My partner has been working at a job for three years.
The position was salaried and according to administration required minimal overtime (no more than 10 hours a week).
In the entire 3 years he has worked no less than 60 hours (usually 75) a week. This past week he’s worked 95 hours (he was forced to work overnights). He’s working 15 hour days most days and weekends. He was promised an assistant to help out. They didn’t hire one until 6 months ago.
If we calculate out the hours he works he makes less than minimum wage. He uses his personal phone and computer for work because they refuse to sign off on replacements for him and his are non-functioning.
They’ve been around 50 years. They’re federally funded. And they’re assholes.
He’s been looking for new work but the job market around here is trash.
It feels illegal honestly. But I’m struggling to find anything that indicates that.
Does anybody know if there is some sort of law against forcing an employee to work so many hours and telling them they have to because they’re salaried? Feels like bullshit to me.
I think that the first step is to make sure that he meets the duties test for exempt employees. A lot of people are mis-categorized and are salaried inappropriately.
Second, I would have him send him send a notification to his employer that, effective on X date (maybe next week to give them some time to accommodate), that it will no longer be possible for him to use his personal electronics for work purposes. If they push back, just keep repeating that it is "no longer possible".
95 hours/week is completely unsustainable, no matter the salary. Has he really laid out the number of hours that he is working to his employer? If so, is there HR or someone higher up the chain that he can bring into the conversation?
The federal definition for exempt/non exempt workers will apply. Is he at or below the salary threshold? Does his job description meet the standard for non-exempt workers? Is this a managerial role/does he supervise other workers?
Shitty employers run into all kinds of violations for mis-categorizing workers. That’s why we have rules that regulate pay and overtime pay requirements.
What would happen if he just ... doesn't? How are they forcing him to work? They actually schedule him for 75-95 hours?? (I'm not sure what the "forced to work overnights" means.)
You said he has an assistant for the past 6 months, so why have the hours gotten worse? (Referencing the 95 hours last week.) Did the responsibilities increase upon bringing on another person?
I think I would put something in writing (include HR if any) ... I'm no longer able to use my personal phone and computer for work and will need company-supplied technology. I would include a record of the hours he's been putting in and state that he'll be scaling back to working X hours/day and can be available from Y-Z time for emergencies. (Without knowing what he does/how this is being "forced" it's hard to say but bottom line I think he needs to start documenting stuff in writing.)
Would they really fire him? They're never going to find someone else to put in that time, not to mention the time I assume they'd need to train someone else.
My thought was the same as mokes . Does he think he'll get fired if he just signs off at a normal time and doesn't log in on weekends?
I should put in more hours at my job, but I don't. And feel comfortable telling someone if there's just no way something is going to get done in a certain time frame because of availability of my time.
The federal definition for exempt/non exempt workers will apply. Is he at or below the salary threshold? Does his job description meet the standard for non-exempt workers? Is this a managerial role/does he supervise other workers?
Shitty employers run into all kinds of violations for mis-categorizing workers. That’s why we have rules that regulate pay and overtime pay requirements.
He makes 70000 a year. Works in IT (and they won’t supply him work equipment) but is labeled a manager (although he didn’t manage anyone until they hired him an assistant.) They sometimes call him into meetings to ‘help’ make decisions (which I think is part of the duties tests.)
I also would look up some key words regarding personal usage of IT equipment and the liability they are opening themselves up to. And also stop using them for work.
I was going to ask if he was an accountant since we are in a busy season hell right now. Realistically, what would happen if he didn't work those hours. At an accounting firm, it would affect your review and potentially raise or bonus, but the industry is hurting for labor so if he had a good work product I don't think he'd be fired.
At least part of the answer is going to be him setting firmer boundaries which may be awkward at first, but necessary.
Since he works in IT, it’s worth noting that it’s a HUGE security violation/risk to have workers using their personal computers for work related issues, never mind 100% of work.
I worked for a shitty company for many years. (Also federally funded) It’s soul crushing. I offered thousands of solutions for the most basic issues/compliance violations/stupidity and it always fell on deaf ears. I wish I could offer hope.
