March Covid: lockdown anniversary edition

[tacokick]

Mar 25, 2023 9:58:54 GMT -5 mpm said:

Mar 25, 2023 9:50:51 GMT -5 tacokick said:

My dentist takes Covid very seriously and is always busy! So are my other doctors. I’m lucky to live in a place where a lot of people mask routinely and have a lot of hospitals/providers to chose from. I can only imagine in areas where this is rarer, a doctor or dentist could really fill the Covid careful niche and make bank.

I don’t belong to any Covid groups but it does come up in conversation and we all share which practices have some sense

And on the inverse, someone posted on our neighborhood message board asking which primary care offices are no longer wearing masks (because they like seeing smiles 🙄). My husband’s PCP was mentioned several times in response, so my husband isn’t going to waste his time calling his PCP to complain now that they’ve already changed their policies since his last visit; he’s just going to quietly look for a new doctor and in the meantime skip routine care until he finds one that has safety protocols he’s comfortable with.

Exactly! The push to put things back on the patient to endlessly complain and demand safety is tiresome.

I did have a doctor office contact me and ask why I hadn’t been in and I told them because they don’t require waiting room masks but I wouldn’t seek them out to tell them this.

[sent]

Mar 25, 2023 9:56:25 GMT -5 tacokick said:

You can make a little effort and read actual studies about the risks of Covid yourself. They are all around, many are even published by the CDC.

It’s strange to give random patients the same amount of credibility as infectious disease experts.

We are a bunch of internet strangers so I don't know if any of the posters who have responded are infectious disease experts. If anyone is, please let me know. From my point of view as a provider, there are patients demanding my attention every day for issues that are important to them and I only have so much time and energy to sift through everyone's evidence and give them the time they want while also addressing their teeth at the same appointment. 

Yes, I already made an effort and poked around on the ADA website to see if I missed anything big. I also went to the CDC website which doesn't have any obvious links I have found yet when searching for COVID precautions to take in the office. Since you're telling me the CDC has published more studies that would suggest going beyond the minimums they set for dental practices, I would have to dig deeper to find this evidence. I'll add it to the list of things I have to do to run the practice. That doesn't mean I don't think COVID is less important or not important but as I already wrote, there is only so much time, energy and effort I can give to fight all the fights and do all the research and keep the place running with competent and caring staff, not lose money, and get home to my family. 

[tacokick]

Mar 25, 2023 10:10:35 GMT -5 sent said:

Mar 25, 2023 9:56:25 GMT -5 tacokick said:

You can make a little effort and read actual studies about the risks of Covid yourself. They are all around, many are even published by the CDC.

It’s strange to give random patients the same amount of credibility as infectious disease experts.

We are a bunch of internet strangers so I don't know if any of the posters who have responded are infectious disease experts. If anyone is, please let me know. From my point of view as a provider, there are patients demanding my attention every day for issues that are important to them and I only have so much time and energy to sift through everyone's evidence and give them the time they want while also addressing their teeth at the same appointment. 

Yes, I already made an effort and poked around on the ADA website to see if I missed anything big. I also went to the CDC website which doesn't have any obvious links I have found yet when searching for COVID precautions to take in the office. Since you're telling me the CDC has published more studies that would suggest going beyond the minimums they set for dental practices, I would have to dig deeper to find this evidence. I'll add it to the list of things I have to do to run the practice. That doesn't mean I don't think COVID is less important or not important but as I already wrote, there is only so much time, energy and effort I can give to fight all the fights and do all the research and keep the place running with competent and caring staff, not lose money, and get home to my family. 

Obviously the infectious disease experts I am referring to are the ones who write the papers that are in scientific journals even the CDC references.

It’s very easy to Google information and the CDC site has a search function. Look it up. Or don’t. If you don’t have the energy to be concerned about patient health, that’s totally legal!

But put info on your website so your patients know how you feel about all this.

