Also….what 18 year old sees a wage or salary number and really sits down and compares options and what each option means for them financially in five or ten or fifty years?
College kids aren’t really the exception here. Kids who don’t go to college are probably not universally sitting down in eleventh grade and doing a cost-benefit analysis of being a plumber versus auto repair and what the union options are and what the state licensing requirements are and what all these things mean for their ability to pay for day care or get a pension.
Who the joins the military with a plan for what they do once they get out?
Do we think a rich kid whose dad pays for college is selecting a major based on the odds of dad gets busted up by the feds for tax evasion and has all assets seized?
What about the ones who change their majors? These anecdotes about the random college kid who is so wise and moral and dutiful that he does everything right and picks a responsible major and a reasonably priced state school and never waivers and gets the same perfect good paying job he planned to have when he started are all kind of bullshit to me, tbh. Or maybe are just about a very specific kind of kid. Other kids - like most people I know - get out of high school and enter the next phase of their life - whether it be college or a new job or relationship or the military or anything and find a whole fucking brand new world of opportunities and things to learn and worlds to discover and people from all sorts of different and new backgrounds, with ideas and experiences to share, who inspire and motivate and challenge. And the script goes out the window - as well it should!
The reality is that it’s impossible for 18 year olds to make a sure lifetime financial bet that they never abandon, regardless of their field or the options they are weighing. This isn’t only a matter of financial literacy or class obstacles - though those obviously play a huge part. It’s also that there are just too many variables at that age and too many variables in the years that immediately follow. It just can’t be done. We shouldn’t even want it to be done. Frankly, I suspect it’s not actually being done in any place but the imaginations of the bootstrap obsessed.
All of this! And what about changes in fields/ career paths/ salary/ industry stability that said 18 year old could never foresee? That’s the major flaw with incenting some majors over others.
Example: in the 1990s, we knew journalism wasn’t going to be the best paying major, but we thought it would lead to a stable career path and a steady salary. Not so much in the 2020s.
Counterexample: Statistics/ data was considered a stable career but not at the top of salary scales in the 1990s. Now with big data, everyone and their mother is studying data science.
Exactly. Also, with education inflation, even a STEM degree isn’t always a path to success. A BS is often just the beginning and I know plenty of disillusioned PhDs. If you majored in engineering in the past 20 years, chances are you’d be set now. But as someone who works in Silicon Valley, I can see the tides turning. For example, @@ kindergartners learn how to code now and meanwhile@@ all these tech companies are realizing that coding an app is not enough. You need content, you need business acumen, you need designers, you need vision. Those are liberal arts skills.
Plus also, a lot of these companies SAY they’re hiring people from a wider pool of schools, but you still see a disproportionate number of Ivy League and Stanford/MIT degrees in Big Tech, Big Law and Big Finance. The promise of all these schools was that if you signed the loan agreement, they’d take care of you. And many people believed it.
weetabix the other consideration is what abstract salaries sound like to teenagers, especially those who come from relative poverty. At 18 years old I saw starting salaries of $40,000 and it was more money than I ever could have conceived of. More than both my parents’ incomes combined supporting a family of 4. I had absolutely no sense of what it would cost to live a middle class lifestyle, never mind keep up with the rising cost of living, pay back loans, deductions for health insurance (never had that growing up) never mind saving for retirement … It’s easy to see a number on a page and assume you’ll be set for life when you have no context for what it would be like to support a different lifestyle than the one all your family members have lived for generations.
Yes, absolutely. There are so many pieces to this puzzle, all of which need to be addressed so that student loans aren't predatory.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Dec 30, 2021 16:02:43 GMT -5
I think we all know someone that made some pretty objectively bad decisions re: student loans and education. I mean, I know someone that somehow took out almost $300k to go to a shitty 4th tier law school.
I still don't think that should preclude them from getting student loan relief. This person in particular will absolutely never get out from under that debt. If this same person's bad decision was a house, or even a spending spree through the Mall of America, they'd have options, like bankruptcy, but as it is, they're basically stuck.
I cannot with the people who are against student loan forgiveness because they think it's going to be a windfall to some random kid who borrowed $200k to major in All the Feels at Super Expensive Unicorn School of Art and Rainbows. For the love of all things holy, stop getting your news about cultural trends from the sheltered dickbots that write clickbait headlines and learn some real facts.