The federal definition for exempt/non exempt workers will apply. Is he at or below the salary threshold? Does his job description meet the standard for non-exempt workers? Is this a managerial role/does he supervise other workers?
Shitty employers run into all kinds of violations for mis-categorizing workers. That’s why we have rules that regulate pay and overtime pay requirements.
He makes 70000 a year. Works in IT (and they won’t supply him work equipment) but is labeled a manager (although he didn’t manage anyone until they hired him an assistant.) They sometimes call him into meetings to ‘help’ make decisions (which I think is part of the duties tests.)
There was just an article about this yesterday. If I were him in this situation, I would push back hard. Like others have said, it's highly unlikely his company would be able to find a replacement who will work these hours for that salary.
What would happen if he just ... doesn't? How are they forcing him to work? They actually schedule him for 75-95 hours?? (I'm not sure what the "forced to work overnights" means.)
You said he has an assistant for the past 6 months, so why have the hours gotten worse? (Referencing the 95 hours last week.) Did the responsibilities increase upon bringing on another person?
I think I would put something in writing (include HR if any) ... I'm no longer able to use my personal phone and computer for work and will need company-supplied technology. I would include a record of the hours he's been putting in and state that he'll be scaling back to working X hours/day and can be available from Y-Z time for emergencies. (Without knowing what he does/how this is being "forced" it's hard to say but bottom line I think he needs to start documenting stuff in writing.)
Would they really fire him? They're never going to find someone else to put in that time, not to mention the time I assume they'd need to train someone else.
They’re working on a bunch of software transitions. He has to ‘supervise’ the people doing everything to make sure they are following confidentiality rules. They have to do this after business hours and it’s 8-10 hours of time. Over multiple days. That’s the 95 hours this past week. And it’s going to be a month long project.
He works in IT. It feels as though hours have gone up since they hired him an assistant. But his assistant ‘can’t’ work overtime because my partner made sure that he fell into duties/pay rates that kept them from making him exempt. So his assistant is hourly. His work would be cut down significantly if he could split time with his assistant. But he can’t. And he said if his assistant is not going to get paid for it he doesn’t want him to do it. Which is great on him considering his work load.
They would be insane to fire him. They’d be completely fucked. He developed their entire infrastructure. It would take someone years to train on it without him. His assistant does not have the knowledge or skill to be able to run everything smoothly if he left . But they would 100% fire him if he refused to do things/work extra hours. They are petty as hell.
I have told him he needs to demand some sort of raise to offset things, or say he’s leaving. He’s so stressed and it puts him in a terrible mood 99% of the time. I would rather he work retail and need to access state assistance until he found something else than deal with this. But he feels guilty doing something like that and not ‘appropriately providing for his family’. The hours are bullshit but he says he’d feel better working them if he was being fairly compensated.
It is honestly exhausting for everyone. I am pregnant. We have three kids. And I am the default parent 99% of the time (and work full time.) He works so much he can’t do much of anything. Our youngest is 2 and the other day he had to ask me how to give her a bath (does she sit? Does she lay down? How much water? . He works so many nights he’s never given her one.
I also would look up some key words regarding personal usage of IT equipment and the liability they are opening themselves up to. And also stop using them for work.
He has been tracking his hours and documenting everything he does to show the level of work he is putting in. His boss always says things about ‘the budget’ which I think is bullshit and it’s a buzzword to get people to stop asking for raises.
In the 3 years he’s been there he’s had one 1% raise.
leviosa , you're exactly right - he needs to set up a meeting with the biggest boss at the org ASAP and outline the unsustainability of the situation and outline his much more limited possible work hours going forward, or tell them they need to start paying him hourly. Unfortunately that's not something you can do for him.
leviosa , you're exactly right - he needs to set up a meeting with the biggest boss at the org ASAP and outline the unsustainability of the situation and outline his much more limited possible work hours going forward, or tell them they need to start paying him hourly. Unfortunately that's not something you can do for him.
I hope he has also applied to some other jobs?
Yes. He applies to 4 or 5 jobs a week. Competition in IT around here is rough.
