@ Kids, friends, and political conversations

[lilac05]

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How do you talk to your kids about discussing politics with friends?

My 12 year old was with a neighborhood friend (who is going into HS) yesterday and the topic came up. Friend’s family is known to be conservative, but not Trumpers. Discussion was that Biden has dementia and they just want to raise taxes for everyone and take their hard-earned money. My son tried to change the subject, but with an older kid, it’s hard and they’re definitely a power dynamic at play here.

We had a good conversation about it, but I’m wondering how you talk to your kids about it. I don’t like the “we never talk about politics” approach because I think healthy discussion is important. But kids are uninformed and the discussions need to include someone who has at least some information.

We live in a somewhat purple area of a stupid red state, so no echo chamber anywhere. These things are going to come up repeatedly.

[eddy]

The line for me is respect. Is this just a difference of opinion or is the other child being hateful. If a kid is spouting off hateful crap that is dispareging to others you should excuse yourself from the conversation and let a trusted adult know. This is more for my younger kid who is 11. I want him to know this is not something he needs to handle on his own. And as a parent I want to know if another kid is saying hateful things.

For the conversation you outlined, I would probably just frame it as that was a difference of opinion. You don't need to agree, nor are you obligated to make an argument against the point. I would probably just talk to them about tools to change the subject of a conversation.

It sounds like your kid handled it well.

[lilac05]

eddy, this time, there was no disrespect, except for speculation of someone else’s cognitive status (which I find unacceptable, especially coming from kids who likely barely even know what dementia is). This kid has been known in the past to say that “Poor people exist to teach us a lesson…to work hard and go to college.” [RAGE!! His parents work cushy white collar jobs that pay ridiculously for the amount of work they actually do.]

I do appreciate that it opens up conversations with our kids, and I think it’s good for them to be exposed to respectful discussions of differing opinions, but the power dynamic here makes this one tough.

I’m friends with the kid’s mom & sent her a text to ask her kids to not talk politics/try to convince my kid that their way is the right way to think. No response yet.

[mccallister84]

I don’t know. I feel like at those ages you can’t really dictate the conversations that happen outside your presence. Just continue to encourage open dialogue with your kid.

Now if other kids are being disrespectful or making your kid feel uncomfortable, etc then perhaps it’s time for your child to reconsider who they spend their time with. But I would say this about any topic not just politics.

[krystee]

I would just teach them to disengage if there isn’t room for productive conversation: “We disagree and I don’t think we’ll change each other’s minds, so let’s change the topic instead.”

[waverly]

If they are reasonable people then we just keep it general and keep it moving.

If they are extremists, I shut it down because of the crazy that they spew.

ETA- I just saw that you texted the mom.  I guess it depends on how far off the rails the convo went.   I'm guessing she won't take it well.  But if you feel that it is a situation where you need to protect your child, but if they are older then maybe they need the tools to protect themselves depending on the age.  

[Jalapeñomel]

I think you have to let your child navigate these conversations.

And in your home you tell them that hate toward BIPOC, LGBTQ+, women, low income people, etc will NOT be tolerated under any situations, and they they should speak up any time they hear to the contrary.

[basilosaurus]

Jul 31, 2023 12:46:04 GMT -5 krystee said:

I would just teach them to disengage if there isn’t room for productive conversation: “We disagree and I don’t think we’ll change each other’s minds, so let’s change the topic instead.”

I try this as an adult and still some people won't let up. Like this past weekend meeting a guy who would be a trumper if American. I agree this is a good approach to learn early as well as how to walk away if someone just won't stop.

[lilac05]

I totally understand that I can’t dictate what they discuss. There is a bit of a history here that is too much to put in a message board message, so I won’t bother explaining. I think I did it in a way that won’t cause a big issue. I can’t imagine myself sending a message to literally almost any other parent. If my kid was doing the same to a kid 3 years younger, I’d want to know, too.

We did talk a lot about the exact things mentioned here, so I feel good about that, too. The conversation was making my son feel uncomfortable because the older kid passes everything off as fact and then it kind of confuses my son. He doesn’t feel like he knows enough to say anything back (because we are big on saying, “I don’t know enough about X topic to be able to argue” about many topics.) He knows some political stuff, but not a ton. We don’t watch news on TV, so he generally doesn’t hear it.

Ultimately, I think he needs to distance himself from this friend…but that has to be his decision, and that’s hard to do.

