Holy shit. I know that I am in the minority because I believe in higher education for education's sake. I think it benefits everyone to have a well-educated populace. And sorry, but no, that doesn't just mean STEM education or something that leads directly to a clear-cut job. This country is in a huge GD heaping pile of trouble because of a growing prevalence of anti-intellectualist thinking. And whether people want to admit it or not, that sentiment includes everyone who who perpetuates this ridiculous narrative of all college education should lead to a specific, clearly defined job/career. Everyone saying that kind of crap can GFY. That idea is part of the damn problem. I got two "worthless" degrees that, if measured by some of the comments I'm seeing here and elsewhere, shouldn't have been allowed to be funded by student loans or 'Merica. Guess what? I'm your unicorn. I have a very ambiguous BA and an even more obscure MA in two liberal arts fields. I parlayed them into law school admissions, where I borrowed almost the full cost of attendance, and I now make around $500k per year. People can kick rocks if they think my education isn't worthy enough to borrow from their blessed tax money.
Holy shit. I know that I am in the minority because I believe in higher education for education's sake. I think it benefits everyone to have a well-educated populace. And sorry, but no, that doesn't just mean STEM education or something that leads directly to a clear-cut job. This country is in a huge GD heaping pile of trouble because of a growing prevalence of anti-intellectualist thinking. And whether people want to admit it or not, that sentiment includes everyone who who perpetuates this ridiculous narrative of all college education should lead to a specific, clearly defined job/career. Everyone saying that kind of crap can GFY. That idea is part of the damn problem. I got two "worthless" degrees that, if measured by some of the comments I'm seeing here and elsewhere, shouldn't have been allowed to be funded by student loans or 'Merica. Guess what? I'm your unicorn. I have a very ambiguous BA and an even more obscure MA in two liberal arts fields. I parlayed them into law school admissions, where I borrowed almost the full cost of attendance, and I now make around $500k per year. People can kick rocks if they think my education isn't worthy enough to borrow from their blessed tax money.
Yes! And it would be just as valid if you’d done all that and chosen to become a public defender or an ADA or any other area of law that is super important and pays like crap because it’s undervalued relative to the cost of education. I promise that people do not want to live in a world where these professions are even harder to recruit for/facing even worse shortages than they already are, or where the only people who can choose to pursue them are those with generational wealth.
Holy shit. I know that I am in the minority because I believe in higher education for education's sake. I think it benefits everyone to have a well-educated populace. And sorry, but no, that doesn't just mean STEM education or something that leads directly to a clear-cut job. This country is in a huge GD heaping pile of trouble because of a growing prevalence of anti-intellectualist thinking. And whether people want to admit it or not, that sentiment includes everyone who who perpetuates this ridiculous narrative of all college education should lead to a specific, clearly defined job/career. Everyone saying that kind of crap can GFY. That idea is part of the damn problem. I got two "worthless" degrees that, if measured by some of the comments I'm seeing here and elsewhere, shouldn't have been allowed to be funded by student loans or 'Merica. Guess what? I'm your unicorn. I have a very ambiguous BA and an even more obscure MA in two liberal arts fields. I parlayed them into law school admissions, where I borrowed almost the full cost of attendance, and I now make around $500k per year. People can kick rocks if they think my education isn't worthy enough to borrow from their blessed tax money.
I chose my MBA program based on what I’d be able to afford as a loan payment instead of the top school I was admitted to. But I was “old” when I went for my MBA and had friends who already went to b-school giving me advice on that choice based on what they saw from their peers. I was unique in that.
But I quoted to say that I 1000% agree that basing loan caps off perceived value of a degree is just shortsighted. I was a theater major. I have a masters in theater as well. My DH was also a theater major. Neither of us work in performing arts any more. We have “real” jobs and have a higher household income than most. In fact, most of our friends who were theater majors are some of the highest earners we know. Clearly these are just personal examples, but creative majors get the shaft in these conversations, so I always feel the need to defend them.
God, this is so infuriating. And I say all of this as someone who did everything "right". The system worked for me exactly as people claim it should. I went to state schools, I had scholarships, grants, loans and also worked the entire time I was in school. I got a job right away andI paid off my loans. By all definitions, I am a bootstraps story. And I don't give one flipping fug if other people get this debt forgiven and I don't get a cent.
