Anyone following the bank failure

[tacokick]

Mar 11, 2023 12:16:06 GMT -5 steamboat185 said:

Mar 11, 2023 11:12:08 GMT -5 tacokick said:

I guess?

I don’t know why they all seem surprised and upset that the money is lost. If your money isn’t insured than that’s the risk. Isn’t part of running a billion dollar company avoiding losing all of your money?

Roku is a company that lost money. They are a billion dollar company and probably have a massive payroll. Setting payroll to come from that many banks (20 plus) would be a nightmare. They would wipe the funds out and have to replace them weekly. What if some teams had more overtime than expected? The company would constantly be having to change which people get paid from each bank and the chance at making mistakes would increase with the complexity of the arrangement.

It just isn’t practical for large scale operations.

Roku seems like they did lose money but not more than they could handle. Only about a quarter of their money was there and according to them they can continue operations as usual. Which seems like they were being reasonably sensible. Other companies seemed to have all or most of their assets in the bank and are now in danger of going under.

I think it does sound complicated and horrible to juggle, but what seems strange to me that you wouldn’t then devote a team to managing it or to at least consider what happens if your bank goes under and how much you can afford to lose and keep going. Instead these people are giving interviews where they seem flummoxed that their money is gone and their company in ruins.

Throwing up your hands and saying well, it’s too hard to manage all this money so I’m not going to try and am going to dump all of my millions in unsecured accounts at one bank seems like an odd (but apparently popular) stance take when your only goal as a company is to make money.

[tacokick]

Mar 11, 2023 12:46:08 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Mar 11, 2023 12:20:19 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Just to clarify, these aren’t necessarily uber-wealthy people in the sense you’re thinking. These are startup founders who’ve raised VC money. SVB primarily served businesses, not individuals.

I also think there’s some naivety in this thread about how companies move large sums of money around. Do you think every one of your employers keeps its payroll in hundreds (or thousands?) of FDIC-insured accounts?

We should all know already that the entire banking system is a house of cards that does not care about protecting the average worker’s paycheck.

Ok so large companies and businesses do not typically separate their funds in to hundreds of banks to stay under the $250,000 insured limit? That’s what I would’ve thought but then some people in this thread are saying otherwise!

The idea is to conduct risk assessments and spread it around enough that you can absorb any loses and not go under if one bank folds. Some of these companies had all or most of their assets in this one bank and now the vast majority of that money is gone and may never be recovered.

[acuore]

Mar 11, 2023 13:03:41 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Mar 11, 2023 12:16:06 GMT -5 steamboat185 said:

Roku is a company that lost money. They are a billion dollar company and probably have a massive payroll. Setting payroll to come from that many banks (20 plus) would be a nightmare. They would wipe the funds out and have to replace them weekly. What if some teams had more overtime than expected? The company would constantly be having to change which people get paid from each bank and the chance at making mistakes would increase with the complexity of the arrangement.

It just isn’t practical for large scale operations.

Roku seems like they did lose money but not more than they could handle. Only about a quarter of their money was there and according to them they can continue operations as usual. Which seems like they were being reasonably sensible. Other companies seemed to have all or most of their assets in the bank and are now in danger of going under.

I think it does sound complicated and horrible to juggle, but what seems strange to me that you wouldn’t then devote a team to managing it or to at least consider what happens if your bank goes under and how much you can afford to lose and keep going. Instead these people are giving interviews where they seem flummoxed that their money is gone and their company in ruins.

Throwing up your hands and saying well, it’s too hard to manage all this money so I’m not going to try and am going to dump all of my millions in unsecured accounts at one bank seems like an odd (but apparently popular) stance take when your only goal as a company is to make money.

My guess is that the very big companies (like Roku) do in fact have their cash spread out over at least a handful of banks. But imagine a smaller start up, where you might have some kids in their 20s who are very tech-savvy but without any actual experience running a business, who suddenly get $50 million from a VC. They are likely focused on the product they are making, not on the nuts and bolts of company operations. Should they have thought about, or hired people to think about, rare risks like their bank collapsing? Yes, but I can easily see how they might not. Frankly, Silicon Valley VCs have been throwing tons of money around willy-nilly at all sorts of grossly inexperienced people for years (think Elizabeth Holmes). It’s not surprising a lot of them don’t adhere to best business practices. 

