@@So overwhelmed with current events, moving out of country…

[Gato]

First, your anxiety is justified, considering the craziness of the last ten years. I think if you’re feeling too fearful to go about your everyday activities, though, you should talk to a therapist.

But second, although this might feel counterintuitive, the U.S. is actually safer, with fewer violent crimes on average, than it was when we were growing up. There are some not-great reasons for this, like our super high incarceration rate. But beyond the sensational headlines, which do point out some terrible problems we have, the murder rate has dropped to about half what it was in 1980.

Having said that, I have dozens of friends and family who have lived abroad, mostly through job situations, so if you want to do it, it can be done. Overall, it seems like they’ve had good experiences, although all but two I can think of moved back eventually.

[rupertpenny]

May 31, 2022 21:02:30 GMT -5 turkturkleton said:

The first step is defintiely getting help (therapy, medication) for the anxiety. Even if you do move, that won't resolve itself. Recognizing that is a great start.

If you truly want to live abroad, you're best bet is for your H to ask his company if they have any opportunities for jobs in other countries. It is not an easy thing to do on your own, and there are a ton of restrictions for getting visas in most countries. Deciding you want to live somewhere is not a good reason for that country to let you do so. In many countries, it's not enough to have a profesional skill, but you need to prove that no one already in that country can provide that same skill. It's incredibly difficult to do on an individual level.

Not directed at the OP, but just a general PSA: many people are moving away from calling immigrants "expats" because of the classist/racist usage. Wealthy, white, English-speaking people are expats and considered a positive value-add; everyone else is an immigrant who came to steal jobs. We need to normalize that *all* these people are immigrants.

I do recognize that the term “expat” is loaded, but I also think it can be useful. I used it upthread because I think their best bet would be to move as expats i.e. people who relocate for a specific job in a specific place without real plans for a permanent move. They could try to immigrate, but that is probably a much higher bar to clear.

[turkturkleton]

May 31, 2022 21:20:49 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

May 31, 2022 21:02:30 GMT -5 turkturkleton said:

The first step is defintiely getting help (therapy, medication) for the anxiety. Even if you do move, that won't resolve itself. Recognizing that is a great start.

If you truly want to live abroad, you're best bet is for your H to ask his company if they have any opportunities for jobs in other countries. It is not an easy thing to do on your own, and there are a ton of restrictions for getting visas in most countries. Deciding you want to live somewhere is not a good reason for that country to let you do so. In many countries, it's not enough to have a profesional skill, but you need to prove that no one already in that country can provide that same skill. It's incredibly difficult to do on an individual level.

Not directed at the OP, but just a general PSA: many people are moving away from calling immigrants "expats" because of the classist/racist usage. Wealthy, white, English-speaking people are expats and considered a positive value-add; everyone else is an immigrant who came to steal jobs. We need to normalize that *all* these people are immigrants.

I do recognize that the term “expat” is loaded, but I also think it can be useful. I used it upthread because I think their best bet would be to move as expats i.e. people who relocate for a specific job in a specific place without real plans for a permanent move. They could try to immigrate, but that is probably a much higher bar to clear.

I get that, and I understand that there is a true definitional difference. But I've seen it used so inconsitantly in the real-world that its usage has moved away from the actual meaning. I'm not the vocabulary police, and I'm not going to rail against anyone who still chooses to use those terms. It's simply my experience that the term is racially loaded. There are many other examples of words that are not inherently racist but have been used so commonly along racial lines that it's hard to separate the terms from the racism. This falls into that category, especially in both majority-white countries in which I've lived.

If anyone wants an alternative to immigrant that doesn't suggest a longevity to an inter-country move, describing someone's visa terms or simply calling them visa holders are seen as neutral terms.

[thejen626]

I have similar thoughts. What’s been helpful for me, personally, was to move out of my purple/red county. I moved to a liberal city in a blue state and it was like living in a whole new world. Then I recently moved to Seattle and I feel very safe, most people I interact with are like minded. It’s been very refreshing for me. If you live in Texas, step one would be to move out of there.

[aurora]

I have been fortunate to temporarily live/work in other countries twice for about 4 months each time (a decade apart). Because of my field and position I could probably find a place that would sponsor me if I wanted to move more permanently (my career tends to be quite international). Sure, sometimes H and I talk about it, but I think the drawbacks outweigh the benefits for us, long term.

