Covid - a thread (contain @)

[pixy0stix]

Apr 29, 2023 10:11:22 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Is this what inspired this thread - the study talking about mask interventions? I’m still a little confused.

abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/masks-effective-study-respected-group-misinterpreted/story?id=97846561

Yes, because God forbid someone posts something in passing without a fully formed correct opinion. Lol! I fully recognize that I'm part of the problem, but we can't even have discussions talking about new results anymore. I thought Fauci would be safe to post about. My bad.

ETA: this is the source study that was being talked about - www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abi9069

[NewOrleans]

Apr 30, 2023 11:27:25 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Apr 29, 2023 10:11:22 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Is this what inspired this thread - the study talking about mask interventions? I’m still a little confused.

abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/masks-effective-study-respected-group-misinterpreted/story?id=97846561

Yes, because God forbid someone posts something in passing without a fully formed correct opinion. Lol! I fully recognize that I'm part of the problem, but we can't even have discussions talking about new results anymore. I thought Fauci would be safe to post about. My bad.

ETA: this is the source study that was being talked about - www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abi9069

I’m getting Bad Gateway on this one. The Fauci blurb you posted in the other one was him saying that consistent use of high-quality masks (as you know many of us are committed to) is effective for those individuals, which is why we continue to do so. No one is taking issue with your Dr. F stuff.  

why are you so annoyed with us? Beyond our annoying selves, lol.  

[TR]

Apr 30, 2023 12:32:17 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Apr 30, 2023 11:27:25 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Yes, because God forbid someone posts something in passing without a fully formed correct opinion. Lol! I fully recognize that I'm part of the problem, but we can't even have discussions talking about new results anymore. I thought Fauci would be safe to post about. My bad.

ETA: this is the source study that was being talked about - www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abi9069

I’m getting Bad Gateway on this one. The Fauci blurb you posted in the other one was him saying that consistent use of high-quality masks (as you know many of us are committed to) is effective for those individuals, which is why we continue to do so. No one is taking issue with your Dr. F stuff.  

why are you so annoyed with us? Beyond our annoying selves, lol.  

Well, there seems to be a difference between individual vs population level benefits and this thread has felt less like "I do this for ME" individual protections and more like "I do this for everyone else and if you don't, you're a selfish asshole." population level protections.

[NewOrleans]

May 1, 2023 11:21:30 GMT -5 TR said:

Apr 30, 2023 12:32:17 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I’m getting Bad Gateway on this one. The Fauci blurb you posted in the other one was him saying that consistent use of high-quality masks (as you know many of us are committed to) is effective for those individuals, which is why we continue to do so. No one is taking issue with your Dr. F stuff.  

why are you so annoyed with us? Beyond our annoying selves, lol.  

Well, there seems to be a difference between individual vs population level benefits and this thread has felt less like "I do this for ME" individual protections and more like "I do this for everyone else and if you don't, you're a selfish asshole." population level protections.

I’m not calling anyone selfish nor an asshole.  I’m also not going reassure anyone they aren’t. I’m bummed that that’s what you are getting out of the information we / I post, though.  ☹️

[TR]

May 1, 2023 20:12:34 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

May 1, 2023 11:21:30 GMT -5 TR said:

Well, there seems to be a difference between individual vs population level benefits and this thread has felt less like "I do this for ME" individual protections and more like "I do this for everyone else and if you don't, you're a selfish asshole." population level protections.

I’m not calling anyone selfish nor an asshole.  I’m also not going reassure anyone they aren’t. I’m bummed that that’s what you are getting out of the information we / I post, though.  ☹️

I apologize, I reread and it’s not really this thread, but more posts from the Biden thread.

[NewOrleans]

I finally read the whole NYT article Pixy posted previously. Fauci was not discussing mask mandates at all, let alone asserting they were a mistake or ineffective. We know people did not wear them with fidelity, so of course he tosses out lower numbers for . He himself says America did terribly, circling us back to the failures of the Biden administration and the nation, which is in part how this thread was born. Which reminds me tat it’s now May.

