Maestro/Bradley Cooper controversy

[wildrice]

Aug 21, 2023 13:09:59 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Aug 19, 2023 8:17:06 GMT -5 tacokick said:

She played Virginia Woolf in The Hours and there was a lot of backlash about the nose back then! Some praise but a lot of people were not happy at all.

www.nytimes.com/2003/02/15/movies/the-nose-was-the-final-straw.html

Virginia Woolf was not Jewish and was anti-Semitic so that aspect of the problem wasn’t an issue, it was just about looks.

I doubt the producers are setting out to purposely offend people with prosthetic noses but that doesn’t take away from the fact in 2023 they are still putting fake noses on actors playing Jewish characters/representations of actual people even when they aren’t needed. I can see something in this case as part of the aging make up—noses and faces change—but as a younger man he really doesn’t need it. Why is adding a fake nose the default? It must be a lot less work to use the actor’s natural nose yet they didn’t.

It's a lot less work for the makeup department and a lot less work/more comfortable for the actor! Not only does he need to get to the makeup chair before dawn, most likely, but prosthetics impede natural facial expressions, which are crucial to the craft of acting. 

Re: keeping kosher, most of my friends who do will default to eating vegetarian or vegan at "normal" restaurants because it's an easy way to avoid having to deal with the big laws of kashrut (how meat is butchered and the meat/milk mixing). 

Instead of calling them "normal" restaurants, how about non-kosher or not strictly kosher? Keeping kosher is normal, at least as far as any diet or restaurant is is normal (kind of a meaningless word!). I know you don't mean to imply otherwise, but I think several posts in this thread have included othering language about people of the Jewish faith and we should be mindful about that.

[msmerymac]

wildrice, thank you, agreed.

[heyyounotyouyou]

Aug 19, 2023 13:53:59 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I come from a long line of people who've never even met a Jewish person before.

How is this even possible??? Do you never leave your house??

[AJL]

Aug 22, 2023 14:32:48 GMT -5 heyyounotyouyou said:

Aug 19, 2023 13:53:59 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I come from a long line of people who've never even met a Jewish person before.

How is this even possible??? Do you never leave your house??

Right!? We, Jews, literally have a song about it.

[wise_rita]

Aug 22, 2023 14:32:48 GMT -5 heyyounotyouyou said:

Aug 19, 2023 13:53:59 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I come from a long line of people who've never even met a Jewish person before.

How is this even possible??? Do you never leave your house??

See also: rural Midwest

[Bad Dingo]

Aug 23, 2023 2:54:25 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Aug 22, 2023 14:32:48 GMT -5 heyyounotyouyou said:

How is this even possible??? Do you never leave your house??

See also: rural Midwest

You may not have met anyone who is Jewish but it's more likely that you have and it just didn't come up. You wouldn't necessarily know someone is Jewish just by looking at them. Jews look like everyone else.

www.heyalma.com/midwestern-jews-exist-and-our-communities-are-thriving/

[Bad Dingo]

Aug 23, 2023 3:43:19 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Aug 23, 2023 2:54:25 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

See also: rural Midwest

You may not have met anyone who is Jewish but it's more likely that you have and it just didn't come up. You wouldn't necessarily know someone is Jewish just by looking at them. Jews look like everyone else.

www.heyalma.com/midwestern-jews-exist-and-our-communities-are-thriving/

ETA a quick non-creapy look at your post history shows you've travelled extensively from your (I'm assuming) small town so proclaiming that you've never met a Jewish person seems extra strange.

[dirtyred]

Aug 23, 2023 3:43:19 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Aug 23, 2023 2:54:25 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

See also: rural Midwest

You may not have met anyone who is Jewish but it's more likely that you have and it just didn't come up. You wouldn't necessarily know someone is Jewish just by looking at them. Jews look like everyone else.

Like Natalie Portman, Rashida Jones, Lisa Bonet, Alison Brie, Jake Gyllenhall, Drake, Wynona Rider...the list goes on and on.

If you live in an area that doesn't have anyone with a "Jewish" last name or the stereotypical accent/looks that you see on TV, you might never think that you've met a Jewish person.

[wise_rita]

Aug 23, 2023 3:57:37 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Aug 23, 2023 3:43:19 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

You may not have met anyone who is Jewish but it's more likely that you have and it just didn't come up. You wouldn't necessarily know someone is Jewish just by looking at them. Jews look like everyone else.

www.heyalma.com/midwestern-jews-exist-and-our-communities-are-thriving/

ETA a quick non-creapy look at your post history shows you've travelled extensively from your (I'm assuming) small town so proclaiming that you've never met a Jewish person seems extra strange.