I think y’all know that student debt is not my #1 political priority (def support it though) but holy shit some of these arguments are gross.
Just fuck everyone who got bad advice about what kind of debt to salary ratios were acceptable for student loans I guess. Fuck the whole generation of us who went to college before the widespread reckoning about the student loan debt crisis and then graduated from college into one of the worst recessions this country has ever seen. Especially extra fuck us first generation students who didn’t have anyone to give us alternatives beyond college that could provide for a better life (and before anyone starts waxing about trades, going into trades has not saved 90% of my high school classmates from a life of poverty so I’m not really here for that argument.)
You have to be so incredibly myopic not to recognize that other people have different life circumstances than you and then assert that all policy should be based on people like you making the choices you made and fuck everyone else because personal responsibility and bootstraps. If you’re not a Republican with that attitude you sure sound like one.
Oh the bolded has me 😭😭
For me, I just was a nerd and wanted to do science stuff. Not going to college (and taking on some amount of debt to pay for it) was never an option. You can't be a poorly paid researcher without degrees. And I decided I didn't want a PhD, so I took on debt for my master's in public health - at least I was smart about that and went to an affordable public school. But I wasn't eligible for PSLF/income based repayments because I was married to someone with a good-paying job.
Holy shit. I know that I am in the minority because I believe in higher education for education's sake. I think it benefits everyone to have a well-educated populace. And sorry, but no, that doesn't just mean STEM education or something that leads directly to a clear-cut job. This country is in a huge GD heaping pile of trouble because of a growing prevalence of anti-intellectualist thinking. And whether people want to admit it or not, that sentiment includes everyone who who perpetuates this ridiculous narrative of all college education should lead to a specific, clearly defined job/career. Everyone saying that kind of crap can GFY. That idea is part of the damn problem. I got two "worthless" degrees that, if measured by some of the comments I'm seeing here and elsewhere, shouldn't have been allowed to be funded by student loans or 'Merica. Guess what? I'm your unicorn. I have a very ambiguous BA and an even more obscure MA in two liberal arts fields. I parlayed them into law school admissions, where I borrowed almost the full cost of attendance, and I now make around $500k per year. People can kick rocks if they think my education isn't worthy enough to borrow from their blessed tax money.
I chose my MBA program based on what I’d be able to afford as a loan payment instead of the top school I was admitted to. But I was “old” when I went for my MBA and had friends who already went to b-school giving me advice on that choice based on what they saw from their peers. I was unique in that.
But I quoted to say that I 1000% agree that basing loan caps off perceived value of a degree is just shortsighted. I was a theater major. I have a masters in theater as well. My DH was also a theater major. Neither of us work in performing arts any more. We have “real” jobs and have a higher household income than most. In fact, most of our friends who were theater majors are some of the highest earners we know. Clearly these are just personal examples, but creative majors get the shaft in these conversations, so I always feel the need to defend them.
Absolutely. I made choices on schools based on finances. Everything worked out OK in the end, but I'd be lying if I didn't often wonder how things could've been different had I made choices to go to better (and more expensive) schools. I can't begrudge people for making a choice that I often wish I had as well.
Holy shit. I know that I am in the minority because I believe in higher education for education's sake. I think it benefits everyone to have a well-educated populace. And sorry, but no, that doesn't just mean STEM education or something that leads directly to a clear-cut job. This country is in a huge GD heaping pile of trouble because of a growing prevalence of anti-intellectualist thinking. And whether people want to admit it or not, that sentiment includes everyone who who perpetuates this ridiculous narrative of all college education should lead to a specific, clearly defined job/career. Everyone saying that kind of crap can GFY. That idea is part of the damn problem. I got two "worthless" degrees that, if measured by some of the comments I'm seeing here and elsewhere, shouldn't have been allowed to be funded by student loans or 'Merica. Guess what? I'm your unicorn. I have a very ambiguous BA and an even more obscure MA in two liberal arts fields. I parlayed them into law school admissions, where I borrowed almost the full cost of attendance, and I now make around $500k per year. People can kick rocks if they think my education isn't worthy enough to borrow from their blessed tax money.
