@Kansas City Ralph Yarl

[mpm]

I’m going to be honest, if I heard gunshots in our neighborhood we’d all be hiding and would absolutely not go look out the window if we heard a door knock. And I don’t have a video doorbell because I’m GBCN poor. If you hear an obvious threat outside I don’t think it’s unreasonable to try to keep your own family safe from it if you have no idea whether that threat is still out there. Idk, maybe some neighbors are racist assholes but maybe others were just scared. The problem here is the guns.

[cattledogkisses]

Apr 17, 2023 22:00:34 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

I'm watching coverage on MSNBC and I'm really aggravated how they keep referring to the shooter as "the homeowner." Now that his identity has been revealed either call him by his name or by what he actually is- the shooter.
I also believe the shooter that he felt scared in the moment. That doesn't excuse his actions, though, just proves how dangerous and irresponsible it is for this man to have a gun. If a grown ass man can't manage his emotions enough in the presence of a minor than he is clearly not qualified to own a firearm. None of this would have happened if he didn't have a damn gun. A loaded gun.

I mean, if he was scared he could have just... not opened the door.  (I know you're not excusing him, just pointing that out.)

[pixy0stix]

I think there's a place in the conversation for the societal fear we now have in opening our doors to strangers. While guns and racism are central to what happened here, so is the conditioning to fear anyone we don't know coming to our doors. That's why the old fucker had his gun when approaching the door. It's all tied together.

[Velar Fricative]

Apr 18, 2023 8:09:20 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I think there's a place in the conversation for the societal fear we now have in opening our doors to strangers. While guns and racism are central to what happened here, so is the conditioning to fear anyone we don't know coming to our doors. That's why the old fucker had his gun when approaching the door. It's all tied together.

I agree with this, even as someone who feels nervous opening my door when I'm not expecting someone. 

And one could say that the prevalence of doorbell cameras would help the situation, but I think instead they are exacerbating our fears re: NextDoor complaints like @villainv said. Paranoid people with guns is a deadly combination.

[mpm]

Apr 18, 2023 8:09:20 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I think there's a place in the conversation for the societal fear we now have in opening our doors to strangers. While guns and racism are central to what happened here, so is the conditioning to fear anyone we don't know coming to our doors. That's why the old fucker had his gun when approaching the door. It's all tied together.

I agree. But there’s also an important distinction between opening your door to a stranger and opening your door immediately after hearing gunshots outside.

[pixy0stix]

Apr 18, 2023 8:19:23 GMT -5 mpm said:

Apr 18, 2023 8:09:20 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I think there's a place in the conversation for the societal fear we now have in opening our doors to strangers. While guns and racism are central to what happened here, so is the conditioning to fear anyone we don't know coming to our doors. That's why the old fucker had his gun when approaching the door. It's all tied together.

I agree. But there’s also an important distinction between opening your door to a stranger and opening your door immediately after hearing gunshots outside.

I doubt they heard the gunshots or registered what they were. I've lived in houses where we were home and didn't hear shots a few houses down. We only knew something was going on when the cops showed up. People always act like it's a giant sonic boom, and in reality when you're inside, it's just a quiet pop.

[mpm]

Apr 18, 2023 8:27:13 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Apr 18, 2023 8:19:23 GMT -5 mpm said:

I agree. But there’s also an important distinction between opening your door to a stranger and opening your door immediately after hearing gunshots outside.

I doubt they heard the gunshots or registered what they were. I've lived in houses where we were home and didn't hear shots a few houses down. We only knew something was going on when the cops showed up. People always act like it's a giant sonic boom, and in reality when you're inside, it's just a quiet pop.

I think it’s a stretch for us to make assumptions about what someone else heard or registered. As I said initially, IF they heard gunshots, concern for their own safety isn’t unreasonable.

[penguingrrl]

I don’t think twice before answering my door and it saddens me that as a culture so many do, and I’m sure that was undoubtedly a factor here. I highly doubt anyone realized what was going on since I believe gunshots are actually fairly quiet. I would easily believe, sadly, that one or two houses may have had a ring or other fancy doorbell, looked to see they didn’t know the person and went on with their night. It’s completely fucked up.

However, giving at least some grace, at 10:30 at night there’s a good chance I wouldn’t hear a knock at my door honestly. I’m usually asleep by then and our walls are thick and we likely wouldn’t hear the front door from our bedroom (we don’t have a doorbell at all, just an old fashioned knocker, which isn’t very loud). It’s also possible one or two of the homes was unoccupied at the time.

