WWMLD - contractor issue Update in replies

[lucybrown]

What would ML do?

We live in an old house and are having our windows replaced. Hired a lead-certified contractor and extensively discussed EPA guidelines and protocol. Certified contractors cost more. It was worth our peace of mind because we have young kids, one with developmental delays. Company is well-vetted, has a good reputation and was a solid referral.

Long story short, the installers are not following the lead-safe protocols that we were told would happen, nor within EPA guidelines. Practically zero dust containment and now we’re left with both clean up and potential risk. I’ve escalated to the project manager/supervisor. It became a my word vs the installer’s, though I have pictures to back myself up. My kitchen sink also was broken because they stood or kneeled in it.

I’ve asked for replacement or compensation for the broken sink. My sister thinks I should also ask for a discount or compensation on the basis that I did not receive the services I paid for. It’s true. If I’d have known it would be this sloppy, I’d have hired someone cheaper and planned to do more prep/clean up myself. I also would have kept my kids out of the house.

What does ML think? H is so non-confrontational. He agrees with my sister, but would silently stew vs. ask for anything. As part of our contract, we were going to do social media posts/reviews for a discount. I’ve already told them I can’t provide a positive review at this time.

[InBetweenDays]

To clarify - the painted areas they disturbed included lead based paint? If so I'd absolutely make them come back and do a thorough clean up of the area. And potentially report them to your local EPA regional office.

[lucybrown]

Mar 10, 2022 17:26:41 GMT -5 InBetweenDays said:

To clarify - the painted areas they disturbed included lead based paint? If so I'd absolutely make them come back and do a thorough clean up of the area. And potentially report them to your local EPA regional office.

The old windows taken out and surrounding areas had lead paint. Paint was disturbed in fitting new windows. They cleaned. I disagree that it was adequate. There was still dust on items that were not covered. We were not told to cover anything and they only covered some things. They put down tarps directly under the windows, but since they were walking all over the house, it was tracked everywhere, including uncovered floors. I re-cleaned last night because I needed to get my kids home and into bed. They were gone at that point and waiting until today wasn’t an option.

I’m debating reporting them to EPA. Ultimately this falls on the company to train their employees better.

[InBetweenDays]

I'm sorry lucybrown. I would be pissed if they didn't follow the EPA guidelines. The EPA Lead Renovation, Repair, and Painting Rule pretty clearly lays out the requirements for dealing with lead paint! I wouldn't hesitate to ask for money off for the work you'll need to do to clean up after them. In addition to asking for compensation for the sink.

[SusanBAnthony]

I would tell the contractor that unless you have adequate compensation by XYZ date (both the sink and the lead mess- estimate how much it would have cost for you to hire out the cleaning maybe), you will be reporting to the EPA. And then do it.

[lucybrown]

Thanks. I sent an email and restated our concerns and asked for compensation or a reasonable solution. Though, I don’t really want a reasonable solution because trust is gone. The project manager came out this morning to address a different issue. While he heard my concerns, no solutions were offered beyond asking the lead installer to do better for the remainder of the job. As the day goes on, I get more angry. The damage is done. I want them out of my house ASAP. Unfortunately there is more work to do yet.

Am I fair to not give them a chance to rectify this? I don’t want them in my house cleaning if they couldn’t be bothered to follow precautions in the first place.

I’m so anxious about all of this. We felt really good about this company and nope. He told the supervisor he covered our things. He covered the dining table, a dresser, and kitchen table. No beds or furniture, though thankfully I put old sheets over those.

[al dente]

I have no advice but I'm sorry this is happening. I've had that happen where I felt I did tons of research on a company and they were great, and then they ended up being terrible and difficult to work with. It is so frustrating. I hope it gets resolved I wouldn't want to be messing around with leas either!

[tacokick]

It’s tricky because they are mid-job but I’m not sure how they can rectify the situation beyond giving money for a new sink/installation and hiring a specialized cleaning service.

I had a similar situation with contractors years ago and I had them finish the job on a tight deadline and pay for the damage (they broke a toilet!!) and clean up by a company of my choice billed directly to them.


I wouldn’t threaten them with the EPA or mention it, just report them when they are out of the house and the issue is resolved. You don’t want other people in this same situation. Either they aren’t training their contractors or they are and don’t bother to make sure they understand and/or follow the directions. Neither is good and what exactly went wrong in their business and how is not your problem. Lead is not something to play with and I am sure this isn’t the first time they’ve tried this.