Yes! And it would be just as valid if you’d done all that and chosen to become a public defender or an ADA or any other area of law that is super important and pays like crap because it’s undervalued relative to the cost of education. I promise that people do not want to live in a world where these professions are even harder to recruit for/facing even worse shortages than they already are, or where the only people who can choose to pursue them are those with generational wealth.
100%. I am very fortunate to be where I am financially, but I could just as easily be on the other side of the coin. There are a lot of undervalued, worth professions, both in the legal field and elsewhere, and this whole topic just gets my blood boiling.
Post by lilypad1126 on Dec 24, 2021 10:15:45 GMT -5
I don’t know why I keep coming back to this thread, it just keeps pissing me off. There was a zero percent chance I could have gone to college/law school without loans. And when I went (98-05) federal loans were only available for a small part of my financing. I had to also take out private loans (and, by the way, I went to “paltry”, “cheap” state schools). I’ve been lying my loans back like a responsible citizen since I graduated in 2005. I STILL owe almost 6 figures (as in, just in the last couple months did it drop to 5 figures). If I qualify for PSLF, Only half of my total will be forgive (see again, private loans).
And sure, it’s ok, I can afford it. But only because I’m married and my H covers some household expenses. And I’ve been lucky that my parents now have a little extra money and can help with some small things. My loan pay,ents are $1200 per month. And by the end, I’ll have paid that for more than 20 years. Do you know what I could do with that money if I wasn’t paying back what will basically be DOUBLE what my degrees cost?
And it kills me that people think the answer is just, well if you can’t afford college and your “dream” career, you should just go into the trades/skip college/work your way through. That just intensifies the wealth/education gap, and damn, shouldn’t education be available for everyone? Tuition is INSANE. I work in/around higher Ed, and I know the argument is, well we have to raise tuition bc we don’t get money from the state/fed government. And it’s true (maybe not the whole reason but definitely a part of it). Why are we ok with that? Education, from beginning to end, is so under funded and it’s creating so many of the problems we are facing in this country. But education doesn’t just mean STEM classes/professional degrees. The students I went to law school with, who had more of those liberal arts degrees, were some of the best students. The critical thinking skills they learned were invaluable. But again, the only way to afford it was either have rich parents or finance it with student loans.
Again, I think it’s a two prong approach. Forgive student loans AND reform higher ed pricing structure.
The idea of capping loan amounts based on expected future earning is some capitalist bullshit that perpetuates the nonsense that an education is only as good as the money it earns you. But also...have you thought through what that would do to the schools themselves??
I went to a pricey school with a really strong engineering and computer science program but ALSO a well respected and thriving music, fine arts and performing arts program. That school would be a very very different place, for the worse, without the arts kids there. But if you capped their loans, I don't see how that program wouldn't wither for lack of students. Are you assuming here that the downward pressure on the lower earning programs would get schools like this to lower their tuition? despite the other programs that have far more students still being able to pay it? Because that is a hell of an assumption. I could see some schools responding to the downward pressure with lower tuition, especially the smaller liberal arts schools, but then we'd end up with a landscape with an even SHARPER divide than the one we have now between schools for clear high earning fields and schools for teaching, social work, the arts and similar. Which is not a good outcome! That's an ugly picture where we're rewarding schools for letting their liberal arts programs die. WTF.
Is there some reason that we are not looking at limiting student loans? That is a big part of the problem. If you are getting a degree in Music Therapy, you lifetime earnings are limited. You should not be allowed to take out student loans for $200K. Same with parent loans. I was just talking to my FIL, and he has a friend who is 80, who has $300K in student loans for his 4 kids, plus whatever they have. It is great that little Josphyne gets into X marks the spot University, but if you can't afford to pay for it, with more than a car loan, it is very likely best that she goes to Y, and gets a better deal. It is infuriating to me that they want tax payer dollars to cover college student loans, when they are the highest earners. We need more trades people. I have a friend who works in a factory. He wants to retire, but his employer cannot find apprentices who are interested in doing the kind of work he does, which requires a great deal of skill and training, but not a college degree. He does well, and was here on a visa for many years, until he became a citizen. If college degrees cannot fund themselves, then perhaps we should re-evaluate what we are teaching.