[Aloe Vera]

Apr 18, 2023 7:42:11 GMT -5 mpm said:

I’m going to be honest, if I heard gunshots in our neighborhood we’d all be hiding and would absolutely not go look out the window if we heard a door knock. And I don’t have a video doorbell because I’m GBCN poor. If you hear an obvious threat outside I don’t think it’s unreasonable to try to keep your own family safe from it if you have no idea whether that threat is still out there. Idk, maybe some neighbors are racist assholes but maybe others were just scared. The problem here is the guns.

I recommend a Wyze camera. They cost less than $35 and that's it. No subcription needed. www.wyze.com/
It get a push notification on my phone when it detects the delivery people. Love it.

[pixy0stix]

Apr 18, 2023 8:37:37 GMT -5 mpm said:

Apr 18, 2023 8:27:13 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I doubt they heard the gunshots or registered what they were. I've lived in houses where we were home and didn't hear shots a few houses down. We only knew something was going on when the cops showed up. People always act like it's a giant sonic boom, and in reality when you're inside, it's just a quiet pop.

I think it’s a stretch for us to make assumptions about what someone else heard or registered. As I said initially, IF they heard gunshots, concern for their own safety isn’t unreasonable.

I agree. But your first post did illustrate perfectly our culture of fear, because your first assumption was that they heard shots and were scared. We justify a lot of our reactions based on the fact that fear is an acceptable first response. Which circles right back to why gun culture is predominantly accepted.

This reminds me a lot of Jonathan Ferrell's case who knocked on a white lady's door in the middle of the night following a car crash to ask for help. She also didn't answer her door, and called the police. Which, triggered the last round of "do you answer your door" posts. She didn't answer her door because she was afraid, and her demeanor when calling the police led to them assuming he was trying to break down her door to do who knows what. The police shot him immediately after arriving and killed him. Deep down, at the heart of everything in our country, is an all abiding fear of "other". Gun culture, conservative culture, religion, it's all tied to our very core fear that we have coded into our society.

[mpm]

Apr 18, 2023 8:53:04 GMT -5 Aloe Vera said:

Apr 18, 2023 7:42:11 GMT -5 mpm said:

I’m going to be honest, if I heard gunshots in our neighborhood we’d all be hiding and would absolutely not go look out the window if we heard a door knock. And I don’t have a video doorbell because I’m GBCN poor. If you hear an obvious threat outside I don’t think it’s unreasonable to try to keep your own family safe from it if you have no idea whether that threat is still out there. Idk, maybe some neighbors are racist assholes but maybe others were just scared. The problem here is the guns.

I recommend a Wyze camera. They cost less than $35 and that's it. No subcription needed. www.wyze.com/
It get a push notification on my phone when it detects the delivery people. Love it.

I have a dog. Trust, we know when the delivery people arrive. 😂

[wildrice]

Apr 18, 2023 8:44:40 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I don’t think twice before answering my door and it saddens me that as a culture so many do, and I’m sure that was undoubtedly a factor here. I highly doubt anyone realized what was going on since I believe gunshots are actually fairly quiet. I would easily believe, sadly, that one or two houses may have had a ring or other fancy doorbell, looked to see they didn’t know the person and went on with their night. It’s completely fucked up.

However, giving at least some grace, at 10:30 at night there’s a good chance I wouldn’t hear a knock at my door honestly. I’m usually asleep by then and our walls are thick and we likely wouldn’t hear the front door from our bedroom (we don’t have a doorbell at all, just an old fashioned knocker, which isn’t very loud). It’s also possible one or two of the homes was unoccupied at the time.

I agree with both of your points - we wouldn't hear someone knocking on our door at 10:30pm either. We don't have a doorbell so unless they were pounding loudly - and maybe even then - there is no way we'd hear it as our bedroom is a floor up and at the back of the house and we turn on our box fan when we're sleeping specifically to drown out noise.

I've been thinking about getting a Ring because I usually open the door without any thought and we get people selling stuff from time to time so it would be nice to avoid that. However, I really can't relate to being fearful of opening the door to a stranger, especially a young person. I can't imagine walking through the world thinking that everyone was out to get me at all times. That's a sad way to live, especially in a world filled with mostly good people. 

I am glad Ralph survived and I hope he manages to get through this without a ton of damage to his mental health. Fuck guns and this ridiculous culture that makes people think they need to answer their door with one. 

