How much would you “parent” an irresponsible parent?

[fangoriagurkel]

My father has always had mental health and substance abuse difficulties which he does not address. He’s 72 years of age and lives in what could qualify in a “Hoarders” type home. He still drinks quite a bit along with smoking 2 packs a week. He has kidney failure and will need a transplant sooner rather than later.

He has no POA, advanced directives, living will, etc… because he feels he doesn’t need them. How do my brother and I go about encouraging him to sign paperwork, create a will, at least organize the house, etc…?

I am willing to be a living donor while my sibling is not (their choice) but I feel some sort of paperwork should be “on file”. Perhaps irresponsible might be the wrong language but how do you talk to your parents about making sure their final wishes are in order?

[heygrey]

You don't. You express your opinions and then you let them be. They are allowed to make their own choices even if those choices are seemingly terrible.

What you can do is get on the same page with your sibling. How will you share care for your father when his health inevitably fails? Are there resources in your area to care for ailing seniors who are home bound? How will you clean up and prepare the house for sale when your father passes? Etc. Etc. Have these conversations now when you aren't highly emotional and grieving, and assume that there will be no paperwork in place. Speak to a lawyer about what to expect for an estate that has no will.

Also, I would thoroughly understand the implications of donating a kidney and how it could effect my health and my family.

[mofongo]

Well, I don’t know that you can force this on someone, even though I think everyone needs advanced directives, a will, etc. H and I just finalized ours earlier this year.

Regarding the transplant, which is the area I work in, he may not be a candidate or even want one. If he medically needs ones, he has to undergo a bunch of testing and meet with social work to assess mental health, etc. It sounds like he probably has some barriers. As a potential donor you have to go through a similar process, but also need to be a match.

I understand your position, but I don’t think you can make him do anything:(

[mofongo]

Also, depending on the extent of his mental health issues, it’s possible he could be considered unable to make decision for himself, but that is a drastic measure and usually difficult to get, and for extreme situations.

[sofamonkey]

Yeah, agree with mofo - I doubt he’s a candidate. If he’s living in hoarder type conditions, he will not have access to clean facilities at home, and will not have proper mobility for care. He smokes and drinks. Any just one of those would likely exclude him on their own.

I know it is frustrating watching someone make poor choices, They are, however crappy, his choices to make. I’d attempt to speak with him about simple things first - POA would be a great place to start. If you discuss too much at once, it will likely be overwhelming and might lead to him shutting down on your attempts to talk.

Hugs. This is the shorty part of life when you’re starting the grieving process early because of poor behavior. Unfortunately, starting early it just makes it longer and worse.

[Leeham Rimes]

I personally wouldn’t bc in my experience, one cannot convince a person engage in unhealthy habits likely tied to poor mental health, that they, in fact, don’t know everything and perhaps they should plan for the unexpected. They cannot reason like a typical person can.

My father died last month an unrepentant alcoholic who never once addressed his mental health issues that led to his alcohol induced death. He never once believed he would die from this and therefore refused to make any sort of end of life plans. He did have a will, but he didn’t do a lot of other things that needed to be done. My mom spent 2020-2022 trying to avoid a “clean up” situation, spending tens of thousands of dollars on legal help/financial help professionals, only to have a disaster of a clean up situation after his death.

Even on his literal death bed would make comments about “when I get out I’m going to need a new car”. Life—wtf dude, you’re literally dying—-there’s no “getting out of here”

(I’d also be surprised if they would go forward with a kidney transplant with your father smoking, drinking, and living in an unhealthy environment. They’re quite strict about these things, as they don’t want adverse reactions to all the medications he’ll have to be on. My father could have had a liver transplant but couldn’t stop drinking and disqualified himself time and time again.)

Sorry you’re dealing with this. It’s terribly heartbreaking.

[Leeham Rimes]

Jun 28, 2022 23:10:39 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Also, depending on the extent of his mental health issues, it’s possible he could be considered unable to make decision for himself, but that is a drastic measure and usually difficult to get, and for extreme situations.

