The world is on the brink of climate calamity: IPCC

[Jalapeñomel]

Mar 21, 2023 12:10:14 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

The problem is that we are all hypocrites. It is so obvious even on these boards. People say they care about climate change but once someone posts a thread about travel everyone talks about how it is so important to them and they need to take multiple international trips a year. Or cars, any post about a new car and everyone is recommending their 3rd row SUVs. I have a friend who just bought a 3rd row SUV for a family of 3. We were joking they can each have their own row.

That's why I truly believe nothing will change until the government mandates it (which I'll believe it when I see it). Or at least encourages it with subsidies and penalties. Individuals are too selfish to give up anything by choice. But unfortunately the government is also made up of selfish individuals.

cattledogkisses, I completely agree with you.  The stupidity around companies forcing people back to the office is so frustrating.  I'm supposed to be in the office but my entire team is remote, so I go there and sit alone and do my work by Teams or email.  It is so stupid.  

100% or the discussion about needing four bedrooms and three bathrooms and a giant lawn that needs to be watered twice a day.

I’m guilty of giving into the luxuries of our world. And until we are ready to self reflect, many of us will continue to hand wring and nothing will get done.

[wanderingback]

Mar 21, 2023 18:59:14 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Mar 21, 2023 12:10:14 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

The problem is that we are all hypocrites. It is so obvious even on these boards. People say they care about climate change but once someone posts a thread about travel everyone talks about how it is so important to them and they need to take multiple international trips a year. Or cars, any post about a new car and everyone is recommending their 3rd row SUVs. I have a friend who just bought a 3rd row SUV for a family of 3. We were joking they can each have their own row.

That's why I truly believe nothing will change until the government mandates it (which I'll believe it when I see it). Or at least encourages it with subsidies and penalties. Individuals are too selfish to give up anything by choice. But unfortunately the government is also made up of selfish individuals.

cattledogkisses, I completely agree with you.  The stupidity around companies forcing people back to the office is so frustrating.  I'm supposed to be in the office but my entire team is remote, so I go there and sit alone and do my work by Teams or email.  It is so stupid.  

100% or the discussion about needing four bedrooms and three bathrooms and a giant lawn that needs to be watered twice a day.

I’m guilty of giving into the luxuries of our world. And until we are ready to self reflect, many of us will continue to hand wring and nothing will get done.

Also, I wonder how much the small things add up.
For example, when I lived overseas, going to the grocery store the selection of items available was much smaller. For some reason I’ve been paying attention to how obsessed our culture seems to be with clothes smelling like flowers after washing them. There are so many scent boosters and scent beads and all this other random crap for laundry. So I presume some people buy detergent, plus scent boosters plus fabric softener plus who knows what else. Not only is it wasteful at the individual consumer level to have 4 different items to wash your clothes, what is the environmental impact on making all those products, shipping them, marketing them, etc. Why can’t we just have unscented detergent and call it a day?! Capitalism I guess!

[pixy0stix]

Mar 21, 2023 19:22:28 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Mar 21, 2023 18:59:14 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

100% or the discussion about needing four bedrooms and three bathrooms and a giant lawn that needs to be watered twice a day.

I’m guilty of giving into the luxuries of our world. And until we are ready to self reflect, many of us will continue to hand wring and nothing will get done.

Also, I wonder how much the small things add up.
For example, when I lived overseas, going to the grocery store the selection of items available was much smaller. For some reason I’ve been paying attention to how obsessed our culture seems to be with clothes smelling like flowers after washing them. There are so many scent boosters and scent beads and all this other random crap for laundry. So I presume some people buy detergent, plus scent boosters plus fabric softener plus who knows what else. Not only is it wasteful at the individual consumer level to have 4 different items to wash your clothes, what is the environmental impact on making all those products, shipping them, marketing them, etc. Why can’t we just have unscented detergent and call it a day?! Capitalism I guess!

I posted an article a while ago that scented products (which includes "unscented" products) contribute more to air pollution than cars right now.

pandce.proboards.com/thread/628206/ozone-pollution-coming-oil-inside?page=1

[aspentosh]

I struggle with some of these responses, honestly. Maybe that's flameworthy.