[wanderingback]

Mar 11, 2023 13:10:04 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Mar 11, 2023 12:46:08 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Ok so large companies and businesses do not typically separate their funds in to hundreds of banks to stay under the $250,000 insured limit? That’s what I would’ve thought but then some people in this thread are saying otherwise!

The idea is to conduct risk assessments and spread it around enough that you can absorb any loses and not go under if one bank folds. Some of these companies had all or most of their assets in this one bank and now the vast majority of that money is gone and may never be recovered.

Oh yes I agree I would assume there would be some diversification, like a couple banks. But your first quote that I replied to asked "Maybe I am missing something but why don’t these millionaire business owners/businesses have the money diversified or whatever so it is insured?"

And the only way it would be insured (from my understanding) is if each account only had $250,000. So that’s why I never thought large businesses would have their accounts in hundreds of banks. Diversification yes, all money insured no (based on what others have now said).

[goldengirlz]

Mar 11, 2023 11:01:23 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

while I anticipated crypto crashing and burning from its inception, I was naive about how wide ranging the destruction would be.

Locally, this is causing a stir, and on the heels of other rough news since the fall.

I think the impact could be very difficult locally. One thing that I think is hard to convey in the news coverage is just what a huge player they were here. I get why people are asking, “How could founders not have known any better?” but this was also THE bank for tech startups and VCs. It’s the same reason people invested their entire life savings with someone like Madoff: reputation. But I hate to even use the Madoff analogy, because we’re not even talking about a fly-by-night operation, but a 40-year-old global banking giant with deep community ties.

The questions are fair, and I hope there are lessons learned for the future, but the answer is probably pretty simplistic.

[tacokick]

Mar 11, 2023 13:30:20 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Mar 11, 2023 13:10:04 GMT -5 tacokick said:

The idea is to conduct risk assessments and spread it around enough that you can absorb any loses and not go under if one bank folds. Some of these companies had all or most of their assets in this one bank and now the vast majority of that money is gone and may never be recovered.

Oh yes I agree I would assume there would be some diversification, like a couple banks. But your first quote that I replied to asked "Maybe I am missing something but why don’t these millionaire business owners/businesses have the money diversified or whatever so it is insured?"

And the only way it would be insured (from my understanding) is if each account only had $250,000. So that’s why I never thought large businesses would have their accounts in hundreds of banks. Diversification yes, all money insured no (based on what others have now said).

Oh, I see! I didn’t realize you took that so literally!

What was strange to me is that so many of these companies seemingly had all of their money in this particular bank. This isn’t just one fly by night company that’s having issues, it’s many big companies making the exact same bad decision at the exact same bank. I thought perhaps there was some attraction to this particular bank that made them all want to take that risk that I was “missing”.

That is a horrible business discussion at any scale. There are times when even better run businesses might have “too much” money in one place or have a lot of money there for what is supposed to be a short time but then something like this happens and they are “stuck”.

You can be insured for a lot more than $250k at any single bank by having a variety of accounts and accounts under different combinations of ownerships. The cap isn’t a flat $250k per bank so companies could have many times that in one bank and still be insured.

Many businesses do take steps so all of their money is insured because they know they cannot survive a bank failure. A lot of these companies apparently decided to roll the dice instead.

[sakoro]

Mar 11, 2023 12:14:18 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Mar 11, 2023 11:03:26 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Maybe I am missing something but why don’t these millionaire business owners/businesses have the money diversified or whatever so it is insured? Something?

I opened an account (with 5k in grant money) recently and they told me of the limit and what it meant/ways to increase the cap (having someone else on the account etc). Why is a big company like Roku seemingly surprised by this? Has no one on staff ever even done personal banking before? Do they not have financial advisors? Wouldn’t preventing something like this be a large part of their job?

The only thing I can think of is that they may have to just move around so much money so often that $250k is not nearly enough for their needs. 

I read that SVB forced companies to move all of their money over to them in order to qualify for loans.

[sent]

Who exactly is in trouble here? Im picturing a bunch of pedigreed tech bros and gals that could find work doing something else even if they lost millions and their companies go under. Being able to have access to venture capital money seems to only happen if you are connected and privileged. Anytime I hear “startup” and “venture capital,” I don’t picture a little Main Street level boot-strappy business that is clearly starting with nothing.