If you’re talking about a conservatorship, those are nearly impossible to get and if you try, you’ll be out tens of thousands, if not more bc —at least in my state— you have to pay for the other side as well. It’s so incredibly difficult, most attorneys in my area won’t even try.

It’s not illegal to make poor choices. It’s not illegal to be an addict (in my dad’s case), the bar for this isn’t “wow, he can’t make healthy decisions” it’s “does he have lucid moments” and (as it was explained to us) even if they have 23 1/2 hours of bad moments and a moment of lucidity, that’s enough.

[mofongo]

Jun 29, 2022 3:48:35 GMT -5 Leeham Rimes said:

Jun 28, 2022 23:10:39 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Also, depending on the extent of his mental health issues, it’s possible he could be considered unable to make decision for himself, but that is a drastic measure and usually difficult to get, and for extreme situations.

If you’re talking about a conservatorship, those are nearly impossible to get and if you try, you’ll be out tens of thousands, if not more bc —at least in my state— you have to pay for the other side as well. It’s so incredibly difficult, most attorneys in my area won’t even try.

It’s not illegal to make poor choices. It’s not illegal to be an addict (in my dad’s case), the bar for this isn’t “wow, he can’t make healthy decisions” it’s “does he have lucid moments” and (as it was explained to us) even if they have 23 1/2 hours of bad moments and a moment of lucidity, that’s enough.

I acknowledged it was difficult to get. I was thinking of a guardianship as I have seen those in my line of work. I know the difference between poor choices and a true inability to make choices for yourself, it was just a thought.

[Leeham Rimes]

Jun 29, 2022 5:06:53 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Jun 29, 2022 3:48:35 GMT -5 Leeham Rimes said:

If you’re talking about a conservatorship, those are nearly impossible to get and if you try, you’ll be out tens of thousands, if not more bc —at least in my state— you have to pay for the other side as well. It’s so incredibly difficult, most attorneys in my area won’t even try.

It’s not illegal to make poor choices. It’s not illegal to be an addict (in my dad’s case), the bar for this isn’t “wow, he can’t make healthy decisions” it’s “does he have lucid moments” and (as it was explained to us) even if they have 23 1/2 hours of bad moments and a moment of lucidity, that’s enough.

I acknowledged it was difficult to get. I was thinking of a guardianship as I have seen those in my line of work. I know the difference between poor choices and a true inability to make choices for yourself, it was just a thought.

As far as I know they’re the same, or at least our attorneys used them interchangeably. And it definitely wasn’t a dig at you, just wanted to chime in since I have personal knowledge at how hard it is to get. i never knew the bar to care for oneself is so incredibly low.

Even with a power of attorney, which my mom had thankfully, her ability to make decisions for him ended pretty much the minute he could tell you what day it was. Luckily (depending on how you look at it I guess) my dad did so much damage to himself that he rarely could tell you even that.

[sunshineluv]

I am so sorry, I could have written almost all of the same things about my dad. But he had a wife so there was someone for medical decisions and such. I don’t have an answer but wanted to share my sympathy, it’s very difficult to watch someone you love go through this.

[Deleted]

You can't. As a child of an alcoholic it is so difficult to to watch a parent destroy their life. Living in hoarding or unsafe conditions can be a co disease. I became my dad's guardian because he had a hemorrhagic stroke and was in an induced coma (it was 3k in...mid 2000s). We just did what he thought he would want. If he truly cared, he would have told us. But he's dead so he doesn't even know what we did anyway.

Regardless if you are a willing donor, your dad has to follow the program's transplant protocol and drinking, smoking, and unhealthy living conditions will likely exclude him from it. The programs want best outcomes and have set protocols.

Due to his age, substance abuse, and living conditions you can call adult protective services and they may forced his hand to at least clean his house. But it will likely be a shitshow (ala hoarders who don't want to give up their hoard) and you'd need to help get or provide a safe place for your dad. I personally would not recommend this unless you truly believe he's an immediate danger to himself. Most active addicts live in a state of denial. Their brain literally changes and justifies their substance abuse. The disease is maddening because your brain is working against itself.