[sent]

Mar 25, 2023 10:05:16 GMT -5 curbsideprophet said:

What types of evidence do you want to see?

That Covid is airborne and remains in the air? That six feet does not magically make everything safe? That just talking is enough to generate aerosols?

www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/sars-cov-2-transmission.html



pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34446582/

I know these things.

There is a limit to how much above and beyond I can go to limit transmission and I do what I can within the limits of my physical space. 

You all can feel better for piling on me for the shortcomings of the profession's infection control minimums. 

[pixy0stix]

I'm putting this in the thread - I've been asked to ban sent by one poster. I do not support a ban, should I be consulted by ellie or y4m. She is indicating that she will research further, and she is providing explanations based on her expertise, and the recommended guidelines in her field.

www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/infectioncontrol/statement-COVID.html

[Bad Dingo]

Happy Saturday.

Regarding precautions in HC facilities, all mitigation measures were gone from my oncologist's office as of my most recent visit. Only me and the APRN were wearing masks. No temperature taking, air purifiers, questions about symptoms or exposure. It was demoralizing.

An aide sprayed lysol liberally in the exam room because she said the previous patient had a bad cough.

[seeyalater52]

Mar 25, 2023 10:26:04 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm putting this in the thread - I've been asked to ban sent by one poster. I do not support a ban, should I be consulted by ellie or y4m. She is indicating that she will research further, and she is providing explanations based on her expertise, and the recommended guidelines in her field.

www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/infectioncontrol/statement-COVID.html

I definitely don’t think sent should be banned. I also think she doesn’t need to be treated with kid gloves, especially given that her position in this discussion is extremely ableist.

Edit: that said I’m done bc this has become a massive waste of time so don’t worry.

[TR]

Mar 25, 2023 10:26:04 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm putting this in the thread - I've been asked to ban sent by one poster. I do not support a ban, should I be consulted by ellie or y4m. She is indicating that she will research further, and she is providing explanations based on her expertise, and the recommended guidelines in her field.

www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/infectioncontrol/statement-COVID.html

Oh my god ayfkm? Whoever did that, get a grip.

[mpm]

Mar 25, 2023 10:27:10 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Regarding precautions in HC facilities, all mitigation measures were gone from my oncologist's office as of my most recent visit. Only me and the APRN were wearing masks. No temperature taking, air purifiers, questions about symptoms or exposure. It was demoralizing.

An aide sprayed lysol liberally in the exam room because she said the previous patient had a bad cough.

I’m so sorry. 😔 My dad also sees an oncologist regularly. They’re no longer taking precautions either, and my mom said the doctor even pulled down his mask to talk to them at the last visit. My parents didn’t say anything, because they were worried they’d be dropped from the practice if they seemed “difficult” and based on what sent wrote above, they were probably right. It’s so sad that people who we go to for care are treating our health with such little regard.

And ftr, I wasn’t the one who asked for a ban. But I’m also done engaging. A lack of empathy that clearly runs that deep isn’t something I can change through an Internet forum.

[sent]

I had to look up the specific definition of ableist here since it's been mentioned more than once. "Discrimination based on disability" I then searched "Is COVID a disability" because I actually had not heard much about this. I found this on my state's page - "if you have any physical infirmity caused by COVID-19, that would qualify as a disability under the law."

The only way I would know if a patient has a physical infirmity caused by COVID-19 is if they write it on their medical history or inform us when they contact the office for their first appointment. From there, I can offer the patient an appropriate accommodation within my office. If I can't accommodate them, it is my obligation to refer them to another location that may be able to better accommodate their medical history but that's where my duty ends. If they don't tell us they have a physical infirmity when they come to the appointment, then I have to follow the minimum standards for infection control set by the profession and it is up to the patient to decide if that's good enough or not. Complain and name call all you want, but this is how it currently works in the US.

