parenting advice needed

[mae0111]

This might get long...

Summary: Our kids just can't get along.  It's to the point where we can't go out in public together.  I'm at the end of my rope and wondering if anyone has advice.  

Long version: DD1 (12, ADHD, NVLD) and DD2 (9, likely ADHD) CANNOT get along.  At all.  They literally can't be in the same general vicinity of each other without fighting.  It's constant.  DD1 is difficult - she's inflexible, bullies DD2, blackmails/holds things over her head (think "If you don't clean my room, I'll never play with you again.").  DD2, after years of this abuse, lashes out at every opportunity.  She's constantly trying to get DD1 in trouble to make herself look like the perfect kid - and then they both wind up in trouble.

They will fight and dig in their heels until they both lose privileges.  Example: They were arguing in the pool, DD2 was being a little snot, so I told her to go inside immediately and that she was done swimming.  DD1 was not blameless, but DD2 was the instigator, so I removed her.  When it was time to stop swimming, DD1 wouldn't clean up.  She claimed that since she didn't use it, she shouldn't have to clean it up.  It ended with me having to get in the pool (in my clothes because I was so pissed) to pick up all of the diving toys and coins that they were diving for, and now no one can use any of those toys.

They fight in front of their friends.  It's to the point where no one can stand to be around them because it's so annoying and embarrassing.

I don't know what to do any more.  DH is supposed to take them camping this weekend, giving me a much needed break.  He just had a weekend away and a nice break for himself, so he really wants to take them and allow me the same.  But taking them to the woods and exposing their behavior to the other people on the trip is unfair.

I've tried gently correcting a sharp tongue to change the tone; rewarding being nice to each other; praising good behavior; grounding them; only allowing them out of their rooms in shifts; taking away activities and trips; hard labor.  NOTHING works.  A lot of this is DD1's extremely difficult and inflexible personality, and DD2 having to tiptoe around her for so many years.  DD1 perceives a huge inequity in her treatment vs DD2, but the reality is that we do MUCH more for DD1, because she needs more.  

Does anyone have any advice?  

[waverly]

I think I would still have DH take them camping. 1. So he can see how bad it is and (maybe/ hopefully) help more at home. 2. So you can have some space to contemplate your next parenting steps.

Otherwise, I would separate them as much as possible. Are either of them in counseling?

I don't have great answers to this. As I've mentioned before, my sister deals with this, but being boys and one was in TKD, then it becomes physical. The oldest is more complaint, but has ADHD, and loves taking down his younger brother with punches etc. The youngest has, to our best knowledge, an undiagnosed mood disorder. Psych tests can back inconclusive. I get the impression that brotherly relationship has been better lately, but that might be because the oldest is 17.

When they are together my sister tries to do very fun physical things with them like mountain biking and wake boarding, but I don't think that is practical for every family. But she has tried to find that one thing that her youngest DS really really likes to do.

[sandandsea]

Maybe they have too much time together and never get a big enough break from each other. Can they be separated more? Like Alternate outings between kids and get a babysitter for the other. Like one kid goes camping the other stays home the. The other kid gets to go xyz while the other stays home.

ETA. I do think Dh should take them both camping this time for the reasons mentioned above.

[mae0111]

waverly, thank you. While he's not been around it a ton, he does know how bad it is. He absolutely lost his shit this morning. He definitely wants to take them camping because he knows that I'm in desperate need of a break. But I don't want to reward the bad behavior, you know?

DD1 has been in therapy for almost 3 years. Things have improved, but she's still difficult. DD2 was in therapy with the same therapist, but we all agreed that she seemed to be OK, so we discontinued. I might try to have her do a few sessions when DD1 is away this summer.

DD1 has been trying to separate herself because she knows that she can't help herself and keeps getting in trouble. But her sitting in her room all summer while DD2 swims is not a great option either.

We will get a break from the fighting when DD1 goes to camp for 4 weeks. Usually they get along for like 2 hours when she gets home, and then it's awful for the rest of the summer. So I'm just trying to find another solution to only letting them out of their rooms in shifts (which, again, was a thing for a while).