Tell me if I’m wrong and it’s instead thousands? millions? of regular middle class and lower middle class people with less transferable skills that have families and are suddenly facing filing for unemployment in an HCOL part of California.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 11, 2023 17:16:51 GMT -5 sent said:

Who exactly is in trouble here? Im picturing a bunch of pedigreed tech bros and gals that could find work doing something else even if they lost millions and their companies go under. Being able to have access to venture capital money seems to only happen if you are connected and privileged. Anytime I hear “startup” and “venture capital,” I don’t picture a little Main Street level boot-strappy business that is clearly starting with nothing.

Tell me if I’m wrong and it’s instead thousands? millions? of regular middle class and lower middle class people with less transferable skills that have families and are suddenly facing filing for unemployment in an HCOL part of California.

Well, anyone with money waiting to be paid out from their Etsy stores may be screwed.

ETA - www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/etsy-delays-payments-sellers-due-silicon-valley-bank-collapse-rcna74475

[pixy0stix]

Worldwide implications - finance.yahoo.com/news/svb-fallout-spreads-around-world-154331383.html

[tacokick]

Mar 11, 2023 17:11:37 GMT -5 sakoro said:

Mar 11, 2023 12:14:18 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

The only thing I can think of is that they may have to just move around so much money so often that $250k is not nearly enough for their needs. 

I read that SVB forced companies to move all of their money over to them in order to qualify for loans.

Oooh! That’s the missing piece I couldn’t figure out!

[dreamcrisp1]

Mar 11, 2023 17:16:51 GMT -5 sent said:

Who exactly is in trouble here? Im picturing a bunch of pedigreed tech bros and gals that could find work doing something else even if they lost millions and their companies go under. Being able to have access to venture capital money seems to only happen if you are connected and privileged. Anytime I hear “startup” and “venture capital,” I don’t picture a little Main Street level boot-strappy business that is clearly starting with nothing.

Tell me if I’m wrong and it’s instead thousands? millions? of regular middle class and lower middle class people with less transferable skills that have families and are suddenly facing filing for unemployment in an HCOL part of California.

I’m not in the US but the company I work for is a tech start up. We are still bootstrapped but working with investors now for funding. But we’re picky and only want investors that align with our mission and values. So any tech start-up with VC could have been like ours - once bootstrapped and now with funding. It’s not at all true that access to VC money (at least here) is only for connected and privileged. Maybe a majority but not all.

[sent]

Mar 11, 2023 18:08:39 GMT -5 dreamcrisp1 said:

Mar 11, 2023 17:16:51 GMT -5 sent said:

Who exactly is in trouble here? Im picturing a bunch of pedigreed tech bros and gals that could find work doing something else even if they lost millions and their companies go under. Being able to have access to venture capital money seems to only happen if you are connected and privileged. Anytime I hear “startup” and “venture capital,” I don’t picture a little Main Street level boot-strappy business that is clearly starting with nothing.

Tell me if I’m wrong and it’s instead thousands? millions? of regular middle class and lower middle class people with less transferable skills that have families and are suddenly facing filing for unemployment in an HCOL part of California.

I’m not in the US but the company I work for is a tech start up. We are still bootstrapped but working with investors now for funding. But we’re picky and only want investors that align with our mission and values. So any tech start-up with VC could have been like ours - once bootstrapped and now with funding. It’s not at all true that access to VC money (at least here) is only for connected and privileged. Maybe a majority but not all.

I should have specified the USA then. I’m jaded because VC money has only ruined things in my field and it’s only the well connected that would even know how to access VC money. I have lots of business ideas but have zero clue how to get VC funding. A lot of us in private practice are wondering if this is the first domino to fall because VC money has been buying up private practices right and left and leaving the rest of us in the dust with our regular-bank loan boot straps.

[goldengirlz]

Mar 11, 2023 18:22:45 GMT -5 sent said:

Mar 11, 2023 18:08:39 GMT -5 dreamcrisp1 said:

I’m not in the US but the company I work for is a tech start up. We are still bootstrapped but working with investors now for funding. But we’re picky and only want investors that align with our mission and values. So any tech start-up with VC could have been like ours - once bootstrapped and now with funding. It’s not at all true that access to VC money (at least here) is only for connected and privileged. Maybe a majority but not all.