I also don't have a handicapped ramp to my office because the building is grandfathered in having been built before 1992. The township approves of my neighbor and I having our dental offices operate in this building. I don't have this noted on my website either. If a patient could not transfer from their wheelchair to enter my building, it is my obligation to refer them somewhere than can accommodate them and my obligation ends there. Does that also make me an ableist? PS I really don't care about the answer or what you think because I also think this accusation is absurd.

[pixy0stix]

So, by my understanding of ableism, the standard of care provided by most medical offices at this time IS ableist. Patients should not have to disclose their conditions as that is ableist by definition. Minimum standard should include that everyone is accommodated. The law re: not having a wheelchair ramp is also ableist, as again, the bare minimum of access should be that *everyone* should have access without disclosure.

[rubytue]

Mar 25, 2023 9:55:10 GMT -5 sent said:

Mar 25, 2023 9:35:55 GMT -5 mpm said:

I have dental insurance but would drive very far and be willing to pay quite a bit more OOP than my insurance reimbursement (easily 10x as much) for safe dental service. I don’t think I’m alone in that based on internet groups I’m in. (At one point there was even discussion amongst those same people about privately charting a jet to Germany to @ vaccinate our toddlers.) It’s bullshit that that kind of safety should be limited to those who can pay for it, but also since the economic argument was brought up, if someone wanted to make that a business model I do think they’d be able to find a very loyal patient base.

What you are describing is a minority of all dental patients in the US. And I think this already exists. You can look for holistic dentists.  They were using hepa filtration in their offices before that came on the scene post-COVID. Since what you are desiring is a small demographic, I have never looked into catering to this demographic specifically. The demographic where I am located wonders where the cheapest gas station is in town and not how to charter private jets to Germany.

Which do what you must do to keep your family safe, but this is a paragraph full of privilege if I ever read one.

You do realize that people can try to save pennies on gas in order to afford medical care, right? They also set up go fund me because our medial system is fucked.  It’s really something to say that paragraph was full of privilege while at the same time dismissing people a a demographic you don’t cater to. Like so many ableist things during the pandemic, it’s reeks of I just don’t want to deal with immunocompromised people. I know you have been reading these threads over the past few years, I’m sure you have seen people talking about how many in the patient community, and even many many medical and public health doctors feel the CDC had abandoned them. The switch from reporting community transmission to the nebulous “community levels” that is really pro-business, and saying you can leave isolation after 5 days, regardless of getting a negative test. These are but two examples.  But yet, I get what you are saying about following CDC. But, the research and information is out there, in these threads on this board, to do better. I don’t blame you for not, because the CDC has your back. But it’s the whole “🤷‍♀️ what else can I do, if you don’t like it go elsewhere” attitude that is ruffling people. You can do more. The information has been discussed at length.

Tangent - I just got my hair cut. And every stylist was wearing a mask. I was the only client who did. But anyway, I thought of this discussion. I feel for the people who cant get medical treatment in a masked environment, but I got my hair cut. 

[sent]

Mar 25, 2023 11:03:15 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

So, by my understanding of ableism, the standard of care provided by most medical offices at this time IS ableist. Patients should not have to disclose their conditions as that is ableist by definition. Minimum standard should include that everyone is accommodated. The law re: not having a wheelchair ramp is also ableist, as again, the bare minimum of access should be that *everyone* should have access without disclosure.

If I was forced to close my office because there is literally nowhere to put a ramp or because I could not afford whatever upgrades were being deemed mandatory for better COVID protections, I would finish or transfer my patients and be done with private practice. I'd find a new career that doesn't involve being a licensed dentist and operates with less regulations placed upon me. 

That said, I am this close to purchasing said building and do want to make some upgrades including adding the ramp in the future. I can look into updating the ventilation systems at that time too and add in a private room. So if I'm an ableist provider right now, I accept that. 

