Who is hurt by those credit card perks?

[Poeticxpassion]

Mar 6, 2023 14:31:39 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

(Full disclosure: I only have cash on hand when I go to a dispensary, and it usually involves a bank trip before I go to withdraw cash.)

Sometimes I use cash and many times I use my card. Dispensary charges an extra $4.00 fee to use my card but they also have an ATM on the medical side that is $3.00.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 6, 2023 14:53:18 GMT -5 Poeticxpassion said:

Mar 6, 2023 14:31:39 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

(Full disclosure: I only have cash on hand when I go to a dispensary, and it usually involves a bank trip before I go to withdraw cash.)

Sometimes I use cash and many times I use my card. Dispensary charges an extra $4.00 fee to use my card but they also have an ATM on the medical side that is $3.00.

Here they don't/can't accept credit cards, and only recently started accepting debit cards for an extra fee (but I don't know what that markup is).

[kadams767]

Mar 6, 2023 14:57:25 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 6, 2023 14:53:18 GMT -5 Poeticxpassion said:

Sometimes I use cash and many times I use my card. Dispensary charges an extra $4.00 fee to use my card but they also have an ATM on the medical side that is $3.00.

Here they don't/can't accept credit cards, and only recently started accepting debit cards for an extra fee (but I don't know what that markup is).

Not sure you know the answer to this, but does this have to do with it not being legal federally and these businesses not being able to utilize banks either?

[pixy0stix]

Mar 6, 2023 15:13:45 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Mar 6, 2023 14:57:25 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Here they don't/can't accept credit cards, and only recently started accepting debit cards for an extra fee (but I don't know what that markup is).

Not sure you know the answer to this, but does this have to do with it not being legal federally and these businesses not being able to utilize banks either?

Yes, it's tied directly to this. 

[fortnightlily]

Mar 6, 2023 14:29:03 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Mar 6, 2023 14:22:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I have a lot of issues with this. Your (general) actions have a lot of impact on how our society functions. Global climate change? Directly related to the United States and our over-consumerism and general lifestyle. Child laborers being drafted into US based warehouses - directly related to our inability to accept that our food shelves will be empty because we don't have enough people to handle our consumption anymore. We can blame capitalism, but we are the ones that are keeping capitalism alive and kicking.

I was going to post something similar. This is a both/and situation - government should take action and we as individuals can choose not to support behavior that we deem unethical.

Yes, I guess I'm just having a hard time seeing why using a credit card would be inherently unethical. Credit cards companies could operate without predatory fees if they were required to do so. In theory a reasonably small fee for a business to accept credit cards would be offset by the increase in business by customers who want to pay with them for the convenience.

Like, fast-fashion is unethical because there's no way to produce a $2 shirt without labor exploitation, creating low-quality textiles is wasteful and bad for the environment, competition drives higher-quality brands out of business which perpetuates the race to the bottom, etc. In this case it's not consumer demand that's creating the pressure for them to jack up their interest rates and interchange fees. These rewards programs were just their latest way of trying to attract more business while passing off the costs because of their own greed. If every owner of a travel card canceled that card today I can't imagine we'd see companies lower their burden on small business and balance-carriers.

[konapoppy]

Mar 6, 2023 16:31:39 GMT -5 fortnightlily said:

Mar 6, 2023 14:29:03 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

I was going to post something similar. This is a both/and situation - government should take action and we as individuals can choose not to support behavior that we deem unethical.

Yes, I guess I'm just having a hard time seeing why using a credit card would be inherently unethical. Credit cards companies could operate without predatory fees if they were required to do so. In theory a reasonably small fee for a business to accept credit cards would be offset by the increase in business by customers who want to pay with them for the convenience.

Like, fast-fashion is unethical because there's no way to produce a $2 shirt without labor exploitation, creating low-quality textiles is wasteful and bad for the environment, competition drives higher-quality brands out of business which perpetuates the race to the bottom, etc. In this case it's not consumer demand that's creating the pressure for them to jack up their interest rates and interchange fees. These rewards programs were just their latest way of trying to attract more business while passing off the costs because of their own greed. If every owner of a travel card canceled that card today I can't imagine we'd see companies lower their burden on small business and balance-carriers.

We just had a thread on ML about people opening cards to just get the points and move on. So they are creating demand. With inflation no one is voluntarily reducing prices on anything, so you are right, that probably wouldn’t change. But they could find another way to compete that isn’t so costly to everyone.

