I have been estranged from my mom for about 8 years. We have lots of baggage due to childhood issues- parents divorce, sibling death, etc. We recently started talking again and I went down to see her. I thought the visit went great. But then she sent me a random meme and a note saying I was an unhappy person. She also said that it was clear I don’t love my husband and daughter (they weren’t with me on the trip). It was shocking honestly. The difficulty is that she is supposed to be having my daughter next week for a week of girl time. After what she sent, I am not comfortable with it. My daughter hasn’t seen her in 8 years, I will be out of state and our relationship is clearly very fraught. Wwyd? My daughter is 13 so I definitely will talk with her about her wishes.
I also wouldn’t give my kid the option. She probably doesn’t know the complexity of your relationship with your mom and that’s ok. I’d just tell her plans change and not send her.
I also wouldn’t give my kid the option. She probably doesn’t know the complexity of your relationship with your mom and that’s ok. I’d just tell her plans change and not send her.
No she doesn’t and she can’t really understand it all at her age. I feel it would be unfair of me to lay all that on her. However, it’s going to somewhat look like I am the bad guy and she is going to be disappointed.
Do you think you can give her some explanation without going into detail?
“After my visit with her, grandma was disrespectful and because of the choices she made and how she behaved, you unfortunately won’t be able to visit her next week. I’m sorry, as I know this may be a big disappointment for you, but I am not comfortable sending you to stay with her until I see more appropriate behavior.”
It’s just modeling to your child that you set, and enforce, boundaries to protect yourself - which is a good thing.
This phrasing really helped me. I’m really trying to set better boundaries which is part of our issues. Thank you for validating my need to do that.
I also wouldn’t give my kid the option. She probably doesn’t know the complexity of your relationship with your mom and that’s ok. I’d just tell her plans change and not send her.
No she doesn’t and she can’t really understand it all at her age. I feel it would be unfair of me to lay all that on her. However, it’s going to somewhat look like I am the bad guy and she is going to be disappointed.
Kids get to be disappointed at difficult decisions. I’m sure there is a lot that she’ll be disappointed about in her life. Your responsibility as a parent is to make the best decisions you can, not the most popular.
I do wonder, why did you set this up for an entire week with your child out of state with an estranged person without spending any time with them to see if they’d changed enough to be part of your life? Not a slam, just a pondering thought.
And that can be something you discuss with your kiddo. Just tell her you were hopeful, but it doesn’t seem like grandma has grown enough to be welcomed back into your lives. As PP said, you can let her know that grandma has said and done some things that are hurtful and unkind. I doubt your kid is going to want to spend a week of potential misery.
You can try a shorter visit at your house, if you still want to extend that olive branch. I might just take a hack saw to it myself, but it’s not my life.
Do you think you can give her some explanation without going into detail?
“After my visit with her, grandma was disrespectful and because of the choices she made and how she behaved, you unfortunately won’t be able to visit her next week. I’m sorry, as I know this may be a big disappointment for you, but I am not comfortable sending you to stay with her until I see more appropriate behavior.”
It’s just modeling to your child that you set, and enforce, boundaries to protect yourself - which is a good thing.
ans1999 : I might add the word "hurtful" to the "disrespectful" in the first part and phrase the last part like this: "I am not comfortable sending you to stay with her until she acts with more kindness. I love you. You deserve to spend time with people who show you love and kindness." It's similar but more explicit about what "appropriate" behavior is. Not that what you said isn't good, turbo
I turbo and sonrisa gave you some good wording to talk to your daughter.
Also, this is more than baggage from childhood issues. You know that, right? There is more here with your mom, and based on this one snippet - i highly doubt you’ll get the relationship with your mom that perhaps you were hoping for. And that’s because of her and HER issues. How she’s coped with life, perhaps mental health, other events you are unaware of …. Who knows. But what she said to you isn’t normal, isn’t coming from someone who is capable of having good relationships.
I’m just saying this to say that i think this is a lot less about you and more about her and you tried, and that’s great, but a relationship with her may simply not be in the cards.