Obviously the article says "The consumption habits of the wealthiest 10 percent of people generate three times as much pollution as those of the poorest 50 percent" so it's an issue brought on by people as well, but I feel like blaming consumers is not the way to go about this. Companies are creating so many more issues than your average consumer. And while I can put solar panels on my home, I cannot make a huge change like a solar farm or windmill farm. While I can drive an EV, I can't mandate EV driving. While I can cut plastic use in my home, I can't ban or penalize the use of plastics in certain industries.

So sure, I've done all I can at this moment and continue to do it on a daily basis, but I'm just one person. Does me having an EV as our only vehicle, cutting out almost all plastics (and scents because they give me horrible headaches), composting, planting my own garden so I can grow locally, baking my own bread etc etc etc mean anything if I want my family to take one flight a year? Or have I undone all my hard work? Maybe it's a me problem (likely) but the finger pointing at the people really bothers me.

ETA: And I am definitely not trying to say consumers shouldn't change their habits, in case that wasn't clear. We could all improve. 

[aspentosh]

Mar 21, 2023 19:34:33 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 21, 2023 19:22:28 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Also, I wonder how much the small things add up.
For example, when I lived overseas, going to the grocery store the selection of items available was much smaller. For some reason I’ve been paying attention to how obsessed our culture seems to be with clothes smelling like flowers after washing them. There are so many scent boosters and scent beads and all this other random crap for laundry. So I presume some people buy detergent, plus scent boosters plus fabric softener plus who knows what else. Not only is it wasteful at the individual consumer level to have 4 different items to wash your clothes, what is the environmental impact on making all those products, shipping them, marketing them, etc. Why can’t we just have unscented detergent and call it a day?! Capitalism I guess!

I posted an article a while ago that scented products (which includes "unscented" products) contribute more to air pollution than cars right now.

pandce.proboards.com/thread/628206/ozone-pollution-coming-oil-inside?page=1

I totally missed this when you posted it the first time, but this would be amazing. I get horrible migraines from almost all scents so I am going to read up on this and see where things stand.

[shauni27]

Mar 22, 2023 7:05:18 GMT -5 aspentosh said:

I struggle with some of these responses, honestly. Maybe that's flameworthy.

Obviously the article says "The consumption habits of the wealthiest 10 percent of people generate three times as much pollution as those of the poorest 50 percent" so it's an issue brought on by people as well, but I feel like blaming consumers is not the way to go about this. Companies are creating so many more issues than your average consumer. And while I can put solar panels on my home, I cannot make a huge change like a solar farm or windmill farm. While I can drive an EV, I can't mandate EV driving. While I can cut plastic use in my home, I can't ban or penalize the use of plastics in certain industries.

So sure, I've done all I can at this moment and continue to do it on a daily basis, but I'm just one person. Does me having an EV as our only vehicle, cutting out almost all plastics (and scents because they give me horrible headaches), composting, planting my own garden so I can grow locally, baking my own bread etc etc etc mean anything if I want my family to take one flight a year? Or have I undone all my hard work? Maybe it's a me problem (likely) but the finger pointing at the people really bothers me.

ETA: And I am definitely not trying to say consumers shouldn't change their habits, in case that wasn't clear. We could all improve. 

I think we can talk about we as a whole, we the general world community, while also knowing that we as individuals ARE doing a lot to help. But also being aware that we, both as individuals and as a whole, can do more. I compost, I garden, I am getting my energy audit as we speak to make improvements, but I am also taking 2 airplane vacations this year. I could cut that luxury down and sell my car for a smaller EV one, but I am not. So while I am doing some great steps, I am still guilty of giving into the luxeries of the world (so well put, Jalapeñomel).

I keep thinking about Taylor Swift and how the boards went crazy getting tickets to see her. And now I am seeing clips of her shows and while it is incredible to see, I think of the INSANE waste of resources and energy it is. Or the half time shows that people love, again, so much waste. Yet we live for these things, they are deeply engrained in our culture. Until that changes (How?!?!), we are never going to make enough progress with the environment.