[NewOrleans]

May 1, 2023 20:15:19 GMT -5 TR said:

May 1, 2023 20:12:34 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I’m not calling anyone selfish nor an asshole.  I’m also not going reassure anyone they aren’t. I’m bummed that that’s what you are getting out of the information we / I post, though.  ☹️

I apologize, I reread and it’s not really this thread, but more posts from the Biden thread.

Aw thanks. No apology needed whatsoever, though.  

[tacokick]

Research suggests about 10% to 20% of people experience mid- or long-term issues from COVID-19 but that’s still not enough to get people to mask at an individual level. That’s one of the reasons why there has been a push for people to be reminded that even you aren’t concerned enough to mask for yourself, other people need your help so they can live their own lives or at the very least do things like receive basic medical care safely.

I think it’s easy to understand the frustration many people have.

www.stroke.org/en/news/2022/03/31/after-covid-19-experts-say-watch-for-these-potential-heart-and-brain-problems

[chickadee77]

I have a question that's @, but unrelated to the current discussion (I'm sorry!)

Pre-covid, many employers had written in their handbooks, etc., that one cannot work full-time whilst simultaneously being a full-time caregiver to children while WFH. That kind of went away during covid due to schools being screwy and all, and I haven't heard boo about it since, but am aware that a LOT of people are WFH while homeschooling or doing distance learning with their kids. (I am not one of them, lol, but this seems super common on HS boards where I am active).

Is this going to become another educational hurdle when the emergency ends? Or has this always been up to individual employers? Or have things shifted permanently and this will no longer even be on anyone's radar? I can't find any info out there, and was wondering about others' thoughts.

Not trying to derail, just curious and didn't know where else to put this.

[tacokick]

May 2, 2023 8:34:11 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

I have a question that's @, but unrelated to the current discussion (I'm sorry!)

Pre-covid, many employers had written in their handbooks, etc., that one cannot work full-time whilst simultaneously being a full-time caregiver to children while WFH. That kind of went away during covid due to schools being screwy and all, and I haven't heard boo about it since, but am aware that a LOT of people are WFH while homeschooling or doing distance learning with their kids. (I am not one of them, lol, but this seems super common on HS boards where I am active).

Is this going to become another educational hurdle when the emergency ends? Or has this always been up to individual employers? Or have things shifted permanently and this will no longer even be on anyone's radar? I can't find any info out there, and was wondering about others' thoughts.

Not trying to derail, just curious and didn't know where else to put this.

I think it’s always been up to the individual employer. I’ve never come across a state passing any guidelines or laws about it.

I think a lot of businesses have realized it’s in their best interest to stay flexible but they don’t have to.

Personally, I know a people who for over a year now have been required to show proof of childcare if they work from home full time. Exceptions are made of the kid is sick but it’s expected that they aren’t home during work hours or are with another parent/childcare worker. I’ve seen this in ads for remote work as well.

[hermione]

Caveat: I agree that masks should be mandatory in healthcare settings forever and ever. Public transportation too.

I find it troublesome that when anyone points out that masks did have negative effects, especially with kids, we're labeled as people who don't care about others, ableist, and worse. Once vaccinated, mask wearing absolutely did effect my kid. She begged not to wear it. She sobbed on the way to school every day screaming that she'd done everything she was supposed to do. She developed body focused repetitive behaviors. She exhibited other symptoms of anxiety and depression. She knew that continuing to wear a mask was not a punishment but was very clear that it felt like one. That all went away when we let her stop masking everywhere. After years of doing everything we could to protect not only ourselves but everyone else, I absolutely chose to prioritize my tween's mental health over anything else.

[StrawberryBlondie]

May 2, 2023 8:34:11 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

I have a question that's @, but unrelated to the current discussion (I'm sorry!)

Pre-covid, many employers had written in their handbooks, etc., that one cannot work full-time whilst simultaneously being a full-time caregiver to children while WFH. That kind of went away during covid due to schools being screwy and all, and I haven't heard boo about it since, but am aware that a LOT of people are WFH while homeschooling or doing distance learning with their kids. (I am not one of them, lol, but this seems super common on HS boards where I am active).

Is this going to become another educational hurdle when the emergency ends? Or has this always been up to individual employers? Or have things shifted permanently and this will no longer even be on anyone's radar? I can't find any info out there, and was wondering about others' thoughts.

