Building a new school

[purplepenguin7]

My town is about to vote on building a new middle school, which houses grades 5-8. There were a few initial options but the one settled on for voting is to build a completely new school in the fields across the street from the current school, then knock down the old building a build new sports fields in that area.  Doing nothing was not an option as the school is 100 years old and in desperate need of repair. The entire project will raise taxes around $100 a month for 30 years, based on the average home in town. For reference we bought our house for $650k in 2022 and fall right in the middle/average. 

Others options that were turned down by the school board included rennovations to the exsisting school that would require the kids to learn in trailers for several years. These plans would still raise taxes anywhere from $50-75 a month so they were turned down in favor of a new school for slightly more. 

The project has a vocal group of detractors who don't want their taxes to go up at all.  From what I can tell, they tend to be older and likely don't have kids in the school system. 

I have a 4 year old daughter who will definitely be attending this school just a few years after the new school is ready.  I don't want my taxes go to up either but I feel slightly biased because I have a kid who will directly benefit from it. I also previously lived in a town where my taxes when up year after year with nothing to show so I feel used to a $100 increase and feel like, at least there is something coming out of it. 

Are there any downsides to building a brand new school?  Anything I should be taking into consideration when I vote?  The vote is either yes build or no go back to the drawing board. 

editing to add two things:
1) I live in an area with high taxes, the $100 montly is about an 8% increase
2) I didn't mean to sound flippant about my old town, I am sure they were doing something needed with the tax money even if not visible to the community. 

[imimahoney]

I work in a building that will be torn down next summer. Our new high school will be open Fall, 2024.

Between the age, general size and inadequate wiring/tech issues there was no way to effectively keep and update the existing building. It needed to go 20 years ago.

But as someone going into a new building I will say I am very unhappy with the new one. Number 1 reason being teachers will not have their own classrooms. I don't think many people understand how one's classroom becomes a part of your identity and how you teach. Pretty much ever teacher is dreading that part.

[Velar Fricative]

Old people voting down school budgets because they don't want their taxes going up is a tale as old as time. It happened often in my NYC suburb (and why I live within NYC now where the process is vastly different lol). So get used to the detractors, especially since schools typically take up the majority of one's property tax bill.

I would personally see no downsides to building a new school building to replace one that's 100 years old, but you can read the proposal/plan carefully and if anything gives you pause, you should ask questions. Personally, I'd want to know about the process for selecting a design and/or construction firm for this to make sure it's not like the superintendent's brother who gets to build the school or whatever. I'd also want to know how much input they'll solicit from school staff about what the building will look like - nothing worse than a design firm that thinks they know all about schools and push their vision onto the school staff. But I'm guessing almost all of those things won't be known unless the town votes yes anyway.

[devonpow]

This is the story of my life in my town lol. We have 8 k-8 schools and one large high school, and there’s a constant cycle of needing to rebuild/renovate schools. Some of these schools are 100 years old, they need it. We finished a huge high school expansion last year, one k-8 school is almost done (they are building the new one next to the old one and next year when new one is done they will demolish old one), and we have an override vote coming up this spring for the next k-8 school to be rebuilt (omg this school NEEDS it too). It’s super expensive to build in my town, we are urban so there is always drama and expense over moving students during renovations, etc.

No one wants their taxes to go up, but punishing schools isn’t the best way to avoid taxes. Schools are important and lack of space, technology, aporopriate rooms, functioning systems etc help NO ONE. People feel passionately about schools when their kids are there then conveniently forget and vote against them once their kids are out of the system.

In general I vote for all overrides for schools but have a critical voice in design - I don’t know how your town handles that. Are the new schools more environmentally sustainable? How will outdoor space be handled (omg that passionate hatred in my town of artificial vs natural playing fields. I cannot). Are they building to accommodate future growth? All those things are important to weigh in on if given a chance.

[sonrisa]

Mar 9, 2023 9:57:25 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Old people voting down school budgets because they don't want their taxes going up is a tale as old as time. 

