@ AZ’s ultimate school choice experiment

[Velar Fricative]

I hate this so much. Sorry for the long gift link, I’m on mobile. Basically, every AZ resident gets $7,200 per child but there is no accountability or data that will be gathered by private or charter schools to show that they have better outcomes. And it also goes into the pockets of people who already never planned to send their kids to public schools. So much fiscal conservatism!

www.nytimes.com/2023/07/24/us/arizona-private-school-vouchers.html?unlocked_article_code=HgcQsno5kpp49yDtKOsExeaLRNORhBlV1V6zm8zbUDIQS1jr_-Xoc5fhriD6XPeape_nOeih1l3Gi9SMQN85QstGBicSpAnyuhC6tEAMUbgXn9ph5m503s04dSzOD8lLOOe1iaY40VYkgW79WDraL_Sqq5QQomXxJNeIZfcggtPbScYM_Gw0dc5oevvlshcF8salwx-hBtLeMN0bipF0de65zvJgfNQqpvpWRok5E6Nq9Lge9UYa1lTMmqRIbYcrODV8qYcpTxO3xxAHwY0acbZDXRlRkmUn6NnTJiiPZ-JYTEMo0naapWcFv4fcrW9-j0CKdiMxI2pXfBb7Uw6xqrf_HIk&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

[bee20]

Yikes.

Although it does make me wonder if I can have 6 kids, buy a school bus, and "homeschool" them with field trips to national parks and such with my $7200/kid educational account. Or could I save that for their college if I homeschooled a couple grades? The lack of accountability is crazy, and I'm especially concerned about where this leaves the significant number of students with IEPs and other needs who aren't required to be accepted in to charters and other private options.

[Jalapeñomel]

As someone who received her HS diploma from a rural public school in Arizona, it’s hard to imagine education in AZ getting worse, but here we are.


“Adjusted for local costs, Arizona spent $10,244 per public school student in 2020 — the lowest of any state. Though state lawmakers have recently increased spending, Arizona’s funding is just catching up from cuts during the Great Recession.

Lower public school investment is not uncommon in states with voucher programs, one analysis found. Of seven states analyzed, six — including Arizona — did not keep up with national increases in per-student spending between 2008 and 2019.”

This is appalling.

[lilac05]

Jul 24, 2023 13:07:22 GMT -5 bee20 said:

Yikes.

Although it does make me wonder if I can have 6 kids, buy a school bus, and "homeschool" them with field trips to national parks and such with my $7200/kid educational account. Or could I save that for their college if I homeschooled a couple grades? The lack of accountability is crazy, and I'm especially concerned about where this leaves the significant number of students with IEPs and other needs who aren't required to be accepted in to charters and other private options.

I can’t speak for AZ, but in Iowa, my understanding is that here, the money goes into an Educational Savings Account, and can be used for anything tangentially related to education: tutoring, additional test prep classes, saving for college, etc. So, basically…helping the already privileged get further ahead.

[abs]

Jul 24, 2023 13:21:15 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

As someone who received her HS diploma from a rural public school in Arizona, it’s hard to imagine education in AZ getting worse, but here we are.


“Adjusted for local costs, Arizona spent $10,244 per public school student in 2020 — the lowest of any state. Though state lawmakers have recently increased spending, Arizona’s funding is just catching up from cuts during the Great Recession.

Lower public school investment is not uncommon in states with voucher programs, one analysis found. Of seven states analyzed, six — including Arizona — did not keep up with national increases in per-student spending between 2008 and 2019.”

This is appalling.

Texas spends less than that. Public schools get $6,160 per student as the basic allotment. It’s not enough and is a horribly low number. They haven’t increased this allotment since 2019.

There was a huge push by Abbott this last legislative session to get vouchers approved here. It was voted down every time but he’s holding additional school funding hostage until he gets what he wants. Going to get ugly I think.

[Jalapeñomel]

Jul 24, 2023 14:00:18 GMT -5 abs said:

Jul 24, 2023 13:21:15 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

As someone who received her HS diploma from a rural public school in Arizona, it’s hard to imagine education in AZ getting worse, but here we are.