Not trying to derail, just curious and didn't know where else to put this.

I think it's always been up to individual employers. Our rule was that you had to have childcare on your WFH days, and obviously that was relaxed during covid, but even while that was the rule, most departments would allow you to WFH if your kid was sick, for example, because most managers would prefer you get some work done rather than zero work done.

I'm not sure what our rule is now because we're kind of past those days but I know it's not uncommon to be on a teams meeting and someone having to duck out to deal with a kid.

[fortnightlily]

@
I was long frustrated by it feeling like all discussions of mask mandates in schools treated all ages as equal, when it's pretty clear that the practicality and risk/benefit calculus is different in preschools and elementary schools than in middle and high schools. Because of a) 5th grade and below exposure is more cohorted for kids and staff because generally you spend the whole day with the same group, b) risk of severe outcomes variances between the very young, the young, and then teens, c) the ability for young kids to find well-fitted masks and wear them properly/effectively for long stretches of time vs teens, and d) the social and learning challenges covering faces may pose is different for young kids who are still learning the basic mechanics of literacy, spoken language, and social-emotional cues.

[mpm]

May 2, 2023 8:46:30 GMT -5 hermione said:

Caveat: I agree that masks should be mandatory in healthcare settings forever and ever. Public transportation too.

I find it troublesome that when anyone points out that masks did have negative effects, especially with kids, we're labeled as people who don't care about others, ableist, and worse. Once vaccinated, mask wearing absolutely did affect my kid. She begged not to wear it. She sobbed on the way to school every day screaming that she'd done everything she was supposed to do. She developed body focused repetitive behaviors. She exhibited other symptoms of anxiety and depression. She knew that continuing to wear a mask was not a punishment but was very clear that it felt like one. That all went away when we let her stop masking everywhere. After years of doing everything we could to protect not only ourselves but everyone else, I absolutely chose to prioritize my tween's mental health over anything else.

First, I think it’s because the “negative effects” of wearing a mask are often discussed in a biased way, citing anecdotal experience (as you did here) rather than scientific evidence, and is very often couched in a way that minimizes the risk of actual covid infection.

Second, vaccination with currently available vaccines does not prevent infection, and even mild infection can lead to long-term health effects, the full extent of which are currently still unknown, that some who even have normally functioning immune systems see as worse or worthy of more caution than any perceived downsides of wearing a mask. So when we talk about masking or not masking, we’re really talking about accepting some regularity in covid infection or not. And for those who are very at risk from even acute infection, it can feel like you are being sacrificed when those around you are choosing to accept a base level of community infection at a rate that could kill you.

@@@ And of course it’s not fun looking or feeling like you’re different from everyone else, and for those of us who are still having our children mask due to these risks, it can feel like an attack on these choices to hear someone who’s already made their decision to not mask their own children discuss the “negative effects” of something they’ve already chosen not to do anymore. If you don’t want your kid to wear a mask anymore, just don’t do it. No one’s making you, and no matter where this pandemic goes or what happens in the next one, we’re probably never going to get to a point of public buy-in on masking on a large scale ever again. We are quickly moving to a place where masking on an individual level could soon be seen as unacceptable or even outright banned in some places. So those who are concerned about this and want to mask really don’t want to invite a conversation about “negative effects.” They just want to try to keep their families safe the only way they can right now.

[pixy0stix]

@@@
Non-specific to anyone - but please stop @ within sentences. Put at the beginning of the segment where you will be talking about kids.

[hermione]

May 2, 2023 9:34:08 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 2, 2023 8:46:30 GMT -5 hermione said:

Caveat: I agree that masks should be mandatory in healthcare settings forever and ever. Public transportation too.

I find it troublesome that when anyone points out that masks did have negative effects, especially with kids, we're labeled as people who don't care about others, ableist, and worse. Once vaccinated, mask wearing absolutely did affect my kid. She begged not to wear it. She sobbed on the way to school every day screaming that she'd done everything she was supposed to do. She developed body focused repetitive behaviors. She exhibited other symptoms of anxiety and depression. She knew that continuing to wear a mask was not a punishment but was very clear that it felt like one. That all went away when we let her stop masking everywhere. After years of doing everything we could to protect not only ourselves but everyone else, I absolutely chose to prioritize my tween's mental health over anything else.