[sent]

Mar 25, 2023 11:12:07 GMT -5 rubytue said:

You do realize that people can try to save pennies on gas in order to afford medical care, right? They also set up go fund me because our medial system is fucked.  It’s really something to say that paragraph was full of privilege while at the same time dismissing people a a demographic you don’t cater to. Like so many ableist things during the pandemic, it’s reeks of I just don’t want to deal with immunocompromised people. I know you have been reading these threads over the past few years, I’m sure you have seen people talking about how many in the patient community, and even many many medical and public health doctors feel the CDC had abandoned them. The switch from reporting community transmission to the nebulous “community levels” that is really pro-business, and saying you can leave isolation after 5 days, regardless of getting a negative test. These are but two examples.  But yet, I get what you are saying about following CDC. But, the research and information is out there, in these threads on this board, to do better. I don’t blame you for not, because the CDC has your back. But it’s the whole “🤷‍♀️ what else can I do, if you don’t like it go elsewhere” attitude that is ruffling people. You can do more. The information has been discussed at length.

Tangent - I just got my hair cut. And every stylist was wearing a mask. I was the only client who did. But anyway, I thought of this discussion. I feel for the people who cant get medical treatment in a masked environment, but I got my hair cut. 

I appreciate you explanation as well as pixy0stix. Regarding the hair cuts, some people in my family also visit a place that requires everyone entering to be masked. I didn't think much of it and we continue to go there because this family member is very particular about visiting only this salon for reasons other than the mask. But they do have it up on their website. As I said earlier, it did not occur to me to add this kind of info to my website but for some reason connecting your hair cut story with the hair salon requirements of my family member, I can see why adding it doesn't hurt. 

[rubytue]

Mar 25, 2023 10:54:07 GMT -5 sent said:

I had to look up the specific definition of ableist here since it's been mentioned more than once. "Discrimination based on disability" I then searched "Is COVID a disability" because I actually had not heard much about this. I found this on my state's page - "if you have any physical infirmity caused by COVID-19, that would qualify as a disability under the law

no one is talking about COVID being the disability here. It’s the invisible disabilities that make one more susceptible to Covid, to not responding to vaccines, to severe outcomes. And to just say you don’t want to work with anyone in the demographic.. it read like that whole lock the immunocompromised away in their houses forever attitude. 

but like others have mentioned, I think you have ended up as todays punching bag for everyone frustrations. And I don’t thing you are doing anything wrong with how you run your practice. But, the CDC guidelines are a floor (like most any regulations), and there is room for improvement. 

[tacokick]

One thing that I don’t think people aren’t concerned with Covid don’t get is that they probably are seeing the effects of people taking it seriously but don’t realize it.

People are just opting out. They aren’t spending time publicizing why. For example, there are three conferences in 3 different industries I generally go to that sell out in minutes. This year they are “following local guidelines” and people just aren’t going. I’m getting daily emails begging people to attend, saying that sessions are going to be canceled if people don’t sign up, fees being waived, discounts on hotels and people aren’t biting.

Obviously I can’t speak for everyone but my entire niche group (except one) isn’t going to one because there are no food options that don’t involve being unmasked in a massive cafeteria, you room with strangers and they won’t guarantee windows being open or fans. This is a group that meets in person, many eat in restaurants etc but feel like this is just too much.

ETA We are in the group because of a common interest, we aren’t some political group or Covid meet up or anything like that. We largely have nothing else in common. The conference is a huge, huge deal (you have opportunities to take classes with world renowned artists and experts that rarely teach or travel) and held only every other year (it’s been 3 since the last one was supposed to be in 2020) so it’s especially striking that people are opting out.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 25, 2023 11:13:44 GMT -5 sent said:

Mar 25, 2023 11:03:15 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

So, by my understanding of ableism, the standard of care provided by most medical offices at this time IS ableist. Patients should not have to disclose their conditions as that is ableist by definition. Minimum standard should include that everyone is accommodated. The law re: not having a wheelchair ramp is also ableist, as again, the bare minimum of access should be that *everyone* should have access without disclosure.

