Caitlin Clark and women’s basketball

[erbear]

Apr 2, 2023 20:52:29 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Apr 2, 2023 20:21:48 GMT -5 erbear said:

I was also really disappointed with the lack of sportsmanship by Angel Reese after the game. It bummed me out to see kids with such lack of grace? general kindness? following a game they won. I feel some kinda way about this (and I’m usually on board with confidence and even a little cockiness in women’s sports)

But didn’t Caitlin Clark do that same gesture in the previous game? I feel like there is a double standard.

Oh I agree. Didn’t love when she did it either. Just…win and don’t be a dick. I said the same thing when CC did it.

[underwaterrhymes]

Apr 2, 2023 21:03:24 GMT -5 erbear said:

Apr 2, 2023 20:52:29 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

But didn’t Caitlin Clark do that same gesture in the previous game? I feel like there is a double standard.

Oh I agree. Didn’t love when she did it either. Just…win and don’t be a dick. I said the same thing when CC did it.

You might have, but I’m seeing a huge difference in the way it’s being framed by others and the media. Caitlin Clark “went on a gleeful gallop around the court” and Angel Reese is “classless.” People who praised Clark for her gesture (which was made in the same spirit as Reese’s) are reacting completely differently when it was Reese. I know the reason why, too.

Again, I’m not saying that was your intent, but wanted to point out the discrepancy.

[erbear]

I don’t disagree with you. Not my intention but I looked at Twitter and I se what you’re saying.

I love the confidence these women are showing. Like their “no one likes and we don’t care” attitude. I am taken aback when athletes come out so hard against each other when what I’ve seen lately and experienced myself as an athlete isn’t support for each other. I’m not sure why this bothers me — dudes do it all the time.

[beetea]

Apr 2, 2023 7:03:06 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Prepare to be heartwarmed. It sounds like Clark is a really great person in addition to being a legend in her sport.

OMG, I am literally crying. Iconic.

[kiminky]

I didn't love it when Clark did the gesture after an interaction with HVL, but, hey, it's part of the trash talk of the game. I saw Reese do it at the free throw line and thought, welp, payback's a b#@$%. We don't know how much is being said between players on the court. I think (I may be wrong) Clark running around the court in glee, was in celebration after a win and not directed at any player. I thought Reese doing the gesture repeatedly while following Clark around the court at the end of the game was a little over the top. Of course, the media and public was going to grab hold, they have been doing that with Reese all season. The players have all elevated each other's games this season, which I think has been great for the sport.

[underwaterrhymes]

They’re all talking smack. Clark told one player “you’re down 15 points so shut up,” so it’s not like she‘s the pinnacle of warm and fuzzy game play. I have zero problems with smack talk and celebrating, etc., since you also see plenty of good sportsmanship.

I have a major problem with the narrative being different for white players than it is for Black players. You see in it other sports, too.

[kiminky]

Apr 2, 2023 21:56:20 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

They’re all talking smack. Clark told one player “you’re down 15 points so shut up,” so it’s not like she the pinnacle of warm and fuzzy game play. I have zero problems with smack talk and celebrating, etc., since you also see plenty of good sportsmanship.

I have a major problem with the narrative being different for white players than it is for Black players. You see in it other sports, too.

I agree with this. Clark said the 15 point thing to HVL. I knew as soon as it went down in today's game the media was going to jump on it.

Lastly, I wanted to give a shout out to Morris of LSU, who persevered through 4 schools and got that title. She zeroed in on Clark, watching their game in person after their Final Four win and really came to play.

[pixy0stix]

Re: double standard - I don't follow basketball at all, it's just not my sport. I've been pushed so much content via FB that was 100% celebrating Caitlin Clark being a dick on court, but today all the content is negative regarding Angel Reese. Do you know how many articles I scrolled past talking about Caitlin's "you can't see me" hand move with John Cena responding positively? And now that Angel Reese has done it there is so much pearl clutching.

The media is being it's typical racist self again.

[orval]

I also do not watch but happened to catch the final quarter at a restaurant. It was obvious to me that LSU was pissed about something and they came to play. It was almost like they weren't happy they won but wanted to say "F you" to everyone. I appreciate that attitude. I almost always root for Big 10 teams, but not this time. LSU was awesome!

[pixy0stix]

The only other narrative that I saw pushed was that LSU'S coach dresses like a mardi gras float, lol!

[wawa]

Apr 3, 2023 8:12:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

The only other narrative that I saw pushed was that LSU'S coach dresses like a mardi gras float, lol!

we had a pretty extensive conversation in my house about whether the sequins were the flippy kind (we came to the conclusion that they were, pink on one side, gold on the other), whether the pants were actually flared or just fell like that, and if she could squat flat footed or ONLY in high heels.

[eddy]

Not the ending I wanted, obviously! Really fun season. Yesterdays game was not fun, but it rarely is when your team loses.