Please take care of yourself. I know it is difficult to watch someone be self destructive. I had to look up codependency and really work on myself.

[tacokick]

I think the best thing to give yourself some peace of mind would be to research what happens if he doesn’t do any of that. You really can’t force him to do anything so knowing what comes next is helpful IMO. Do you know anything about any assets he might have? What bank he uses? Anything related to the house? His car? That would be helpful to you to find out about as well.


In general if he doesn’t have a will, it will go to his next living relative. If it goes through probate depends on your state and the value of his assets. Will things be easier and quicker if he has a will? Probably but if things would go to you and your brother (which it seems like he might accept?) anyway it ultimately won’t make that much of a difference.

If he is in poor health and admitted to the hospital for any reason they will have staff that can get him the paperwork to sign advanced directives. That is one way you might have some success with that. They can be used for future visits/issues too.

So much of health care luck of the draw. When caring for my mother at the end we had doctors and officials who insisted she had to make every single decision and sign documents on her “bad days” dealing with terminal brain cancer and others that realized she wasn’t well and asked us what we wanted them to do/allowed me to sign as her POA. It was awful and stressful even with the proper paperwork. It’s better to have them 100% but even having them might not make as much difference one might hope. The medical system is awful and broken. But in case you can’t get them, know that they don’t always make that much of a difference. They should but you are at the mercy of whoever is on duty that day. I don’t know if knowing that helps but I wish I had known that going in.

I’m sorry you have to deal with all this! It is the worst.

[eddy]

This is advice you might not want. If so just ignore me. My dad is not dealing with the same issues your dad is dealing with, but after my mom died I went to therapy to learn how to set up emotional boundaries with some of his very unhealthy emotional habits. I was trying to fix everything for him to my own mental detriment. I was absolutely trying to parent him and he would have loved nothing more then for me to continue. It is what my mom did so he was very comfortable with the arrangement. 

Anyways this is a long way of saying I learned it is not my job to fix things for others. Especially if they have free will. 

It might be helpful for you to also seek out therapy to talk through these type of boundaries. It is really really hard to just sit back and not feel the weight of responsibility. 

[eddy]

Leeham Rimes , I didn't realize your dad died. I am very sorry. I know your relationship was complicated and unhealthy with him. So I wish for you peace going forward.

[stemmie]

I am sorry you are living this.

Unless your dad is so impaired by his mental illness, it is very unlikely that you would be able to obtain a conservatorship/guardianship. This would be more likely in the care of something like schizophrenia, treatment resistant bi-polar or mid-stage dementia. I know people who have gone this route and succeeded with a person who had dementia but not substance use or mental health conditions.

FWIW, he'd have to meet criteria for transplant that would require uncomfortable lifestyle changes he may be unwilling to make. Drinking and smoking are likely obstacles here and if there's depression of any kind that could be an issue as well. Transplant services do all they can to produce glowing outcomes and sometimes that means screening out those who can't or won't follow protocols to increase their odds for a good outcome.

Regarding the hoarding, unless it's animals, I might just look the other way if he is able to exit the house if needed in an emergency. You could call APS for a well-check, but that is a nuclear option that could make keeping an eye on him harder if it pisses him off. Another risk could be APS involvement triggers a court-appointed guardian causing you to lose input around next steps.

My own dad had a form of alcohol-related dementia and would not maintain sobriety, so I do get how frustrating his behavior must be for you. In a similar situation, the best I was able to do was craft a Plan B for when it all went sideways in terms of finding a Certified Elder Law Attorney, a good memory center for diagnosis/care and tour Memory Care Facilities/Skilled Nursing Homes for that time when I had to take over.

[ECB]

What was actually a bit eye-opening to me when my dad died - he died about 1.5 years ago from Alzheimer's.  Seeing some of the stuff my stepmother was left with - was eye-opening.  My dad only had a $30,000 life insurance policy.  And they were more in debt than I had realized because my stepmother felt she had to financially rescue 2 of her sisters, largely to my parents detriment.  But she made a comment to me that there was a lot they didn't do/ didn't prepare for (like having a larger insurance policy) because they thought they were going to live forever.   