If I was forced to close my office because there is literally nowhere to put a ramp or because I could not afford whatever upgrades were being deemed mandatory for better COVID protections, I would finish or transfer my patients and be done with private practice. I'd find a new career that doesn't involve being a licensed dentist and operates with less regulations placed upon me. 

That said, I am this close to purchasing said building and do want to make some upgrades including adding the ramp in the future. I can look into updating the ventilation systems at that time too and add in a private room. So if I'm an ableist provider right now, I accept that. 

I know you're still processing the information given to you, but this is why you're making people mad. You already make a lot of accommodations every day such as you do not racially discriminate, and you do not deny care to anyone if they reach out to you for accommodations that you can provide. But this comes across that you would have to close your business if you couldn't be ableist. Businesses close all the time because they are discriminatory. This type of discrimination currently just isn't widely recognized or enforced.

I think taking the time to process the information in the thread re: ableism might be beneficial.

[pixy0stix]

Also re: grandfathering by city law with the ramp - there are no grandfathering clauses to the ADA. Should you or your city be sued, all involved would most likely lose. City's/governmental entities in general play fast and loose with the law because the violations are vast and no one organization has resources to fight them all.


adata.org/faq/my-building-grandfathered-under-older-ada-standards-or-do-i-need-comply-new-2010-ada-standards#:~:text=The%20ADA%20does%20not%20have,and%20state%20and%20local%20governments.

[NewOrleans]

Mar 25, 2023 10:54:07 GMT -5 sent said:

I had to look up the specific definition of ableist here since it's been mentioned more than once. "Discrimination based on disability" I then searched "Is COVID a disability" because I actually had not heard much about this. I found this on my state's page - "if you have any physical infirmity caused by COVID-19, that would qualify as a disability under the law."

The only way I would know if a patient has a physical infirmity caused by COVID-19 is if they write it on their medical history or inform us when they contact the office for their first appointment. From there, I can offer the patient an appropriate accommodation within my office. If I can't accommodate them, it is my obligation to refer them to another location that may be able to better accommodate their medical history but that's where my duty ends. If they don't tell us they have a physical infirmity when they come to the appointment, then I have to follow the minimum standards for infection control set by the profession and it is up to the patient to decide if that's good enough or not. Complain and name call all you want, but this is how it currently works in the US.

I also don't have a handicapped ramp to my office because the building is grandfathered in having been built before 1992. The township approves of my neighbor and I having our dental offices operate in this building. I don't have this noted on my website either. If a patient could not transfer from their wheelchair to enter my building, it is my obligation to refer them somewhere than can accommodate them and my obligation ends there. Does that also make me an ableist? PS I really don't care about the answer or what you think because I also think this accusation is absurd.

1. The law is indeed ableist.
2. The country is ableist- correct. You are so close to getting it.
3. You are absolutely ableist.  Even if you weren’t popping off here and centering yourself, you would still be ableist, because like racism and sexism, you’ve been stewing in it your whole life, like all of us.  That’s the part that’s not your fault.

 But when you literally said you don’t think about people who aren’t young and healthy, and I point out in the simplest way possible that we are here and your comments erase us, you rolled your eyes.  You are committed to not re-thinking your overt or inadvertent ableism.  And when you say things like “it’s absurd to accuse me of ableism,” I hear the Karens in viral videos saying “I don’t have a racist bone in my body. I’m the least racist person.”  

[NewOrleans]

Mar 25, 2023 10:42:06 GMT -5 TR said:

Mar 25, 2023 10:26:04 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm putting this in the thread - I've been asked to ban sent by one poster. I do not support a ban, should I be consulted by ellie or y4m. She is indicating that she will research further, and she is providing explanations based on her expertise, and the recommended guidelines in her field.

www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/infectioncontrol/statement-COVID.html

Oh my god ayfkm? Whoever did that, get a grip.

I don’t think it’s wise to tell people it’s all in their head. We wouldn’t say that about people who feel like they’re experiencing other forms of marginalization. 