I have told him multiple times that he needs to say something because this is not sustainable. Even 3 years has been too long.
He just says ‘I’ll stop complaining about it so it doesn’t stress you out.’ Except it’s the bad moods that stress me out. Not the complaining.
He needs to get out. Companies that will treat workers like this aren’t going to just be like “Sorry! Here’s a company phone and a computer and a 40-hour workweek!” because you had a meeting with the big boss. In the meantime, since you said it’s a tough market in your area, do just enough to not get fired until he can leave on his own volition.
I've seen someone just not in a situation like this. They told their boss they were taking a one week vacation, and when they came back they would not be doing X, Y, or Z tasks anymore, just focusing on A & B. It was a mess for the organization but that person didn't get fired. They won't get other high profile roles because they're not seen as "dependable" but honestly there wasn't any other role this person wanted, they preferred work-life balance and so they took it.
I'm not in IT, but I am in tech and occasionally have to support IT work. I also have friends who work primarily in IT. It's pretty common for IT work to need to take place outside of primary business hours. In my experience, if the IT work is taking place outside of business hours, those are the hours IT works that day. They do not also work during main business hours. It's completely bonkers to expect IT to work business hours AND after hours for a monthlong project.
I would be looking for a new job. Even if they meet some/ any of his demands- they will still be shit employers.
I work in IT for a university. Every job posting brings in so few resumes. Meaning - if he’s skilled at his job, and with the low number of people applying for certain jobs - he should be able to find something!!
Ah- just saw that IT jobs are hard in your area. What about looking for remote IT jobs then? That's part of the reason jobs at my employer don't get a ton of traction - we're not 100% remote and won't ever be (although I do WFH about 95% of the time).
I'm not in IT, but I am in tech and occasionally have to support IT work. I also have friends who work primarily in IT. It's pretty common for IT work to need to take place outside of primary business hours. In my experience, if the IT work is taking place outside of business hours, those are the hours IT works that day. They do not also work during main business hours. It's completely bonkers to expect IT to work business hours AND after hours for a monthlong project.
That’s what I think. It would be less problematic if he was working nights for a month. But working days, having two hours for dinner, and then working all night is ridiculous.
Ah- just saw that IT jobs are hard in your area. What about looking for remote IT jobs then? That's part of the reason jobs at my employer don't get a ton of traction - we're not 100% remote and won't ever be (although I do WFH about 95% of the time).
I told him to apply to anything that fits his abilities. All of our benefits are through me. So it’s not like we have to worry about healthcare coverage issues for a remote job out of state.
Hell, i’d rather he have to travel to some base location for a week a month than continue with this.
Post by thebreakfastclub on Mar 6, 2023 15:41:53 GMT -5
I would work 45 hours a week going forward, like right now. I would set up a meeting and talk about job duties and how to prioritize 45 hours a week of work.
And then I'd do my 45 hours. I might even have a weekly tb about the priorities and what I plan to focus on each week.
Control what you can control, which is not feeling guilted into 90 hours. It can start today.
Control what you can control, which is not feeling guilted into 90 hours. It can start today.
So much this. This company isn't going to change, no matter what conversations you have or documentation you bring. This is a bad company and they've shown you over and over. What you can control though is you. You don't have to work 95 hours a week. It's also not as easy just to fire people AND if it's he's as critical as you say he is, they aren't just going to haphazardly fire him. If they do, that's example 5000 that they are a bad company to work for.
All efforts at this point should go into finding a new job. Not working 95 hours a week.
So he is working, say, 9-5, taking a two hour break, then working 7pm-2 am?
I would consider sending a matter of fact email that says "Due to the launch of Project X, I will be shifting my hours this week to start work at 3 pm" or whatever hours he is willing to work.
They cannot think that working 9 am- 2 am is realistic for the length of the project. I know this is easy to say from behind my computer, but I would encourage him to get comfortable saying "that won't be possible" as many times as needed.