I love this so much.
Thanks.
I once had over $100k in student loan debt but now I sue for profit universities for fraud.
My husband majored in history but two graduate degrees and a couple career changes later, he is now a (nonprofit) university VP.
Navient reaches a $1.85 billion deal to settle claims of predatory behavior.
Navient, once one of the country’s largest student loan servicing companies, reached a $1.85 billion deal with 39 states to settle claims that it had made predatory student loans that saddled millions of borrowers with billions of dollars in debt that they were highly unlikely to repay.
The deal, announced Thursday, requires Navient to cancel $1.7 billion in private student loan debts for nearly 66,000 borrowers and pay $95 million in restitution. The private loans were crucial to Navient’s ability to make a large volume of lucrative federal loans, prosecutors said.
“Navient repeatedly and deliberately put profits ahead of its borrowers — it engaged in deceptive and abusive practices, targeted students who it knew would struggle to pay loans back, and placed an unfair burden on people trying to improve their lives through education,” said Josh Shapiro, the attorney general of Pennsylvania, one of several states that had sued Navient.
Actually we need people with these degrees who later go on to law school and med school and etc. It helps provide well-rounded, caring people.
Please, I would love to see the one Music Therapy major who dropped $200K on undergrad, and went to law school or med school. I am sure there is one. I have a cousin with master in city planning who is now medical doctor, but he didn't come out of his masters with $200K in loans. I doubt many exist, who could continue to add to their tab, after that kind of debt in undergrad. You added to my point. It would be too much debt and greatly limit their choice to further their education.
I could direct you to my friend who was a Dance major at Iowa who is now a partner at a huge Amlaw100 firm, if you'd like...
Please, I would love to see the one Music Therapy major who dropped $200K on undergrad, and went to law school or med school. I am sure there is one. I have a cousin with master in city planning who is now medical doctor, but he didn't come out of his masters with $200K in loans. I doubt many exist, who could continue to add to their tab, after that kind of debt in undergrad. You added to my point. It would be too much debt and greatly limit their choice to further their education.
I could direct you to my friend who was a Dance major at Iowa who is now a partner at a huge Amlaw100 firm, if you'd like...
Several of my classmates from undergrad theater went on to law school and are either partners at their firms or work in-house at the studios. I also had a classmate in my undergrad theater program who was theater/pre-med and went on to med school. There are a lot more theater majors and dance majors out there in "real" jobs than people realize.
Post by sparkythelawyer on Jan 13, 2022 13:51:01 GMT -5
I never would have thought, in 2007, when I started, that law school was a bad move. Graduated in the big recession, which GUTTED the legal field.
But here I am.
I LOVE my job. But the effects of student loans will be an albatross around my family's neck for generations. And while I want my debts forgiven? 10 years of living with those debts has done such a hackjob on my family's finances that recovering from that will be something that never happens. I work three jobs now.
Things I think could help? Forgive current balances on federal loans and make the interest rate at 0% for future loans. Why is the government literally trying to profit off my ass? Allow taxpayers to deduct the ENTIRETY of their student loan interest payments if you keep interest, don't cap it. Again, I already paid you that money, why am I paying it twice?
Allow private student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy. Require private lenders to allow private borrowers to discharge in bankruptcy. Right now, private lenders for student loans get all of the benefit, but none of the skin in the game that the feds have. Eliminate the lenders protections, you will stop a lot of private borrowing. Which will force both public AND private universities to actually give a damn about things like, the cost of attendance and their endowments, because the number of enrolled students will otherwise plummet. Increase support/subsidies of community colleges.
I’m in Canada so I have no skin in this game but I am constantly shocked at the interest rates that are thrown about related to student debt. They are sky high compared to the current rates of return on investments and the central bank lending rates. I obtained loans through OSAP, where loans were given out by the province based on parental and summer job income. In 2003-2007 they would lend up to 15k a year with a maximum payback of $7500 (meaning anything above $7500 was considered a grant and did not need to be repaid). I usually got between $11k-13k per year and graduated with $28,000 in student loans. The rate is tied to the prime lending rate +1%, which is currently a pretty reasonable 2.75%. There is no interest accrued or payments required while registered in studies, whether your undergrad or graduate degrees, in province or even out of the country. You do not need to start paying until 6 months after you are done school.