“Adjusted for local costs, Arizona spent $10,244 per public school student in 2020 — the lowest of any state. Though state lawmakers have recently increased spending, Arizona’s funding is just catching up from cuts during the Great Recession.

Lower public school investment is not uncommon in states with voucher programs, one analysis found. Of seven states analyzed, six — including Arizona — did not keep up with national increases in per-student spending between 2008 and 2019.”

This is appalling.

Texas spends less than that. Public schools get $6,160 per student as the basic allotment. It’s not enough and is a horribly low number. They haven’t increased this allotment since 2019.

There was a huge push by Abbott this last legislative session to get vouchers approved here. It was voted down every time but he’s holding additional school funding hostage until he gets what he wants. Going to get ugly I think.

I took that quote from the article, so I went to find more data.


These are the most recent census bureau stats on spending per pupil:
Data:
www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023/public-school-spending.html

Graphs:
www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/how-did-covid-19-affect-school-finances.html

[erbear]

So frustrating. Because, the thing is, "vouchers" that allow for "parent choice" is really appealing. Getting to pick a (religious) school that aligns with your belief system and have it paid for by the government is a great deal for parents who don't want their kids learning the hard truth about American history or being in classrooms with lower income students or racially diverse students or students working through gender identity, etc etc etc. And once you're locked in, you tune out the cognitive dissonance of the reality of what "school choice" means for education.

ETA: I'm clearly not anti-private schools (I have taught at one for many years and my children both attend my school and will for their whole school career). But I am in a constant state of evaluation of the benefits of this choice and chose this specific school for both me and them intentionally and carefully when I was moving out of public school (for what I still maintain were excellent reasons). I have concerns more about the intrusion of religion and religious beliefs on society from the schools I believe these programs will drive them into. 

[Michelle]

Jul 24, 2023 13:07:22 GMT -5 bee20 said:

Yikes.

Although it does make me wonder if I can have 6 kids, buy a school bus, and "homeschool" them with field trips to national parks and such with my $7200/kid educational account. Or could I save that for their college if I homeschooled a couple grades? The lack of accountability is crazy, and I'm especially concerned about where this leaves the significant number of students with IEPs and other needs who aren't required to be accepted in to charters and other private options.

Yours sounds like a lovely plan.

I'm just thinking of all the FLDS in NE Arizona who will profit off of this and continue to subjugate their followers to their abusive, insular practices. Also thinking of all the FLDS in southern Utah who may move to AZ for this extra income per kid. Wow.

[sent]

OMG this is what my 8th grade teacher wished for back in 1992 when we were studying Clinton vs. Bush. And she threw in abortion is bad etc. We were at a Catholic school in a blue east coast state.

And here we are. (cries)

[Jalapeñomel]

Private schools, religious or not, should not take tax dollars from a public school, especially in a state that already suffers from lack of funding, and especially not under the guise of parent choice.

If parents choose private school or homeschooling, that should be on their own dollar. It should not take away from the funding for public school.

[notsopicky]

This is yet another issue for which the GQP/Republicans are playing the long game. They waited 50 years to "win" about abortion, next item up for bid: "school choice".

It's a high cliff we're falling off.

[livinitup]

When I think of the truly ridiculous things PTA moms would fight and argue about for sponsored programs, how to fundraise, and what to spend fundraising dollars on, I shutter for the future of education with no guardrails against them.

[meanie]

Jul 24, 2023 16:38:54 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Private schools, religious or not, should not take tax dollars from a public school, especially in a state that already suffers from lack of funding, and especially not under the guise of parent choice.

If parents choose private school or homeschooling, that should be on their own dollar. It should not take away from the funding for public school.

Agree 100%, and we send our kids to a private Catholic school. It is our choice.

What I WILL say (and you could argue this is not directly related), is that the federal programs run through the public school systems are difficult or impossible to access for students who are educated elsewhere. For example, the free meals program. Our kids technically are entitled to it but have no reasonable means to access it. Same goes for town run after school programs, sports, camps, etc.