It sounds like you did your part to go over the scope of the job and were clear with your expectations. It should be reflected in your contract what type of work it was and how it was supposed to be done. They aren’t doing their end at all. You can submit that with your complaint with your pictures.


I’m sorry this happened. Getting work done is so stressful and it’s easy to feel like they have you over a barrel but IMO they are often banking on that and that no one will complain or push back. It sounds like they are getting good reviews because they are paying for them via discount not because of their actual work

[fn2187]

Slightly off topic but I had something similar happen and I was in complete panic mode about DD inhaling all the lead dust. I addressed it with her pedi at her physical and she simply marked to test for lead on her routine blood test and I was soooo relieved to get the results. While the results aren’t zero (to be expected), it was well below the minimum level of concern. I actually had her check twice during routine blood draws just because we have an old house.

Edit: my insurance paid for the tests no questions asked. But if you get charged, I’d request the contractors pay.

[lucybrown]

Thank you for all the replies. They're finishing up the picture window today and seem to have taken a few more precautions. Luckily, the work looks pretty great. It makes the problems easier to manage.

They're coming back in a few weeks to install a door. I think I'll report it to the EPA after they finish all the work. The work is good, they're just not following the guidelines advertised. Ultimately, I think this falls on the company and training practices, from sales to installation. Communication could be better as other things were not communicated to the installation team.

Still no response to the request for compensation. I kind of wish I'd have asked for a discount instead. During the sales process, they had all sorts of discounts, so I assume it's their model. They were the highest quote and I successfully negotiated them down to the price of the other lead-certified contractor. It's more about principle than money, but we paid for a service we didn't receive. The uncertified installation quote was thousands cheaper than this one.

[lucybrown]

Positive update, because I love these and it's a slow day:

This turned out really well. After a week of no reply from the project manager, I sent another email with detailed documentation of all the issues. It quickly was escalated higher and they're taking steps to correct everything ASAP. The director himself will be on site when the future work is completed to ensure everything is done properly. There will be a lot of repairs and we're still waiting on a door installation.

The mistakes will easily cost this company thousands of dollars. Refunds to us. Lead testing. HVAC/rug/house cleaning. All the materials that were improperly installed. Oy. There have been so many good reviews about this company that perhaps this was just a fluke. I'm pretty sure the installers were fired as a result. They 100% own the responsibility for their installers. While we're really annoyed with the extra stress of it, we're thankful they're as appalled as we were.

ETA: I said the work looked great.  LOL, no.  I guess it doesn't.  The director and project manager walked around the exterior and determined that the majority of it is sloppy and needs to be redone.  They have a lifetime warranty on the install, but hopefully we're not calling them down the road. 

[lucybrown]

Update: this went so fucking south. They made some of the repairs and have mostly ghosted us. The door installation is half finished. I’m livid. I’m giving them another 24 hours to respond with any sort of timeline. If they don’t, I’m prepared to take bigger actions.

What are my options here? File a complaint with the BBB? I know little about the laws in my area.

[lucybrown]

And the shitty installer from the first job was not fired. They tried bringing him back to redo the work after verbally agreeing to having someone else do it.

[clairebear]

Jun 28, 2022 19:53:13 GMT -5 lucybrown said:

Update: this went so fucking south. They made some of the repairs and have mostly ghosted us. The door installation is half finished. I’m livid. I’m giving them another 24 hours to respond with any sort of timeline. If they don’t, I’m prepared to take bigger actions.

What are my options here? File a complaint with the BBB? I know little about the laws in my area (WI).

BBB is completely toothless. They don't have any power. The only leverage is if a business cares about their BBB rating, but even the rating can be bought through BBB with a paid subscription with them. What's the total cost of the project and what is the total estimated amount lost (value of sink, unfinished work)? If it's significant I would consult an attorney. If its under several thousand, I would take them to small claims count. I would also blast them on any social media they have plus any online reviews you can leave. Hopefully that would get their attention. I'm so sorry, this must be so frustrating. 

[lucybrown]

Jun 28, 2022 20:08:14 GMT -5 clairebear said:

Jun 28, 2022 19:53:13 GMT -5 lucybrown said:

Update: this went so fucking south. They made some of the repairs and have mostly ghosted us. The door installation is half finished. I’m livid. I’m giving them another 24 hours to respond with any sort of timeline. If they don’t, I’m prepared to take bigger actions.

What are my options here? File a complaint with the BBB? I know little about the laws in my area (WI).