[wildrice]

Mar 22, 2023 7:05:18 GMT -5 aspentosh said:

I struggle with some of these responses, honestly. Maybe that's flameworthy.

Obviously the article says "The consumption habits of the wealthiest 10 percent of people generate three times as much pollution as those of the poorest 50 percent" so it's an issue brought on by people as well, but I feel like blaming consumers is not the way to go about this. Companies are creating so many more issues than your average consumer. And while I can put solar panels on my home, I cannot make a huge change like a solar farm or windmill farm. While I can drive an EV, I can't mandate EV driving. While I can cut plastic use in my home, I can't ban or penalize the use of plastics in certain industries.

So sure, I've done all I can at this moment and continue to do it on a daily basis, but I'm just one person. Does me having an EV as our only vehicle, cutting out almost all plastics (and scents because they give me horrible headaches), composting, planting my own garden so I can grow locally, baking my own bread etc etc etc mean anything if I want my family to take one flight a year? Or have I undone all my hard work? Maybe it's a me problem (likely) but the finger pointing at the people really bothers me.

ETA: And I am definitely not trying to say consumers shouldn't change their habits, in case that wasn't clear. We could all improve. 

I am with you. We fly multiple times a year, partly for vacation and partly because our families and friends live in all different places so if we ever want to see loved ones, there isn't really another option. I do feel bad about it, but it's not something I'm willing to give up. I guess I look at it as that meaning that we need to balance it out by doing other things - living in a smaller house than most of our peers, electric heat and other energy saving at our house, driving a small fuel efficient car, having a 2 person family, being mindful of how much meat we eat, etc. I doubt our net emissions are zero, but at least they are better than they would be if we ignored the need to make changes altogether. I think individuals should do the best they can - but even if all individuals gave up all of life's pleasures and focused on climate change as #1 priority (which will never happen), we still have a lot of structural issues and businesses that are contributing way more than individuals ever could. 

I find this topic overwhelming because I honestly don't think we are going to fix it. It is one of the few reasons I'm glad that I'm unlikely to live more than another 40 years or so... I love being alive but I am scared for what life will look like in the future. 

[pixy0stix]

I'm slowly imbibing a cup of coffee, so forgive me if this is garbled. When I say "we" in the following, I mean we generally worldwide, but with a big emphasis on the US culture.

First I want people to watch these two commercials:

1. youtu.be/EOURX29-eFQ

2. youtu.be/winJj-1Q3uk

Summary if you can't watch, they're O&G campaigns against regulation showcasing just how much of our every day products are from the industry.

The commercials are meant to be shocking and a cautionary tale. I've been finding them a great tool to help people understand 1) how much of a problem plastics are; and 2) prepping people for what is going to have to cut, and what we need to support. People like to talk about how they support the regulation of the O&G industry, while not realizing our entire culture is going to have to shift. It's not just how we fuel transportation or how we heat our homes. I've started bringing that up in convos on the board here, but it's not really gaining traction.

So when I say we/individuals are going to have to do more, I mean we're going to have to make do with scarcity (as we in the US see it). We think of recycling as something where we put plastics in the nice little receptacle and they go away. Most people don't understand that only a tiny fraction, around 5%, of that plastic is being recycled. (SOURCE). Our food sources will change, as agriculture will (hopefully) become less intensive. Some foods we take for granted (like non-seasonal appropriate fruits, or avocados/almonds from CA) will just disappear. And on and on and on. 

There is not a single aspect of our lives that won't become "harder" as we see it. When we say we're doing all we can individually, I can tell you without a doubt that we're not, and we're going to have to be ok with, and support, those changes. I know for damn sure that there is not a single person on these boards that is going to like it, myself included.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 22, 2023 8:01:58 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I find this topic overwhelming because I honestly don't think we are going to fix it. It is one of the few reasons I'm glad that I'm unlikely to live more than another 40 years or so... I love being alive but I am scared for what life will look like in the future. 