[pixy0stix]

Mar 25, 2023 12:11:23 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Mar 25, 2023 10:54:07 GMT -5 sent said:

I had to look up the specific definition of ableist here since it's been mentioned more than once. "Discrimination based on disability" I then searched "Is COVID a disability" because I actually had not heard much about this. I found this on my state's page - "if you have any physical infirmity caused by COVID-19, that would qualify as a disability under the law."

The only way I would know if a patient has a physical infirmity caused by COVID-19 is if they write it on their medical history or inform us when they contact the office for their first appointment. From there, I can offer the patient an appropriate accommodation within my office. If I can't accommodate them, it is my obligation to refer them to another location that may be able to better accommodate their medical history but that's where my duty ends. If they don't tell us they have a physical infirmity when they come to the appointment, then I have to follow the minimum standards for infection control set by the profession and it is up to the patient to decide if that's good enough or not. Complain and name call all you want, but this is how it currently works in the US.

I also don't have a handicapped ramp to my office because the building is grandfathered in having been built before 1992. The township approves of my neighbor and I having our dental offices operate in this building. I don't have this noted on my website either. If a patient could not transfer from their wheelchair to enter my building, it is my obligation to refer them somewhere than can accommodate them and my obligation ends there. Does that also make me an ableist? PS I really don't care about the answer or what you think because I also think this accusation is absurd.

1. The law is indeed ableist.
2. The country is ableist- correct. You are so close to getting it.
3. You are absolutely ableist.  Even if you weren’t popping off here and centering yourself, you would still be ableist, because like racism and sexism, you’ve been stewing in it your whole life, like all of us.  That’s the part that’s not your fault.

 But when you literally said you don’t think about people who aren’t young and healthy, and I point out in the simplest way possible that we are here and your comments erase us, you rolled your eyes.  You are committed to not re-thinking your overt or inadvertent ableism.  And when you say things like “it’s absurd to accuse me of ableism,” I hear the Karens in viral videos saying “I don’t have a racist bone in my body. I’m the least racist person.”  

Honestly, I think this is what is happening. She's never been introduced to the concept, nor has never applied the concept to herself. Such as, she's probably never considered that her hiring practices are inherently discriminatory as she would never be able to employ a dental hygienist with mobility impairments should they apply. Should one have wanted to apply, they would have self selected to not to as soon as they saw her building. Invisible disabilities are also another whole ball of wax.

[NewOrleans]

Mar 25, 2023 12:17:08 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 25, 2023 12:11:23 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

1. The law is indeed ableist.
2. The country is ableist- correct. You are so close to getting it.
3. You are absolutely ableist.  Even if you weren’t popping off here and centering yourself, you would still be ableist, because like racism and sexism, you’ve been stewing in it your whole life, like all of us.  That’s the part that’s not your fault.

 But when you literally said you don’t think about people who aren’t young and healthy, and I point out in the simplest way possible that we are here and your comments erase us, you rolled your eyes.  You are committed to not re-thinking your overt or inadvertent ableism.  And when you say things like “it’s absurd to accuse me of ableism,” I hear the Karens in viral videos saying “I don’t have a racist bone in my body. I’m the least racist person.”  

Honestly, I think this is what is happening. She's never been introduced to the concept, nor has never applied the concept to herself. Such as, she's probably never considered that her hiring practices are inherently discriminatory as she would never be able to employ a dental hygienist with mobility impairments should they apply. Should one have wanted to apply, they would have self selected to not to as soon as they saw her building. Invisible disabilities are also another whole ball of wax.

She has been introduced to it because we’ve been saying this for 3 years, but she does not even pretend to “listen and learn.”  

But I really appreciate your posts about the ADA, etc. Thanks for showing up. ☺️

[sent]

Mar 25, 2023 11:33:40 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 25, 2023 11:13:44 GMT -5 sent said:

If I was forced to close my office because there is literally nowhere to put a ramp or because I could not afford whatever upgrades were being deemed mandatory for better COVID protections, I would finish or transfer my patients and be done with private practice. I'd find a new career that doesn't involve being a licensed dentist and operates with less regulations placed upon me. 