BBB is completely toothless. They don't have any power. The only leverage is if a business cares about their BBB rating, but even the rating can be bought through BBB with a paid subscription with them. What's the total cost of the project and what is the total estimated amount lost (value of sink, unfinished work)? If it's significant I would consult an attorney. If its under several thousand, I would take them to small claims count. I would also blast them on any social media they have plus any online reviews you can leave. Hopefully that would get their attention. I'm so sorry, this must be so frustrating. 

Total bill was around $25K. I don’t think small claims is an option at that amount. I’m collecting all our documents and considering consulting an attorney.

We gave them the opportunity to rectify the mistakes. They offered some money and agreed to fix everything. But we can’t even get communication on when to expect installers to be here. They’re not holding up their end of the agreement. We’ve had a bunch of employees quit or not show up too. Including the project managers and VP guys that promised to take care of everything.

I intend to blast them on social media and every online review I can, but was waiting for the work to be done first. A discount for social media reviews is in the contract. I used that as leverage to negotiate the previous fixes. I plan to report them to the EPA for not following lead-safe practices.

They consistently get 4.5/5 reviews everywhere. There are a handful of situations like ours. The company’s response was super defensive and outright hostile in a few places. Errors have been made literally every step of the way with this. The door was installed last week and it’s the wrong color. I have emails from our sales person agreeing to change the color before ordering.

Sigh. Thanks for letting me vent. This has been so stressful and is delaying other work we’re already under contract for.

[tripleshot]

Are they licensed? Can you put a lien on them somehow? Contact your state’s AG?

[VillainV]

This is probably a last-resort type of option, but you can also contact your local news station with your story.

[lucybrown]

Jun 28, 2022 20:32:29 GMT -5 tripleshot said:

Are they licensed? Can you put a lien on them somehow? Contact your state’s AG?

They are licensed. I’m not sure how I’d put the lien on them. They did submit our invoice and I refused to pay it until the work is done.

I’ve largely emailed because I want everything documented. I’ll start calling everyone tomorrow to see if it gets me anywhere. H called the installer that was here last week, but didn’t get a response.

[lucybrown]

Jun 28, 2022 20:45:04 GMT -5 VillainV said:

This is probably a last-resort type of option, but you can also contact your local news station with your story.

. I’m not quite at that point. It’s a good idea though. If they continue to ignore messages, we may have to go that route. Same with social media blasts. We’re being too nice at this point, frankly.

[winecat]

How much of the $25k have you paid?

I'd contact the department that oversees the certification of lead contractors and ask them what to do if a contractor isn't following the safety guidelines. I'd also contact the AG's or consumer protection office and see how you can file a complaint.

[VillainV]

Jun 28, 2022 20:48:40 GMT -5 lucybrown said:

Jun 28, 2022 20:45:04 GMT -5 VillainV said:

This is probably a last-resort type of option, but you can also contact your local news station with your story.

. I’m not quite at that point. It’s a good idea though. If they continue to ignore messages, we may have to go that route. Same with social media blasts. We’re being too nice at this point, frankly.

I completely get it. The nuclear option will probably NOT result in getting your stuff fixed (though it might help you recoup some $$), so I’d only do it if you’re already pretty sure they won’t complete the work.

I’d suspect that at this point, the company either can’t afford to fix your project, doesn’t have the personnel, or both.

[mala]

Honestly, with that much $$$ worth of work on the line I'd talk to a lawyer about next steps. You don't necessary NEED a lawyer, but someone to help you with suing the company is going to help a lot and might be worth the money to you. Next step, IMO, is to get another contractor out and get some quotes from other companies to fix it. It might come down to having to pay to have it fixed then sue the first company to pay for the repairs. It's guaranteed to be over small claims, so you'll need a lawyer for that regardless. You can also talk to your insurance company, they may be willing to work with you about getting it repaired.

[lucybrown]

Jun 28, 2022 20:54:24 GMT -5 VillainV said:

Jun 28, 2022 20:48:40 GMT -5 lucybrown said:

. I’m not quite at that point. It’s a good idea though. If they continue to ignore messages, we may have to go that route. Same with social media blasts. We’re being too nice at this point, frankly.

I completely get it. The nuclear option will probably NOT result in getting your stuff fixed (though it might help you recoup some $$), so I’d only do it if you’re already pretty sure they won’t complete the work.

I’d suspect that at this point, the company either can’t afford to fix your project, doesn’t have the personnel, or both.