[arehopsveggies]

I don’t have anything useful to add except I’d been credit card shopping and not loving the idea this week. My siblings were making fun of me for being the most money- conscious of all of us, but I still use a debit card for daily purchases because I don’t like the chance of not knowing exactly where my budget is at each point in the month. They were telling me I was throwing money away not using a points credit card…

[sent]

I spend a stupid amount of money each month through my business. I average about 1 offer every year for “churn” purposes but I really have zero guilt about it. I am paying giant corporations that don’t care to offer me a better price if I pay with something that isn’t a credit card so why not use the best rewards card I can find. I just opened 2 cards for the signup bonuses and I think I will do one more. Two of these 3 cards will net me $2k cash from Bank of America. Same bank that has also charged me over $4K in the past few months to qualify for a commercial mortgage with them. It’s basically playing hot potato at this point.

At the same time, my equipment repair people accept CC for repair invoices but not for equipment invoices. This has been their policy since I’ve been with them for over 12 years. Yesterday she sent an email asking if I could send a check for the repair invoice. I will. I get it.

Someone in once described CC miles and points as “couponing for the UMC.” Sounds accurate.

[Poppy]

There was a NYT article about a government-facilitated cashless payment system that was interesting: www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/business/india-digital-payments-upi.html?unlocked_article_code=oCJvvQUJUY47iuVu-6n_72wYsWZ-LX_PN6eYfiNLvTINfsLOEKsfMF6kjN08AHQ4SUGstpR7H5LKHNZQrqPAqu9xAHJakvEexKYyJfUCxZyNeoMP87UZhbk-ak-lZg97cvOii4wdTL6xPTLNxv6mNwzR7uNtrqGY-1zXxwbJWmWhOtSfQQNaBeIei1IxVZAr2L4ysDgEpj3gUA84o7ZwZGprNcYDwo1V-WgEger3u66-_BmiiY7auZF5_NOkjg1ggfepPwk55saGoBV0H0-qpH7grsbJa2YyPySkAcs00w6HvhRkjFXYCU9KnLuiRjYk4tIrFL--mm94S8SdqyR6QRtLpt1M&smid=url-share [gift link]

To me, solutions like this (government regulation or direct government involvement) are the optimal way to deal with these externality issues that arise from capitalism. There are so many similar issues with our society that I don't know how to deal with. I am really discouraged because I don't believe that opting out personally will have any actual impact, but I also don't really see a practical path for making an impact through advocacy or otherwise with the way our government operates. It's frustrating.

[Deleted]

Mar 6, 2023 22:33:18 GMT -5 arehopsveggies said:

I don’t have anything useful to add except I’d been credit card shopping and not loving the idea this week. My siblings were making fun of me for being the most money- conscious of all of us, but I still use a debit card for daily purchases because I don’t like the chance of not knowing exactly where my budget is at each point in the month. They were telling me I was throwing money away not using a points credit card…

I don't feel like it's anything to make fun of. But I would be terrified of using a debit card exclusively just because of the ramifications if/when there's a theft because it's my actual money versus disputing charges on a credit card.

[TR]

Mar 9, 2023 15:40:38 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

Mar 6, 2023 22:33:18 GMT -5 arehopsveggies said:

I don’t have anything useful to add except I’d been credit card shopping and not loving the idea this week. My siblings were making fun of me for being the most money- conscious of all of us, but I still use a debit card for daily purchases because I don’t like the chance of not knowing exactly where my budget is at each point in the month. They were telling me I was throwing money away not using a points credit card…

I don't feel like it's anything to make fun of. But I would be terrified of using a debit card exclusively just because of the ramifications if/when there's a theft because it's my actual money versus disputing charges on a credit card.

This. arehopsveggies, I understand the wanting to have such transparency with your budget, but you're at huge risk of losing a lot of money if your debit card is compromised vs. a credit card. At hte least, you should keep the minimum necessary in your checking account linked to the debit card and not have automatic overdraft transfer in place.

[Deleted]

Mar 9, 2023 15:59:26 GMT -5 TR said:

Mar 9, 2023 15:40:38 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

I don't feel like it's anything to make fun of. But I would be terrified of using a debit card exclusively just because of the ramifications if/when there's a theft because it's my actual money versus disputing charges on a credit card.

This. arehopsveggies , I understand the wanting to have such transparency with your budget, but you're at huge risk of losing a lot of money if your debit card is compromised vs. a credit card. At hte least, you should keep the minimum necessary in your checking account linked to the debit card and not have automatic overdraft transfer in place.

Such good advice.

