue with her pediatrician. But otherwise, as someone who HATES getting up early, I’ll say that hitting the snooze button is counterproductive. What you’re describing, OP, sounds almost like a power struggle. Between the Alexa and her mom coming in, I doubt she’s sleeping that deeply after her alarm goes off. So she just needs to start with step 1: no snoozing.
I'm sure this is a good idea and effective, but I would murder someone who made me do math problems on the clock moments after waking up.
Like I said, you can pick different things. You don't have to pick math.
I get the idea of the app, and am glad it works for you guys (truly, no snark here). But I think there are definitely kids/adults for whom this idea would make them RAGE. Myself, and my older daughter included.
The idea of a "job/task" to do immediately upon getting up, even if it's supposed to be fun.....I can literally see the look she would give me, and it's along the line of "get out of my room, absolutely fucking not."
My other daughter would love this. But she also jumps out of bed ready to tackle the world, so she wouldn't *need* the app. Older daughter is basically a bear in the morning. Don't make eye contact, and poke at your own risk, lol.
I still might wonder about sleep apnea, so she's getting "a lot" of sleep, but maybe not the quality she needs.
Once she's up and moving, how is she? Is her energy level ok?
I think these are fair questions. It would drive me crazy if my DD snoozed her alarm and then made ME be the alarm. If she physically CAN’T get out of bed because she’s in such a deep sleep, perhaps it’s worth raising the issue with her pediatrician. But otherwise, as someone who HATES getting up early, I’ll say that hitting the snooze button is counterproductive. What you’re describing, OP, sounds almost like a power struggle. Between the Alexa and her mom coming in, I doubt she’s sleeping that deeply after her alarm goes off. So she just needs to start with step 1: no snoozing.
I’ve had full on dreams between snoozes, and my alarm sound is frequently incorporated into the dream so it doesn’t even immediately wake me up. I’ve had a lot of really weird dreams about hanging out with my morning radio djs when I have my radio come on in the morning.
Some people really have a hard time getting up, and it’s not a moral failing or laziness.
Post by penguingrrl on Oct 18, 2021 18:44:47 GMT -5
I still struggle with this. I’m never late for work, but I was constantly late in HS. Even as an adult, I function at my best when I have the luxury of getting 10-12 hours of sleep a night. When pregnant I needed 14 (a 2 hour nap and 12 hours overnight). Some people just have different sleep needs than others.
My sister was a nightmare with this. Most of my middle and high school years I was woken up by my mom screaming to try to get her to wake up (she slept soooo deeply). She’s now a surgeon working all kinds of strange and insanely early hours and makes it work, including being up to run before (she often gets up at 3:30-4:00 to run 10 miles before getting to the hospital by 6:00).
For me, setting an earlier alarm would be far worse. My body needs every second of deep sleep it can possibly get or I get worn out. I also don’t do well if I don’t sleep in on weekends. Work days I wake up between 5:30 and 6:30 depending on my workout schedule, but I can only function doing that if I sleep past 10 on days off. If I miss sleeping in I’m a mess.
I would just keep helping her, and be understanding that schools have schedules that are at odds with adolescent (and some adult) sleep schedules.
I would wonder about the quality of sleep that she is getting. Does she wake up a lot? Even if just for a bit, that is still interrupted sleep.
I am not a morning person. At all, especially as a kid. I think not having black out type shades or curtains was good to combat this in me. I might suggest she set her alarm earlier than she needs and rather than hit snooze, maybe she gets dressed and watches a little TV or something that allows her brain to wake up but does not require conversation. Sometimes moving yourself from your bed does help that process along.
If you have a smart watch that perhaps she can wear for a few nights while sleeping, maybe you can get a better picture of the quality of sleep she is getting at night.
I am just like her. I can have conversations, get up and turn my Alarm off and go back to bed and fall right asleep. I’ve slept through fire alarms, security alarms, etc. my problem is that I do my heavy sleeping from like 5am-9am. It’s hard to wake my body up before then and yet I do it everyday. It doesn’t matter what time I go to bed. Even if I fall asleep early I never get good sleep and then I fall into a deep sleep around 5am.
For me, the only thing that has helped in bringing in something I want to stay awake for. So DH will bring me coffee or turn the tv on so I start trying to watch it. I have to actively WAKE myself up. I cannot rely on my sleep just being interrupted. This has been an issue my entire life.
When I’m waking up in the morning, it feels like I’m being ripped from another universe. I think this feeling is tough for morning people to relate to!
A sweet, soft, cozy, warm, magically lovely universe. Why would I want to leave before I have to?
I think this is one of those things that some of us will just never understand. I’m definitely a morning person who sleeps like crap all the time no matter what I’ve tried. OP, even though I can’t relate, I think you’ve gotten some good suggestions here, and I hope one of them works out for your family. I think a trip to the pedi to rule out anything serious might not be a bad idea, but it sounds like she may just be the kind of person who has trouble waking up. This sounds like a truly frustrating situation.