So folks are now the arbiters of what a worthy area of study is, too.
I assume next on your chopping block after music therapy would be Black studies, Queer studies, Chicano studies, Women’s studies, Diaspora studies, Disability studies…. You know, more useless shit. 🙃
Holy shit. I know that I am in the minority because I believe in higher education for education's sake. I think it benefits everyone to have a well-educated populace. And sorry, but no, that doesn't just mean STEM education or something that leads directly to a clear-cut job. This country is in a huge GD heaping pile of trouble because of a growing prevalence of anti-intellectualist thinking. And whether people want to admit it or not, that sentiment includes everyone who who perpetuates this ridiculous narrative of all college education should lead to a specific, clearly defined job/career. Everyone saying that kind of crap can GFY. That idea is part of the damn problem. I got two "worthless" degrees that, if measured by some of the comments I'm seeing here and elsewhere, shouldn't have been allowed to be funded by student loans or 'Merica. Guess what? I'm your unicorn. I have a very ambiguous BA and an even more obscure MA in two liberal arts fields. I parlayed them into law school admissions, where I borrowed almost the full cost of attendance, and I now make around $500k per year. People can kick rocks if they think my education isn't worthy enough to borrow from their blessed tax money.
Yes! And it would be just as valid if you’d done all that and chosen to become a public defender or an ADA or any other area of law that is super important and pays like crap because it’s undervalued relative to the cost of education. I promise that people do not want to live in a world where these professions are even harder to recruit for/facing even worse shortages than they already are, or where the only people who can choose to pursue them are those with generational wealth.
100%. I am very fortunate to be where I am financially, but I could just as easily be on the other side of the coin. There are a lot of undervalued, worth professions, both in the legal field and elsewhere, and this whole topic just gets my blood boiling.
** I am in one of those undervalued professions (early education). I have a MS degree. I am good at what I do, but imojoebunny's approach would limit loans to students pursuing this path because we are severely underpaid.
Post by Jalapeñomel on Dec 24, 2021 12:12:02 GMT -5
I have a BFA in musical theater and then went back to get a BS in chemistry followed by a MAT. Sure my chem degree makes me super marketable for teaching, but the teaching position I have now is because I have both degrees and can run the theater program next year when the director retires and teach AP chem.
DH has a PhD in English and is an associate professor. His schooling had a measly stipend no one could live on, yet the PhD is required for his job.
I had my loans forgiven for teaching, but still have lots left that I can’t pay because they want me to pay over $1500 a month between DH and I, something that’s not even remotely affordable (with a mortgage and two children in a VHCOL area). And when it’s all said and done, we’d be paying twice as much as we took out because of the interest. It’s utter bullshit.
Holy shit. I know that I am in the minority because I believe in higher education for education's sake. I think it benefits everyone to have a well-educated populace. And sorry, but no, that doesn't just mean STEM education or something that leads directly to a clear-cut job. This country is in a huge GD heaping pile of trouble because of a growing prevalence of anti-intellectualist thinking. And whether people want to admit it or not, that sentiment includes everyone who who perpetuates this ridiculous narrative of all college education should lead to a specific, clearly defined job/career. Everyone saying that kind of crap can GFY. That idea is part of the damn problem. I got two "worthless" degrees that, if measured by some of the comments I'm seeing here and elsewhere, shouldn't have been allowed to be funded by student loans or 'Merica. Guess what? I'm your unicorn. I have a very ambiguous BA and an even more obscure MA in two liberal arts fields. I parlayed them into law school admissions, where I borrowed almost the full cost of attendance, and I now make around $500k per year. People can kick rocks if they think my education isn't worthy enough to borrow from their blessed tax money.
Yes! And it would be just as valid if you’d done all that and chosen to become a public defender or an ADA or any other area of law that is super important and pays like crap because it’s undervalued relative to the cost of education. I promise that people do not want to live in a world where these professions are even harder to recruit for/facing even worse shortages than they already are, or where the only people who can choose to pursue them are those with generational wealth.