[mpm]

Apr 18, 2023 9:00:19 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Apr 18, 2023 8:37:37 GMT -5 mpm said:

I think it’s a stretch for us to make assumptions about what someone else heard or registered. As I said initially, IF they heard gunshots, concern for their own safety isn’t unreasonable.

I agree. But your first post did illustrate perfectly our culture of fear, because your first assumption was that they heard shots and were scared. We justify a lot of our reactions based on the fact that fear is an acceptable first response. Which circles right back to why gun culture is predominantly accepted.

This reminds me a lot of Jonathan Ferrell's case who knocked on a white lady's door in the middle of the night following a car crash to ask for help. She also didn't answer her door, and called the police. Which, triggered the last round of "do you answer your door" posts. She didn't answer her door because she was afraid, and her demeanor when calling the police led to them assuming he was trying to break down her door to do who knows what. The police shot him immediately after arriving and killed him. Deep down, at the heart of everything in our country, is an all abiding fear of "other". Gun culture, conservative culture, religion, it's all tied to our very core fear that we have coded into our society.

I made no assumptions. I said IF someone heard gunshots. And I said that because there WERE gunshots. No that’s not a sound I’ve personally heard in real life, but l maintain that if anyone did hear gunshots, it’s not unreasonable to be afraid of them. Guns are dangerous and guns being fired isn’t something I want my family to be around. I’m a little surprised a desire to not be around gunshots is not a universal opinion here.

While I agree that there is a general culture of fear of others that is absolutely being stoked by conservative culture, I disagree that fear is the only or the main reason why most people don’t answer their doors these days. I often don’t answer my door when I’m not expecting someone simply because I’m not wearing a bra. And I’m going to stop there though it seems really disrespectful to add my millennial opinions on showing up to someone’s house unexpected to a thread where an unhinged man shot a kid. There is an important conversation to be had about what in our culture caused this man to act in this way, but I’m uncomfortable with the assumptions that are drawing people to assign culpability to all the rest of the neighbors as well.

[scout8]

I lived for almost 30 years in Chicago. I've heard more gunshots than I could count. I've also witnessed a shooting on the street. My instinct was never to go open the door or look out the window. Instead, I would get away from the windows so a stray bullet wouldn't hit me. When I witnessed the shooting on the street, I got out of there as fast as I could. I'm not sure what I would have done if someone was banging on my door after I heard gunshots. Thankfully, it never happened, but I would probably have called the police rather than open my door. I don't think this makes me a bad person, nor do I think those other neighbors were bad people.

[yellow23]

I saw a description of the neighborhood that said it was mostly older home owners. I don’t know if it’s accurate, just what I read. I could see some of them being asleep at that time.
About a month ago I woke up in the morning and saw on my phone that a man had rang our doorbell around 12:30 AM. None of us woke up to the doorbell, if we didn’t have a camera we would have never known someone came to our door that night. I have no idea who he was or what he wanted.
It’s horrible if these homeowners knew a kid needed help on their doorstep and refused to open the door, but I can’t assume they were all home/awake/heard the door. I’m disgusted that the person that did finally open the door made the poor kid lay on the ground with his hands up.

[Velar Fricative]

I also think there’s a link with sprawl too. People want to be as far from neighbors as possible and live in quiet, more isolated areas. So they aren’t used to unexpected people knocking on their door, which feeds the fear.

I live in a city so with more people comes more expectation that people will knock on my door for harmless reasons. OTOH, when I canvas for elections I do feel anxious that someone like the shooter in KC will answer their door the same way (lots of LEOs around here so guns aren’t non-existent). And I mentioned earlier that I do feel nervous answering my door but that is directly due to being afraid of my abusive father coming by again after he left, though it’s been 20+ years now so I should be over it, which is why I basically force myself to open the door even if it means listening to someone preach about Jesus to me in my parents’ native language because they must have seen my maiden name somewhere even though I was born in Queens.

[msmerymac]

Apr 18, 2023 8:15:20 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Apr 18, 2023 8:09:20 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I think there's a place in the conversation for the societal fear we now have in opening our doors to strangers. While guns and racism are central to what happened here, so is the conditioning to fear anyone we don't know coming to our doors. That's why the old fucker had his gun when approaching the door. It's all tied together.

I agree with this, even as someone who feels nervous opening my door when I'm not expecting someone. 

And one could say that the prevalence of doorbell cameras would help the situation, but I think instead they are exacerbating our fears re: NextDoor complaints like @villainv said. Paranoid people with guns is a deadly combination.