That said, I am this close to purchasing said building and do want to make some upgrades including adding the ramp in the future. I can look into updating the ventilation systems at that time too and add in a private room. So if I'm an ableist provider right now, I accept that. 

I know you're still processing the information given to you, but this is why you're making people mad. You already make a lot of accommodations every day such as you do not racially discriminate, and you do not deny care to anyone if they reach out to you for accommodations that you can provide. But this comes across that you would have to close your business if you couldn't be ableist. Businesses close all the time because they are discriminatory. This type of discrimination currently just isn't widely recognized or enforced.

I think taking the time to process the information in the thread re: ableism might be beneficial.

I'd have to close my business because I would not want to absorb the extra financial burdens to meet the regulatory standards that were not present when I initially became a dentist. I could then either start over in a new space because that's what I'd have to do if I had to put in a ramp or a private room right now or I'd take it as an opportunity to bow out of private practice because it's a lot of work in general to operate one. I don't want to discriminate against any particular group receiving the healthcare they need but I also can retire from the profession if I choose because I'm getting this close to being tired of everything. 

Regarding the grandfathered in part, I don't know what the exact terminology is but I know that our town allows us to operate because the space has always been a dental practice since it was built in the 1950s. I have had to modify some things along the way when I've done interior construction to meet certain ADA standards and get township approvals. If was to open a new practice in a space that was not already a dental office and had no handicapped accessibility - like I was looking at the upstairs of a 1970s era split level building last year that used to be an insurance office - I'd have to devote I think 25% of the construction budget toward accessibility. There is some percent set by towns or the state, I forget exactly what it is. 

[NewOrleans]

Mar 25, 2023 11:25:10 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Mar 25, 2023 10:54:07 GMT -5 sent said:

I had to look up the specific definition of ableist here since it's been mentioned more than once. "Discrimination based on disability" I then searched "Is COVID a disability" because I actually had not heard much about this. I found this on my state's page - "if you have any physical infirmity caused by COVID-19, that would qualify as a disability under the law

no one is talking about COVID being the disability here. It’s the invisible disabilities that make one more susceptible to Covid, to not responding to vaccines, to severe outcomes. And to just say you don’t want to work with anyone in the demographic.. it read like that whole lock the immunocompromised away in their houses forever attitude. 

You mpm , seeyalater52, and tacokick are really doing the Lord’s work in here today.  Respect. 

[seeyalater52]

It’s important to note that towns/cities/states are not legally allowed to exempt businesses from a federal law. Federal law is a minimum standard and municipalities and states can rise above the standard but not below it. That said, as Pixy mentioned they often do not have enforcement authority over, working knowledge of, or resources to discipline every business that exists that is not complying. This is why the ADA is widely criticized for essentially requiring individual disabled people to initiate lawsuits to get public accommodations to comply with the law. It’s a lot of burden on disabled individuals to enforce those standards and as illustrated by this thread individual business owners and cities/towns do not necessarily have or give correct information about what is required.

I’ll say the same thing I say about any business that can’t comply with laws around minimum wage, discrimination, etc: if you cannot afford to operate in compliance with the law you should have no expectation to keep your business open/profitable.

I’d also argue, although it’s just my personal opinion, businesses should also strive to exist within ethical boundaries - and I see this as an ethical duty we should all take on - not unlike my view toward businesses that pay lowest legal minimum wage but deny their workers a fair and living wage because they don’t think they should have to go beyond a legal minimum.

Honestly the ADA stuff mentioned here is even more shocking and problematic than the original topic.

[sent]

Mar 25, 2023 11:25:10 GMT -5 rubytue said:

no one is talking about COVID being the disability here. It’s the invisible disabilities that make one more susceptible to Covid, to not responding to vaccines, to severe outcomes. And to just say you don’t want to work with anyone in the demographic.. it read like that whole lock the immunocompromised away in their houses forever attitude. 