Exactly. There are plenty of people who have careers that require masters and doctoral level training, yet don’t make a lot of money, but still have tons of student loans…due to insane tuition and interest rates.
Not all lawyers make 500k, nor do all doctors. Plenty of people with PhDs don’t make 6 figures either….yet we all have to go to school for 7+ years after high school.
I am not complaining about my salary at all, but I’m in one of the lower paying specialties, yet I have $360,000 in loans all from med school. So I did the "right" thing and have a good career, I work in public health where my salary is even lower because that work is important to me, yet my loans have definitely influenced a lot of what my life path looks like (I definitely barely have anything in retirement and I’m getting close to 40…).
Also, this is a pointless story. I wanted to get a PhD in 19th century Spanish literature. My undergrad was in Spanish. Too many people discouraged it and told me to do something "marketable" and so I added a double major. It got me nowhere when the economy crashed. I ultimately went back for nursing school and now am a nurse practitioner. It was attainable at the time and I would be able to pay off my loans.
I didn't foresee getting divorced and a global pandemic that eliminated job opportunities while healthcare systems tried to cut costs and continue to make money therefore not being able to afford my $1900/month payment once I graduated and started working.
Post by gretchenindisguise on Dec 24, 2021 15:25:05 GMT -5
Society: we need doctors and nurses and mental health professionals and educators and we’d like them to be diverse please and thank you.
Also society: but only if you were born into a family that can afford to pay out of pocket or knows how to navigate the quagmire of scholarships and grants. Kthanksbye
Post by basilosaurus on Dec 24, 2021 16:47:21 GMT -5
This goes beyond stem vs humanities imo. I started in bio engineering, ended up in bio. Both barely got me minimum wage. Researching cancer you do for love, not money.
FIL public defender for decades. Definitely not wealthy.
Why is earning potential proof of value to society? Oh, right, murca
If you are getting a degree in Music Therapy, you lifetime earnings are limited.
You seem awfully, uh, devoted to establishing your opinions about the the worth of a "music therapy" degree.
Do you even have any kind of decent knowledge about the field of music therapy?
I was under the impression, based on the experiences of one of my college friends, that professionals certified (and yes, the field requires certification) in music therapy work with such populations as patients recovering from strokes, etc.
We had a music therapist at the inpatient psychiatric hospital where I did my internship. She was worth her weight in gold.
If you are getting a degree in Music Therapy, you lifetime earnings are limited.
You seem awfully, uh, devoted to establishing your opinions about the the worth of a "music therapy" degree.
Do you even have any kind of decent knowledge about the field of music therapy?
I was under the impression, based on the experiences of one of my college friends, that professionals certified (and yes, the field requires certification) in music therapy work with such populations as patients recovering from strokes, etc.
You think if this short sighted ass knew what music therapy was she'd be so vehemently opposed? Unless, maybe, she's of the school of thought that any therapy is for weak minded simps who should just suck it up, buttercup. I'm not ruling either out.
I've definitely seen some woo in music and dance therapy. But I have far more examples of it being not just healing but near on miraculous. I'm guessing anyone who shits on it has never spent a day in any kind of rehab unit, whether memory care, post stroke, you name it.
I may be getting angrier as this goes on. And before too many people buy me Christmas drinks, I'm out. (And bless these Muslim countries who think hospitality is buying white people Christmas drinks!)
This is my understanding of the loan problem as my younger colleagues regularly graduate with $500k+ in debt.
Back in my day in grad school (2000 - 2004), federal loans were capped and there were private lenders who loaned you the rest if you were pursuing a degree or attended a school that cost more than federal loans available to you. In 2007, under President Bush with bipartisan support, the government increased the interest rate on federal loans to something like 7%, created new loan products and made loans limitless. This in turn gave schools free reign to hike tuition to insanity because why not. The private lenders all left the student loan market and here we are 14 years later.
I don’t know the permanent solution but it has not been a completely screwy system for my entire lifetime. At this point I’m ok with canceling some debt for people. I mean we flung out PPP loans that turned into grants with almost no oversight and no checks and balances to see if businesses actually needed the money, what’s the big deal if we do this for the regular people out there? Inflation is coming no matter what we do.