Yes, doorbell cameras absolutely play on people's fears that you NEED more security because someone bad could be lurking on the other side of your door - or at least stealing your amazon packages. 

And re: sprawl, so many people mention not ever using their front doors, just the door to their attached garage where they get in their car and drive everywhere, so no wonder people are disconnected from neighbors and neighborhoods. 

[msmerymac]

A 20-year-old woman was also shot dead in rural upstate NY when she and her friends turned their car around in a driveway after getting lost.

(Gift link)
wapo.st/41Vnhqr

She was white, as was the shooter, so it wasn't a racist incident, but it sure as hell was a gun/paranoia problem.

[wawa]

I feel like a troll even bringing the topic of answering your door up because I KNOW that it's going to result in exactly this where people get defensive and specific about the story's circumstances and their own circumstances and allllll these details. it happens every.single.time. And my theory is that it's because we can see ourselves doing exactly what happened here with the neighbors and we have to find a way to make that image go away because it feels like shit. cognitive dissonance is no fun.

And if you just read that and though, "but that doesn't apply to me because reasons!" then there are two options here 1. it really doesn't apply to you. Know thysself friend and rest easy that I'm not talking about you. (like if you live somewhere that it's really truly not safe...then definitely not talking about you) or 2. Hit dogs and all that. But either way please for the love of god do not tell me how you sleep with earplugs.

I think just the fact that this swiftly turned into "cheap ring alternative recs!" is telling. there is a really pervasive obsession with safety and security within your home no matter how safe our homes actually are, and for the racist assholes that translates to answering your door with a gun or calling the cops because somebody knocked and as we see, the result is violence for black people. I'm not saying you should hear gunshots and stick your head out going "yooooohoo! is everybody ok?!?" but we do have to grapple with the reality that if it's normal to be afraid of strangers at your door, then it's going to be "racist asshole normal" for racist assholes to answer with guns.

[taratru]

The longer I'm away from having to be in this, the more and more I realize it's the fucking guns. Everyone is so afraid of the guns and the people who may have guns and being shot by guns and guns guns guns. Add a layer of omgwtfblackpeopleahhhh and on and on it goes.

I'm heartbroken for this child. I'm enraged at the response. I'm horrified that America is still supposed to be some beacon of greatness. It's bullshit, and it's all either racism and/or guns.

Sorry. I know that's not helpful, but it's just so fucking easy to live without guns, and I just cannot fathom why there seems to be no end to this.

[bronxgirl]

Apr 18, 2023 7:50:40 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Apr 17, 2023 22:00:34 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

I'm watching coverage on MSNBC and I'm really aggravated how they keep referring to the shooter as "the homeowner." Now that his identity has been revealed either call him by his name or by what he actually is- the shooter.
I also believe the shooter that he felt scared in the moment. That doesn't excuse his actions, though, just proves how dangerous and irresponsible it is for this man to have a gun. If a grown ass man can't manage his emotions enough in the presence of a minor than he is clearly not qualified to own a firearm. None of this would have happened if he didn't have a damn gun. A loaded gun.

I mean, if he was scared he could have just... not opened the door.  (I know you're not excusing him, just pointing that out.)

He didn't open the door. he shot him through the window. Regardless, my point is that it's ridiculous to argue about other people's emotions. The point is his actions. Whether or not he felt fearful, emotions shouldn't be managed through the use of a gun. The problem isn't if he chose to answer or not answer the door. the problem is the f'ing gun.

[penguingrrl]

Apr 18, 2023 11:26:59 GMT -5 taratru said:

The longer I'm away from having to be in this, the more and more I realize it's the fucking guns. Everyone is so afraid of the guns and the people who may have guns and being shot by guns and guns guns guns. Add a layer of omgwtfblackpeopleahhhh and on and on it goes.

I'm heartbroken for this child. I'm enraged at the response. I'm horrified that America is still supposed to be some beacon of greatness. It's bullshit, and it's all either racism and/or guns.

Sorry. I know that's not helpful, but it's just so fucking easy to live without guns, and I just cannot fathom why there seems to be no end to this.

Of course it’s the guns. In a 24 hour period this happened, there was a mass shooting at a party, and someone was murdered by a gun for turning around in a driveway. Guns and racist are just another day in America. 

[lilac05]

I finally saw the mugshot of the shooter. Unless the image I saw has been mirrored, it looks like he has a left facial droop. It makes me wonder if he has previously had a right sided stroke. Deficits following a right sided stroke can include personality changes (either depression or aggression), impulsivity, inappropriateness, and deficits in recognition of emotion on faces. They’re also generally unaware of their deficits.