I know 4 months is not long enough to make close friends, but honestly I found my anxiety was worse both times, maybe because I was away from my friends/family/comforts of home. The first time (a decade ago) I bounced back quickly, but more recently my anxiety got bad enough that I realized it was negatively impacting my life and I started treatment when I returned home. I'm much better now, but based on this experience I agree with everyone else to seek treatment for anxiety first, then once you're feeling better think further about moving (or not).

[sent]

As others have said, meeting with a psych professional may certainly help. I had a moment last week where even I thought "hmmm how about Canada, maybe retire there." We could move if I take a bunch of tests and really really wanted to but we won't. I think exploring another state is a good idea. I don't know what the laws exactly are in my blue state, but I know it isn't Texas. I wouldn't even know where to buy a gun if I wanted to. (I just did a search on google and had to get to the 4th page before I found any kind of gun store here.) I spent a few years in a southern red state as an adult and remember feeling shocked as I wandered around Walmart one day and there was entire section of guns on display. For sale. Like right there out in the open next to the paint department. I know so many colleagues who rushed to Texas after graduation to get away from the taxes up here and for promises of lower competition and big bucks. I can't say I have ever envied them, their money or their McMansions. Leaving family is hard but at least it will be much easier for everyone to visit by moving a few states away versus somewhere needing a passport.

[basilosaurus]

May 31, 2022 20:14:23 GMT -5 isabel said:

DH noted, unprompted, the other day that we qualify for enough points to move to New Zealand. We've visited twice and really love it there, but even with all the shit in the US, I'm not sure I could actually follow through with it. I do plan to chat about it with a US-based Kiwi coworker next week. Ultimately, I think moving away from our families is a nonstarter for us.

This is my personal dream. We probably would have qualified, too. Him as a retired military guy who went into teaching and me as a nurse. Life took us opposite directions, though.

I can speak a bit about "just teach English" from personal experience. I was 3 days away from my TEFL cert before an unfortunate hospitalization. So, while I don't have the paper, I did all the work.

I was hired to teach high school science. The week before, they said, nope, change of plans, teach K who don't speak english (this was int'l school where English was required), and there will be 50 of them, Chinese, no English, you'll meet classroom help day 1. Create a curriculum. Happy days!

In my training I went to various schools. Usually class size was 40+ and it was miserable. You have to manage not just kids not liking a sub but also cultural issues that made it nearly impossible (stereotype boys are rowdy and girls need hand holding actually personified). I hated it. I loved teaching English in another country before being technically qualified, so it's not an issue of training. Each country, each school is going to have unique challenges. 

It's really not easy despite it being your native language. I don't suggest it as a route. Of the 30 or so in my TEFL class, only 4? still teach.

Also, can I get the rec to get my scuba instructor license? I was on track to do that right before covid I literally was scheduled for a dive Mar 19 and the country shut down Mar 18. 

[dulcemariamar]

I have lived overseas most of my life. There are definite downsides. Depending on where you live then you might only see your family 1-2 times a year. But I think that is also true if you live across the country from your relatives. My parents only see my brother at most twice a year. I think most people who move overseas go through a honeymoon period but then the day to day stuff can get hard to do in another language and the comforts from home probably won’t be in your new place.

But I would 100% choose to live abroad. There are just so many benefits such a paid holidays/sick time/health care/security/public transportation/ free or reduced higher education that the pros outweigh the cons but it definitely depends on the country.

I live in Luxembourg and 50% of the country are foreigners so it is easy for English speakers. There are a lot of American companies but the downside is that most people only come for 2-4 years so you are constantly making new friends and it can be difficult for the trailing spouse to get a work visa. But there is a child allowance, free healthcare for children and free medication for chronic illness for everyone. Housing is expensive as fuck so you really need to be careful when moving abroad to find out all the hidden costs. But there is an element of anxiety behind your decision so I would try to seek some help before uprooting your life.

[dulcemariamar]

May 31, 2022 20:14:23 GMT -5 isabel said:

DH noted, unprompted, the other day that we qualify for enough points to move to New Zealand. We've visited twice and really love it there, but even with all the shit in the US, I'm not sure I could actually follow through with it. I do plan to chat about it with a US-based Kiwi coworker next week. Ultimately, I think moving away from our families is a nonstarter for us.