Also the idea that any student can be certain of their job prospects on graduation is laughable. DH went through a computer programming course and many of his classmates opted to do the coop program, and paid extra to graduate one year later. That year was 2008 and none of them got jobs. DH was lucky he wasn’t laid off after being a fresh hire in 2007. Now they are dying for computer programmers locally and they can get hired in a minute and ask for the moon. That will likely all change in another 10 years.
Others have touched on it in this thread, but the interest rates on federal student loans did not used to be this high and they weren't always fixed. I am not sure what the rates look like now or in the past few years, but in 2006-2007 there was a dramatic increase in the rates and the feds put a fixed floor of 6.8% in place at that time. For reference, I was in my last year of law school at that time, and for three years of law school loans, my rates were 2.77%, 4.7% and 6.8%. That's a 4% increase in under 3 years. So, yes, I signed up for a significant amount of debt to pay for school, but I did it on the assumption that it was gong to be relatively low interest since it was supposed to be variable rate and at least somewhat tied to market interest rates. A fixed rate of 6.8% is absurd, and it stayed that way until 2012. For reference, I had 3 mortgages between 2006 and 2012 and none of them were over 5.2%. A significantly higher interest rate for government-provided student loan debt that can never be discharged is unconscionable.
I agree the interest rates are one of the worst issues with student loans. I consider myself “lucky” that I graduated when interest rates were low, even though my loan balance was $80k and still not paid off 20 years later. DH quit college to join the military for the sole purpose of the GI bill and ended up with a few thousand in loans at 6.8% later which we prioritized paying off. It’s been a financial burden but we’d be in so much worse shape if mine were at 6.8%, which was way higher than our mortgage interest rate when we owned a house.
I was the first in my family to go straight to university after college and DH was the first to go at all. We had financial aid and scholarships, we tried to make the best decisions we could but we came from poor families and had no idea what we were getting into. We we’re both misled about the salaries and job opportunities of the careers we chose (maybe they paid better prior to the 2008 financial recession).
Not sure how much this thread is still getting traction, but I'll throw my question in here anyway - what do you think are the chances that there will be SL forgiveness for non-PSLF loans in the near future?
We need to refinance my H's loans if there isn't forgiveness on the horizon. His rate is around 7% and he owes over 100k. We could halve that rate by refinancing, but will seriously regret it if this administration then turns around and forgives a portion of federal loans in the near future.
If we refinance it will be to a 10 year loan term, so the distant future isn't as relevant to our particular decision.
Please, I would love to see the one Music Therapy major who dropped $200K on undergrad, and went to law school or med school. I am sure there is one.
I still think that the Music Therapy major who dropped $200K on undergrad is an urban legend. I'm sure that someone out there has an uncle who has a neighbor who has a grandkid who spent $200K on an undergraduate Music Therapy degree. However, have you personally ever seen one of these "in the wild?" Do you have any non-blurry timestamped photos to prove that you actually met this person?
It most definitely is an urban legend. For starters, music therapy is a graduate program. Now if someone did spend that on an undergrad degree in music therapy it would be a waste because they can't practice with it. But if you took out loans to get a master's in MT than they can get licensed in the field and have enough of an income to cover loan payments and basic living costs. Obviously imojoebunny knows nothing about music therapy and just picked something that sounded worthless (which further cements her ignorance because music therapy is an actual profession, not an abstract field of study).
Not sure how much this thread is still getting traction, but I'll throw my question in here anyway - what do you think are the chances that there will be SL forgiveness for non-PSLF loans in the near future?
We need to refinance my H's loans if there isn't forgiveness on the horizon. His rate is around 7% and he owes over 100k. We could halve that rate by refinancing, but will seriously regret it if this administration then turns around and forgives a portion of federal loans in the near future.
If we refinance it will be to a 10 year loan term, so the distant future isn't as relevant to our particular decision.