Oh no…this post really resinates with me. I was estranged from my parents for about 7 yrs and then started to talk to them in the last year. We went to a big event and it went well so I thought things would finally be ok. Unfortunately they let the crazy out every so often and I had to adjust my boundaries and expectations. I know that it’s very hard to deal with the relationship you got vs the one you want. Your daughter is old enough to know some of what is going on and I would just tell her that you made a mistake and grandma isn’t ready to take her alone for a week because she can’t be kind and you don’t want her to be on the receiving end of her unkindness. I’d be very careful not to hide things in case your mom reaches out to her without asking you. My mother will bitch to everyone that she doesn’t get to see her grandchild but when she has opportunities (supervised) she doesn’t take them. It’s very manipulative and I had to realize and ACCEPT that they weren't going to act like a normal people - it makes it easier. Believe me, it’s very hard to take your emotions out it and set appropriate boundaries.
Thank you everyone! I’m not sure why I agreed to a week. I do feel bad that she hasn’t seen my kids and in particular my daughter (her only granddaughter). I am open some with my kids so I will be using the language above and hoping she understands. I did talk with my son about it who is older and he was as shocked I received the texts as I was. He was with me this weeekend. It is awful that things can’t be normal but deep down inside I knew this was the case. I still can’t believe she attacked my relationship with my core family- triggers me in so many ways. I definitely need to get into therapy.
Do you think you can give her some explanation without going into detail?
“After my visit with her, grandma was disrespectful and because of the choices she made and how she behaved, you unfortunately won’t be able to visit her next week. I’m sorry, as I know this may be a big disappointment for you, but I am not comfortable sending you to stay with her until I see more appropriate behavior.”
It’s just modeling to your child that you set, and enforce, boundaries to protect yourself - which is a good thing.
I think this is phrased very well. My relationship with my mother is very strained as well after a lifetime of her making terrible choices when it came to her kids. I do not allow my children around her without me present, and I’ve explained it in a similar way to this.
I’m sorry - it seems likes she’s projecting and trying to tear down the stable family you built. Good advice in this thread, and it’s a good teachable moment for your kids and dealing with toxic people.
Why do you feel bad she hasn’t seen your kids? I mean, in theory, i get it. I think we all have some kind of idealized concepts in our heads about the role grandparents should play in our kids lives.
But - when reality tells a different story, we need to let go of these concepts. After 8 years of not having a relationship with you, In one brief moment, she ruined the good visit you had. I HIGHLY doubt she’s capable of having a “normal” relationship with your kids!! I really say “be careful what you wish for” here.
Why do you feel bad she hasn’t seen your kids? I mean, in theory, i get it. I think we all have some kind of idealized concepts in our heads about the role grandparents should play in our kids lives.
But - when reality tells a different story, we need to let go of these concepts. After 8 years of not having a relationship with you, In one brief moment, she ruined the good visit you had. I HIGHLY doubt she’s capable of having a “normal” relationship with your kids!! I really say “be careful what you wish for” here.
Another good point… I feel guilty as she expresses that she hasn’t been allowed to see them, tell others how long she hasn’t seen them, etc. I need to see those manipulations for what they are. I am terrified that she will do what she does to me to the kids. They don’t deserve it and they weren’t raised with that kind of turmoil. I am used to being lashed out at and it makes me feel unworthy. Ugh- I’m kicking myself for even getting involved in this again. 😑
So, I don’t know how much good advice I have, but I can relate because I have been estranged from my mom for over 10 years (we have not spoken or communicated at all during that time. She has not met my 10 year old. She only met my 15 year old once when he was a baby). She has issues with alcoholism and mental health. My sister and I both don’t speak with her and honestly it’s a positive thing for us.
I will comment on talking to your kids about it. I have always been very open with my kids about my mom and why they don’t know her. I don’t tell all the dirty details (although I give them if:when they ask) but I’m clear that she is an alcoholic etc and that just because someone is family doesn’t mean you have to have a relationship with them. I think it’s REALLY important that they understand that. I talk to them a lot about surrounding yourself with people who care about you and make your life better - and not people that harm you (emotionally or physically). You can work at relationships but at a certain point there are some that just aren’t beneficial for you, and it’s ok to make that decision.
My kids luckily have other grandparents (including my step mom) they are close to. They don’t need a relationship with a toxic individual. I do feel badly for my mom sometimes because a lot of this is due to her untreated mental health issues and abuse she herself suffered in childhood. But her refusal to acknowledge her own issues and get any type of treatment plus the way she behaves towards me/my sister is not my fault and I don’t feel guilty that she doesn’t have a relationship with her grandkids. Her choices and actions led us here and I don’t need to subject my kids to it just because they are related
Why do you feel bad she hasn’t seen your kids? I mean, in theory, i get it. I think we all have some kind of idealized concepts in our heads about the role grandparents should play in our kids lives.