[sdlaura]

I remember reading 123 Magic years ago, and the author talking about how siblings often don’t get along at different points, and that’s normal and he just recommended doing as much with them separately as possible. My sister and I fought a ton during the middle and high school years but then got super close once I went to college and stayed that way. Your DD1 is going to camp soon, right? I’d probably just try to deal as best I could till that happens. And I would still have DH take them camping. Maybe a change of scenery and time with DH would help - and at least you’d get a break.

[mae0111]

sandandsea, believe it or not, they don't spend very much time together. They rarely hung out this spring. DD1 would have up to 5 basketball or softball games a week, plus practices. DD2 had soccer when DD1 had her stuff, so neither one watched the other much (they have each attended 2 games for the other this spring).

DD1 is old enough that she's off with friends when she's not busy with something. Or her friends are here. They're reasonably nice to DD2, much to DD1's dismay. I try to separate them when they have friends over, just to give them individual time with their buddies. But they have to coexist in, say, the pool.

If there's no other friends around, they just avoid each other. But we can't even sit down to a meal without a fight. It sucks.

[archiethedragon]

make them wear this until they get along

[mae0111]

Jun 14, 2022 10:19:46 GMT -5 archiethedragon said:

make them wear this until they get along

OMG WE HAVE THREATENED THIS!!!

[186momx]

I agree with everyone that DH should still take them camping because you need a break. I also think he should take an extra small tent that allows him to separate them when it comes to that. After camping you should have a pool schedule. Make a weekly schedule of when you are available to supervise and then make a stipulation that all chores must be done before you can enter during your time slot. So DD2 gets the pool from 12-2 and DD1 gets it from 2:15-4:15 but if DD2 can't get her clothes put away then she misses her slotted time. This may also help with you not having to be the neighborhood hang out as each kid only has that shortened window.

The middle school years were really hard and my brother and me. My mom had a baby and we both hated each other's friends, and it was just rough.

[mommyatty]

If DH can’t take them camping, then you need to get a hotel and leave the three of them home.

Can you call the therapist and see if you can do family therapy? Or if she has a suggestion for a family therapist?

Have you tried just letting them fight it out? We started doing that, and it seems to have really limited how much fun they get out of fighting/tattling/etc. But my kids’ were just low level bickering. Just throw them outside and tell them they aren’t allowed back in the house until they’ve finished and are ready to act human.

[twinmomma]

Jun 14, 2022 10:50:19 GMT -5 mommyatty said:

If DH can’t take them camping, then you need to get a hotel and leave the three of them home.

Can you call the therapist and see if you can do family therapy? Or if she has a suggestion for a family therapist?

Have you tried just letting them fight it out? We started doing that, and it seems to have really limited how much fun they get out of fighting/tattling/etc. But my kids’ were just low level bickering. Just throw them outside and tell them they aren’t allowed back in the house until they’ve finished and are ready to act human.

This is what my mom did to my sister and I during our worst fighting phase. I distinctly remember her saying “Just go in your room and don’t come out until you’ve beat the crap out of each other.” Obviously that didn’t happen, but she was at her wits end.

[vasc]

How much does DD2 know about DD1’s diagnoses and struggles?

I’m wondering how young is too young to be honest with her that it’s DD1’s diagnoses that are a roadblock to her being able to have a more functional sibling relationship.

You as a parent know when you’re being manipulated by DD1 (you’ve mentioned gaslighting for instance). Can you help DD2 recognize these manipulative moments and guide her on how to cope through them rather than react?

[AdaraMarie]

Can the girls do some therapy sessions together? Do you think a diagnosis/med for the younger one would make a difference?
Can you refuse to do anything for them/let them leave the house until they get along civilly?

I don't have any real advice just things to think about. Mine are 9 and nearly 12 (w/adhd and stuff) and the age difference is a struggle right now - it feels a lot different than last summer at 8/11. They fight every day but not to that level. I do a lot of: go to your room and come out when you can be civil. I also find myself saying "You are almost 12 why do I have to tell you every single day not to bite/lick your sister?"
I ignore (working from home) as much as I can but there is a 35 lb/6 inch size difference between mine so when the yelling/crying reaches a certain level I step in.