I should have specified the USA then. I’m jaded because VC money has only ruined things in my field and it’s only the well connected that would even know how to access VC money. I have lots of business ideas but have zero clue how to get VC funding. A lot of us in private practice are wondering if this is the first domino to fall because VC money has been buying up private practices right and left and leaving the rest of us in the dust with our regular-bank loan boot straps.

But those people who have access to VC funding then employ regular people, just like any company. And those employees are not all engineers either. And now they may not get paid.

Then there’s the ripple effect on the broader economy — hundreds of billions in assets now tied up in limbo. We joke about “trickle down economics” but a lot of regular people got hurt in the ‘08-09 financial crisis too, not just finance bros.

[arehopsveggies]

@@@@@@@
(Edit- I am so sorry I forgot to @@@)

I first read about it from the Slumberkins site… which doesn’t seem like a huge company that can afford to lose a ton. The company posted large coupon codes to try and move stock fast.
Slumberkins brand has taken off a little in the last year with its Apple TV show, but still isn’t a brand most people have heard of.

(I use a ton of their free materials for educators as SEL supports in my classroom… I should probably order my class some more of the books this week…)

[krystee]

@
I just ordered a Slumberkins for an Easter basket after reading they’d had all their cash at that bank. AKidsCo, which publishes all of those books like A Kids Book About Racism or A Kids Book About Being Transgender, also has their money there, if you’re looking for some companies to support!

[dirtyred]

Mar 11, 2023 11:37:19 GMT -5 acuore said:

Mar 11, 2023 11:03:26 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Maybe I am missing something but why don’t these millionaire business owners/businesses have the money diversified or whatever so it is insured? Something?

I opened an account (with 5k in grant money) recently and they told me of the limit and what it meant/ways to increase the cap (having someone else on the account etc). Why is a big company like Roku seemingly surprised by this? Has no one on staff ever even done personal banking before? Do they not have financial advisors? Wouldn’t preventing something like this be a large part of their job?

SVB held deposits primarily for start ups, not mom-and-pop small businesses or individual clients. $250,000 is a drop in the bucket for these companies. If they have 10,000,000 in funds (or 100,000,000) it’s really not feasible to split it into 40 (or 400) different accounts. At any rate, I’m not too concerned about wider contagion - SVP made some very poor decisions (especially considering the slowdown in tech has been coming for a good while). They should have known they would have significantly higher withdrawals of deposits in this environment than over the last couple or years, and prepared accordingly. 

But you could divide that into two or three banks, depending on your deposits/ withdrawls

[sent]

Mar 11, 2023 18:33:59 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Mar 11, 2023 18:22:45 GMT -5 sent said:

I should have specified the USA then. I’m jaded because VC money has only ruined things in my field and it’s only the well connected that would even know how to access VC money. I have lots of business ideas but have zero clue how to get VC funding. A lot of us in private practice are wondering if this is the first domino to fall because VC money has been buying up private practices right and left and leaving the rest of us in the dust with our regular-bank loan boot straps.

But those people who have access to VC funding then employ regular people, just like any company. And those employees are not all engineers either. And now they may not get paid.

Then there’s the ripple effect on the broader economy — hundreds of billions in assets now tied up in limbo. We joke about “trickle down economics” but a lot of regular people got hurt in the ‘08-09 financial crisis too, not just finance bros.

I'm sure there are good companies that have come out of VC, but we all know Theranos and other bad ones that did nothing of substance, even if they employed regular people. 

When we are talking about access to millions, I'm going to also hypothesize that these people also knew to hire accountants that know how to legally work the tax code. Now to come out and beg the government for a bailout is... rich. 

The FDIC limit of $250K is there for a reason. Maybe it's time we update it. But if the government goes above it, then it again shows rules and laws don't apply to the rich. They can just make some phone calls and get around them. 