[erbear]

My kids go to a school where they have been encouraged to talk about politics and to stand up for what they believe in as respectful a way as possible since they were little kids, so they are pretty well versed in it. I have heard them talk about abortion access with a Trumper (older man) in a way that was borderline rude, but I didn't correct them because they are basing an argument in fact and not lies, so I am good with it. 

I would never tell them not to discuss politics. That's how we got here. I just tell them to listen to understand, not to respond, and to not let anyone discount their opinions.

[Deleted]

Jul 31, 2023 15:45:05 GMT -5 erbear said:

My kids go to a school where they have been encouraged to talk about politics and to stand up for what they believe in as respectful a way as possible since they were little kids, so they are pretty well versed in it. I have heard them talk about abortion access with a Trumper (older man) in a way that was borderline rude, but I didn't correct them because they are basing an argument in fact and not lies, so I am good with it. 

I would never tell them not to discuss politics. That's how we got here. I just tell them to listen to understand, not to respond, and to not let anyone discount their opinions.

I wish more of us learned this important skill.

[erbear]

Jul 31, 2023 15:54:03 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Jul 31, 2023 15:45:05 GMT -5 erbear said:

My kids go to a school where they have been encouraged to talk about politics and to stand up for what they believe in as respectful a way as possible since they were little kids, so they are pretty well versed in it. I have heard them talk about abortion access with a Trumper (older man) in a way that was borderline rude, but I didn't correct them because they are basing an argument in fact and not lies, so I am good with it. 

I would never tell them not to discuss politics. That's how we got here. I just tell them to listen to understand, not to respond, and to not let anyone discount their opinions.

I wish more of us learned this important skill.

Agreed. We actually talk about it a lot at school -- we, as a group, think it's a skill you have to teach kids and let them practice, so we do it as often as possible in classes and in other spaces. We try to model respectful disagreement and give kids language to shut down hate speech and offensive comments. I think we do a pretty good job and I'm always thrilled to see my kids (12 and 14) engage with others because they do it well, and it's not because I taught them.

[lilac05]

Jul 31, 2023 15:45:05 GMT -5 erbear said:

My kids go to a school where they have been encouraged to talk about politics and to stand up for what they believe in as respectful a way as possible since they were little kids, so they are pretty well versed in it. I have heard them talk about abortion access with a Trumper (older man) in a way that was borderline rude, but I didn't correct them because they are basing an argument in fact and not lies, so I am good with it. 

I would never tell them not to discuss politics. That's how we got here. I just tell them to listen to understand, not to respond, and to not let anyone discount their opinions.

I really appreciate this approach. It’s what I’ve always wanted for my kids, and what we try to model in our home. We have lots of hard conversations at home and teach them not to shy away from hard conversations with others. My son is generally very well-spoken and can hold his own in conversations (with reminders not to interrupt…thanks, ADHD).

I think it’s the extra stuff and the backstory/power dynamics of the relationship that I didn’t share here that set me off. This friend is notorious for trying to “teach“ my kids things. And because he’s 3 years older (and has a sibling my son’s age who is often also with them), it changes my reaction. (One time, he ended up at urgent care due to friend convincing my son he knew how to be safe when he didn’t know shit and my son ended up getting shocked. Thankfully he was fine.) Discussing stuff respectfully with his peers is one thing. Being “taught” by a friend that Biden has dementia and they’re just taking all of everyone’s money feels different. And my reaction was “don’t talk politics” when what I really wanted to say was more complex.

Like I said, I think this relationship has probably run its course, but that has to be my son’s decision.

[lilac05]

I wish we could talk about this at school. Alas, we live in Iowa. We can’t discuss anything potentially controversial at school, which means kids have no practice with these things.

[wawa]

Jul 31, 2023 16:25:25 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Jul 31, 2023 15:45:05 GMT -5 erbear said:

My kids go to a school where they have been encouraged to talk about politics and to stand up for what they believe in as respectful a way as possible since they were little kids, so they are pretty well versed in it. I have heard them talk about abortion access with a Trumper (older man) in a way that was borderline rude, but I didn't correct them because they are basing an argument in fact and not lies, so I am good with it. 

I would never tell them not to discuss politics. That's how we got here. I just tell them to listen to understand, not to respond, and to not let anyone discount their opinions.

I really appreciate this approach. It’s what I’ve always wanted for my kids, and what we try to model in our home. We have lots of hard conversations at home and teach them not to shy away from hard conversations with others. My son is generally very well-spoken and can hold his own in conversations (with reminders not to interrupt…thanks, ADHD).