Since we're going to start seeing the most dire effects soon, we're going to be impacted when we're most vulnerable and unable physically/mentally to change. Dying sooner rather than later isn't going to help us. (See also: another mindset that we need to change, there's no escaping this)

[pixy0stix]

I thought of something else as I hit post, and I have to make it quick before I start work - We (again in the US) believe with our whole chests that technology is going to be able to step in and keep our lives exactly the same as they've always been. We're seeing people switch their gas cars to EVs, but not change their driving habits. Like someone said upthread, the employer assumed that people's objections to driving was because they couldn't charge their EV. There's a whole lot of transportation that has to change, including how much we travel. Changing the mode of propulsion only solves a teeny tiny little bit of that puzzle.

[aurora]

I do wish it were easier to find out the true climate impacts of our decisions. There are so many variables that go into the analysis that it's complicated, and I think that makes it harder for people to know what are the better choices. And yes, I have seen many comparison charts, but it's not always clear (even to someone fairly well educated on the topic) what underlying assumptions were used.


@@@@

Buy less, travel less, keep your family small, yes, but I think many people also conflate things like recycling with helping the climate change problem, and it just isn't in the same category.

[aurora]

But systemically or entire system is built on a growth-is-good platform. No matter what we do, we aren't going to be able to do both (address climate change and continue to grow) forever.

[tamarindy]

Mar 22, 2023 8:45:57 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 22, 2023 8:01:58 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I find this topic overwhelming because I honestly don't think we are going to fix it. It is one of the few reasons I'm glad that I'm unlikely to live more than another 40 years or so... I love being alive but I am scared for what life will look like in the future. 

Since we're going to start seeing the most dire effects soon, we're going to be impacted when we're most vulnerable and unable physically/mentally to change. Dying sooner rather than later isn't going to help us. (See also: another mindset that we need to change, there's no escaping this)

Yes, we're fucked and definitely in this lifetime.  

To be honest, I very much relate to the "mindset" that wildrice posted.  I love being alive but as a CF person am grateful that I won't have to carry that worry for a future generation and their fate on this planet.  That doesn't mean I don't do what I can ("ALL I can?" - No.  Not a single person here does, I would bet). 

[aspentosh]

pixy0stix, thanks for sharing those commercials. I have always appreciated you sounding the alarm. I think it was from you years ago that I started really doing more research on this and trying to eliminate plastic in my house vs just recycling "better".

I don't know what the answer is and that truly scares me.

[Velar Fricative]

For a long time I always believed that if consumers could demand less (and demand can be influenced by peers which then pushes companies to shift their business models), companies wouldn't be making/offering so much crap. But, I feel like so much of what is manufactured or created today are things that we don't actually need but eventually we believe we cannot live without thanks to the fact that the item exists. So while we all have a stake in making changes, it really is an uphill battle when we're constantly being wooed with new technology (that still has an environmental impact even if it's "better"), cheaper opportunities to travel far, bigger houses being built that make us wonder how we grew up the way we did (in smaller homes in cities or denser inner suburbs), etc.

Just a random thought I wanted to post that isn't really related to any particular post here but came up as I was reading.

[cattledogkisses]

Mar 22, 2023 10:37:00 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

For a long time I always believed that if consumers could demand less (and demand can be influenced by peers which then pushes companies to shift their business models), companies wouldn't be making/offering so much crap. But, I feel like so much of what is manufactured or created today are things that we don't actually need but eventually we believe we cannot live without thanks to the fact that the item exists. So while we all have a stake in making changes, it really is an uphill battle when we're constantly being wooed with new technology (that still has an environmental impact even if it's "better"), cheaper opportunities to travel far, bigger houses being built that make us wonder how we grew up the way we did (in smaller homes in cities or denser inner suburbs), etc.

Just a random thought I wanted to post that isn't really related to any particular post here but came up as I was reading.

I was thinking about this recently as I've started seeing commercials for laundry sanitizer.  Because apparently now it's not enough to just wash your clothes with detergent, you're also supposed to sanitize your laundry. 