That’s such a tough call. I think it depends on your overall financial situation and if you want to wait it out for a couple of years. Are any of the interest rates different? Could you refinance 1/2 of 3/4 of it now and the rest of it in 2-3 years if it doesn’t seem like forgiveness it imminent? I’m not optimistic about 💯 forgiveness for everyone. If it happens for “everyone” I think it will be a set amount like $10-$20k, over a certain threshold like $100k, or certain types of loans.
Navient reaches a $1.85 billion deal to settle claims of predatory behavior.
Navient, once one of the country’s largest student loan servicing companies, reached a $1.85 billion deal with 39 states to settle claims that it had made predatory student loans that saddled millions of borrowers with billions of dollars in debt that they were highly unlikely to repay.
The deal, announced Thursday, requires Navient to cancel $1.7 billion in private student loan debts for nearly 66,000 borrowers and pay $95 million in restitution. The private loans were crucial to Navient’s ability to make a large volume of lucrative federal loans, prosecutors said.
“Navient repeatedly and deliberately put profits ahead of its borrowers — it engaged in deceptive and abusive practices, targeted students who it knew would struggle to pay loans back, and placed an unfair burden on people trying to improve their lives through education,” said Josh Shapiro, the attorney general of Pennsylvania, one of several states that had sued Navient.
Very happy to see this and that people will be getting student loan debt cancelled. I wish the settlement was more for those of us with federal loans; I think I saw we're getting $260. Navient granted me forbearance without talking about other options, gave me misleading info about how income-driven repayment programs are calculated (said they didn't take cost of living for an area into consideration & that it was the same throughout the country), and then offered & enrolled me in a graduated repayment plan that started with payments that didn't even cover the interest accruing each month (another 6.825% here). There are all kinds of "should" things I could say about myself, my situation, and my choices, but it's hard to make good decisions when you're not getting accurate information. I know it's been worse for others. I really hope this is a step towards more being cancelled. And student loan rates do either need to be MUCH lower or 0%.
Navient reaches a $1.85 billion deal to settle claims of predatory behavior.
Navient, once one of the country’s largest student loan servicing companies, reached a $1.85 billion deal with 39 states to settle claims that it had made predatory student loans that saddled millions of borrowers with billions of dollars in debt that they were highly unlikely to repay.
The deal, announced Thursday, requires Navient to cancel $1.7 billion in private student loan debts for nearly 66,000 borrowers and pay $95 million in restitution. The private loans were crucial to Navient’s ability to make a large volume of lucrative federal loans, prosecutors said.
“Navient repeatedly and deliberately put profits ahead of its borrowers — it engaged in deceptive and abusive practices, targeted students who it knew would struggle to pay loans back, and placed an unfair burden on people trying to improve their lives through education,” said Josh Shapiro, the attorney general of Pennsylvania, one of several states that had sued Navient.
Very happy to see this and that people will be getting student loan debt cancelled. I wish the settlement was more for those of us with federal loans; I think I saw we're getting $260. Navient granted me forbearance without talking about other options, gave me misleading info about how income-driven repayment programs are calculated (said they didn't take cost of living for an area into consideration & that it was the same throughout the country), and then offered & enrolled me in a graduated repayment plan that started with payments that didn't even cover the interest accruing each month (another 6.825% here). There are all kinds of "should" things I could say about myself, my situation, and my choices, but it's hard to make good decisions when you're not getting accurate information. I know it's been worse for others. I really hope this is a step towards more being cancelled. And student loan rates do either need to be MUCH lower or 0%.
How did you find out that you’ll be awarded in this suit? I have Navient loans and fall in one of those states for the time we’ve been paying. They’ve been horribly predatory while trying to figure out our payments.
Very happy to see this and that people will be getting student loan debt cancelled. I wish the settlement was more for those of us with federal loans; I think I saw we're getting $260. Navient granted me forbearance without talking about other options, gave me misleading info about how income-driven repayment programs are calculated (said they didn't take cost of living for an area into consideration & that it was the same throughout the country), and then offered & enrolled me in a graduated repayment plan that started with payments that didn't even cover the interest accruing each month (another 6.825% here). There are all kinds of "should" things I could say about myself, my situation, and my choices, but it's hard to make good decisions when you're not getting accurate information. I know it's been worse for others. I really hope this is a step towards more being cancelled. And student loan rates do either need to be MUCH lower or 0%.