I have friends move to NZ and they absolutely love it there. The only issue is that they were closed off from the world for two years because of the pandemic but they got back home 1-2 times a year

[ellipses84]

The state of the US has been extremely anxiety inducing for the past several years. I’m an anxious person anyway but @ becoming a parent gave me 10,000 more reasons to worry. In hindsight, I should have talked to my Ob about Post Partum Anxiety (PPA) after my first child.

I’ve also moved around a lot, living in all the west coast states, TX, Canada and a European country. I feel a lot safer in CA than TX, like at least my representatives are looking out for my best interest and there is a better social safety net aside from just relying on your kind neighbors or religious charities in a crisis. Work visa issues are the biggest challenge to living abroad if you don’t have dual citizenship. I could move back to Canada but I probably never will. Some countries allow you to obtain it with ancestry, like a grandparent from another country, so that may be something to look into.

Friends I know who’ve moved abroad long term typically have a highly needed job or could transfer offices within their international company. For a couple, it’s probably easier if you could live on one income. There are pros and cons to living abroad. Some of the realities of it suck, like navigating unfamiliar bureaucracy in a different language, challenges finding a friend group, @having no help for kids, missing holidays, not being able to get there in time or be there for a sick relative or a funeral, getting stuck somewhere due to pandemic restrictions, etc. I’ve even found out of state moves difficult for many of those reasons. There are also pros, but you have to go into it with realistic expectations.

[mrsukyankee]

I moved to London due to a job. Due to the expenses of being over here (and wanting to actually do more than work and eat), I only went home every 2 years. Due to Covid, my job and moving house, I've not seen my mom in 3 years (going this summer). Is life better here? In some ways, yes, and in others, no. I'm married to a Brit and have given up my citizenship in the US, so I'm not going back (did it due to tax reasons and because my husband never wanted to live in the US, so why keep it). Brexit has screwed up the ease of us moving to another EU country (which was the plan) as well as made the country feel really horrible in some ways. Life as an immigrant can be far more difficult than you'd imagine, even in an English speaking country, especially if you are very family oriented or struggle with easily making friends. A lot of my friends have moved away and in my 50s, I'm finding it really tough to make new ones. As someone who has an American accent, doesn't have kids or the shared life of growing up in England, it's really, really tough to become friends with people (and I don't live in a particularly expat/immigrant area). It's hard to get a visa. Very hard. I'd work first on anxiety and then think about the possibilities of moving to another area of the States before moving overseas.

[taratru]

Well, I'll just add a hello from Dubai. We just moved here last August. Sold our house, brought two of our kids, left family. It's been a challenge in a lot of ways, but very glad we did.
Moving overseas isn't a utopia, but it has its perks. One of you needs a job to get a visa, that is the easiest way.

I hope you find some peace soon no matter what you decide.

[maudefindlay]

My Aunt and Uncle picked up and moved from Chicago to New Zealand years ago and no regrets. Both wanted a more peaceful existence. They enjoy the lifestyle, very relaxed, the scenery, the people, and they love to visit Australia and Fiji on vacations. Fun fact when they first moved there their neighbor was Xena the Warrior Princess.

[wanderingback]

Also I agree with others that moving within the US could also be an option. I’ve only visited once but for example Alaska comes to mind if you’re looking for rural and relaxing!

[audette]

I am Canadian. And maintain that citizenship, because... well, *looks around at everything around me* I have the right to return, and being married to me means my husband can come with me and without too much craziness, get status that allows him to work and live there.


I've also lived overseas, due to my husband's career. Two years in Korea. And I enjoyed being there, but also knew I was only there for a finite time, and I had access to resources that helped for an expat.


It's not easy to pick up and move to another country. It really isn't. I know of two families right now that are going thru the process, and both are able to do it because they have parents or grandparents that were from countries that extend residency status to children/grandchildren of citizens. Beyond just the legalities, though, there are a bunch of other things - moving across a border (literally, moving your personal belongings) is challenging, and can be quite expensive. Establishing yourself in a new place is difficult - you'll have no credit history there, no banking history, no rent references, etc. Even simple things, like getting a cell phone will be harder because of all of that. Cost of living is higher in most places, as well.