Around here, people over a certain age are exempt from those assessments for just that reason. It sounds like it's an increase of $1,200 annually. That would definitely get push back around here. People get up in arms about a $100 annual assessment. 

[macmars45]

If the school district is to a point of putting a new school to vote than a new school is decades overdue. There will always be naysayers.

I attended the same high school as both my parents and all my aunts/uncles. The school district levied for a new high school starting when I was in Junior high. The levy finally passed and the school was built when I was in my late 20s.

[meanie]

Our town did this for the high school right after we moved here, and in the past year they completed a two new elementary schools. Similar to your town, we tore down the elementary school and built the new school behind it.

The main concern other than taxes was traffic, the street was already impassable during school drop off/pick up time so residents were looking for an opportunity to better address the flow of cars and buses into the school lot.

Our taxes went up a lot for the high school, less noticeably for the other schools. Our kids go to a private Catholic school so we get no benefit (yet), but the stories of insect and rodent infestations, peeling paint, etc were enough. The only one we didn't like was one of the elementary schools - they broke it up into two schools so kids go to one for 2 - 4 and then 5 - 6. It is a lot of moving around and seemed like a ridiculous waste of funds.

Our town is also big on town sports, so some of these plans included insanely fancy fields that were a big chunk of the budgets. I don't think our town teams are even THAT great, but you would think they were professional teams just looking at the equipment.

[mpm]

Our schools all have overflow trailers in front of them and 24+ kids per class. Do not recommend.

[simpsongal]

I pretty much just vote yes on school bonds and issues like that.  Hopefully they're building big enough - my old area built schools and within a year there were trailers for overflow. 

Property values may increase w/the nicer facilities, so there's another side benefit - less so to the older folks complaining since that in turn may raise their property taxes too.

Our property taxes have nearly doubled since we've lived here (up to $12K/yr) - I get anxious that the area isn't adequately planning for home values to flatline and that they're pricing families out of the area.

[maudefindlay]

A good, safe school benefits all in towns even the elderly and childless. I'll happily pay taxes and vote yes on school bonds till I can no longer push the button.

[bee20]

I live in an area that doesn't have 100 year old buildings and would be a little sad about losing it if it's beautiful, but I understand there may have been changes in teaching in the last 100 years that make a new building more practical.

My area has a bunch of 30-40 year old school buildings that are being torn down and rebuilt, and the main concern seems to be kids that end up in 3 buildings during their "career" at that school, and how to build a school community.  (I also have no children and pay the taxes for these rebuilds.  I'm glad they're finally getting to my local school for resale reasons, so there is some benefit to the older residents). 

[abs]

Mar 9, 2023 10:12:07 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Mar 9, 2023 9:57:25 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Old people voting down school budgets because they don't want their taxes going up is a tale as old as time. 

Around here, people over a certain age are exempt from those assessments for just that reason. It sounds like it's an increase of $1,200 annually. That would definitely get push back around here. People get up in arms about a $100 annual assessment. 

People over a certain age are exempt here, too, and they STILL vote no. Freaking old people.

[erbear]

This is how schools get built -- taxes. I'm not sure what the other answer is. If the town needs a new school building, the money has to come from somewhere, and everyone pays (it's to the benefit of the community to have well educated kids, even if you don't have a child yourself)

[purplepenguin7]

Mar 9, 2023 9:57:25 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Old people voting down school budgets because they don't want their taxes going up is a tale as old as time. It happened often in my NYC suburb (and why I live within NYC now where the process is vastly different lol). So get used to the detractors, especially since schools typically take up the majority of one's property tax bill.