First, I think it’s because the “negative effects” of wearing a mask are often discussed in a biased way, citing anecdotal experience (as you did here) rather than scientific evidence, and is very often couched in a way that minimizes the risk of actual covid infection.

Second, vaccination with currently available vaccines does not prevent infection, and even mild infection can lead to long-term health effects, the full extent of which are currently still unknown, that some who even have normally functioning immune systems see as worse or worthy of more caution than any perceived downsides of wearing a mask. So when we talk about masking or not masking, we’re really talking about accepting some regularity in covid infection or not. And for those who are very at risk from even acute infection, it can feel like you are being sacrificed when those around you are choosing to accept a base level of community infection at a rate that could kill you.

@@@ And of course it’s not fun looking or feeling like you’re different from everyone else, and for those of us who are still having our children mask due to these risks, it can feel like an attack on these choices to hear someone who’s already made their decision to not mask their own children discuss the “negative effects” of something they’ve already chosen not to do anymore. If you don’t want your kid to wear a mask anymore, just don’t do it. No one’s making you, and no matter where this pandemic goes or what happens in the next one, we’re probably never going to get to a point of public buy-in on masking on a large scale ever again. We are quickly moving to a place where masking on an individual level could soon be seen as unacceptable or even outright banned in some places. So those who are concerned about this and want to mask really don’t want to invite a conversation about “negative effects.” They just want to try to keep their families safe the only way they can right now.

We can acknowledge that masks are absolutely vital for some people AND that there were negative effects for others, especially kids. I understand that you consider my experience irrelevant and unimportant but I never felt that way about yours.

[mpm]

May 2, 2023 9:58:27 GMT -5 hermione said:

May 2, 2023 9:34:08 GMT -5 mpm said:

First, I think it’s because the “negative effects” of wearing a mask are often discussed in a biased way, citing anecdotal experience (as you did here) rather than scientific evidence, and is very often couched in a way that minimizes the risk of actual covid infection.

Second, vaccination with currently available vaccines does not prevent infection, and even mild infection can lead to long-term health effects, the full extent of which are currently still unknown, that some who even have normally functioning immune systems see as worse or worthy of more caution than any perceived downsides of wearing a mask. So when we talk about masking or not masking, we’re really talking about accepting some regularity in covid infection or not. And for those who are very at risk from even acute infection, it can feel like you are being sacrificed when those around you are choosing to accept a base level of community infection at a rate that could kill you.

@@@ And of course it’s not fun looking or feeling like you’re different from everyone else, and for those of us who are still having our children mask due to these risks, it can feel like an attack on these choices to hear someone who’s already made their decision to not mask their own children discuss the “negative effects” of something they’ve already chosen not to do anymore. If you don’t want your kid to wear a mask anymore, just don’t do it. No one’s making you, and no matter where this pandemic goes or what happens in the next one, we’re probably never going to get to a point of public buy-in on masking on a large scale ever again. We are quickly moving to a place where masking on an individual level could soon be seen as unacceptable or even outright banned in some places. So those who are concerned about this and want to mask really don’t want to invite a conversation about “negative effects.” They just want to try to keep their families safe the only way they can right now.

We can acknowledge that masks are absolutely vital for some people AND that there were negative effects for others, especially kids. I understand that you consider my experience irrelevant and unimportant but I never felt that way about yours.

Where did I call you irrelevant or unimportant? My point was that the conversation itself can be harmful to these who need or want to keep the ability to exercise individual-level masking.

[hermione]

May 2, 2023 10:01:12 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 2, 2023 9:58:27 GMT -5 hermione said:

We can acknowledge that masks are absolutely vital for some people AND that there were negative effects for others, especially kids. I understand that you consider my experience irrelevant and unimportant but I never felt that way about yours.

Where did I call you irrelevant or unimportant? My point was that the conversation itself can be harmful to these who need or want to keep the ability to exercise individual-level masking.

Ok.