I don’t know his story, but the SLP in me is curious of his medical history. It makes me think about some of my patients I have and how important those conversations we have before patient go home truly are. We work so hard to make sure people are safe in their discharge environment, but at the end of the day, patients and their families have choices and we cannot force anything.

It’s very possible he’s been an aggressive, racist asshole his whole life. It’s also possible he has had a life-altering medical event, in which case, someone should have been making sure he did not have access to a gun.

Regardless, it highlights our need for massive changes in gun laws. This man absolutely should not have had a gun in his home.

[NewOrleans]

Why would it seem equally likely, in the same state where Mike Brown was murdered and the state of Dred Scott and the Missouri Compromise, that an elderly man is a stroke patient as he is a racist?

He himself said the child was big and scared him. We have heard this before.

This man doesn’t need us on this board to take up for him. He has his guns, the NRA, and the white nationalists on his side.

[NewOrleans]

Apr 18, 2023 11:29:15 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Apr 18, 2023 7:50:40 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

I mean, if he was scared he could have just... not opened the door.  (I know you're not excusing him, just pointing that out.)

He didn't open the door. he shot him through the window. Regardless, my point is that it's ridiculous to argue about other people's emotions. The point is his actions. Whether or not he felt fearful, emotions shouldn't be managed through the use of a gun. The problem isn't if he chose to answer or not answer the door. the problem is the f'ing gun.

If defense evokes castle doctrine, then the question will involve fearful emotions.

 

[ECB]

Apr 18, 2023 16:18:55 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Apr 18, 2023 11:29:15 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

He didn't open the door. he shot him through the window. Regardless, my point is that it's ridiculous to argue about other people's emotions. The point is his actions. Whether or not he felt fearful, emotions shouldn't be managed through the use of a gun. The problem isn't if he chose to answer or not answer the door. the problem is the f'ing gun.

If defense evokes castle doctrine, then the question will involve fearful emotions.

 

I know that this is what every case like this will try to go for, and I'm scared if it gets upheld.  If our country is going to go down the path that we can't ring doorbells or turn our cars around w/o getting shot at - it's truly the wild west.  

[lilac05]

Apr 18, 2023 16:13:08 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Why would it seem equally likely, in the same state where Mike Brown was murdered and the state of Dred Scott and the Missouri Compromise, that an elderly man is a stroke patient as he is a racist?

He himself said the child was big and scared him. We have heard this before.

This man doesn’t need us on this board to take up for him. He has his guns, the NRA, and the white nationalists on his side.

I’m not saying it’s equally likely. And I have not once said that racism was not a factor. It absolutely is. He would not have shot a white woman. I’m saying that two things can be true. And one thing could impact his ability to control the other. That doesn’t let him off the hook or defend him.

I realize this is my bias based on my professional experience, and it’s quite possible he has not had a stroke. But I’ve been cussed at and swung at by too many reportedly previously kind and gentle people to just write off anyone as just a pure asshole, especially once I saw the picture.

[hermione]

It feels like a lot of mental gymnastics are happening in this post. I am not sure what they are supposed to accomplish. A white guy shot a black kid because that child dared to ring his doorbell. The prosecuting attorney declared there is a racial component to the case. The shooter's cognitive ability and/or his level of fear don't change that.

[maudefindlay]

abc13.com/texas-cheerleaders-shot-elgin-tello-rodriguez-heather-roth/13152810/

Can't get into the wrong car either. I'm guessing the shooter was not white as he was arrested right away.

I've both accidentally grabbed the door handle of the wrong car (never got in) and also 2x had a kid get in my car by mistake. In all those situations I never thought defense was needed, in fact both kids were scared and embarrassed and I reassured them it was OK.

[scm1011]

Apr 19, 2023 8:03:31 GMT -5 maudefindlay said:

abc13.com/texas-cheerleaders-shot-elgin-tello-rodriguez-heather-roth/13152810/

Can't get into the wrong car either. I'm guessing the shooter was not white as he was arrested right away.

I've both accidentally grabbed the door handle of the wrong car (never got in) and also 2x had a kid get in my car by mistake. In all those situations I never thought defense was needed, in fact both kids were scared and embarrassed and I reassured them it was OK.

Jesus. As the owner of a grey Honda CR-V (of which there are a ZILLION) I have done this more times than I can count.