Yes, I have (dare I say I have Jewish friends?) but I'd bet my elders have not.

I'm getting out of this post because I'm becoming a distraction from the original discussion. Even saying that is going to be a big distraction, so sorry for the derailment!

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2023 3:43:19 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Aug 23, 2023 2:54:25 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

See also: rural Midwest

You may not have met anyone who is Jewish but it's more likely that you have and it just didn't come up. You wouldn't necessarily know someone is Jewish just by looking at them. Jews look like everyone else.

www.heyalma.com/midwestern-jews-exist-and-our-communities-are-thriving/

It’s also conceivable (even likely?) that there are many places in the US where Jews don’t feel safe telling people that they are Jewish.

[cattledogkisses]

Aug 23, 2023 3:43:19 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Aug 23, 2023 2:54:25 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

See also: rural Midwest

You may not have met anyone who is Jewish but it's more likely that you have and it just didn't come up. You wouldn't necessarily know someone is Jewish just by looking at them. Jews look like everyone else.

www.heyalma.com/midwestern-jews-exist-and-our-communities-are-thriving/

Yes, I don't know how you would know whether someone was Jewish or not unless the topic specifically came up in conversation. 

[Beagle]

I'm an Ashkenazi Jew with an Italian last name. I've been told I look Greek and Italian, which is hilarious because I'm pasty ass white. People see what they want to see.

I grew up keeping Kosher in the home, and my parents still do. They live in an area where there are very few Jews who keep Kosher, and they do just fine. You can do it anywhere, it just might not be as simple as going to one grocery store.

[somersault72]

LOL. I'm from a rural midwest town (granted it's about 45 minutes from a city) and I've met several Jewish people. This is weird.

Anyway, the term "Jewface" makes my skin crawl. I'm glad his kids are cool with the prosthetic, but I think they are only looking at the smaller picture (the one pertaining to their dad) and not the larger one (how Jewish people feel as a whole). It reminds me of when people say "well that one black person said so it's fine/not racist/etc so it must not be". Like Candace Owens would not be elected spokesperson of the POC community (I know that Judiasm is not a race/ethnicity, just making a point).

[basilosaurus]

I went to college in Tennessee, and I went to a fl private school that has a very large Jewish population.

In college I really did met people who said "I never met a Jew" which astonished me.

I do think it's possible that people are so isolated they truly haven't and also that they have but didn't know because people hide, aren't stereotypical, etc. I've known people that are from about 200 people communities all around. They truly may not have known.

It's this tying into without a schnoz no one would know?

And I'm sorry I didn't know about Nicole Kidman. I remember the ptaise but no push back. I think she got an Oscar for it.

[pixy0stix]

I did not meet anyone who identified as Jewish until I got to college. Now did I meet someone before then who was Jewish and I didn't know it, probably. As such, I think both statements are true.

[tacokick]

Not to get too in the weeds but six states have a Jewish population of .1%. 18 states have a population of .5% or less. 40 states are under 2%.

worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/jewish-population-by-state


American Jewish Population Map
www.axismaps.com/projects/brandeis

I think a lot more people than you’d think only encounter Jewish people through media which is why this sort of thing is always an issue.

[AJL]

Aug 23, 2023 10:36:57 GMT -5 somersault72 said:

LOL. I'm from a rural midwest town (granted it's about 45 minutes from a city) and I've met several Jewish people. This is weird.

Anyway, the term "Jewface" makes my skin crawl. I'm glad his kids are cool with the prosthetic, but I think they are only looking at the smaller picture (the one pertaining to their dad) and not the larger one (how Jewish people feel as a whole). It reminds me of when people say "well that one black person said so it's fine/not racist/etc. so it must not be". Like Candace Owens would not be elected spokesperson of the POC community (I know that Judaism is not a race/ethnicity, just making a point).

So how do WE feel as a whole? There is not a single opinion on this issue from Jews nor is there any one opinion from any group who is feeling marginalized. Further more, it's audacious to expect Bernstein's family to take on the feelings and opinions of ALL Jews. Why should they be expected to be the spokespeople for a very large, multi-ethnic, multi-observant, multi-experienced group of people. I think the idea that the Bernsteins should consider the "larger" picture offends me more than the fake nose to begin with. 


Some Jews will really, really care about this. Some Jews really, really, won't care about this. Many Jews will just be meh about the whole thing. 