That's the thing - people don't want to necessarily admit they are old, they don't want to have to say "I'm going to die".

Even as my dad progressed from dementia to Alzheimer's, my SM kept holding out hope that some miracle drug would come along, some advancement would come along that would save my dad.

There is a lot they DID do- they have wills, medical directives were in place, etc.  They did take all those steps.  And my SM now has been cleaning out the house!  Going through closets and getting rid of stuff they haven't touched in 40 years, etc.  Specifically to keep me from having to deal with it once she dies.  

So- they weren't totally in "la la land" about dying, but at the same time- they really felt they were going to live a MUCH longer time than my dad did.  

So - that's just to say that along with everything else you're dealing with, you're also dealing - probably- with the basic human feeling of "i'm not old"

[lucybrown]

You've received good advice above. The short answer is that you can't.

Leeham Rimes, I also hadn't realized your dad died. I'm sorry. I hope you continue to find healing as you move forward.

[litskispeciality]

I'm really, really sorry. Also ((( Leeham Rimes,))) I'm sorry for that last update. I know it's been a major thing in your life. Go easy on yourself as you go through a lot of emotions that differ from "traditional" loss.

PDQ

My mom died from alcoholism. She of course never admitted it, and actually would said "when I was in the hospital for no reason" detoxing from alcohol on Christmas Day. All that to say they just live in a dream world that everything is fine, yet us adult kids are helping our parents like they're 90. It's f*cking hard. She was not diagnosed as a hoarder, but yeah we were so lucky to have never had a fire. She cashed out her life insurance when she was still alive, none of us knew. She never signed POA or anything, and my dad had to deal with everything after her passing. When he eventually moved cleaning out the house was a g-d nightmare, and we eventually had to pay thousands of dollars to remove everything from the house because DH, my brother and I couldn't take more time off of work to do it. Anyway, I send you so much strength for that.

I wish I had better advice other than somehow getting in the mind set that you can't do anything else. If you're not already in counseling I strongly recommend doing that. I didn't really understand Al-Anon, but meetings were somewhat helpful when my mom passed. Don't tell your family member about either, they'll say you don't need it as they don't have an issue. Wishing you peace and strength. Happy to PM as well.

[fangoriagurkel]

Even though I don’t post much, I look to ML as the sisters I’ve never had.

I wildly appreciate everyone’s perspective and advice and agree that I need to take a deep breath and step back.I know in my heart that he’s the opposite of a donor candidate but it is still hard to accept. It’s pretty much a waiting game at this point. I know I need to get serious about setting codependency limits and not trying to police his life, as he doesn’t respond to it anyway.

I find solace in that I have a small card in which he wrote my name, so I can get that tattooed on me when he does pass away. It might sound silly or morbid, but I’m going to miss his penmanship most of all.

[DotAndBuzz]

Unless you want to go the route of guardianship (which is a lot of work to obtain and maintain/execute), there's not much you can do.

pdq

A dear friend pursued this with her mother after her dad died. She didn't realize how far-gone her mother was, mentally, until her dad died and and the circumstances around his death/how her mother was living really came to light. She was able to obtain guardianship of her mother, but only after proving through multiple evaluations and home visits that she was no longer able to be "in charge" of her own affairs. And since the mother *thought* she was 100% fine, it was all done somewhat on the sly. Every step she took in caring for her mom was an act of manipulation out of necessity, because her mom (until the day she died), thought she was totally, fully functional. But she most definitely wasn't, and was a CLEAR danger to herself and others. It took a heavy toll on my friend, and her marriage. 3 years of her life were fully (and I mean FULLY) consumed with phone calls, paper work, late night phone calls, doctor visits, medical tests, social worker visits, court filings, etc. And it happened during Covid, on top of all that.

My friend didn't do this out of some deep compassion towards her mom, but simply because her other siblings decided their line was to fully disengage (it was an abusive and traumatic childhood for all), and she felt a responsibility to at least try to care for their mom. No one was right or wrong, they each had different boundaries they had to draw.