[fryjack2]

Mar 11, 2023 18:22:45 GMT -5 sent said:

Mar 11, 2023 18:08:39 GMT -5 dreamcrisp1 said:

I’m not in the US but the company I work for is a tech start up. We are still bootstrapped but working with investors now for funding. But we’re picky and only want investors that align with our mission and values. So any tech start-up with VC could have been like ours - once bootstrapped and now with funding. It’s not at all true that access to VC money (at least here) is only for connected and privileged. Maybe a majority but not all.

I should have specified the USA then. I’m jaded because VC money has only ruined things in my field and it’s only the well connected that would even know how to access VC money. I have lots of business ideas but have zero clue how to get VC funding. A lot of us in private practice are wondering if this is the first domino to fall because VC money has been buying up private practices right and left and leaving the rest of us in the dust with our regular-bank loan boot straps.

 I live in an area with lots of VC and PE firms and our social circle includes many partners in various PE/VC firms. Google and research VCs that are only looking for women and/or women of color to invest in and you may have luck. More are popping up that have that same mission.  

[goldengirlz]

Mar 11, 2023 19:33:42 GMT -5 sent said:

Mar 11, 2023 18:33:59 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

But those people who have access to VC funding then employ regular people, just like any company. And those employees are not all engineers either. And now they may not get paid.

Then there’s the ripple effect on the broader economy — hundreds of billions in assets now tied up in limbo. We joke about “trickle down economics” but a lot of regular people got hurt in the ‘08-09 financial crisis too, not just finance bros.

I'm sure there are good companies that have come out of VC, but we all know Theranos and other bad ones that did nothing of substance, even if they employed regular people. 

When we are talking about access to millions, I'm going to also hypothesize that these people also knew to hire accountants that know how to legally work the tax code. Now to come out and beg the government for a bailout is... rich. 

The FDIC limit of $250K is there for a reason. Maybe it's time we update it. But if the government goes above it, then it again shows rules and laws don't apply to the rich. They can just make some phone calls and get around them. 

You do realize that MOST companies that are publicly traded today have raised capital from VC and PE firms, right? How do you think most successful companies scale? It’s not just electric scooters and delivery services we’re talking about here, but just about every sector of the economy.

ETA: I’m aware of the debate about VC and PE firms in healthcare, but that’s because U.S. healthcare is a goddamn mess. But any company past seed funding is going to look for institutional investors at some point in its lifecycle if it wants to be more than a mom-and-pop.

[mcsangel2]

Anyone saying businesses should just have hundreds of accounts over multiple banks to avoid this does not know a darn thing about accounting. My company is fewer than 150 people over 4 national offices, and our payroll is just under 1M every 2 weeks. Okay, that is just ONE expense that could not be met with a single account under $250,000.

I am an accountant and we have approximately 12 accounts at a major national bank (as well as a couple of accounts at other banks). It is my job to reconcile 8 of those 12 accounts every month. If we had dozens and dozens or hundreds of accounts to ensure everything was covered by FDIC, we would have to employ like 75 accountants to reconcile everything and keep on top of the tax paperwork and follow all regulations, instead of the 5 of us who do it now. We don't make enough money to pay 75 accountants, we would go out of business. This is a ridiculously simplistic suggestion.

[fryjack2]

I don't think people are suggesting simplistic suggestions due to total obliviousness.

I am not in finance or banking. But I sure as shit think that the people who are more closely involved in that world, or have enough money to need to consider this issue, would know enough about how it works to figure out how and where they should park their money so that the government, aka taxpayers, don't have to bail them out when something like this happens. Or that some system should exist to prevent it.

I know its a bigger issue than just this.  Government needs to bail out certain industries to keep the economy and markets performing, etc. etc. etc.  Doesn't mean its not frustrating to witness. 

[sent]

Mar 11, 2023 21:12:00 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

You do realize that MOST companies that are publicly traded today have raised capital from VC and PE firms, right? How do you think most successful companies scale? It’s not just electric scooters and delivery services we’re talking about here, but just about every sector of the economy.

ETA: I’m aware of the debate about VC and PE firms in healthcare, but that’s because U.S. healthcare is a goddamn mess. But any company past seed funding is going to look for institutional investors at some point in its lifecycle if it wants to be more than a mom-and-pop.

Sure, the rich and powerful trade money at a level that I will never understand from down here on Main Street. 