[meganew]

May 2, 2023 10:01:12 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 2, 2023 9:58:27 GMT -5 hermione said:

We can acknowledge that masks are absolutely vital for some people AND that there were negative effects for others, especially kids. I understand that you consider my experience irrelevant and unimportant but I never felt that way about yours.

Where did I call you irrelevant or unimportant? My point was that the conversation itself can be harmful to these who need or want to keep the ability to exercise individual-level masking.

You basically said “I don’t want to hear it” when a poster talked about how her kid was negatively affected during the pandemic, much the same way another poster did, and if that’s not screaming that her child’s experiences are unimportant than I don’t know what is.

I don’t want to put anyone on the spot, but I feel like this interaction is exactly what TR’s post made me think of.

[fancynewbeesly]

hermione ,

@

This is my DD. She is almost 12. And unfortunately right now, she pretty much needs to mask up to go places and has such a visceral reaction to masks, that she would rather not go. She never had a problem wearing masks when she needed to when she was younger, due to her being immune compromised for leukemia. But then when she HAD to wear them in fourth and fifth grade it was awful and caused a ton of anxiety (it was required in schools here). Now, we are gearing up to a bone marrow transplant, and I know masks will be a thing for her. Right now her immune system is decent-ish so she can go places or see friends, etc but even though she is stir crazy at home and WANTS to do things refuses to because she has to wear a mask. It is a completely physical reaction for her. And I see her mental health struggling at home too because she literally is at home all day every day.

[mpm]

May 2, 2023 10:10:08 GMT -5 meganew said:

May 2, 2023 10:01:12 GMT -5 mpm said:

Where did I call you irrelevant or unimportant? My point was that the conversation itself can be harmful to these who need or want to keep the ability to exercise individual-level masking.

You basically said “I don’t want to hear it” when a poster talked about how her kid was negatively affected during the pandemic, much the same way another poster did, and if that’s not screaming that her child’s experiences are unimportant than I don’t know what is.

I don’t want to put anyone on the spot, but I feel like this interaction is exactly what TR’s post made me think of.

@@
No. She wanted to have a conversation not about how to help move her child forward from what they went through during the pandemic, which I have no opinion on, but a conversation about the negative effects of a mitigation tool that many still want or need to continue using today. Those are very different.

It is natural as a parent to want to seek out validation for the many choices that we make for our kids. If we’re sending our kids to school, we need to know that it’s safe. If we’re making a decision on whether to have our kids mask or not mask, there’s a desire to try to back that up with more then what feels right at the time. But inviting a large scale discussion about the “negative effects” of the very last mitigation tool available, that is very much at risk of being taken away in many places, doesn’t sound like a path forward as much as a judgment on others’ self-protection.

[pixy0stix]

May 2, 2023 10:27:26 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 2, 2023 10:10:08 GMT -5 meganew said:

You basically said “I don’t want to hear it” when a poster talked about how her kid was negatively affected during the pandemic, much the same way another poster did, and if that’s not screaming that her child’s experiences are unimportant than I don’t know what is.

I don’t want to put anyone on the spot, but I feel like this interaction is exactly what TR’s post made me think of.

@@
No. She wanted to have a conversation not about how to help move her child forward from what they went through during the pandemic, which I have no opinion on, but a conversation about the negative effects of a mitigation tool that many still want or need to continue using today. Those are very different.

It is natural as a parent to want to seek out validation for the many choices that we make for our kids. If we’re sending our kids to school, we need to know that it’s safe. If we’re making a decision on whether to have our kids mask or not mask, there’s a desire to try to back that up with more then what feels right at the time. But inviting a large scale discussion about the “negative effects” of the very last mitigation tool available, that is very much at risk of being taken away in many places, doesn’t sound like a path forward as much as a judgment on others’ self-protection.

Which it's not. I'd wager that no one gives a flying fuck whether you are still wearing a mask. Most of us here wear masks depending on the situation. There is a LOT of trauma surrounding the mitigation measures that were used during the pandemic that we should be able to discuss now, and ongoing, as those measures will probably need to be used again. 

[meganew]

May 2, 2023 10:27:26 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 2, 2023 10:10:08 GMT -5 meganew said:

You basically said “I don’t want to hear it” when a poster talked about how her kid was negatively affected during the pandemic, much the same way another poster did, and if that’s not screaming that her child’s experiences are unimportant than I don’t know what is.