I would personally see no downsides to building a new school building to replace one that's 100 years old, but you can read the proposal/plan carefully and if anything gives you pause, you should ask questions. Personally, I'd want to know about the process for selecting a design and/or construction firm for this to make sure it's not like the superintendent's brother who gets to build the school or whatever. I'd also want to know how much input they'll solicit from school staff about what the building will look like - nothing worse than a design firm that thinks they know all about schools and push their vision onto the school staff. But I'm guessing almost all of those things won't be known unless the town votes yes anyway.

thanks!  Of course I would expect detractors on anything but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything major on my vote. You make other good points, the design firm is already chosen and the drafts are available.  The company doesn't seem to have any direct ties to the school board/mayor/any one else...at least that is obvious at a first pass (meaning not the same last names or anything notable).  I don't know how much the school staff was involved in the design plans but I do know the Vice Principal is pro new build and giving tours of the school, pointing out the trouble areas. It seems he was at least part of the design.

[jobae1234]

Quality schools benefit the entire community. This includes the physical building. Older people conveniently forget who educates the doctors, nurses, and techs who will care for them in their old age. By and large, it’s their local community schools. Better facilities attract better teachers. Better facilities cause fewer distractions and hindrances to learning. They are just more pleasant to be in. They improve property value. Quality school buildings are important and they deserve financial support.

[steamboat185]

Building a new school that doesn’t impact learning seems like a huge bonus.

Not sure where you are, but the trailer classrooms can be a huge pain when transferring if there is weather. Most kids bring computers with them and if it’s storming it can be a huge pain. When my hometown high school was renovated they had students walk across the parking lot to an old building they used for extra classrooms. They had to extend passing periods as there was no way to make it in the 5 minute window (lost learning time), the teachers had to supervise the parking lot (security issues as there were construction workers, additional cars, and kids moving around), and kids would always find a way to cut classes (lost learning and increased truancy). The construction always lasts longer than predicted and frequently costs more (when they come across more issues in a renovation). There will probably also be increased traffic with both proposals, but I would assume renovations would cause more havoc as the construction vehicles would need parking.

[dancingirl21]

Part of owning a home is paying taxes to schools. People who vote no repeatedly because “I don’t have kids in the school” drive me insane. But you live where there are schools and you own a home, so you need to pay for schools. Our tax bill is around 74% to public schools - great!

I would vote yes. It impacts your child, but also the community as a whole will benefit. No one wants taxes to go up, but that’s how things like building new schools gets done.

[cereal K]

Mar 9, 2023 10:40:42 GMT -5 maudefindlay said:

A good, safe school benefits all in towns even the elderly and childless. I'll happily pay taxes and vote yes on school bonds till I can no longer push the button.

This right here, all day, every day. 

[purplepenguin7]

Mar 9, 2023 11:12:59 GMT -5 dancingirl21 said:

Part of owning a home is paying taxes to schools. People who vote no repeatedly because “I don’t have kids in the school” drive me insane. But you live where there are schools and you own a home, so you need to pay for schools. Our tax bill is around 74% to public schools - great!

I would vote yes. It impacts your child, but also the community as a whole will benefit. No one wants taxes to go up, but that’s how things like building new schools gets done.

their outward complaints aren't directly that they don't have kids in the school, but clicking around FB and profiles I can see they are either older, or have teenagers who are already past middle school age. I'm reading between the lines but it's pretty clear that the most vocal opposers don't have kids that will attend the school, for various reasons.  I found one dissenter who had a semi-valid point about the new plans but most were just "why should our taxes go up, they are already untainable". 

[janegold]

We also live in a town where many school buildings were 100+ years old, and where older, often more vocal residents continuously try to vote down school-related spending. We just built a brand new K-3 that my son is now in, and I'm so so happy we have it.

In our case, it may be true to that overall town spending could be better managed to allow for school improvements without raising taxes, but at the end of the day, a 100 year old building needs to be updated or replaced one way or another. That shouldn't really be a debatable topic.