[Jalapeñomel]

Jul 25, 2023 17:38:34 GMT -5 meanie said:

Jul 24, 2023 16:38:54 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Private schools, religious or not, should not take tax dollars from a public school, especially in a state that already suffers from lack of funding, and especially not under the guise of parent choice.

If parents choose private school or homeschooling, that should be on their own dollar. It should not take away from the funding for public school.

Agree 100%, and we send our kids to a private Catholic school. It is our choice.

What I WILL say (and you could argue this is not directly related), is that the federal programs run through the public school systems are difficult or impossible to access for students who are educated elsewhere. For example, the free meals program. Our kids technically are entitled to it but have no reasonable means to access it. Same goes for town run after school programs, sports, camps, etc.

I think the assumption is that if you can afford the tuition at a private school, then you don’t need access to free lunch.

[lilac05]

Jul 27, 2023 7:31:24 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Jul 25, 2023 17:38:34 GMT -5 meanie said:

Agree 100%, and we send our kids to a private Catholic school. It is our choice.

What I WILL say (and you could argue this is not directly related), is that the federal programs run through the public school systems are difficult or impossible to access for students who are educated elsewhere. For example, the free meals program. Our kids technically are entitled to it but have no reasonable means to access it. Same goes for town run after school programs, sports, camps, etc.

I think the assumption is that if you can afford the tuition at a private school, then you don’t need access to free lunch.

I would agree. And also, when people are making their choice, things like this would weigh into their decision. If you choose private, you lose easy access to other things in exchange for other things that led to that decision.

[meanie]

Jul 27, 2023 7:31:24 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Jul 25, 2023 17:38:34 GMT -5 meanie said:

Agree 100%, and we send our kids to a private Catholic school. It is our choice.

What I WILL say (and you could argue this is not directly related), is that the federal programs run through the public school systems are difficult or impossible to access for students who are educated elsewhere. For example, the free meals program. Our kids technically are entitled to it but have no reasonable means to access it. Same goes for town run after school programs, sports, camps, etc.

I think the assumption is that if you can afford the tuition at a private school, then you don’t need access to free lunch.

So yes, I have obviously heard this many many times. However, the program funding comes from tax dollars and there are no income maximums for any of the programs I listed.

[pixy0stix]

Jul 27, 2023 10:12:28 GMT -5 meanie said:

Jul 27, 2023 7:31:24 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

I think the assumption is that if you can afford the tuition at a private school, then you don’t need access to free lunch.

So yes, I have obviously heard this many many times. However, the program funding comes from tax dollars and there are no income maximums for any of the programs I listed.

How do you not have access to town run programs? I get not being able to access anything through the school systems, but town run programs are city/county funded and not federally/state funded.

[meanie]

Jul 27, 2023 10:23:19 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jul 27, 2023 10:12:28 GMT -5 meanie said:

So yes, I have obviously heard this many many times. However, the program funding comes from tax dollars and there are no income maximums for any of the programs I listed.

How do you not have access to town run programs? I get not being able to access anything through the school systems, but town run programs are city/county funded and not federally/state funded.

Gah Poboards ate my response so you are getting the short version

All communication is done through the student's home folders. I'm sure there are some activities we could participate in, but we never hear about them and sign ups are done through the school. There is a quarterly flier that is mailed to residents for adult and senior activities, nothing for kids.

The superintendent was surprised when we brought this up years ago, but they had no solution.

I get it, the most efficient way to communicate with most families is through the public school. We go to a school one city over so we will sometimes get fliers for events in that city that we can't participate in because we aren't residents.

[erbear]

Jul 27, 2023 7:31:24 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Jul 25, 2023 17:38:34 GMT -5 meanie said:

Agree 100%, and we send our kids to a private Catholic school. It is our choice.

What I WILL say (and you could argue this is not directly related), is that the federal programs run through the public school systems are difficult or impossible to access for students who are educated elsewhere. For example, the free meals program. Our kids technically are entitled to it but have no reasonable means to access it. Same goes for town run after school programs, sports, camps, etc.