I don’t want to put anyone on the spot, but I feel like this interaction is exactly what TR’s post made me think of.

@@
No. She wanted to have a conversation not about how to help move her child forward from what they went through during the pandemic, which I have no opinion on, but a conversation about the negative effects of a mitigation tool that many still want or need to continue using today. Those are very different.

It is natural as a parent to want to seek out validation for the many choices that we make for our kids. If we’re sending our kids to school, we need to know that it’s safe. If we’re making a decision on whether to have our kids mask or not mask, there’s a desire to try to back that up with more then what feels right at the time. But inviting a large scale discussion about the “negative effects” of the very last mitigation tool available, that is very much at risk of being taken away in many places, doesn’t sound like a path forward as much as a judgment on others’ self-protection.

I feel like you don’t see that you’re doing the exact same thing.

[hermione]

May 2, 2023 10:27:26 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 2, 2023 10:10:08 GMT -5 meganew said:

You basically said “I don’t want to hear it” when a poster talked about how her kid was negatively affected during the pandemic, much the same way another poster did, and if that’s not screaming that her child’s experiences are unimportant than I don’t know what is.

I don’t want to put anyone on the spot, but I feel like this interaction is exactly what TR’s post made me think of.

@@
No. She wanted to have a conversation not about how to help move her child forward from what they went through during the pandemic, which I have no opinion on, but a conversation about the negative effects of a mitigation tool that many still want or need to continue using today. Those are very different.

It is natural as a parent to want to seek out validation for the many choices that we make for our kids. If we’re sending our kids to school, we need to know that it’s safe. If we’re making a decision on whether to have our kids mask or not mask, there’s a desire to try to back that up with more then what feels right at the time. But inviting a large scale discussion about the “negative effects” of the very last mitigation tool available, that is very much at risk of being taken away in many places, doesn’t sound like a path forward as much as a judgment on others’ self-protection.

I think it's incredibly odd that you think the way forward is to tell everyone else to shut up about their experiences with masks rather than acknowledge there are different experiences - which would allow everyone to more fully support your position and why you hold it. Every time you put negative effects in quotations, and thus imply there were none, your stance seems like you want to make experiences like mine unimportant and irrelevant. 

You act like I am out on a street corner screaming to ban masks when you say I was "inviting a large scale discussion about the “negative effects” of the very last mitigation tool available." In reality I was participating in an already ongoing discussion about COVID that included masks. My point wasn't that masks are bad. My point was that when you completely ignore legitimate concerns people had and have about them (which happens over and over again on this board and I assume off this board as well) you're less likely to garner support for them. People are far more likely to be receptive to, "I understand masks did have negative effects for some people but here is why they are still needed..." as opposed to "STFU about your experience, it's only anecdotal. Any decent human being would still want masks." Which is very much how you come off in your posts - so you claiming that my post was judgmental when I was very clear that I do still support masks is also quite odd. 

[hermione]

May 2, 2023 10:20:15 GMT -5 fancynewbeesly said:

hermione ,

@

This is my DD. She is almost 12. And unfortunately right now, she pretty much needs to mask up to go places and has such a visceral reaction to masks, that she would rather not go. She never had a problem wearing masks when she needed to when she was younger, due to her being immune compromised for leukemia. But then when she HAD to wear them in fourth and fifth grade it was awful and caused a ton of anxiety (it was required in schools here). Now, we are gearing up to a bone marrow transplant, and I know masks will be a thing for her. Right now her immune system is decent-ish so she can go places or see friends, etc but even though she is stir crazy at home and WANTS to do things refuses to because she has to wear a mask. It is a completely physical reaction for her. And I see her mental health struggling at home too because she literally is at home all day every day.

I am so sorry your family is going through all of this. I'll be hoping for the best possible outcome. Does your daughter play Fortnite or Roblox? My 10yo would love to play online with her (I am really serious - she plays with all sorts of kids she's never actually met, mostly my college friends' kids in other states so she wouldn't find it odd at all).