I feel in particular that Covid created a lot of ways for companies to capitalize on peoples' general fear of germs.

[aspentosh]

Mar 22, 2023 10:37:00 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

For a long time I always believed that if consumers could demand less (and demand can be influenced by peers which then pushes companies to shift their business models), companies wouldn't be making/offering so much crap. But, I feel like so much of what is manufactured or created today are things that we don't actually need but eventually we believe we cannot live without thanks to the fact that the item exists. So while we all have a stake in making changes, it really is an uphill battle when we're constantly being wooed with new technology (that still has an environmental impact even if it's "better"), cheaper opportunities to travel far, bigger houses being built that make us wonder how we grew up the way we did (in smaller homes in cities or denser inner suburbs), etc.

Just a random thought I wanted to post that isn't really related to any particular post here but came up as I was reading.

I see this a lot. Water bottles, for example. I've used the same metal one for yeaaaaars but now I see a new water bottle trend each year. Yeti, then Hydroflask, then Stanley, etc. These things are made to last forever so why are we upgrading them every f*cking year?! It drives me mad. 

[wanderingback]

Also I do think consumers can demand change, especially on the local level. Yes it might be hard to take down Amazon as a whole, but there’s def been local push back when an Amazon warehouse has wanted to come to local neighborhoods and residents saying no and it boy happening for example.

If people stopped buying SUVs for example, auto makers would stop buying them. Obviously the government is going to have to force people’s hands because no one is going to make individual change but individuals together could make change by speaking with their dollars. But I get that marketing and companies make it seem like we need these things so it makes it very difficult to envision drastic change. Covid forced our hand but that was obviously only temporary.

[pixy0stix]

I think we're also going to have major issues that we're going to be forced to address outside of just the pure climate ones. The OP article said that we (global) have the money to lessen the financial impacts, but that isn't all that needs to be done. I had a conversation on FB with a black friend who posted that she wasn't going to buy an EV until the range for the batteries is better. In typical me fashion I blazed in and said we can't wait. Back and forth, and I finally grasped that her main argument wasn't about the range - it was that she regularly visits areas where she doesn't feel safe getting out of the car for 5 min to pump gas, let alone stop somewhere and spend the 20-30 min it would currently take to fast charge a car. Which is 1000% valid. We're asking people to make changes now, immediately, when we haven't even tackled our other systemic issues. Or, it's hard to get people in Jackson, MS to care about other larger issues when they spend a lot of time worrying about their basic need of daily clean water. (Although it's quite possible that infrastructure changes related to climate change would help the clean water issue.) Tl;dr it's hard to get people to grasp the technology that we have now for a myriad of good reasons, and not wait for a possible "better" tech that may come.

[bee20]

I'm seeing parallels between this and the recent retirement age increase in France. Of course that is partially caused by more consumption and partially by falling birthrates (that will eventually, maybe, lead to a leveling of consumption in France). After days of rioting, Macron was quoted as saying:

“Do you think I enjoy doing this reform? No,” he said in a televised interview with TF1 and France 2, but said the pension system was broken and “the longer we wait the worse the situation will get.”

Other sources I've read say this has been his signature issue for years and he'll likely lose his job for it.  Are there climate-focused politicians who need their one shot at policy change that should be supported?  (Is supporting a politician for a cause ever an effective use of individuals' dollars?)

[gerder3]

Mar 21, 2023 13:01:09 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Mar 21, 2023 12:10:14 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

That's why I truly believe nothing will change until the government mandates it (which I'll believe it when I see it). Or at least encourages it with subsidies and penalties. Individuals are too selfish to give up anything by choice. But unfortunately the government is also made up of selfish individuals.

cattledogkisses, I completely agree with you.  The stupidity around companies forcing people back to the office is so frustrating.  I'm supposed to be in the office but my entire team is remote, so I go there and sit alone and do my work by Teams or email.  It is so stupid.  