[AJL]

It's just so much harder to figure out who's a Jew these days, isn't it? We don't have horns anymore, so how can you know? /SARCASM

Honestly, y'all. You have met Jews. You all have. Unless you were the only person in your home and never left it, you met a Jewish person. And guess what? You didn't need to know they were Jewish. Just like I don't need to know which of the people I meet are Catholic or Ghanian or astrophysicists. It doesn't fucking matter. The reality with 7 billion+ people in this world, you've met a Jew (and likely a Catholic person, a Ghanian, and an astrophysicist).

[Patsy Baloney]

I saw this take come across my news/opinion feed yesterday and thought about this thread: www.insider.com/bradley-cooper-jewface-controversy-mrs-maisel-2023-8?amp

“The ire over Cooper's supposed Jewface transgression seems, at best, misguided and misplaced. Yes, Cooper, who isn't Jewish, is playing a man who was Jewish. But Bernstein's life wasn't centered on his experience as a Jewish man, and as far as we can tell the coming biopic, directed by Cooper, isn't either. Instead, it's focused on his relationship with his wife, Felicia Montealegre, played by Carey Mulligan. Bernstein's Jewishness is incidental to the story.

If we're to talk about a problematic portrayal of Jewishness by non-Jewish actors, then the most egregious offender in recent years has got to be "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel." The Prime Video comedy ran for five seasons and garnered heaps of praise and fans, but it featured non-Jews playing some of the most stereotypically Jewish characters seen in years.”

I don’t know that it adds to the conversation, but it does look a little deeper into stereotyping and using non-Jewish actors for roles centered on Jewish identity.

[bronxgirl]

Aug 23, 2023 15:41:08 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

I saw this take come across my news/opinion feed yesterday and thought about this thread: www.insider.com/bradley-cooper-jewface-controversy-mrs-maisel-2023-8?amp

“The ire over Cooper's supposed Jewface transgression seems, at best, misguided and misplaced. Yes, Cooper, who isn't Jewish, is playing a man who was Jewish. But Bernstein's life wasn't centered on his experience as a Jewish man, and as far as we can tell the coming biopic, directed by Cooper, isn't either. Instead, it's focused on his relationship with his wife, Felicia Montealegre, played by Carey Mulligan. Bernstein's Jewishness is incidental to the story.

If we're to talk about a problematic portrayal of Jewishness by non-Jewish actors, then the most egregious offender in recent years has got to be "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel." The Prime Video comedy ran for five seasons and garnered heaps of praise and fans, but it featured non-Jews playing some of the most stereotypically Jewish characters seen in years.”

I don’t know that it adds to the conversation, but it does look a little deeper into stereotyping and using non-Jewish actors for roles centered on Jewish identity.

. Yes, 100% to the Mrs Maisel thing. Primarily non Jewish actors essentially making fun of Jews.

[basilosaurus]

I went to college and had friends who would say, with a straight face, "I never met a Jew before." Almost with pride, definitely no shame. And after having visited their families, homes, schools, it was probably true. At least not openly in those communities.

This was a huge shock to my s Florida ass which I think had the third largest Jewish population in the world. It was roughly half my high school (private and secular, a rarity) class.

But much like people who say they've never met a queer, well, they have. They just aren't comfortable being open. Or it's your retail worker or any other job where it doesn't come up. But I fully have seen how people isolate. Private Christian schools, church, country clubs and that's their entire world.

Sidetrack addressed, I didn't realize there was negativity about Nicole Kidman for her prosthetic nose. I remember her getting an Oscar and people commending her bravery for the nose. But that was more than 20 years ago.

More recently I have read from actors and directors they sell to emulate the persona and not necessarily the look. Maybe the crown was one? So I'm curious why this would go against what seems to my uneducated self the current trend. Especially if he apparently more resembles younger person without a nose

[msmerymac]

Aug 23, 2023 15:41:08 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

I saw this take come across my news/opinion feed yesterday and thought about this thread: www.insider.com/bradley-cooper-jewface-controversy-mrs-maisel-2023-8?amp

“The ire over Cooper's supposed Jewface transgression seems, at best, misguided and misplaced. Yes, Cooper, who isn't Jewish, is playing a man who was Jewish. But Bernstein's life wasn't centered on his experience as a Jewish man, and as far as we can tell the coming biopic, directed by Cooper, isn't either. Instead, it's focused on his relationship with his wife, Felicia Montealegre, played by Carey Mulligan. Bernstein's Jewishness is incidental to the story.

If we're to talk about a problematic portrayal of Jewishness by non-Jewish actors, then the most egregious offender in recent years has got to be "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel." The Prime Video comedy ran for five seasons and garnered heaps of praise and fans, but it featured non-Jews playing some of the most stereotypically Jewish characters seen in years.”