You seem awfully, uh, devoted to establishing your opinions about the the worth of a "music therapy" degree.
Do you even have any kind of decent knowledge about the field of music therapy?
I was under the impression, based on the experiences of one of my college friends, that professionals certified (and yes, the field requires certification) in music therapy work with such populations as patients recovering from strokes, etc.
We had a music therapist at the inpatient psychiatric hospital where I did my internship. She was worth her weight in gold.
I have a friend who is a music therapist and works with the kids from a specific school shooting to overcome their trauma. I have no idea what she is paid but I am certain it is not enough.
We had a music therapist at the inpatient psychiatric hospital where I did my internship. She was worth her weight in gold.
I have a friend who is a music therapist and works with the kids from a specific school shooting to overcome their trauma. I have no idea what she is paid but I am certain it is not enough.
. I have worked with several music therapists. All of which have student loans, none of which make a lot of money. But they all support themselves and live comfortable middle class lifestyles. And I live in NYC, so these particular people live in a VHCOL and still get by while also having a very fulfilling career. imojoebunny I have no idea why you latched onto music therapy to fuel your rant, but obviously you know nothing about it, so maybe stop showing your ass on this one.
I was only able to go to undergrad because I got a state scholarship that paid for almost everything. I had to commute and pay for books. My parents only contributed $100 or so per semester. So my choices were very limited, but I graduated without debt.
When I decided to go for a masters, I knew I could only manage to do an online program. And very few schools offered an online version of the program I wanted to study. So again, my choices were limited. I covered the tuition with government loans, and I still have 5 figures to pay off (I've been paying on them for seven years). I'm grateful I received a fellowship that helped with some of the costs, but I'll still be paying on these loans for at least ten more years.
I use everything I learned in school at my current job, but I am a woman in the tech industry and I know I'm underpaid for what I do.
All that to say... it just all feels so predatory. None of us can be ALL THE THINGS. We need scientists and doctors. We also need the arts. And in a capitalist society, everyone needs money.
With all the interest I've paid on my loans, I've actually already paid back the original amount I took out. But I still have 5 figures worth of debt. The absolute minimum government could do would be to stop collecting interest. And if they just outright cancel the debt? I know how much relief that would bring me. How much weight would fall off my shoulders. And I know there are so many others who would feel that... I think sometimes it shouldn't be about absolute fairness. It should just be about the greatest good.
Where does all that interest money go anyway? The school has already been paid, so who is benefitting from this current loan system?
Also, fuck "bootstraps." That concept is poisonous.
Post by goldengirlz on Dec 25, 2021 14:38:11 GMT -5
Here’s the thing about state schools:
1) They’re still really, really expensive, some of the most expensive degrees in the world.
2) Why should we tell the children of the middle and lower class that they don’t get the golden tickets that elite private schools provide? I’m not saying they necessarily provide a better education (though sometimes they do have some of the best research facilities and most well-known professors) — but if they didn’t open doors, the ultra-rich wouldn’t be bribing admissions officials to get in. Why should “elite” universities just be finishing schools for the wealthy?
Here’s the truth about “high-earning” careers:
- We could do without the vast majority of them. But as of now, we’re pushing our most promising students into hedge funds and i-banking, or corporate law making rich companies richer, or cesspool tech companies like Facebook and Twitter. How is THAT the message we should be sending 17 year olds?
Is there some reason that we are not looking at limiting student loans? That is a big part of the problem. If you are getting a degree in Music Therapy, you lifetime earnings are limited. You should not be allowed to take out student loans for $200K. Same with parent loans. I was just talking to my FIL, and he has a friend who is 80, who has $300K in student loans for his 4 kids, plus whatever they have. It is great that little Josphyne gets into X marks the spot University, but if you can't afford to pay for it, with more than a car loan, it is very likely best that she goes to Y, and gets a better deal. It is infuriating to me that they want tax payer dollars to cover college student loans, when they are the highest earners. We need more trades people. I have a friend who works in a factory. He wants to retire, but his employer cannot find apprentices who are interested in doing the kind of work he does, which requires a great deal of skill and training, but not a college degree. He does well, and was here on a visa for many years, until he became a citizen. If college degrees cannot fund themselves, then perhaps we should re-evaluate what we are teaching.