I agree that true change won't come until it's mandated. Even if people are willing to make the changes on their own, they need the support. I'd love to not have to drive a vehicle, but public transport is non-existant where I live. Hell, there aren't even sidewalks a lot of places, so, into the car we hop. I'd love to do remote work. I'd love it if there were more resources set up to buy local, to swap items, to recycle, to be able to bring my own jars and containers to the store instead of using plastic packaging, etc. There are a million things I'd be happy to do, but society and business aren't currently set up that way, and won't be until it's mandated. So I do what I can, realize it's a half a drop in the bucket, and move on. I don't think I'm alone. But I recognize I'm still part of the problem, just by existing in our culture.

Infrequent poster here but yes, this exactly. We are so fractured because we've lost genuine community and have little power to collectively bargain for the things that would actually move the needle on emission goals.

People want clean air, water and access to transportation on a basic level. Regular folks who are concerned about the climate don't have a choice, we need to start organizing in a meaningful way. To me, that means finding others willing to take non-violent direct action against the status quo.

It also important to familiarize ourselves with the concepts of eco-fascism and imperialism. Leaders on both sides of the aisle want to find a way to engineer our way out climate change in a way that disrupts capitalism as little as possible, and historically that's always led to exploitation. Join an org that engages in direct action. Organize with to your co-workers, friends, community members etc.

[msmerymac]

Mar 21, 2023 13:01:09 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Mar 21, 2023 12:10:14 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

That's why I truly believe nothing will change until the government mandates it (which I'll believe it when I see it). Or at least encourages it with subsidies and penalties. Individuals are too selfish to give up anything by choice. But unfortunately the government is also made up of selfish individuals.

cattledogkisses , I completely agree with you.  The stupidity around companies forcing people back to the office is so frustrating.  I'm supposed to be in the office but my entire team is remote, so I go there and sit alone and do my work by Teams or email.  It is so stupid.  

I agree that true change won't come until it's mandated. Even if people are willing to make the changes on their own, they need the support. I'd love to not have to drive a vehicle, but public transport is non-existant where I live. Hell, there aren't even sidewalks a lot of places, so, into the car we hop. I'd love to do remote work. I'd love it if there were more resources set up to buy local, to swap items, to recycle, to be able to bring my own jars and containers to the store instead of using plastic packaging, etc. There are a million things I'd be happy to do, but society and business aren't currently set up that way, and won't be until it's mandated. So I do what I can, realize it's a half a drop in the bucket, and move on. I don't think I'm alone. But I recognize I'm still part of the problem, just by existing in our culture.

So I intentionally live in a place where I have access to public transit, shop at a store that allows me to bring my own containers and doesn't use plastic bags (although my town also just banned plastic bags - which won't affect me, since I don't use them anyway!), and my house only has 1 vehicle, which is certainly unusual for someone in the suburbs of a city where even city homes tend to have 3+ vehicles taking up valuable street parking. 

Do MOST places have commuter rail that's walkable from residential areas (how I got to my office this morning, where I only need to report occasionally)? No. But housing near transit options has gone up in value, and if more people considered the environment or lifestyle changes when determining where they lived, we would be in a much better place. 

ETA: Of course this wouldn't come close to SOLVING the issues, which should go without saying.

[chickadee77]

Mar 23, 2023 13:19:50 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Mar 21, 2023 13:01:09 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

I agree that true change won't come until it's mandated. Even if people are willing to make the changes on their own, they need the support. I'd love to not have to drive a vehicle, but public transport is non-existant where I live. Hell, there aren't even sidewalks a lot of places, so, into the car we hop. I'd love to do remote work. I'd love it if there were more resources set up to buy local, to swap items, to recycle, to be able to bring my own jars and containers to the store instead of using plastic packaging, etc. There are a million things I'd be happy to do, but society and business aren't currently set up that way, and won't be until it's mandated. So I do what I can, realize it's a half a drop in the bucket, and move on. I don't think I'm alone. But I recognize I'm still part of the problem, just by existing in our culture.