[vasc]

More thoughts….I assume the girls have worked on building coping skills for their various feelings with their therapists. Do they have visuals of those calm down strategies to refer to in their rooms? A calm down corner or something?

I teach emotional regulation at my school. I spend *so* much time talking about how feelings are universal but we cannot do anything that hurts ourselves, hurts others, or destroys property when we are in those fight/flight moments. Then we spend tons of time talking about what we can do instead to calm down. This applies to school and home.

[shakinros]

Your DH must take them camping. Do not absorb any more of this sibling conflict to your own detriment!

I have nothing new to add but I think family therapy is a good idea. Having someone look at the dynamic between them might be helpful.

[vasc]

I also tell students that they aren’t allowed to be bullies to their siblings. Some of the most horrific bullying stories I’ve heard have been sibling-on-sibling. Just because someone is blood related doesn’t make bullying behavior okay.

[waverly]

Jun 14, 2022 17:58:39 GMT -5 vasc said:

More thoughts….I assume the girls have worked on building coping skills for their various feelings with their therapists. Do they have visuals of those calm down strategies to refer to in their rooms? A calm down corner or something?

I teach emotional regulation at my school. I spend *so* much time talking about how feelings are universal but we cannot do anything that hurts ourselves, hurts others, or destroys property when we are in those fight/flight moments. Then we spend tons of time talking about what we can do instead to calm down. This applies to school and home.

I’ve been doing this too. DD is quick tempered so I’m trying to help her with her anger. It’s difficult though. If you have any resources let me know. She inherited the quick temper from her dad.

[vasc]

waverly

If you’re a TikTok/Reels watcher, look for #SEL or search emotional regulation. You’ll get tons of ideas from parents and counselors.

Do a Google image search for “Calm Down strategies” and you’ll find images you can print and hang as a poster in her room or on the fridge.

Search YouTube for videos on calming music or guided relaxation. I particularly like the channel called LoriLite.

Ask your kids what they’ve identified as ways to calm down. Let them create their own poster of ideas. Quiet time in their room, listening to calming music, drawing or playing Lego, cuddling stuffed animals, eating a snack….all good ideas.

Having a “short fuse” suggests the symptoms of anger are present but she’s slow to identify them. In a calm moment ask her to think about her body and identify the anger symptoms she has when she explodes. Racing heart? Sweating palms? Red face? Desire to punch something? If she can identify 2 or 3 symptoms then that paves the way for a queue to use the calm down strategies.

And of course model the above yourself for your own emotions. If you also have a short fuse, identify your symptoms and then talk out loud when you need to remove yourself. “Mommy’s starting to feel angry right now, I’m going to take a few deep breaths in my room and then I will be back when I’m calmer.”

[vasc]

These are from a quick Google image search.

[vasc]

This is on Teachers Pay Teachers:


I did a whole lesson on Anger Iceburg with fourth grade this year. Anger is a masking emotion for deeper hidden emotions:

[vasc]

Finally, I’ve subscribed to Big Life Journal emails. They are marketing their products to focus on growth mindset but plenty of their stuff also includes emotional regulation and problem solving skills.

biglifejournal.com

You can also find emotion workbooks and other materials for the kid audience on Amazon:

The Feelings Book (Revised): The Care and Keeping of Your Emotions a.co/7POHSmj

Me and My Feelings: A Kids' Guide to Understanding and Expressing Themselves a.co/aULKK8R

[vasc]

mae0111 I would absolutely send them camping not only for your own mental break but also because time outside is beneficial to emotional health. (I know your kids are outside a lot anyway but with what’s going on I’d be maximizing time in nature). Do they each have a hammock? If they can hang their own hammocks in different corners of the campsite then that can give the illusion of their own personal space.

I saw one of these at another campsite last time we went camping:

FIRINER Camping Hammock with Rain Fly Tarp and Mosquito Net Tent Tree Straps, Portable Single Double Nylon Parachute Hammock Rainfly Set for Backpacking Hiking Travel Yard Outdoor Activities a.co/2LoCksX

[mae0111]

A quick thank you for all of the advice and information. I have a ridiculous day today, but I will be back with more comments.