All that to say, be cautious about just up and moving to a new country.

[shauni27]

Jun 1, 2022 2:32:05 GMT -5 taratru said:

Well, I'll just add a hello from Dubai. We just moved here last August. Sold our house, brought two of our kids, left family. It's been a challenge in a lot of ways, but very glad we did.
Moving overseas isn't a utopia, but it has its perks. One of you needs a job to get a visa, that is the easiest way.

I hope you find some peace soon no matter what you decide.

I almost tagged you! 

OP, I agree that if you are serious, after you find some therapy or medication to get you through these initial anxiety attacks, you could consider moving within the states to an area that is more aligned with your beliefs. 

[pixy0stix]

I hate these threads.

[heygrey]

Another thing to consider is your ability to vote in a foreign country. Very few allow noncitizens to vote in any kind of election so you really have to put up and shut up with politics. I have lived in Canada since I was 19 and I just got citizenship this year at 35. I have been an active part of my community through volunteering, but I couldn’t have a voice in the politics.

In the US you can be active in making changes - advocating, educating, voting.

[sent]

Jun 1, 2022 2:32:05 GMT -5 taratru said:

Well, I'll just add a hello from Dubai. We just moved here last August. Sold our house, brought two of our kids, left family. It's been a challenge in a lot of ways, but very glad we did.
Moving overseas isn't a utopia, but it has its perks. One of you needs a job to get a visa, that is the easiest way.

I hope you find some peace soon no matter what you decide.

As far as I know, Dubai only lets you stay while you are employable. My aunt and uncle were preparing to retire out of Dubai and move back to their motherland right when COVID hit and they got stuck. My uncle fell into a deep depression and his family was unable to arrange the kind of acute psychiatric care that I know he could have received in the USA. As a result, he passed away. His depression was brought on by the fact that his employer was taking advantage of him towards the end and not paying him. Strong employment laws aren’t a thing there either.

[aliciabella]

I am sorry I am no help but I understand.

[wise_rita]

Jun 1, 2022 1:13:52 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

May 31, 2022 20:14:23 GMT -5 isabel said:

DH noted, unprompted, the other day that we qualify for enough points to move to New Zealand. We've visited twice and really love it there, but even with all the shit in the US, I'm not sure I could actually follow through with it. I do plan to chat about it with a US-based Kiwi coworker next week. Ultimately, I think moving away from our families is a nonstarter for us.

I have friends move to NZ and they absolutely love it there. The only issue is that they were closed off from the world for two years because of the pandemic but they got back home 1-2 times a year

I've been biting my tongue a lot in this thread for the fetishization of the Antipodes, so thank you for bringing this up.

Also worth noting is their message of, "Just go back home" to foreigners when Covid first started and "You're not one of us enough" to allow actual citizens to return. Absolutely ghastly and I hope that fucker ScoMo rots the rest of his days because of it. That was Australia; I can't really say if NZ is the same.

When the chips are down living there could be well be a 1-way, non-consensual ticket.

[chickadee77]

*poof*

I agree with doing some counseling to try to get anxiety as much out of the equation as possible- I've lived abroad before as a student, and as someone with anxiety myself, I realize that moving likely won't remove those feelings - I'd just transfer them elsewhere, if that makes sense. And all countries have their own issues.

Good luck with whatever you decide, though. We'd already made our decision, then Roe blew up, then Uvalde happened, and it just keeps coming. So I get it. I also agree that getting out of TX could go a long way to help, too. We left FL and there was definite relief as we loaded those last boxes.

[momof2ms]

Charts?

If you are opening to staying the country, which would most likely be easier for your husbands job - the northeast is a great option.

www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/gun-violence-by-state

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

[msmerymac]

May 31, 2022 19:56:41 GMT -5 laurack said:

I have thought about it too. I’m from Ireland so we could move there. The problem is I don’t like the climate there as much and I feel like here there are a lot more opportunities here and more activities, wonderful land travel options etc. I love our life here. But each time there is a school shooting I wonder if we should move.

I agree that moving states might help you though. Where we are there are decent gun laws (Massachusetts) and relatively low gun ownership rates. While it doesn’t mean I don’t worry about mass shootings, I do think I worry a lot less than I would if I lived in a state with little or no gun laws.