So I intentionally live in a place where I have access to public transit, shop at a store that allows me to bring my own containers and doesn't use plastic bags (although my town also just banned plastic bags - which won't affect me, since I don't use them anyway!), and my house only has 1 vehicle, which is certainly unusual for someone in the suburbs of a city where even city homes tend to have 3+ vehicles taking up valuable street parking. 

Do MOST places have commuter rail that's walkable from residential areas (how I got to my office this morning, where I only need to report occasionally)? No. But housing near transit options has gone up in value, and if more people considered the environment or lifestyle changes when determining where they lived, we would be in a much better place. 

ETA: Of course this wouldn't come close to SOLVING the issues, which should go without saying.

That's awesome for a lot of people, but none of these things are even options within hundreds of miles of where I live in the Midwest, and until they are, mindset isn't going to shift very quickly. Look how long it's taking EVs to catch on in more rural areas (and I'm not even *super* rural compared to some states/areas). That's where, I think, mandates will have to come in. Businesses aren't going to do it on their own.

[pixy0stix]

Mar 23, 2023 16:50:05 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Mar 23, 2023 13:19:50 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

So I intentionally live in a place where I have access to public transit, shop at a store that allows me to bring my own containers and doesn't use plastic bags (although my town also just banned plastic bags - which won't affect me, since I don't use them anyway!), and my house only has 1 vehicle, which is certainly unusual for someone in the suburbs of a city where even city homes tend to have 3+ vehicles taking up valuable street parking. 

Do MOST places have commuter rail that's walkable from residential areas (how I got to my office this morning, where I only need to report occasionally)? No. But housing near transit options has gone up in value, and if more people considered the environment or lifestyle changes when determining where they lived, we would be in a much better place. 

ETA: Of course this wouldn't come close to SOLVING the issues, which should go without saying.

That's awesome for a lot of people, but none of these things are even options within hundreds of miles of where I live in the Midwest, and until they are, mindset isn't going to shift very quickly. Look how long it's taking EVs to catch on in more rural areas (and I'm not even *super* rural compared to some states/areas). That's where, I think, mandates will have to come in. Businesses aren't going to do it on their own.

Driving across eastern CO into western NE, I see a lot of EVs out and about. However, when I look for public chargers, there's not a lot. I think most people have chargers at home, and are switching over in the region, they're just quiet about it.

[chickadee77]

Mar 23, 2023 17:27:42 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Mar 23, 2023 16:50:05 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

That's awesome for a lot of people, but none of these things are even options within hundreds of miles of where I live in the Midwest, and until they are, mindset isn't going to shift very quickly. Look how long it's taking EVs to catch on in more rural areas (and I'm not even *super* rural compared to some states/areas). That's where, I think, mandates will have to come in. Businesses aren't going to do it on their own.

Driving across eastern CO into western NE, I see a lot of EVs out and about. However, when I look for public chargers, there's not a lot. I think most people have chargers at home, and are switching over in the region, they're just quiet about it.

Yes, I'm starting to see them catch on here, too, but it's been slow. It's that pesky infrastructure issue again. Few places to charge in public and people worry about the what-ifs - what if they get stuck somewhere (particularly due to weather) is the big one I hear. It's still waaaay easier to find fuel than a charging station here.

[macmars45]

Mar 23, 2023 13:19:50 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Mar 21, 2023 13:01:09 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

I agree that true change won't come until it's mandated. Even if people are willing to make the changes on their own, they need the support. I'd love to not have to drive a vehicle, but public transport is non-existant where I live. Hell, there aren't even sidewalks a lot of places, so, into the car we hop. I'd love to do remote work. I'd love it if there were more resources set up to buy local, to swap items, to recycle, to be able to bring my own jars and containers to the store instead of using plastic packaging, etc. There are a million things I'd be happy to do, but society and business aren't currently set up that way, and won't be until it's mandated. So I do what I can, realize it's a half a drop in the bucket, and move on. I don't think I'm alone. But I recognize I'm still part of the problem, just by existing in our culture.