I think the assumption is that if you can afford the tuition at a private school, then you don’t need access to free lunch.

But that’s not always true and it furthers the divide. My school pays out more than $9 million annually on tuition assistance. Almost no one is paying full tuition, and many go for free. That’s how the school can have the population it does. Lunch at school is cost prohibitive for us, and we are far from low income. These are separate issues.

[nsl]

Jul 24, 2023 15:14:24 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Jul 24, 2023 13:07:22 GMT -5 bee20 said:

Yikes.

Although it does make me wonder if I can have 6 kids, buy a school bus, and "homeschool" them with field trips to national parks and such with my $7200/kid educational account. Or could I save that for their college if I homeschooled a couple grades? The lack of accountability is crazy, and I'm especially concerned about where this leaves the significant number of students with IEPs and other needs who aren't required to be accepted in to charters and other private options.

Yours sounds like a lovely plan.

I'm just thinking of all the FLDS in NE Arizona who will profit off of this and continue to subjugate their followers to their abusive, insular practices. Also thinking of all the FLDS in southern Utah who may move to AZ for this extra income per kid. Wow.

The ones in Utah won't need to because our state legislature passed almost exactly the same bill last session. Worse, the vouchers are worth over twice the weighted PPU given to districts, so budgets for the upcoming year are going to be in even worse shape for schools where more than a few families choose to use them.

[Jalapeñomel]

Jul 27, 2023 11:48:28 GMT -5 erbear said:

Jul 27, 2023 7:31:24 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

I think the assumption is that if you can afford the tuition at a private school, then you don’t need access to free lunch.

But that’s not always true and it furthers the divide. My school pays out more than $9 million annually on tuition assistance. Almost no one is paying full tuition, and many go for free. That’s how the school can have the population it does. Lunch at school is cost prohibitive for us, and we are far from low income. These are separate issues.

You can’t really have public funding go to private schools even if they have low income students. Private schools are private for a reason, and they should be addressing these issues on their own without government funding.

[erbear]

Jul 27, 2023 14:46:59 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Jul 27, 2023 11:48:28 GMT -5 erbear said:

But that’s not always true and it furthers the divide. My school pays out more than $9 million annually on tuition assistance. Almost no one is paying full tuition, and many go for free. That’s how the school can have the population it does. Lunch at school is cost prohibitive for us, and we are far from low income. These are separate issues.

You can’t really have public funding go to private schools even if they have low income students. Private schools are private for a reason, and they should be addressing these issues on their own without government funding.

I agree with you. I just disagree with your statement that private school families can all afford more. I'd love to see our school roll lunch in with tuition for everyone and include it as part of the tuition assistance for anyone who receives it -- I've been pushing this for years from an equity perspective  -- but I also understand that private schools are businesses and they don't have unlimited funds. I am not advocating for public funding of private schools, just pointing out that all students in private schools aren't wealthy.

[Jalapeñomel]

Jul 27, 2023 15:55:33 GMT -5 erbear said:

Jul 27, 2023 14:46:59 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

You can’t really have public funding go to private schools even if they have low income students. Private schools are private for a reason, and they should be addressing these issues on their own without government funding.

I agree with you. I just disagree with your statement that private school families can all afford more. I'd love to see our school roll lunch in with tuition for everyone and include it as part of the tuition assistance for anyone who receives it, but I also understand that private schools are businesses and they don't have unlimited funds. I am not advocating for public funding of private schools, just pointing out that all students in private schools aren't wealthy.

I’m not saying they can, I’m saying that is the assumption that’s made by the general public.

And frankly, if private schools are giving out scholarships to students who qualify for free or reduced lunch, it’s kind of terrible if that isn’t also part of the package.

[erbear]

Jul 27, 2023 16:01:18 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Jul 27, 2023 15:55:33 GMT -5 erbear said:

I agree with you. I just disagree with your statement that private school families can all afford more. I'd love to see our school roll lunch in with tuition for everyone and include it as part of the tuition assistance for anyone who receives it, but I also understand that private schools are businesses and they don't have unlimited funds. I am not advocating for public funding of private schools, just pointing out that all students in private schools aren't wealthy.