I need to clarify something here. The demographic I am ignoring is not the immunocompromised and I have read all of your comments regarding that and changes I can make like my website. 

The demographic I am not pursuing when I read a post about "private jets" is the very wealthy with the means to seek care at higher standards than published. 

[rubytue]

Thank you, NewOrleans. I realize that I’ve evolved a lot in my thinking, especially since getting Covid. But, I think that was rationalizing that I’d come to accept that all I could do is mask for myself. So, I wouldn’t go out without my own N95, but my own thinking has evolved to masking for myself, no so much others. And, I think about where I was in the begging, and wow, it seems like I’ve done a 180. So, I do appreciate hearing that I haven’t completely gone off the rails. And please do continue to call me out when I cross the line. Because we all have some cognitive dissonance sometimes.

[rubytue]

Mar 25, 2023 13:00:34 GMT -5 sent said:

Mar 25, 2023 11:25:10 GMT -5 rubytue said:

no one is talking about COVID being the disability here. It’s the invisible disabilities that make one more susceptible to Covid, to not responding to vaccines, to severe outcomes. And to just say you don’t want to work with anyone in the demographic.. it read like that whole lock the immunocompromised away in their houses forever attitude. 

I need to clarify something here. The demographic I am ignoring is not the immunocompromised and I have read all of your comments regarding that and changes I can make like my website. 

The demographic I am not pursuing when I read a post about "private jets" is the very wealthy with the means to seek care at higher standards than published. 

But, I’m not sure that demographic is what you think. It was a group of people getting together, and it might be within reasonable reach of people in a large group. True, some privilege to consider, but I think you have internalized it as Uber wealthy, when it very well could be no more than the upper middle class that it paying for orthodontics for teenager. Economies of scale and all. 

[tacokick]

Mar 25, 2023 12:43:18 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

I’d also argue, although it’s just my personal opinion, businesses should also strive to exist within ethical boundaries - and I see this as an ethical duty we should all take on - not unlike my view toward businesses that pay lowest legal minimum wage but deny their workers a fair and living wage because they don’t think they should have to go beyond a legal minimum.

Yes. Personally, my husband and I are not overly concerned for ourselves, we aren’t in a high risk category but see it as a community health issue.

We don’t want to be part of the reason why other people can’t access medical care or feel uncomfortable leaving their homes. We mask, we prioritize events, activities and places that are Covid cautious and aware. We only go to doctors and dentists that do more than the bare minimum and understand infectious disease. These places care about other people and that’s the kind of place I want to give my time and money to. And you know what, when we do ask questions and mask places, we see other people masking too and these places keep precautions.

Literally why would anyone not want to help other people when it’s as easy as wearing a mask and turning on a fan? Opening a window? That way of thinking is unfathomable to me.

[erbear]

Mar 25, 2023 13:24:29 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Mar 25, 2023 12:43:18 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

I’d also argue, although it’s just my personal opinion, businesses should also strive to exist within ethical boundaries - and I see this as an ethical duty we should all take on - not unlike my view toward businesses that pay lowest legal minimum wage but deny their workers a fair and living wage because they don’t think they should have to go beyond a legal minimum.

Yes. Personally, my husband and I are not overly concerned for ourselves, we aren’t in a high risk category but see it as a community health issue.

We don’t want to be part of the reason why other people can’t access medical care or feel uncomfortable leaving their homes. We mask, we prioritize events, activities and places that are Covid cautious and aware. We only go to doctors and dentists that do more than the bare minimum and understand infectious disease. These places care about other people and that’s the kind of place I want to give my time and money to. And you know what, when we do ask questions and mask places, we see other people masking too and these places keep precautions.

Literally why would anyone not want to help other people when it’s as easy as wearing a mask and turning on a fan? Opening a window? That way of thinking is unfathomable to me.

The #1 thing I have learned during this pandemic is that many people do not give a shit about other people.