How did you find out that you’ll be awarded in this suit? I have Navient loans and fall in one of those states for the time we’ve been paying. They’ve been horribly predatory while trying to figure out our payments.
Also, they do take in COL?
I don't know for sure that I will be. I should've said that, sorry. But here's the info about the settlement and how much we might be getting, if we qualify:
How did you find out that you’ll be awarded in this suit? I have Navient loans and fall in one of those states for the time we’ve been paying. They’ve been horribly predatory while trying to figure out our payments.
Also, they do take in COL?
I don't know for sure that I will be. I should've said that, sorry. But here's the info about the settlement and how much we might be getting, if we qualify:
I don't know for sure that I will be. I should've said that, sorry. But here's the info about the settlement and how much we might be getting, if we qualify:
I got the email, so I’m guessing I will have some kind of compensation. I’d love to be one of those who has the debt forgiven (fat chance though)!
You're more likely to get it than I am, then. I haven't gotten any emails. I did use up all of my forbearance pretty early on, which is why I'm hoping I'll qualify. I think the only ones getting the debt forgiven are people with private loans. I really hope that the government does forgive loan balances. The pause on interest has been huge, but we need more.
Jalapeñomel my mom just sent me this, hopefully it'll give more clarity. I think I started my 2 years of forbearance before 2009, so I'm guessing I won't qualify.
Jalapeñomel my mom just sent me this, hopefully it'll give more clarity. I think I started my 2 years of forbearance before 2009, so I'm guessing I won't qualify.
Jalapeñomel my mom just sent me this, hopefully it'll give more clarity. I think I started my 2 years of forbearance before 2009, so I'm guessing I won't qualify.
The states not participating also seem like the ones most likely to tell “bootstraps.” I’m not going to qualify but I’m glad others will get something.
Not sure how much this thread is still getting traction, but I'll throw my question in here anyway - what do you think are the chances that there will be SL forgiveness for non-PSLF loans in the near future?
We need to refinance my H's loans if there isn't forgiveness on the horizon. His rate is around 7% and he owes over 100k. We could halve that rate by refinancing, but will seriously regret it if this administration then turns around and forgives a portion of federal loans in the near future.
If we refinance it will be to a 10 year loan term, so the distant future isn't as relevant to our particular decision.
I’ve been in a similar situation since I graduated in May 2020. I’ve just decided to wait it out. I know interest rates will likely increase if and when the pause ends, but most likely will still need less than the 6.6% I’m at with the Fed loans. And who knows, maybe some will be forgiven or interest will be removed.
Jalapeñomel my mom just sent me this, hopefully it'll give more clarity. I think I started my 2 years of forbearance before 2009, so I'm guessing I won't qualify.
Huh. I might qualify. From PA, attended school from 05-09, had a period of forbearance after 2009 (2010? 2011? I don't remember exactly.) I haven't had any benefit from the interest free/zero payment during Covid. Still slowly paying off my 6.8% interest private loans. I haven't gotten an emails about it and I did not go to a for-profit school. We'll see.
Jalapeñomel my mom just sent me this, hopefully it'll give more clarity. I think I started my 2 years of forbearance before 2009, so I'm guessing I won't qualify.
Huh. I might qualify. From PA, attended school from 05-09, had a period of forbearance after 2009 (2010? 2011? I don't remember exactly.) I haven't had any benefit from the interest free/zero payment during Covid. Still slowly paying off my 6.8% interest private loans. I haven't gotten an emails about it and I did not go to a for-profit school. We'll see.
Has anyone had to submit a FOIA request for your payment history?
I have been denied twice now - once under the regular PSLF and now again under the temp rules - because they say I haven’t made 120 qualifying payments. Except they only show my payment history beginning in the summer of 2013. I started paying in November of 2010.
It’s impossible to get an answer from them or talk to someone (if anyone has tips, please share!) but if I have to prove my payment history, I think I need to FOIA it.
I closed the bank account I started paying from so I can’t access the statements.
Has anyone had to submit a FOIA request for your payment history?
I have been denied twice now - once under the regular PSLF and now again under the temp rules - because they say I haven’t made 120 qualifying payments. Except they only show my payment history beginning in the summer of 2013. I started paying in November of 2010.