I highly suggest watching the Cyber Pirates episode of Trafficked on Hulu. It is terrifying how cheap and easy it is for people to clone your accounts and the testimony from people impacted are heartbreaking.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 9, 2023 15:59:26 GMT -5 TR said:

Mar 9, 2023 15:40:38 GMT -5 @rebeccawelton said:

I don't feel like it's anything to make fun of. But I would be terrified of using a debit card exclusively just because of the ramifications if/when there's a theft because it's my actual money versus disputing charges on a credit card.

This. arehopsveggies , I understand the wanting to have such transparency with your budget, but you're at huge risk of losing a lot of money if your debit card is compromised vs. a credit card. At hte least, you should keep the minimum necessary in your checking account linked to the debit card and not have automatic overdraft transfer in place.

FWIW, I've had my debit card information stolen and it was immediately flagged by the bank, all charges were reversed, and it was all fixed immediately. Versus my credit card which we just dealt with that took a couple of months to get straightened out.

[TR]

Mar 9, 2023 16:27:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 9, 2023 15:59:26 GMT -5 TR said:

This. arehopsveggies , I understand the wanting to have such transparency with your budget, but you're at huge risk of losing a lot of money if your debit card is compromised vs. a credit card. At hte least, you should keep the minimum necessary in your checking account linked to the debit card and not have automatic overdraft transfer in place.

FWIW, I've had my debit card information stolen and it was immediately flagged by the bank, all charges were reversed, and it was all fixed immediately. Versus my credit card which we just dealt with that took a couple of months to get straightened out.

That is really awesome of your bank. I've just heard of people who had their entire checking accounts wiped out and either there was nothing they could do or they were out that money until it could be resolved. At least while the cc is figuring things out you still have money to pay bills.

[Deleted]

Mar 9, 2023 16:34:22 GMT -5 TR said:

Mar 9, 2023 16:27:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

FWIW, I've had my debit card information stolen and it was immediately flagged by the bank, all charges were reversed, and it was all fixed immediately. Versus my credit card which we just dealt with that took a couple of months to get straightened out.

That is really awesome of your bank. I've just heard of people who had their entire checking accounts wiped out and either there was nothing they could do or they were out that money until it could be resolved. At least while the cc is figuring things out you still have money to pay bills.

I agree. I know a few people who had to fight the bank because the bank didn't believe them.

[wanderingback]

Mar 9, 2023 16:27:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 9, 2023 15:59:26 GMT -5 TR said:

This. arehopsveggies , I understand the wanting to have such transparency with your budget, but you're at huge risk of losing a lot of money if your debit card is compromised vs. a credit card. At hte least, you should keep the minimum necessary in your checking account linked to the debit card and not have automatic overdraft transfer in place.

FWIW, I've had my debit card information stolen and it was immediately flagged by the bank, all charges were reversed, and it was all fixed immediately. Versus my credit card which we just dealt with that took a couple of months to get straightened out.

Yep, me too. I trust my bank (USAA). They refund all the money immediately and then do an investigation so they tell you it could be reversed if they somehow think you’re trying to scam them.
Accounts being compromised are just annoying overall even a credit card!

[pixy0stix]

Mar 9, 2023 16:34:22 GMT -5 TR said:

Mar 9, 2023 16:27:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

FWIW, I've had my debit card information stolen and it was immediately flagged by the bank, all charges were reversed, and it was all fixed immediately. Versus my credit card which we just dealt with that took a couple of months to get straightened out.

That is really awesome of your bank. I've just heard of people who had their entire checking accounts wiped out and either there was nothing they could do or they were out that money until it could be resolved. At least while the cc is figuring things out you still have money to pay bills.

Not unless they take the full payment before you catch that your cc was compromised (which is what happened to us). Luckily it didn't wipe us out, but it was touch and go over the holidays. All that to say, you can be seriously hurt whatever route you choose. There's no guarantee.

[okla]

I have a debit card with Bank of America for my personal spending and my H and I have a joint account at a local bank and I’ve never thought to be worried about using debit cards from either. I did have some fraudulent charges on my BOA account once, but I caught them quickly and got refunded, got a new card, etc.

I guess I didn’t realize a debit card is such a liability.

[lust2hart]

Mar 10, 2023 0:58:46 GMT -5 okla said:

I have a debit card with Bank of America for my personal spending and my H and I have a joint account at a local bank and I’ve never thought to be worried about using debit cards from either. I did have some fraudulent charges on my BOA account once, but I caught them quickly and got refunded, got a new card, etc.

I guess I didn’t realize a debit card is such a liability.

Anecdote and all, but DH and I have not used credit cards since 2016 with no issues.