In the end, my friend also had to draw substantial boundaries with her mom, and she's still processing everything that happened. She questions her decision, but is torn, because there's no good answer for something like this.

Whatever you decide is ok. It's ok to step back, and it's ok to try, but remember that the person may not want your help. If you are able to help, they may resent you for it. Take care of yourself and talk to someone if you can, to help you through this emotionally (regardless of what direction you decide to go).

[waverly]

I would have that conversation with the parent. If they say no you can’t force them but if you can at least get a POA.

My sister has POA for my dad, and her lawyer says she doesn’t need guardianship. She also got conservatorship.

I sat in on many cases over zoom waiting for his case to be called. Most guardianship cases, were no issue if the person agreed. It’s when they contend that it becomes an issue.

I agree he’s probably not a candidate for transplant, so I would t worry about that part. Sorry.

[shortstax]

I'm sorry you have to deal with this all. But also, not making it your situation to deal with is absolutely a valid choice.

This advice may or may not be helpful to you, but I donated a kidney 2 years ago. In addition to his drinking/lifestyle/etc potentially disqualifying him from the process, there's a significant psychological evaluation process for potential donors.

They really press (and will disqualify potential donors without sharing details to all involved) that feeling like you "should" is not a sole reason to donate, and if you feel the participant will not respect and follow post-transplant protocol, then you shouldn't donate. I don't say this lightly, but at 72 with substance abuse issues that he does not address, I'd recommend you pause and take time to really examine if a transplant would be in both of your best interests.

[dexteroni]

I'm sorry you're dealing with this, and to everyone else who has dealt with this. I agree that for the most part, the answer is "you can't." But one thing I would try to push on is POA and a will. It will save you and your brother so much headache and heartache later on that IMO it's worth the effort. And you may be able to help in concrete ways, i.e. finding an attorney, getting him to an office visit, getting papers in front of him to sign, etc. Do you think if you and your brother approach him together and frame it as "please do this, it will be really helpful for us," that would help convince him?

I would drop the house cleanup efforts entirely. Getting hoarders to stop hoarding is nearly impossible; it's difficult even for trained mental health professionals. I think the only result will be headache and disappointment for you. As hard as it will be to go through it later, unfortunately it's probably the best option. And there are services that will clear out an entire house; my brother used one when he inherited a house from a borderline hoarder relative and it was a huge help.

I think it's important to add that if he won't clean up, you don't have to spend time in his house, or even set foot in it if you don't want to. Establishing boundaries based on his behavior is completely fine, and in fact I encourage it. Good luck to you.

[cjcouple]

My MIL is a hoarder and I "think" bipolar although she is not diagnosed. She has extreme highs and lows. I have made a few suggestions about getting rid of things because IMO its quite unsafe. There is literally pathways to walk through their trailer. If they ever had a fire, they wouldn't be able to get out because everything would collapse on their pathways. We can't do anything to fix it. We have offered to help and its all we can do.

[tarzanswife]

I agree with everyone else that you basically can't. I have been thru the ringer with my dad and it took him having to get hospitalized to get him the help he needed. He was stubborn and refused help and would not accept it until his body and mind failed him. Unfortunately I had to clean up the mess he left of his belongings and finances. But he is now in a better, safer environment and is being cared for properly. I would try to at least get financial power of attorney and start trying to understand his finances and get copies of insurance policies, finding out who his doctors are, how much he receives in social security, etc.. you can try to address the hoarding but that is usually a battle you won't win.

[minzy]

I am sorry. I am not quite in your shoes (my dad has a will with me as executor/POA and has finances somewhat in order and my stepmother keeps a good paper trail) but he is not in great health (though still sober after a bad fall this spring). As far as I can tell, he will be leaving my sister and me a huge physical and logistical sticky mess of his properties/stuff to deal with, and I somewhat preemptively resent that future burden which will compound the sorrow I will have when he dies. Whenever I’m back, I ask for details on where this is, and who is that with, and I record them in my phone. It’s disappointed my sister and me both at various times that he doesn’t really have his “shit together,” and that he’s not “more” (like our mother was/would have been, were she still alive), but he’s what we’ve got, and we just have to accept that he does not operate the same way we do/have. We know we are mostly powerless to change him, and we try to be grateful for the connections we do have with him, but it’s really tough sometimes. You are not alone.