I’m not saying they can, I’m saying that is the assumption that’s made by the public.

And frankly, if private schools are giving out scholarships to students who qualify for free or reduced lunch, it’s kind of terrible if that isn’t also part of the package.

I agree. I think it's sucky.

[lilac05]

Jul 27, 2023 10:12:28 GMT -5 meanie said:

Jul 27, 2023 7:31:24 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

I think the assumption is that if you can afford the tuition at a private school, then you don’t need access to free lunch.

So yes, I have obviously heard this many many times. However, the program funding comes from tax dollars and there are no income maximums for any of the programs I listed.

What is the federal program that you feel exists that provides free meals with no income requirements? To my knowledge, that’s…not a thing. Free lunches are only provided to those who qualify financially at our public schools. Everyone else pays.

[meanie]

Jul 27, 2023 16:21:07 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Jul 27, 2023 10:12:28 GMT -5 meanie said:

So yes, I have obviously heard this many many times. However, the program funding comes from tax dollars and there are no income maximums for any of the programs I listed.

What is the federal program that you feel exists that provides free meals with no income requirements? To my knowledge, that’s…not a thing. Free lunches are only provided to those who qualify financially at our public schools. Everyone else pays.

My power went out while I'm was typing 😭 Can't catch a break here!

Looks like I was mistaken though, the national program ended in June 2022 but my state extended it for 2022-2023.

Anyways, I didn't mean to hijack this thread!

[macmars45]

Just yesterday a mom with a DS with cerebral palsy was telling me AZ is one of the best states to live in if you have a special needs kid. I was flabbergasted because I just read these articles here. No thank you. 

Also my niece and nibling just finished their 13 years of public school in AZ and it was not the best experience.

[Poeticxpassion]

Jul 27, 2023 16:21:07 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Jul 27, 2023 10:12:28 GMT -5 meanie said:

So yes, I have obviously heard this many many times. However, the program funding comes from tax dollars and there are no income maximums for any of the programs I listed.

What is the federal program that you feel exists that provides free meals with no income requirements? To my knowledge, that’s…not a thing. Free lunches are only provided to those who qualify financially at our public schools. Everyone else pays.

Starting this school year, Colorado will give free breakfast and lunch to all students regardless of income. It was on the ballot last year. People lost their minds about feeding kids who didn’t really “need” it. 

[momof2]

Jul 30, 2023 12:09:56 GMT -5 macmars45 said:

Just yesterday a mom with a DS with cerebral palsy was telling me AZ is one of the best states to live in if you have a special needs kid. I was flabbergasted because I just read these articles here. No thank you. 

Also my niece and nibling just finished their 13 years of public school in AZ and it was not the best experience.

She isn’t talking about the school system. She is talking about the Medicaid services you can get for kids with disabilities. Arizona has been ranked #1 for Medicaid services for five years in a row by — wait for it — the major CP organization in the US. You will find articles raving about Arizona in publications like Disability Scoop, etc.

In a southern state, my kid has been legally entitled to non-income based Medicaid for 13 years. She will turn 18 before she ever gets off the waitlist. At which point, she will qualify on her own due to no income. These Medicaid waivers for disabled kids are essentially unfunded mandates in many states.

[lilac05]

Jul 30, 2023 13:35:53 GMT -5 Poeticxpassion said:

Jul 27, 2023 16:21:07 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

What is the federal program that you feel exists that provides free meals with no income requirements? To my knowledge, that’s…not a thing. Free lunches are only provided to those who qualify financially at our public schools. Everyone else pays.

Starting this school year, Colorado will give free breakfast and lunch to all students regardless of income. It was on the ballot last year. People lost their minds about feeding kids who didn’t really “need” it. 

Minnesota does the same. Iowa prefers to give free money to people for private school (including wealthy people already paying for it) instead of feeding students. Priorities!