[mpm]

Living in a place where no one ever had to wear a mask anywhere has clearly given me a different perspective on them. The conversation absolutely sounds to me like trying to pass judgment on a wholly optional mitigation measure because that’s what it was here. I’m sorry if anyone felt personally attacked, that was certainly not my intention.

[abs]

These conversations are really hard because there is trauma everywhere and we all feel like our concerns aren’t being taken seriously. (Not necessarily on this board but here, too.)

@those that feel like we aren’t taking Covid seriously enough right now are right. We should still be investing in better vaccines. Those that feel like our school age kids are struggling and that the measures taken during the height of the Covid emergency are playing into that are also right. It’s going to be important to examine these lessons and learn from them. I’m just not sure we are there yet because the conversations are just too personal and get heated quickly.

I do know during the next pandemic I personally will make different choices. My own child suffered immensely from missing out on so much socially. 3 years later she is still catching up.

[fortnightlily]

We are investing in better vaccines AND treatments: www.axios.com/2023/04/10/white-house-program-next-gen-covid-vaccines

ETA - gift link to WaPo, which has more details: wapo.st/42f40Am

[fortnightlily]

The NYTimes has a lot of Covid coverage today with the emergency ending.

@@@
This piece in particular has data about what factors caused kids to fall more behind in some districts than others (though all districts saw declines).

Poorer districts saw greater learning loss than richer districts, and this was consistent for all kids within those districts, i.e. affluent or white kids in poorer districts weren't insulated from greater loss.

Duration of school shutdown was a big factor, but where shutdowns were short there were still academic setbacks due to: "We found that test scores declined more in places where the Covid death rate was high, in communities where adults reported feeling more depression and anxiety during the pandemic and where daily routines of children and families were most significantly restricted. In combination, these factors put enormous strain on parents, teachers and kids — making it unlikely that adults could help kids focus on school. Curtailed social activities were particularly harmful."

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/05/11/opinion/pandemic-learning-losses-steep-but-not-permanent.html?unlocked_article_code=W-QKljpRY8xpTV1zvT5Uidn8zf5UkNsEqbYtpOh0V11OZqMFJagN5L8MUsyKvOXsBGlIhZKMGXPU-W-BkVJWHYrHn7dCvA5Tan8wpei7c7eWOQq6qjIXzRfzIfiMhkfeoBFEWLE3oKRfVvCAKM0awtwpnya9INltIuvNaHgR7tZK7xfcx4UrPInHwstOKx_W0pLjk5wI4mxkM-7m1IPYgAET33Dy4fagklcCfiDCdz0YLTIGPKunbzyWfmuXCI5OgY8hPZJC9spqGzwLsl-8RQWjwLObj6WgY9iGF3sINCGWTkztZLH--FbuoAVhdIrrs4giJ8Wz8ZHESYeGogm5w6BwzX0wcDDrFsdVncJtRdl6weLSonk6tMHw-TCQf0I2oOgqtZ7QMG3Inw&smid=url-share

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From The NY Times article above: “What all this means is that the educational impacts of the pandemic were not driven solely by what was happening (or not happening) in schools. The disruption in children’s lives outside of school also mattered: the constriction of their social lives, the stress their parents were feeling, the death of family members, the signals that the world was not safe and the very real fear that you or someone you love might get very sick and die.”

To the last point, is it the actual risk of these things that had a bigger impact on learning, or the knowledge of that risk that had the most impact? Because children are still losing family members to covid-19. Thousands are still dying a week. They will still lose family members in the future from it, some of whom will contract it because it was brought home from school. It’s still a top cause of death for children, particularly very young children. So the risk that you or someone you know will get sick and die hasn’t really gone away. We’ve just decided to ignore it. And it could get worse with the end of the PH emergency. Maybe ignoring that risk alone will result in better test scores and learning outcomes? But what’s going to be the impact on an individual child’s learning if a kid brings covid-19 home to a newborn sibling who then is hospitalized or even dies? Or grandma? Schools are following the larger US economic policy decision now to sacrifice the educational outcomes of a small number of children who will continue to be affected by covid-19 so that most others can move on from the adverse education outcomes brought on by the knowledge of those risks, kind of a macro vs micro analysis. It will be interesting to see how that plays out in a few years.