I don’t know that it adds to the conversation, but it does look a little deeper into stereotyping and using non-Jewish actors for roles centered on Jewish identity.

I was also thinking about The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel because I recently started watching the last season. I'm 100% sure neither Rachel Brosnahan nor Tony Shalhoub are Jewish. But Amy Sherman-Palladino, the writer and creator, is (or at least her father was and she has said she was mostly raised Jewish). So much like the children of Leonard Bernstein, SHE was okay with the casting and the portrayals, but she is also only one person.

[bronxgirl]

Aug 25, 2023 10:12:11 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Aug 23, 2023 15:41:08 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

I saw this take come across my news/opinion feed yesterday and thought about this thread: www.insider.com/bradley-cooper-jewface-controversy-mrs-maisel-2023-8?amp

“The ire over Cooper's supposed Jewface transgression seems, at best, misguided and misplaced. Yes, Cooper, who isn't Jewish, is playing a man who was Jewish. But Bernstein's life wasn't centered on his experience as a Jewish man, and as far as we can tell the coming biopic, directed by Cooper, isn't either. Instead, it's focused on his relationship with his wife, Felicia Montealegre, played by Carey Mulligan. Bernstein's Jewishness is incidental to the story.

If we're to talk about a problematic portrayal of Jewishness by non-Jewish actors, then the most egregious offender in recent years has got to be "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel." The Prime Video comedy ran for five seasons and garnered heaps of praise and fans, but it featured non-Jews playing some of the most stereotypically Jewish characters seen in years.”

I don’t know that it adds to the conversation, but it does look a little deeper into stereotyping and using non-Jewish actors for roles centered on Jewish identity.

I was also thinking about The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel because I recently started watching the last season. I'm 100% sure neither Rachel Brosnahan nor Tony Shalhoub are Jewish. But Amy Sherman-Palladino, the writer and creator, is (or at least her father was and she has said she was mostly raised Jewish). So much like the children of Leonard Bernstein, SHE was okay with the casting and the portrayals, but she is also only one person.

I think the actors that play Joel and his father are the only Jewish actors involved. At least in the principle roles.

[AJL]

Aug 25, 2023 11:52:50 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Aug 25, 2023 10:12:11 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I was also thinking about The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel because I recently started watching the last season. I'm 100% sure neither Rachel Brosnahan nor Tony Shalhoub are Jewish. But Amy Sherman-Palladino, the writer and creator, is (or at least her father was and she has said she was mostly raised Jewish). So much like the children of Leonard Bernstein, SHE was okay with the casting and the portrayals, but she is also only one person.

I think the actors that play Joel and his father are the only Jewish actors involved. At least in the principle roles.

Joel, Shirley, and Moishe Maisel are all played by Jewish actors. Alex Borstein (Susie Myerson) is Jewish.

[spinnaker5]

Aug 23, 2023 15:41:08 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

I saw this take come across my news/opinion feed yesterday and thought about this thread: www.insider.com/bradley-cooper-jewface-controversy-mrs-maisel-2023-8?amp

“The ire over Cooper's supposed Jewface transgression seems, at best, misguided and misplaced. Yes, Cooper, who isn't Jewish, is playing a man who was Jewish. But Bernstein's life wasn't centered on his experience as a Jewish man

FWIW, this article has a different take:

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/08/bradley-cooper-maestro-movie-leonard-bernstein-jewish/675106/

”Leonard Bernstein’s musical career similarly cannot be disentangled from his Jewish commitments. In a 1989 interview, the conductor spoke of how his calling was first kindled in synagogue, recalling how “I felt something stir within me, as though I were becoming subconsciously aware of music as my raison d’etre.” Bernstein’s first complete surviving composition was a setting of Psalm 148. Over the course of his life, he wrote more than 20 Jewish works. His first symphony, Jeremiah, was named and modeled after the biblical prophet of lamentation. His third symphony is called Kaddish, after the Jewish mourning prayer, and alternates between the Hebrew and Aramaic of the original text and Bernstein’s haunting English words, which are rife with biblical references to sources as diverse as the Song of Songs and the Book of Job. … As the conductor’s longtime assistant Jack Gottlieb put it, “Bernstein may not have been traditionally observant, but he was deeply Jewish in every other way. In fact, he once described himself as a ‘chip,’ not off the old block, but ‘off the old Tanach,’ the Hebrew acronym for the complete Bible. As a teenager he even briefly flirted with the idea of becoming a rabbi.” Judaism was not incidental to Bernstein’s life; it was essential.“