It’s impossible to get an answer from them or talk to someone (if anyone has tips, please share!) but if I have to prove my payment history, I think I need to FOIA it.
I closed the bank account I started paying from so I can’t access the statements.
It's possible they haven't actually applied the waiver to your account, despite receiving a letter that says they have. What I've been seeing on the FB group is that people get denied repeatedly, which is Fedloan's processing, and then DOE reviews the record and they direct the forgiveness.
FOIA requests are taking 6+ months, my guess is that you'll be forgiven before you receive anything back from them.
Has anyone had to submit a FOIA request for your payment history?
I have been denied twice now - once under the regular PSLF and now again under the temp rules - because they say I haven’t made 120 qualifying payments. Except they only show my payment history beginning in the summer of 2013. I started paying in November of 2010.
It’s impossible to get an answer from them or talk to someone (if anyone has tips, please share!) but if I have to prove my payment history, I think I need to FOIA it.
I closed the bank account I started paying from so I can’t access the statements.
It's possible they haven't actually applied the waiver to your account, despite receiving a letter that says they have. What I've been seeing on the FB group is that people get denied repeatedly, which is Fedloan's processing, and then DOE reviews the record and they direct the forgiveness.
FOIA requests are taking 6+ months, my guess is that you'll be forgiven before you receive anything back from them.
Right, but the issue is that they are starting my payment count in summer 2013, and not November 2010 when I started. Until they do that, they won't show me as having the 120 qualifying payments, so I need to figure out how to prove that yes, I did start paying in 2010.
It's possible they haven't actually applied the waiver to your account, despite receiving a letter that says they have. What I've been seeing on the FB group is that people get denied repeatedly, which is Fedloan's processing, and then DOE reviews the record and they direct the forgiveness.
FOIA requests are taking 6+ months, my guess is that you'll be forgiven before you receive anything back from them.
Right, but the issue is that they are starting my payment count in summer 2013, and not November 2010 when I started. Until they do that, they won't show me as having the 120 qualifying payments, so I need to figure out how to prove that yes, I did start paying in 2010.
Those pre-2013 counts are what the Dept of Education will add once they apply the waiver. It’s not FedLoan applying it, it’s Dept of Ed.
As long as you show “in repayment” for 2010-2013 in your loan history status on studentaid.gov you’re good to go and you just need to wait for the Dept of Ed to send the information to FedLoan (apply the waiver to your account).
eta: the first person I saw who posted about this letter on the fb group, with the “waiver applied” when it hadn’t, just updated today that his loans were forgiven. It was about 2 weeks after he got the letter.
Post by bookqueen15 on Jan 20, 2022 20:46:11 GMT -5
Still kind of in shock, my loans have been forgiven! I received a letter on January 3rd that I didn't qualify due to not having 120 payments (even though I did). I was just looking into how I could file a complaint for that and get it corrected, logged in and they are now completely forgiven!
They emailed me a second letter last week on January 13th apparently that I missed, that said I qualified for the TPSLF and showing that my loans were completely forgiven! And now the balance is zero.
Still kind of in shock, my loans have been forgiven! I received a letter on January 3rd that I didn't qualify due to not having 120 payments (even though I did). I was just looking into how I could file a complaint for that and get it corrected, logged in and they are now completely forgiven!
They emailed me a second letter last week on January 13th apparently that I missed, that said I qualified for the TPSLF and showing that my loans were completely forgiven! And now the balance is zero.
Wow, that is fantastic! I’m so happy to see some good news around the boards.
Still kind of in shock, my loans have been forgiven! I received a letter on January 3rd that I didn't qualify due to not having 120 payments (even though I did). I was just looking into how I could file a complaint for that and get it corrected, logged in and they are now completely forgiven!
They emailed me a second letter last week on January 13th apparently that I missed, that said I qualified for the TPSLF and showing that my loans were completely forgiven! And now the balance is zero.
I’ve heard tons of people are getting this form letter and it doesn’t mean they are denied. In a lot of cases I think its based on the original PSLF which denied 99% of applicants, then they apply the waiver, then you are forgiven!!! Part of the waiver allows you to backdate payments for the longest loan to all loans. Lots of people are being forgiven within a couple weeks of the letter. Congratulations!!!