I think it’s the extra stuff and the backstory/power dynamics of the relationship that I didn’t share here that set me off. This friend is notorious for trying to “teach“ my kids things. And because he’s 3 years older (and has a sibling my son’s age who is often also with them), it changes my reaction. (One time, he ended up at urgent care due to friend convincing my son he knew how to be safe when he didn’t know shit and my son ended up getting shocked. Thankfully he was fine.) Discussing stuff respectfully with his peers is one thing. Being “taught” by a friend that Biden has dementia and they’re just taking all of everyone’s money feels different. And my reaction was “don’t talk politics” when what I really wanted to say was more complex.

Like I said, I think this relationship has probably run its course, but that has to be my son’s decision.

Maybe you've had this conversation, but I'd not hesitate to talk to your son frankly about this friend being an unreliable source of facts at best and a bit of a dick at worst. 
it's his choice to want to be friends with this person, but that doesn't mean you'd be out of line to point out the ways he's a been a bad friend or at least, a person who has proven himself unworthy of trust.

[lilac05]

Jul 31, 2023 16:45:30 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jul 31, 2023 16:25:25 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

I really appreciate this approach. It’s what I’ve always wanted for my kids, and what we try to model in our home. We have lots of hard conversations at home and teach them not to shy away from hard conversations with others. My son is generally very well-spoken and can hold his own in conversations (with reminders not to interrupt…thanks, ADHD).

I think it’s the extra stuff and the backstory/power dynamics of the relationship that I didn’t share here that set me off. This friend is notorious for trying to “teach“ my kids things. And because he’s 3 years older (and has a sibling my son’s age who is often also with them), it changes my reaction. (One time, he ended up at urgent care due to friend convincing my son he knew how to be safe when he didn’t know shit and my son ended up getting shocked. Thankfully he was fine.) Discussing stuff respectfully with his peers is one thing. Being “taught” by a friend that Biden has dementia and they’re just taking all of everyone’s money feels different. And my reaction was “don’t talk politics” when what I really wanted to say was more complex.

Like I said, I think this relationship has probably run its course, but that has to be my son’s decision.

Maybe you've had this conversation, but I'd not hesitate to talk to your son frankly about this friend being an unreliable source of facts at best and a bit of a dick at worst. 
it's his choice to want to be friends with this person, but that doesn't mean you'd be out of line to point out the ways he's a been a bad friend or at least, a person who has proven himself unworthy of trust.

Thank you for this. Yes, we’ve had this conversation gently over the last few months. Today, he said, “I just wish there were more kids my age in our neighborhood.”

[chickadee77]

Jul 31, 2023 12:46:04 GMT -5 krystee said:

I would just teach them to disengage if there isn’t room for productive conversation: “We disagree and I don’t think we’ll change each other’s minds, so let’s change the topic instead.”

While I agree, I also struggle with the idea that this non-confrontational way of existing is sort of what has gotten the US where it is (and this is very mich how *I* exist and grew up, so am acknowledging my complicity). If someone is willing to get in my kid's face about "their" (read, their parents') beliefs, then I'm cool with my kids sparring back, though would never encourage outright conflict (?) if that makes sense. But, I guess, like physical bullying; don't start none, won't be none.

[waverly]

We would definitely have the conversation that your friend is dumb and don’t believe him about anything after the shock/ ER incident. Did you say anything to the parents then?

[outnumbered]

I don't think the conversation about his friend needs to be gentle. The 15 year old doesn't sound particularly nice. Sometimes our kids need to know they can stop being friends wirh jerks. My youngest son had a neighborhood "friend" that engages in risky behavior and can be mean. I told my son he wasn't going to hang out with the "friend" this summer and he was actually relieved.

[lilac05]

Jul 31, 2023 19:32:13 GMT -5 waverly said:

We would definitely have the conversation that your friend is dumb and don’t believe him about anything after the shock/ ER incident. Did you say anything to the parents then?

Yes, I did. We’re friends with the parents. She was actually the one who called me when it happened. He was OK, just really scared. The friend likes to take stuff apart and put it back together…so not really risky behavior in the typical sense…but again something that might be OK for a 15 year old to do solo, but he shouldn’t be doing it with other kids and acting like he knows what he’s doing. I took him in to Urgent Care more to calm his anxiety that was out of control after that. He needed someone other than mom to tell him he was OK.