So I intentionally live in a place where I have access to public transit, shop at a store that allows me to bring my own containers and doesn't use plastic bags (although my town also just banned plastic bags - which won't affect me, since I don't use them anyway!), and my house only has 1 vehicle, which is certainly unusual for someone in the suburbs of a city where even city homes tend to have 3+ vehicles taking up valuable street parking. 

Do MOST places have commuter rail that's walkable from residential areas (how I got to my office this morning, where I only need to report occasionally)? No. But housing near transit options has gone up in value, and if more people considered the environment or lifestyle changes when determining where they lived, we would be in a much better place. 

ETA: Of course this wouldn't come close to SOLVING the issues, which should go without saying.

That's all well and good unless/until you can't afford to live in the walkable city with access to good public transportation. In WA state that means Seattle. My family lived in the Seattle area for 11 years. We couldn't afford Seattle itself. And then we were priced out of the Seattle area. So we moved across the state where housing is cheaper once H's work went fully remote.

[pixy0stix]

Y'all, she said "intentionally" meaning she chose a place in her budget that fit those criteria. Its not a judgement on where you live. Jeebus.

ETA: I was actually wondering when we'd get to the "but this couldn't possibly work for me" portion of the thread.

[chickadee77]

Mar 23, 2023 18:55:02 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Y'all, she said "intentionally" meaning she chose a place in her budget that fit those criteria. Its not a judgement on where you live. Jeebus.

ETA: I was actually wondering when we'd get to the "but this couldn't possibly work for me" portion of the thread.

I apologize if I drove it in that direction; it was not my intent, and is not helpful. I was simply trying to point out that I do think, unfortunately, legislation needs to be a driving force to change. People can make demands, "speak with their wallets," and such, but until businesses are forced into it, I think capitalism is going to win in this country. I hope I'm wrong. If it's not profitable, it's not going to happen, and we're all up Shit Creek.

[scm1011]

Mar 23, 2023 18:55:02 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Y'all, she said "intentionally" meaning she chose a place in her budget that fit those criteria. Its not a judgement on where you live. Jeebus.

ETA: I was actually wondering when we'd get to the "but this couldn't possibly work for me" portion of the thread.

I didn't take it that way at all. I live in a nearly identical place for similar reasons (urban, walkable, plenty of public transit options and bike lanes, eco-conscious mentality), but I also paid a huge premium for that privilege. I have plenty of friends/neighbors who are dying to stay here but can't afford $3500 monthly rent or a $1M condo to make it happen and are being pushed out to suburbs that don't have the infrastructure my city has to support that lifestyle.

[audette]

Mar 23, 2023 22:13:03 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Mar 23, 2023 18:55:02 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Y'all, she said "intentionally" meaning she chose a place in her budget that fit those criteria. Its not a judgement on where you live. Jeebus.

ETA: I was actually wondering when we'd get to the "but this couldn't possibly work for me" portion of the thread.

I apologize if I drove it in that direction; it was not my intent, and is not helpful. I was simply trying to point out that I do think, unfortunately, legislation needs to be a driving force to change. People can make demands, "speak with their wallets," and such, but until businesses are forced into it, I think capitalism is going to win in this country. I hope I'm wrong. If it's not profitable, it's not going to happen, and we're all up Shit Creek.

And, legislation can work.  People will gripe about it when it's enacted, but, generally, after it's in place, they get along with things like plastic bag bans, and so forth.

I think the biggest encourager of recycling I've seen, as I've moved from place to place - charging for trash by the bag.  You literally had to purchase trash bags, and the cost wasn't the cost of the bag, it was the cost of trash collection for the bag, once full.  Larger bags cost disproportionately more than smaller, because they took up more space.  Paired with stiff penalties for littering, and free recycling, compost, and cloth/rag pickup, it worked pretty well, as far as I could tell.  (I think there was another 2-3 categories of sorting, but I can't remember them all anymore.)

I am guessing that some of this system depended on underpaid waste handlers somewhere, because even having to purchase trash bags, it was not horribly expensive to buy them.  But, we were expats in Korea being paid US incomes, so our gauge for costs might not be ideal.