I wish the game hadn't been officiated so tight. The reason I enjoy WBB is because officiating is not so center stage. That certainly wasn't the case last night. 10 more personal fouls called then the previous record for personal fouls in a game. You don't get to that stage without discipline so taking the teams out of their flow was unnecessary. At one point all of the best players were on the bench on both sides in the first half.  And the fouls were called evenly so this isn't just my sore loser side talking lol. It was just too much and made for frustrating spectating. 



And now I enter my non- sports watching time period. :-)

[eddy]

Also I am convinced KM dresses the way she does to distract the narrative away from how she is a garbage person. We giggle about the outfits and then don't talk about how she has done some extremely problamatic things.

[pixy0stix]

Apr 3, 2023 8:52:24 GMT -5 eddy said:

Also I am convinced KM dresses the way she does to distract the narrative away from how she is a garbage person. We giggle about the outfits and then don't talk about how she has done some extremely problamatic things.

Oh yeah? I'm going completely off the narrative that was pushed to me from social media. I have no idea who she is. I did think the coverage was odd that her team was never mentioned. You don't get to be a finalist without the team.

[eddy]

Apr 3, 2023 9:10:01 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Apr 3, 2023 8:52:24 GMT -5 eddy said:

Also I am convinced KM dresses the way she does to distract the narrative away from how she is a garbage person. We giggle about the outfits and then don't talk about how she has done some extremely problamatic things.

Oh yeah? I'm going completely off the narrative that was pushed to me from social media. I have no idea who she is. I did think the coverage was odd that her team was never mentioned. You don't get to be a finalist without the team.

Google her + Baylor. 

Yeah, I even forgot about all the past stuff. I forgot about her involvement with Britney Griner. And then her un-involvement with Britney when she was in prision. 

I hope she is supportive of her players at LSU and not just when they are performing for her.

[lilac05]

I wish the narrative about sportsmanship and double standards would be based on a different example. It most certainly exists and should be talked about. I’ve never been a fan of the “can’t see me” gesture, and didn’t think it needed the coverage that it got. (We certainly wouldn’t spend a second talking about something similar from men.) When you look at the still shots of the same gesture done between the two players, they look exactly the same. But at the very end of the game, the LSU player was running around CC repeatedly making the gesture and then pointing to her ring finger. I disagree that it was “in the same spirit.”

But there are many other examples even with this tournament of a double standard in several areas. I wish they were using different examples to have a good, necessary conversation.

At the end of the day. LSU deserved that win. They have every reason to celebrate. It makes me mad that so much of the after-game discussion is on sportsmanship and who did/did not act “appropriately” rather than celebrating two incredible teams playing a level of basketball we’ve never seen in women’s college athletics before. After men’s games, we talk about incredible plays/coaching/strategy, the refs (which were certainly a story here), etc. We don’t spend two seconds talking about whether or not their behavior on/off the court was acceptable.

Back to being an embarrassed Iowan…the repeated awful comments are not a good look. Not enough people celebrating a fantastic season, too many going on and on about unsportsmanlike behavior. The passive aggressive “way to play with CLASS” is obnoxious.

[erbear]

Apr 3, 2023 8:16:27 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 3, 2023 8:12:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

The only other narrative that I saw pushed was that LSU'S coach dresses like a mardi gras float, lol!

we had a pretty extensive conversation in my house about whether the sequins were the flippy kind (we came to the conclusion that they were, pink on one side, gold on the other), whether the pants were actually flared or just fell like that, and if she could squat flat footed or ONLY in high heels.

We wanted the sequins to flip to “national champions” when they won.

[seeyalater52]

Apr 2, 2023 21:12:56 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Apr 2, 2023 21:03:24 GMT -5 erbear said:

Oh I agree. Didn’t love when she did it either. Just…win and don’t be a dick. I said the same thing when CC did it.

You might have, but I’m seeing a huge difference in the way it’s being framed by others and the media. Caitlin Clark “went on a gleeful gallop around the court” and Angel Reese is “classless.” People who praised Clark for her gesture (which was made in the same spirit as Reese’s) are reacting completely differently when it was Reese. I know the reason why, too.

Again, I’m not saying that was your intent, but wanted to point out the discrepancy.

This exactly. Black women are always held to a different standard and it’s wrong and it’s racist and although individually we might not mean it like that or dislike the behavior no matter who is doing it I think it’s important to be mindful of our role in contributing to that broader narrative.

[eddy]

Apr 3, 2023 9:24:16 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

I wish the narrative about sportsmanship and double standards would be based on a different example. It most certainly exists and should be talked about. I’ve never been a fan of the “can’t see me” gesture, and didn’t think it needed the coverage that it got. (We certainly wouldn’t spend a second talking about something similar from men.) When you look at the still shots of the same gesture done between the two players, they look exactly the same. But at the very end of the game, the LSU player was running around CC repeatedly making the gesture and then pointing to her ring finger. I disagree that it was “in the same spirit.”

But there are many other examples even with this tournament of a double standard in several areas. I wish they were using different examples to have a good, necessary conversation.