But - when reality tells a different story, we need to let go of these concepts. After 8 years of not having a relationship with you, In one brief moment, she ruined the good visit you had. I HIGHLY doubt she’s capable of having a “normal” relationship with your kids!! I really say “be careful what you wish for” here.
Another good point… I feel guilty as she expresses that she hasn’t been allowed to see them, tell others how long she hasn’t seen them, etc. I need to see those manipulations for what they are. I am terrified that she will do what she does to me to the kids. They don’t deserve it and they weren’t raised with that kind of turmoil. I am used to being lashed out at and it makes me feel unworthy. Ugh- I’m kicking myself for even getting involved in this again. 😑
two things can be true: she can act in ways they are damaging to your relationship and unsafe emotionally for your kids. AND she can be genuinely sad about the consequences of those actions - the estrangement from her family.
You feeling bad that she has put herself in this position and misses the kids is okay. It’s a sign of your compassion not a weakness or problem on your part. But it doesn’t mean you have to fix this for her or give in to her demands. It’s sad she’s done this. Sad for you, Sad for your kids, and sad for her. But she *has* done this.
Post by fivechickens on Jun 27, 2022 8:33:30 GMT -5
You have gotten some good advice. I would not send my kid. Like some has said, this is her doing not yours.
I have been estranged relationship with my dad/no relationship with his family so I understand feeling that guilt. Bottom line, it their doing that the relationship is this way. Keep reminding yourself that when you feel guilt.
Sending love and support to everyone who is dealing with toxic relatives. I've just been through something like this myself. My H's mom's memorial service finally happened last week, and his brother's ex-wife sent us some unbelievably cruel texts the day before the service. Just to make us feel like shit, I guess. So now she is blocked everywhere, but it pains me because my kids really loved her kids, and would love to see their cousins again. But it's just not going to happen while she is acting like this.
ans1999 don't kick yourself; you were hopeful and that is never a bad thing. Sometimes reality comes and kicks us in the face, though, and you are doing the right thing by stopping a week-long visit.
Why do you feel bad she hasn’t seen your kids? I mean, in theory, i get it. I think we all have some kind of idealized concepts in our heads about the role grandparents should play in our kids lives.
But - when reality tells a different story, we need to let go of these concepts. After 8 years of not having a relationship with you, In one brief moment, she ruined the good visit you had. I HIGHLY doubt she’s capable of having a “normal” relationship with your kids!! I really say “be careful what you wish for” here.
Another good point… I feel guilty as she expresses that she hasn’t been allowed to see them, tell others how long she hasn’t seen them, etc. I need to see those manipulations for what they are. I am terrified that she will do what she does to me to the kids. They don’t deserve it and they weren’t raised with that kind of turmoil. I am used to being lashed out at and it makes me feel unworthy. Ugh- I’m kicking myself for even getting involved in this again. 😑
I can't say it better than what sonrisa said - this is all your mother's doing, not yours.
To the above - I do understand where you're coming from. While it's not a toxic/ estrangement issue w/ my FIL, he can be similar in these kinds of manipulations. He bemoans how he's not close to DS, he wishes he saw him more, but when actually presented with the opportunity to see DS - he never ever capitalizes on it.
What I will also say - it IS possible for your mom to be who she is to you, but then also be a great grandmother. I've seen it happen - shitty parents somehow can "switch" and be awesome grandparents. But but but - if this might possibly be possible, it has to evolve with babysteps. Your mom would need to be given small opportunities with your kids so that you can see how she is/ how it goes and decide if you're o.k. with it. But - I say this as an idea. It is NO WAY is to say you SHOULD do this. If doing this would lead to too much interaction for YOU and your mom, then you don't have to do this. You really don't!
Not all kids have great grandparents, or great relationships with their grandparents. You still need to protect yourself in all of this too. In the end, your kids will know of your mom what YOU want them to know, YOU can frame who she is, what their relationship is with her, etc. She has no rights to your kids.
Another good point… I feel guilty as she expresses that she hasn’t been allowed to see them, tell others how long she hasn’t seen them, etc. I need to see those manipulations for what they are. I am terrified that she will do what she does to me to the kids. They don’t deserve it and they weren’t raised with that kind of turmoil. I am used to being lashed out at and it makes me feel unworthy. Ugh- I’m kicking myself for even getting involved in this again. 😑
I can't say it better than what sonrisa said - this is all your mother's doing, not yours.