This kid has always been a nice kid. But he’s getting to those tough teen years. I know it’s been a rough summer at home with his parents, too. Know-it-all teens are just par for the course, and we have had that conversation many times. I think it’s one of those things where the age difference wasn’t big when they were 8 and 11…but at 12 and 15, it’s suddenly a really big difference.

[hermione]

We practice saying, "I disagree with you because..." I want her to be brave enough to disagree and also be able to articulate why. I appreciate that her school teaches them that they have to confront problems, it's helpful to have that reinforced.

It sounds like both you and your son handled an unpleasant interaction pretty well.

[wawa]

I've been pondering this thread for a while and trying to remember back to when I first started getting into it on politics with classmates when I was a kid.
this isn't specific to your situation lilac05 Just my noodling about kids and political conversations.

I grew up in a fairly red area, didn't go to church and had a gay mom. So it came up, for sure. I definitely would want my kid to have the conversational tools to end conversations they aren't up for, god knows that still happens now as an adult with near-strangers where I'm just not here for talking to some lady in the checkout line about fucking anythign, let alone politics - but I don't think I'm going to encourage my kids to bite their tongues or agree to disagree very often.

I think in the exact OP scenario, where it's red herring misinformation about a politician's health plus whining about spending...that's a good one for a good ole "ok sure jan" and a subject change if you don't have handy counterpoints or just don't wanna engage too far. But there are lot of other conversations where I'd be really sad if my kids ducked the topic and still wanted to stay friends with that kid and it's a goal of mine as a parent to raise kids who know the difference. So I think that's where my conversations might focus. It hasnt come up yet overtly. In part maybe because we're in a really blue area....but mine are also still a bit younger.

For me around 6th grade (so...11?) is I think when the push on the church stuff started, but less so the political talk. Lots of friends who would invite me to sleepover on a saturday night and go to church with them in the AM. (Which I didn't mind. I liked singing, so church was fun enough.) Or would earnestly tell me they were worried about my soul. (Minded that more. Could let it slide if it wasn't too often.) Or people would ask what church I went to and then just inform me I was going to hell. (Didn't love that. Wasn't friends with those people) But by the time I was 15, for sure, I was mixing it up with people on a regular basis on overtly political topics. Politics were generally less culty than they are now, people certainly didn't fly flags for their political officialition, but I didn't see eye to eye with the vast majority of my schoolmates and it came up with some regularity.

All of which to say....I started building my bubble at a pretty early age and I do not regret it. I love a good policy debate and believe in healthy disagreement (MH and I have EPIC policy debates where we generally agree on the what but not the how.), but I never agreed to disagree with anybody on things I see as non-negotiable. If people parroted their parents lame takes on don't ask don't tell, or welfare queens or anything else from the 90's culture war dehumanizing bullshit playlist and weren't willing to listen when I pointed out that they were saying terrible things about real people...we didn't stay friends. I see this as a feature not a bug. I don't have friends who are cool with dehumanizing my family and I want to raise my kids the same way. It'll be easier for them because we live in a very different area than where I grew up so they won't be in an angry little liberal minority, but it'll come up eventually.

I sometimes struggle with what that means in terms of the tools I should be giving them because their situation is not mine. We live in a blue area that isn't super religious and their parents both appear hetero. They definitely need less of the angry trauma responses I developed...but like, I do in fact want them to be able to jump in with confidence and point out where people are saying fucked up shit or talking out their asses. AND how to get out of a conversation if you don't feel safe or lack appropriate spoons for the topic at that time. AND how to have a reasoned debate on things that people can reasonably debate about. (like you have a friend who wants to talk about where exactly the tax code bracket cutoffs should be? GO TO TOWN YOU NERDS.) But without relevant "teachable moments" it's hard to tell if I'm laying that groundwork well.

I just want my babies to know when to riot. parenting is weird.

[macmars45]

I grew up in a red city and as of now it looks like I'll be raising my DS(7) in the same red city. (We moved to my hometown 3 years ago.) H and I already talk to DS about all the important stuff at age level appropriateness. It's already been helpful when his 1st grade friend parroted his dad this past school year. It's starts young. Oh the joys of red cities. /s

I'll never forget my friend apologizing for her democrat friend (me) when we were 16. Thankfully that friend came around and has been a democrat for years now.

[lilac05]

wawa, thanks for your thoughts.

I could write a book here, but no time. I relate to so much of your message. I was raised to believe one way and now believe another about many issues…and I think that’s what makes me really sensitive to how these conversations happen.