You have a touch of Communist ideology running through your posts.
- We could do without the vast majority of them. But as of now, we’re pushing our most promising students into hedge funds and i-banking, or corporate law making rich companies richer, or cesspool tech companies like Facebook and Twitter. How is THAT the message we should be sending 17 year olds?
Yes, this all day. I went to an Ivy League college. I am a middle school teacher. You’d be shocked how many people (total strangers at that) ask me why I wasted all that money. It’s pretty gross how little we value certain fields and push kids away from them (or at least only push certain kids into)
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Holy shit. I know that I am in the minority because I believe in higher education for education's sake. I think it benefits everyone to have a well-educated populace.
This is slightly a tangent, but I’d push back a little bit in regards to higher education equaling the only way to have a well-educated populace. I do think in many ways elite education plays right in to white supremacy. Most of what I’ve learned in regards to Black history and read the works of Black people and inspirations has definitely NOT come from traditional educational models in this country.
Many of the artists and musicians I know are brilliant and didn’t go to college. Many of my friends in other countries didn’t go to college and they are very educated and intelligent. Just wanted to point that out as I think it’s important for all of us to remember and recognize.
This is my understanding of the loan problem as my younger colleagues regularly graduate with $500k+ in debt.
Back in my day in grad school (2000 - 2004), federal loans were capped and there were private lenders who loaned you the rest if you were pursuing a degree or attended a school that cost more than federal loans available to you. In 2007, under President Bush with bipartisan support, the government increased the interest rate on federal loans to something like 7%, created new loan products and made loans limitless. This in turn gave schools free reign to hike tuition to insanity because why not. The private lenders all left the student loan market and here we are 14 years later.
This is interesting, I didn’t know that about the loans. It makes sense though since my private undergrad only left me with about $10k in loans at around 2% (did have scholarships but it was still less than 5 figures a year from 2000-2003).
Then I went to get my MBA (2018-2020) online from a local University and have $30k in debt at 6.6%. I will admit it helped me get hired during the pandemic since my BA in psychology didn’t check a lot of boxes, but it was mostly my 16 year career experience that landed me the new, high paying job I have now. Which I’ve noticed is becoming more important for a lot of jobs than a certain degree, if any.
I’m also curious how sports programs play into the rising costs. With some coaches making as much as professional athletes, that money has to come from somewhere.
I borrowed 48k total for my undergrad and grad school. I graduated in 2008 and have paid about $350 a month for about 12 years. I still owe over 43k.
My H got a PhD in counseling psychology - a field where we desperately need practitioners (alas, he went into research, but anyway...). He had a partial assistantship his first year, no assistantship his second year, and a partial one his third year. After that, he had full assistantships and at that point the university started giving free tuition to people with assistantships. So he borrowed for 3 years of his PhD. He went to a state school, but had been living in a different state prior to starting the program so his tuition was not in-state. He borrowed a total of 70k and due to high interest rates, he gained almost 40k in interest while he was in the program. 40k!!!! Do we really want our mental health professionals graduating with this level of debt by the time they accept their first position? An average counseling position is going to pay 60-70k at best.
I don't know what the answer is to forgiving debt - as much as I want it to happen, I think we need to do it in conjunction with fixing the problem going forward. I don't want current high school or college kids to end up in the same place we are in a decade when they now have loan debt and there isn't forgiveness available to them. I guess what I'd really like is for loans to be forgiven and tuition to be free going forward, but I don't know how that works with private schools and want there to be equity when it comes to access to elite educations (i.e. I don't want it to be that those with less means are stuck with state schools* because they are free, while rich kids go to private schools because they can). At the very least, I think interest should be forgiven and not charged going forward. It's the interest that makes student loans overwhelming IMO.
*I love state universities - they were/are my entire education, my H's PhD, and have been my employers for the last 6+ years. But I benefitted from none of the connections and opening of doors that people speak of. Nobody where I live has even heard of the schools I went to.