[winecat]

I'm so sorry. My mom doesn't have substance abuse issues but other mental health issues and the hoarding. She got put into a rehab facility after she got bit by a dog and then had home health care; PT, OT, etc.. One of them reported her living situation to adult protective services. I was secretly thrilled because she will not change on her own. I was hoping that they could force her but since there wasn't abuse involved, not much happened. We cleaned out her house to do some work after a plumbing disaster and now it's worse than ever. It's a disaster. All I can suggest is to start saving so that you can hire help after he dies.

[raleighnc]

You've gotten a lot of good advice about everything, particularly the challenges around a transplant. I just want to reiterate that feeling like you should donate is not a sufficient reason to donate. My FIL donated a kidney to his sister in the early 90s (when he was in his 50s), and I know he wanted to do it and it gave her a few more years. However, my FIL developed unrelated heart issues that were complicated by only having one kidney, and struggled with those for 15 years before dying at 80. I know that generally living donation doesn't shorten your lifespan and I'm all for organ donation, but I would have a really hard time risking my future with my own family by donating to a candidate who has so many strikes against their odds of success. I'm sorry you have such a tough road ahead.

[livinitup]

My parents are about the same age as your dad, both smart, and well educated and absolutely refuse to put any of that paperwork in order. A few years ago, I badgered them (with both love & hostility) for 3 years to have them sign their will. They finallllly did and promptly refused to do anything else. I was hoping it would get the ball rolling, but no. My mom said it “made her feel bad”. They have nothing set up to protect their assets (like a trust), no wishes written down, nothing. I have stopped badgering them. When it comes up, because a great many of their friends have done or are doing these things, they always nod along and agree to do it, too. That’s their new tactic. They say it’s “smart” and needs to be done. They will “get right on it”. And don’t do a thing. At all. I have accepted that it will be much harder and more expensive (for the surviving spouse and me) to deal with everything they will need after a medical crisis or death. I have accepted that there is nothing I can do to “parent them”.

I’ve mostly accepted it, emotionally I’m about 95% okay and 5% bitter. But that’s okay. There is one BiG issue that I have angry
feelings about because it is unfair that they have actively ignored a big financial responsibility - which really isn’t about death and dying. They built an addition on their house 30 years ago and never got a CO (certificate of occupancy) from the county. Originally, it saved them money and they were “building to code anyway”. They cannot legally sell the house without the CO. And of course, building codes have changed in 30 years. About 10 years ago, they tried to get it, made upgrades and then stopped. I don’t know why. So, their most important asset cannot be sold without a big, tedious effort by me and my sibling. Someday.

I have pondered about why they continue to live in this suspended reality and have concluded 2 reasons:

1- They do not think they are going to die. I know this is irrational.
2- I think they also have an irrational belief system that if they do anything to prepare for a medical crisis/death - if anything is signed or in order- that it will trigger or cause their death. Like, the NEXT DAY after they set it up, they will die. So, by delaying putting anything in order, they are delaying own their death, too.

[fangoriagurkel]

dexteroni Setting boundaries pertaining to their house has absolutely done wonders for my mental health the last five or so years. I made the decision not to be alone with my father around that same time too, as his mental decline had led to his making increasingly sexual inappropriate jokes which made me quite uncomfortable. Thank God he never tried to touch me and it made me so sad that my entire family (both of his siblings and his long term girlfriend) were 100% on board with it. They gave me zero pushback because they knew awful he was becoming.

Their house has a terrible animal smell in it and it hits you as soon as you walk in. They have 4 cats and one dog (the maximum # of cats they’re allowed to have per their county code enforcement) and while the animals are fed and groomed, the cats aren’t the best at being litter box trained. It’s just a bad situation for all involved.