How much does the Irish climate differ from Boston?

[just]

Jun 1, 2022 10:07:38 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

May 31, 2022 19:56:41 GMT -5 laurack said:

I have thought about it too. I’m from Ireland so we could move there. The problem is I don’t like the climate there as much and I feel like here there are a lot more opportunities here and more activities, wonderful land travel options etc. I love our life here. But each time there is a school shooting I wonder if we should move.

I agree that moving states might help you though. Where we are there are decent gun laws (Massachusetts) and relatively low gun ownership rates. While it doesn’t mean I don’t worry about mass shootings, I do think I worry a lot less than I would if I lived in a state with little or no gun laws.

How much does the Irish climate differ from Boston?

It's so rainy/grey and there's little or no summer.  It's overall just wetter and milder.

[AJL]

Jun 1, 2022 8:56:25 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I hate these threads.

Why?

[AJL]

We've considered moving to another country for awhile now. The big issue keeping us here were my parents, but they both passed away in 2020. My sister and her family are leaving soon for three weeks in Europe. They are visiting places that are options for immigration. She and her DH have extensive experience living in Europe. I'm meeting them at the halfway point and also trying to get a feel for life NOT in the US.

That being said, my DH has a job where he can literally work from anywhere. The easiest solution for us would be to leave Texas and we are seriously looking at blue states. We're in Austin and it's a liberal-ish city, but it's still in Texas. I'm tired of fighting the politics here. I've been doing that my whole adult life. I want to live some where I feel safe. The guns issue is a big one but that's a nationwide issue. Abortions rights is huge for me. I have an 11 year old daughter. I don't want to raise her in this place anymore. 

All that to say, I hear you. Do your research and really think about the pros and cons to leaving the US. And remember this is your decision. There is not right or wrong answer here. It takes a lot of courage and bravery to leave your home and move some where new. That's OK. You can do it if that's what you feel you need to do. 

[Deleted]

Jun 1, 2022 10:40:46 GMT -5 AJL said:

Jun 1, 2022 8:56:25 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I hate these threads.

Why?

I don’t want to speak for pixy….but for me, there’s a hell of a lot of privilege in the idea that one can just pick up and move to another country (though I don’t think this necessarily applies to OP). So many Americans have no choice but to stay and endure what’s going on, and continue to fight to make the changes that need to happen, rather than just throw their hands in the air and move away. Also, it’s really not that easy (for most people) to move to another country, and most of those countries have their own problems (maybe different from ours, but they still exist).

[taratru]

sent That's true. We are lucky enough to be teachers, which allows us to travel a lot more easily than a lot of people.

I acknowledge our privilege in this move. I also acknowledge this wasn't a "fuck America" as much as it was a "the pandemic showed us we should do what we want to do while we still can." That said, going back to the US is a non-starter for us at this point.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 1, 2022 11:00:52 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Jun 1, 2022 10:40:46 GMT -5 AJL said:

Why?

I don’t want to speak for pixy….but for me, there’s a hell of a lot of privilege in the idea that one can just pick up and move to another country (though I don’t think this necessarily applies to OP). So many Americans have no choice but to stay and endure what’s going on, and continue to fight to make the changes that need to happen, rather than just throw their hands in the air and move away. Also, it’s really not that easy (for most people) to move to another country, and most of those countries have their own problems (maybe different from ours, but they still exist).

Not only this, but at it's root it ties into our (general) belief that immigration is easy. That it doesn't take years and years and buckets of money to accomplish moving to a new country forever. That anyone can pick up and move wherever they want. Not only that, but it speaks to our (again general) intrinsic belief that Americans are welcomed everywhere. We are so goddamn self-centered that we (general) think we can do anything.

Secondly, when this comes up, the poster is usually white and wealthy (which includes the upper middle class). Which, come the fuck on that we're in danger. We're doing the thing where we pull our kids from public school and send them to private. Where we pay for private lessons for our kids so they don't have to be exposed to "danger". Where we move to the "best areas" for the "best schools" so our kids grow up to "be the best". AKA, where we save our whiteness because we're "scared".

All that to say, there are very valid points to being upset with the situation of this country, but the fact remains that the majority of the people that post these threads really have nothing to be afraid of.