[wildrice]

Oof. While I very much support public education and would likely ultimately vote yes to build a new one, raising taxes $1200 a year is a lot, especially for people who are seeing their incomes squeezed right now with inflation. I guess one could argue that you shouldn't own a house that is worth 650k if you can't afford a $1200 tax increase, though - I assume those at the lower end of the housing spectrum would be paying half or less that? Although the logical part of me knows supporting this would be the right thing to do, I can't deny that my initial thought was "I wouldn't want to pay $1200 more a year when I don't have nor will ever have kids attending the school".

This is why people should support more gradual increases - I am going to take a guess that there have been other opportunities to raise taxes and make improvements that were shot down, and so now the problem is bigger than it had to be and more costly. I grew up in a town that constantly voted against school improvements - meanwhile we'd have ceiling tiles falling on desks during class and a bunch of other less memorable issues because there were never any funds to make needed improvements. I think my HS is still standing but they eventually had to make some massive renovations that probably cost more than they would have had there been tax support all along.

[sugarbear1]

I will always support building new schools. $1,200 annually seems like a small price to pay for something that benefits the entire community (even the olds!).

Also, imimahoney, that sounds awful. I LOVE my classroom. Why are they doing that?

[Roc A Bee]

Mar 9, 2023 9:56:11 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

But as someone going into a new building I will say I am very unhappy with the new one. Number 1 reason being teachers will not have their own classrooms. I don't think many people understand how one's classroom becomes a part of your identity and how you teach. Pretty much ever teacher is dreading that part.

Oh this sucks so bad. My DH moved to a new school this year because they were doing some innovative things. But they also shared classrooms. It is awful. He hates it, and is looking to transfer back to his old school. It was really bad with his ADHD but also his sense of ‘home’ was never established and in his opinion, neither were the students’.

[CurlyQ284]

Mar 9, 2023 11:43:29 GMT -5 Roc A Bee said:

Mar 9, 2023 9:56:11 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

But as someone going into a new building I will say I am very unhappy with the new one. Number 1 reason being teachers will not have their own classrooms. I don't think many people understand how one's classroom becomes a part of your identity and how you teach. Pretty much ever teacher is dreading that part.

Oh this sucks so bad. My DH moved to a new school this year because they were doing some innovative things. But they also shared classrooms. It is awful. He hates it, and is looking to transfer back to his old school. It was really bad with his ADHD but also his sense of ‘home’ was never established and in his opinion, neither were the students’.

My son's school is like this. It's one big room divided in half by bookshelves. Sometimes they are tall, sometimes they are waist height. He also has ADHD. I hhhaaaaaaate it. Next year he moves up to a school with walls (although they have a door arch to another classroom but more closed off than now) and I'm excited to see if that goes better for him.

I thought this was a 70s dad, our schools are all old. Why are they building a NEW school like this? WTF?

[glw]

For the record, I'm childfree but always vote "yes" on whatever bonds show up on ballots for school repair and improvement.

Mar 9, 2023 10:54:52 GMT -5 erbear said:

This is how schools get built -- taxes. I'm not sure what the other answer is. If the town needs a new school building, the money has to come from somewhere, and everyone pays (it's to the benefit of the community to have well educated kids, even if you don't have a child yourself)

One thing my neighborhood has been pushing for is for developers to shoulder some of the cost. In my town, lots of developers are tearing down shopping centers and putting in apartment complexes, with no responsibility to support the local schools. Apartments mean more people which means more kids in schools that are already overfilled.

[Roc A Bee]

Mar 9, 2023 11:46:56 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

Mar 9, 2023 11:43:29 GMT -5 Roc A Bee said:

Oh this sucks so bad. My DH moved to a new school this year because they were doing some innovative things. But they also shared classrooms. It is awful. He hates it, and is looking to transfer back to his old school. It was really bad with his ADHD but also his sense of ‘home’ was never established and in his opinion, neither were the students’.

My son's school is like this. It's one big room divided in half by bookshelves. Sometimes they are tall, sometimes they are waist height. He also has ADHD. I hhhaaaaaaate it. Next year he moves up to a school with walls (although they have a door arch to another classroom but more closed off than now) and I'm excited to see if that goes better for him.