I will wait until I read more on Monday, but the articles right now don't have me drumming up any sympathy in the US. 

[tiki]

The 20-person company I worked at until January banked with SVB. These aren't "wealthy tech bros", they're normal people who have jobs doing customer support and marketing and hr and such for a company that happens to be a startup. And because it was mostly founder-funded (ie had *not* taken huge sums in VC money), I'm worried the founder had his family's personal accounts and home mortgage there as well to simplify his life. In hindsight sure, you could say that was risky, but how many different banks do you split your paychecks across? Do you really keep a checking account with Wells Fargo and another with BofA just in case one disappears tomorrow?

They'll get access to the $250k in FDIC money as of Monday, but the reality is that's not a lot of money for a business of any size. Unless there is some kind of relief or loan program or something to help the *customers* of this bank, a huge number of small business will fail to make payroll and pay their vendors in the upcoming weeks, and many of them will close as a result.

[sent]

Mar 12, 2023 8:17:35 GMT -5 tiki said:

Do you really keep a checking account with Wells Fargo and another with BofA just in case one disappears tomorrow? 

My company has half the employees of your former employer but yes I actually do have 2 business accounts at big, national banks. The big banks have special healthcare divisions and have business bankers that call/email you all the time so you have access to banking support. If they have healthcare divisions, I'm sure there are other divisions to support other big, high profile industries which is what the customers of this bank sounded like. 

However I can see if your former boss was in the tech industry to be drawn to this one local bank since "everyone else goes there." 

[tiki]

Mar 12, 2023 8:42:11 GMT -5 sent said:

My company has half the employees of your former employer but yes I actually do have 2 business accounts at big, national banks. The big banks have special healthcare divisions and have business bankers that call/email you all the time so you have access to banking support. If they have healthcare divisions, I'm sure there are other divisions to support other big, high profile industries which is what the customers of this bank sounded like. 

However I can see if your former boss was in the tech industry to be drawn to this one local bank since "everyone else goes there." 

Exactly - "everyone else goes there", so to make your tiny startup look legit, you bank there, too. It was a brand, and a way to get access to financial expertise. My former company's founder also preferred taking out loans instead of VC as a way to get seed money, and SVB was known to have great customer service and excellent loan terms for early stage companies. 

ETA: it's not a local bank. It started in Silicon Valley in the 80s, but I'm on the other side of the country and there are branches here. The company I worked for only had one employee in California. 

[mrspez07]

This bank wasn’t just a “tech bro” bank. It was a large financial institution in the region that provided funds to all sorts of businesses, including wineries and small businesses in the area. Yes, most of their business relied on funding businesses and keeping the capital to fund more startups, which was their downfall. There wasn’t enough diversification.
My DH works for a large multi-state bank with hundreds of employees, loans and accounts and it is only 1/2 the size of this bank. They aren’t kidding when they compare it to wamu, this isn’t some boutique bank with a few branches, this is a huge system.
The hostility and apathy for the business owners in this thread is disappointing.

[wanderingback]

Why are a lot of people blaming the business owners in here?
I mean I’m all for exposing capitalistic greed, but it doesn’t really seem like that’s what’s happening here.

[Bad Dingo]

Mar 12, 2023 9:14:27 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Why are a lot of people blaming the business owners in here?
I mean I’m all for exposing capitalistic greed, but it doesn’t really seem like that’s what’s happening here.

I'm not blaming random business owners who may have made poor banking decisions, but the ones who made a run on the bank causing this by withdrawing $42 billion in one day ($1 million per second for 10 hours straight).

Luckily any small business will have access to their $250k insured amount still.

[sent]

Some new facts I have learned since yesterday.

This bank is the 16th largest bank in the US.

In 2018, TFG got rid of some of the 2008 Dodd-Frank Act things that led to less oversight of this bank that could have maybe led to a different outcome because it would have been on the government's radar sooner. Something about how in 2018, one of the higher ups at this bank lobbied for this repeal.

As of last night, I was under the impression that this was a small local bank that served a very niche industry where mega wealth is passed around. 16th largest bank is pretty big. But apparently not big enough to be forced to be under the highest level of scrutiny for banks in this country because of politics. This is a mess and I hate that we are so polarized when it comes to keeping things in check so we don't have a meltdown like this.