To the above - I do understand where you're coming from. While it's not a toxic/ estrangement issue w/ my FIL, he can be similar in these kinds of manipulations. He bemoans how he's not close to DS, he wishes he saw him more, but when actually presented with the opportunity to see DS - he never ever capitalizes on it.
What I will also say - it IS possible for your mom to be who she is to you, but then also be a great grandmother. I've seen it happen - shitty parents somehow can "switch" and be awesome grandparents. But but but - if this might possibly be possible, it has to evolve with babysteps. Your mom would need to be given small opportunities with your kids so that you can see how she is/ how it goes and decide if you're o.k. with it. But - I say this as an idea. It is NO WAY is to say you SHOULD do this. If doing this would lead to too much interaction for YOU and your mom, then you don't have to do this. You really don't!
Not all kids have great grandparents, or great relationships with their grandparents. You still need to protect yourself in all of this too. In the end, your kids will know of your mom what YOU want them to know, YOU can frame who she is, what their relationship is with her, etc. She has no rights to your kids.
I totally agree with you that she could be a great grandparent. I would be open to babysteps but we live 1000 miles apart. We went a little too far too fast for sure.
I’m sorry your mom is so toxic, but I’m glad you aren’t sending your daughter for an unsupervised week with her. Any visits between them should start off short and supervised by you, although frankly after her last display, if this were me there would be no visits at all. Don’t beat yourself up over it, but definitely put a stop to it right now. And I agree that therapy would be helpful for you in figuring out things like boundaries, assertiveness, and prioritizing your kids’ well being over your mom’s. I wish you the very best.
Post by maudefindlay on Jun 27, 2022 10:28:38 GMT -5
Ok, 1000 miles away and there just won't be a relationship then. Too far away for baby steps. Cutting her off is easier said than done, but ultimately you have to protect your kids and yourself. If she started badmouthing you to your kid it would be upsetting for them and very hard to get them home easily.
I can't say it better than what sonrisa said - this is all your mother's doing, not yours.
To the above - I do understand where you're coming from. While it's not a toxic/ estrangement issue w/ my FIL, he can be similar in these kinds of manipulations. He bemoans how he's not close to DS, he wishes he saw him more, but when actually presented with the opportunity to see DS - he never ever capitalizes on it.
What I will also say - it IS possible for your mom to be who she is to you, but then also be a great grandmother. I've seen it happen - shitty parents somehow can "switch" and be awesome grandparents. But but but - if this might possibly be possible, it has to evolve with babysteps. Your mom would need to be given small opportunities with your kids so that you can see how she is/ how it goes and decide if you're o.k. with it. But - I say this as an idea. It is NO WAY is to say you SHOULD do this. If doing this would lead to too much interaction for YOU and your mom, then you don't have to do this. You really don't!
Not all kids have great grandparents, or great relationships with their grandparents. You still need to protect yourself in all of this too. In the end, your kids will know of your mom what YOU want them to know, YOU can frame who she is, what their relationship is with her, etc. She has no rights to your kids.
I totally agree with you that she could be a great grandparent. I would be open to babysteps but we live 1000 miles apart. We went a little too far too fast for sure.
Having said that, if it’s important to HER, she’ll find a way to make it happen. Phone calls/FaceTime? She can come out for a short visit? You can meet in a third location for a longer visit? I understand she may not have the financial means for lots of shorter visits, but if it’s important to her, she can find a way to have a relationship with her granddaughter AND respect your boundaries.
Absolutely do not feel bad about not sending her. I’d just be happy she did this now before your daughter was there. Also, I think 13 is old enough for your daughter to understand and I’d explain you made a mistake but this is an example of trusting your gut and doing what’s best as a parent to keep everyone safe. If my grandma said those things when I was 13 about my mom, I wouldn’t have wanted anything to do with her. Especially if we didn’t have a relationship anyway.
I am estranged from my brother and the rest of my family are still in contact with him, so there are a few family members who try to put the blame on me and try to make me feel terrible about my boundaries.
I have found it really helpful to allow myself to feel sad about the situation and reminding myself not to feel guilty. I am sad that his behavior means that we no longer have a close relationship. I am sad that my boundaries mean that I sometimes cannot make the plans I would like to with my family due to his presence. I do not feel guilty about the boundaries I have put in place. I may be open to changing my boundaries if I see real change on his part, but I am not open to changing my boundaries due to guilt trips.
Post by badgerwrangler on Jun 27, 2022 10:57:45 GMT -5
So sorry you are going through this but you have gotten some great advice. My family of origin is full of addiction/mental health problems/toxicity so I can certainly relate.