I thought this was a 70s dad, our schools are all old. Why are they building a NEW school like this? WTF?

It’s cost saving. They build schools with fewer room and then build one work room for teachers to work in during their prep. That way every classroom is used every period. No room is ever empty. But there’s so many negative impacts to faculty. The new school seems to be full of brand new teachers because no one with any experience wants to go to this system.

[penguingrrl]

My town just had a similar referendum. Our district has two buildings, one is a K-4 building from the early 1950s and one is a 5-8 building from 1935. Both are in desperate need of work due to still having asbestos floor tiles and aging roofs and hvac systems, plus in some classrooms they still have the same carpet as when I was a kid (ewwww).

Our regional HS also had a referendum in the past few years to build more classroom space. It was also long overdue.

The tactic that worked in getting both passed was reminding folks that the quality of their schools directly impacts their home values. It’s a truly fucked up system and that shouldn’t be the case, but in a very red part of a blue state (NJ) it got us the votes we needed to pass both referendums.

When I was a kid a referendum to add on to the middle school building failed. They then had to do the same work within 10 years for a LOT more money. Enough folks in town remembered that to vote in favor as well. In the end voting down the original referendum was a lot more expensive.

[Velar Fricative]

Mar 9, 2023 10:33:43 GMT -5 simpsongal said:

Our property taxes have nearly doubled since we've lived here (up to $12K/yr) - I get anxious that the area isn't adequately planning for home values to flatline and that they're pricing families out of the area.

Sadly, and I’m sure everyone realizes this, but that’s by design. This is why I have no sympathy for the old people who will vote down tax increases no matter what, especially because in my state, they do get exemptions on their property taxes - they moved to suburbs for “good schools” and “small town life where the neighbors are all friends” and so their kids wouldn’t be around “city kids,” and the high taxes kept the “undesirables” out. And they’ve stuck around despite their kids graduating for the same reason, but since they don’t need the schools anymore, they vote down the increases because at least taxes are still high enough to continue keeping the undesirables out.

Look, I don’t believe every single school budget should be approved but one of the two school buildings that make up my kids’ school is 100 years old as well so I know there are only so many bandaid solutions before you just have to knock the damn building down (though I think ours is landmarked, but it still shouldn’t be a school building for much longer).

[whattheheck]

Mar 9, 2023 11:50:16 GMT -5 Roc A Bee said:

Mar 9, 2023 11:46:56 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

My son's school is like this. It's one big room divided in half by bookshelves. Sometimes they are tall, sometimes they are waist height. He also has ADHD. I hhhaaaaaaate it. Next year he moves up to a school with walls (although they have a door arch to another classroom but more closed off than now) and I'm excited to see if that goes better for him.

I thought this was a 70s dad, our schools are all old. Why are they building a NEW school like this? WTF?

It’s cost saving. They build schools with fewer room and then build one work room for teachers to work in during their prep. That way every classroom is used every period. No room is ever empty. But there’s so many negative impacts to faculty. The new school seems to be full of brand new teachers because no one with any experience wants to go to this system.

Just out of curiosity bc I genuinely don’t know - is this cost saving offset by an increase in fuel/heat costs? I cannot imagine heating one big space costs the same as heating individual rooms where you can close the doors and keep the heat in. In the building I work in the classrooms are a reasonable temperature but the hallways and cafeteria are freezing (in the winter). And how is that large of a space efficiently cooled or air circulated effectively during the hot months?

[Doggy Mommy]

My district is bigger, but we also have a hard time passing tax increases for schools because of old people and people who will never vote to increase any tax at all ever for any reason. Our last one had 2 measures (mill levy and bond)
and for both it would have cost $52 a year per $100,000 of home value. The average home value is around 700k, so $364 a year. They would have built 3 new schools and given staff an average 9% raise. They both failed. I think your district is facing a huge uphill battle to pass a $1200 a year increase. I would still vote yes but I know a lot of people who wouldn't.