That would definitely be illegal in California. What state are you in? I would start looking at your state labor board. Actually first I would start with - is he a union member? They would be the first step. If not look at the labor board. See if you could meet with a pro-bono employment attorney first (your state or local bar association would have information on that). It's rarely ever just one employee affected by illegal labor practices. An attorney would be able to determine if you have a case and the more plaintiffs the more likely it is to succeed. Or at least scare the employer to get right.
I'm not an attorney but a CPA who has worked on many of these types of wage and hour labor cases and they never (in my experience with multiple claimants) have a defense verdict.
This is not my area of HR expertise, but my understanding is that it's technically legal according to the FLSA since he is exempt. At that base salary and responsibility level I would agree he's definitely going to be considered exempt.
However, it's a terrible employment practice and he needs to either leave or set some major boundaries. I don't think the FLSA means you can "force" someone to work that many hours. Is he super busy for all of them or is it a lot of just sitting around babysitting? Can he do his regular work while babysitting after hours? If so, I'd just tell his employer that those are going to be his working hours going forward until this project is done. It is unreasonable for them to object to that.
Is he actually documenting all of this time on a timesheet? If not, he needs to start. They may claim to be "unaware" of all of this extra time being put in but putting the actual time on a timesheet will show them how much he's working. I mean, they may not care, but they should.
Ultimately I think he needs to GTFO as soon as he can.
Ugh, that sounds awful, both for him and for you! My H works in healthcare IT and his hours have been insane for the last 4 months due to a bunch of upcoming go lives. It isn’t usually like this, I’m not sure what changed, but I’m getting resentful because all the house/childcare stuff is falling on me. If it had been like this for 3 years I would absolutely be having a serious talk about looking for a new job.
He sounds like the perfect candidate to explore “quiet quitting”. He needs to push back and also start job hunting asap. Unemployment is so low right now, I bet he could find something better if he can set aside the time to update his resume and start applying. Maybe he can take a vacation day to work on that (and also get a break!). Job hunting is a lot of work so I know it’s hard when he’s probably already exhausted, but this job sounds awful and I agree, they aren’t going to go from 75 hrs to 40. He’ll be lucky if he can scale it back to 60 and that’s still way too much for that salary.
So he is working, say, 9-5, taking a two hour break, then working 7pm-2 am?
I would consider sending a matter of fact email that says "Due to the launch of Project X, I will be shifting my hours this week to start work at 3 pm" or whatever hours he is willing to work.
They cannot think that working 9 am- 2 am is realistic for the length of the project. I know this is easy to say from behind my computer, but I would encourage him to get comfortable saying "that won't be possible" as many times as needed.
His employer is bullshit and I hate them.
Yes. 9-5 and then 7-2. Friday night was actually 7-4. Then he went back Saturday 3-3. And then he worked 7-2:30 on Sunday and was back to work at 7:30 this morning (and is still working at 5:15) and has already told me he will be working at least 4 hours tonight.
We are very different in the sense that I would have called this out by now. He’s too afraid to get fired. I would rather speak my mind and get fired, especially over something this extreme. I don’t like being taken advantage of like that. Neither does he. But he’s not loud about it.
So he is working, say, 9-5, taking a two hour break, then working 7pm-2 am?
I would consider sending a matter of fact email that says "Due to the launch of Project X, I will be shifting my hours this week to start work at 3 pm" or whatever hours he is willing to work.
They cannot think that working 9 am- 2 am is realistic for the length of the project. I know this is easy to say from behind my computer, but I would encourage him to get comfortable saying "that won't be possible" as many times as needed.
His employer is bullshit and I hate them.
Yes. 9-5 and then 7-2. Friday night was actually 7-4. Then he went back Saturday 3-3. And then he worked 7-2:30 on Sunday and was back to work at 7:30 this morning (and is still working at 5:15) and has already told me he will be working at least 4 hours tonight.
We are very different in the sense that I would have called this out by now. He’s too afraid to get fired. I would rather speak my mind and get fired, especially over something this extreme. I don’t like being taken advantage of like that. Neither does he. But he’s not loud about it.
If he’s working that many nights and weekends, he needs to start asking for comp days in return. That is pretty standard in IT, if you work all weekend you get a regular day off during the week without using PTO.
Those hours are insane and completely unsustainable!