At the end of the day. LSU deserved that win. They have every reason to celebrate. It makes me mad that so much of the after-game discussion is on sportsmanship and who did/did not act “appropriately” rather than celebrating two incredible teams playing a level of basketball we’ve never seen in women’s college athletics before. After men’s games, we talk about incredible plays/coaching/strategy, the refs (which were certainly a story here), etc. We don’t spend two seconds talking about whether or not their behavior on/off the court was acceptable.

Back to being an embarrassed Iowan…the repeated awful comments are not a good look. Not enough people celebrating a fantastic season, too many going on and on about unsportsmanlike behavior. The passive aggressive “way to play with CLASS” is obnoxious.

yes, yes, yes

I am now having to avoid social media. It went from fun to vitrol overnight.

[lilac05]

eddy, I did see one post this morning about Jasmine Carson’s amazing game.

But even the comments section of that was awful. People couldn’t compliment her without putting Reese down.

Iowa Nice..you’re doing it wrong. (Well, that’s a different topic for a different day. Some would argue that they’re doing it perfectly right.)

[pixy0stix]

Apr 3, 2023 9:24:16 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

I wish the narrative about sportsmanship and double standards would be based on a different example. It most certainly exists and should be talked about. I’ve never been a fan of the “can’t see me” gesture, and didn’t think it needed the coverage that it got. (We certainly wouldn’t spend a second talking about something similar from men.) When you look at the still shots of the same gesture done between the two players, they look exactly the same. But at the very end of the game, the LSU player was running around CC repeatedly making the gesture and then pointing to her ring finger. I disagree that it was “in the same spirit.”

I really wish I had a diagram of when it was ok to taunt and when it wasn't. Because really, from the outside, it looks like, "Well, it's ok if this one player talks shit during the game to the team that's losing because it made the game fun. But it's not ok when my team didn't win because it wasn't fun for me."

[PinkSquirrel]

I don't think it's really even fair to say Clark and Reese did the same thing.
Reese's taunting was a direct reaction to Clark's behavior, she didn't just do it because.

[lilac05]

pixy0stix, I get it. I don’t like any of it, and never excused it from CC, either. I especially hate when CC reportedly made a comment to another player to shut up. That’s not OK. Ever. I don’t care what team you’re on.

I still stand by this particular instance being different. However, I also still stand by there being a double standard that is at play overall, and that’s not OK. And the behavior of Iowa fans in response to what should have just been a passing thing is especially gross.

[mcppalmbeach]

It looked like Reese is a woman who has had enough and you can’t blame her one little bit for that. Clearly there’s a double standard when one is cheered and the other jeered.

On the other hand, woman or man, I just personally don’t like trash talking. Even if people say it makes the game more “fun.” I’m boring like that. I have one son who is on a teams with his bffs and they are trash talkers and I tell him every time to knock it off. They mostly trash talk amongst themselves about the other team, not to the other team. People who are confident and the best at what they do know it and everybody else knows it and they don’t need to trash talk.

[ksun]

Trash talking is trash talking and it's part of the game, period. I don't care if people trash talk - but the racist undertones of everyone going after Reese and completely disregarding that Clark does it ALL the time can't be downplayed. Clark does it so much there's even a gif of her doing it in a promotional video giphy.com/gifs/marchmadness-iowa-hawkeyes-wfinalfour-aBoA4dHrdYIt70IwAR

[BlondeSpiders]

This seems apt.

[wawa]

count on the Baltimore sun to have Reese's back (she's a local girl) with a front page (below the fold) pic and positive headline.


story here:  
digitaledition.baltimoresun.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?guid=061211a0-b9fa-4908-b796-0c5ef3ff4b6c

[eddy]

Edit- Thank goodness it isn't happening


www.cnn.com/2023/04/04/sport/angel-reese-jill-biden-white-house-invite-spt-intl/index.html

[ECB]

Apr 4, 2023 8:13:16 GMT -5 wawa said:

count on the Baltimore sun to have Reese's back (she's a local girl) with a front page (below the fold) pic and positive headline.
View Attachment

story here:  
digitaledition.baltimoresun.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?guid=061211a0-b9fa-4908-b796-0c5ef3ff4b6c

I saw this as I was waiting for coffee.  I was glad to see it.  

I hate taunting in general - across the board.  When I FIRST saw her do it, I thought "really?", but I checked myself and thought "but wait... what has Caitlin done?" and yup, she's done the same.  So...  

And I really can't get into the "but it was different!".  Does it matter?  If it were exactly the same - all this commentary and backlash would absolutely still be happening.  Because it's not about "how it was different".  It was about WHO was doing it. 

[AJL]

Apr 2, 2023 20:52:29 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Apr 2, 2023 20:21:48 GMT -5 erbear said:

I was also really disappointed with the lack of sportsmanship by Angel Reese after the game. It bummed me out to see kids with such lack of grace? general kindness? following a game they won. I feel some kinda way about this (and I’m usually on board with confidence and even a little cockiness in women’s sports)

But didn’t Caitlin Clark do that same gesture in the previous game? I feel like there is a double standard.

She sure did! I smell double standard with some top notes of racism, perhaps (NOT from erbear, but from general commentary of fans).