I, in some insane moment of weakness, invited my mom on a trip with my son and I in the fall and I am already feeling panicky over it. If she starts acting up, I am stuck with her. I have no idea how I could about uninviting her though. Shit show.
I'm going to give a different perspective. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I saw my grandparents before they passed. They lived thousands of miles away before the internet was a thing.
My mother was awful to me growing up. She was a bona fide bully to me for as long as I can remember except my sibling and I only realized this behavior in our 30s. I don't think I ever had the opportunity to be estranged especially since I became very sick for a while and needed help and with grandkids in the picture now.
My mother is a completely different person, in a good way, to my kids. She cares a lot about them and their happiness and their opinions. She goes out of her way to be an amazing grandmother to them. However, she still doesn't care about any of that when it comes to me and is still awful to me. Fine whatever, at least my kids think she's awesome.
This is only a week in your 13 year old's life. I wish I could have spent a week with any of my grandparents at age 13. Even if they had not done the grandparent-like things we idolize in our minds, it would have been neat to just see what my grandmother's daily life routine was. Like did she spend her day yelling at the TV or did she have an active social life or did she prefer to sit at home with the shades drawn. Did she spend the week trying to convince me my family was awful (which I think at 13 I would have been smart enough to not be swayed) or did she tell me stories about her life when she was a kid "in the olden days" and when she was 13 years old?
I would consider sending her, assuming it is safe to do so (based on what I've read, it seems like it would be).
I would not let my daughter go, a week is a long time, especially considering they haven’t seen each other in 8yrs. Her actions have consequences. I’m sorry you’re in this situation:(
Ok douche, go ahead and call it mud. My husband DID have halitosis. We addressed it after I talked to you girls on here and guess what? Years later, no problem. Mofongo, you're a cunt. Eat shit. ~anonnamus
I'm going to give a different perspective. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I saw my grandparents before they passed. They lived thousands of miles away before the internet was a thing.
My mother was awful to me growing up. She was a bona fide bully to me for as long as I can remember except my sibling and I only realized this behavior in our 30s. I don't think I ever had the opportunity to be estranged especially since I became very sick for a while and needed help and with grandkids in the picture now.
My mother is a completely different person, in a good way, to my kids. She cares a lot about them and their happiness and their opinions. She goes out of her way to be an amazing grandmother to them. However, she still doesn't care about any of that when it comes to me and is still awful to me. Fine whatever, at least my kids think she's awesome.
This is only a week in your 13 year old's life. I wish I could have spent a week with any of my grandparents at age 13. Even if they had not done the grandparent-like things we idolize in our minds, it would have been neat to just see what my grandmother's daily life routine was. Like did she spend her day yelling at the TV or did she have an active social life or did she prefer to sit at home with the shades drawn. Did she spend the week trying to convince me my family was awful (which I think at 13 I would have been smart enough to not be swayed) or did she tell me stories about her life when she was a kid "in the olden days" and when she was 13 years old?
I would consider sending her, assuming it is safe to do so (based on what I've read, it seems like it would be).
The difference between your situation and OP’s is that you hadn’t cut off all communication with your mother for many years before you just sent her for a week. The only interaction they’ve had in years turned out terribly. Also, you’re closer to your mother logistically, if I remember correctly. OP cannot drive over and check on things. And putting a 13 yo in a potentially tense/unpleasant situation, and relying on them to deal with it on their own for an entire week seems like a lot.
Perhaps they can build a relationship first, but your situation is very different from OP’s.
The difference between your situation and OP’s is that you hadn’t cut off all communication with your mother for many years before you just sent her for a week. The only interaction they’ve had in years turned out terribly. Also, you’re closer to your mother logistically, if I remember correctly. OP cannot drive over and check on things. And putting a 13 yo in a potentially tense/unpleasant situation, and relying on them to deal with it on their own for an entire week seems like a lot.
Perhaps they can build a relationship first, but your situation is very different from OP’s.
Of course. I wasn't trying to say it's the same thing at all and I did mention only if she thought it was safe. If grandma is going to spend every waking hour tormenting the child, then no of course don't send her. But grandma also behaved normally with the OP on a recent trip so only the OP knows what living with grandma is like on a daily basis. I was thinking from the point of view of 13 year old me curious to spend a week with a grandparent that I don't know much about. Adult me will never know what it might have been like because I will never have that chance again. OP did mention she was going to talk to her daughter first about the situation.