I’m near certain staffing is a major issue. We had an installer out last week and the week before. I think he’s a manager fitting it in with his other jobs. He told H guys didn’t show up 1-2 days. Still, we’re talking about 2-3 days work that has been stretched out over the past 5 weeks with no clue when they’re coming back to finish the remaining 1-2 days work. Communication would make things much better.

Regarding the door issue, I’m guessing they’re pissed and hoping we don’t keep pushing it. There is no way they’re making money on us at this point, after fixing all the errors their employees have made.

It’s a major PITA, but the easiest, cheapest solution for us is to tough it out with them. We think they’ll finish the job, but fuck if they’re making it really hard to work with them.

[lucybrown]

Jun 28, 2022 20:52:56 GMT -5 winecat said:

How much of the $25k have you paid?

I'd contact the department that oversees the certification of lead contractors and ask them what to do if a contractor isn't following the safety guidelines. I'd also contact the AG's or consumer protection office and see how you can file a complaint.

We’ve paid zero. We signed a contract to finance it through their credit care for zero interest. That approval was sufficient in lieu of a down payment. They charged it to the card in error. They reversed the charges when I complained and reiterated we would not be paying until work was 100% done, as stated in the contract. This is a mid-sized, highly successful, multimillion dollar company. Our $25K isn’t preventing them from finishing the job.

I have the info to file a complaint with the EPA about the lead-safe practices. I’ll look into the consumer protection/AG’s office too. Thanks!

[polarbearfans]

I am so sorry you are going through this. I won’t hire any company that offers any kind of discount for social media reviews or even had too many reviews. That is a sign that their reviews are bought. Also, lot of reviews when other companies don’t have have as many means the company is soliciting them. I agree with reporting them to the EPA as that is dangerous what they are doing.

I hope you get some kind of resolution here. At this point I wouldn’t be comfortable with them doing any more work and would want compensated to have another company do the job right and properly clean up the damage they did.

[lucybrown]

Another update: After no response from the company, I posted negative reviews on Google, Facebook and Angi. That got some action where they came out to recaulk some work. It was a slog and we told them not to bother with the other work they promised. The work is so sloppy and we just had our house painted. We were willing to lose some money to not risk these jerks ruining the new paint.

They offered a credit in lieu of reordering the door in the correct color. We accepted. They then sent a work order change requiring our signature. It accused us of defamation online and said they would only give us the credit if we removed all negative reviews and did not post any in the future. Obviously I didn't sign. The PM said he'd talk to the owner and take care of it for us.

Obviously we're livid. That was pretty ballsy. And not defamation because I wrote only facts. Writing online reviews for a small discount was in our contract. We held our end of the contract.

I need to get a legal consult because I'm fairly sure we have a decent case. Unfortunately life is bananas in other areas and I haven't had the ambition yet this week.

[lucybrown]

If you have ever taken legal action against a contractor, I'd love anecdotes, advice etc. I have a lot of this documented. At this point, we just want this to go away and were willing to take their credit and live with the wrong door to not deal with them anymore. They have strung us along for most of this year.

[bex1973]

I'm not a lawyer but I have many times heard Judge Judy say folks are allowed to post negative reviews, it's your right as a consumer. I think that sounds flippant mentioning JJ but I really mean it! I would not sign it either - I would not take a credit either.

[lucybrown]

bex1973, I did ask an attorney friend. He's not in this area, but he says facts are not defamation. The reviews I posted were written and edited very carefully to include only facts.

I still intend to report them to the EPA for lead-safe renovation violations. I just want to get them out of my house first. If we do have a legal case, I think it would be largely on the breach of contract for not completing a lead-safe install.

[waverly]

I don't have experience with this. Our contractor fell through before they started work, and they returned our deposit. Ultimately it was for the best because it was clear that they no longer wanted to do the job and they were shady.

I went to pick up the permits to have someone else do the work, and I was not allowed to pick up the permits because the contractor was different. I was told by the permit office that there is someone whose contractor bailed and left their house completely demolished and not rebuilt. There is some framing and that is it. Not livable at all. They are suing, but I don't know the process. Our kids were friends with their kids because we are neighbors, and it's been 2 years like this for these poor people. I drive by the site at least once a month, and nothing is happening there, and they have been living with family for 2 years.  

What is the payment plan? Are they still going to charge you for the work? If you all settled on no payment then I would just let it be. You say the card is not charged. If they are still planning to charge the card, then you may want to sue for a different amount. Also, is it possible to file a claim with their bond insurance?