"Female" Crash Test Dummies

[wawa]

Did you know we didn't really have female representing crash test dummies?  You know how every time you get in a car (except the tall among us) the damn seatbelt is on your neck?  How many of you feel like you could use a booster?  Cars are designed for men.  Despite women doing most of the driving statistically.  

www.forbes.com/sites/evaepker/2023/09/12/fasten-your-seatbelts-a-female-car-crash-test-dummy-represents-average-women-for-the-first-time-in-60-years/?sh=76078ab955ba

well now we get our own dummy!  woo!  

Women are the majority of the drivers and are historically less likely to get into a crash than men are – but they are also 17% more likely to die in a car crash and 73% more likely to sustain serious injuries from a crash than men are. Despite these risks however, car companies’ crash test regimes require tests on only male-representing dummies (or simply, “male dummies”), leaving women unrepresented and unsafe.

Except, it's not actually required by NHTSA or IIHS yet.  And also they didn't mandate it - this was some researchers who decided (correctly) that this was a giant hole in our data and came up with something.  Nobody here works at NHTSA right?  Because I have some smack to talk.

[tacokick]

Yes! I feel like this has been making the news at least since I was in high school and never changed. Until now, I guess. Hopefully it makes a difference.

I was just telling my husband this and he was unsurprised and appalled. I have so many issues with the seatbelt strap and my chest. It’s never in the right spot. It’s a little better in my car (one of the reasons I chose it) but not great.


ETA: I’ve always found it odd because women are customers too. I know no one cares if we live or die but you’d think they’d want to sell us some cars with the “comfy for women” value added. They would/could probably even upcharge for it.

[simpsongal]

Yet another 'how is this the case in 2023?'....

Disappointing that the Fed' Government hasn't been out in front on this. Hopefully, w/the invention of this female dummy they'll catch up and adjust the standards.

Reminds me of the case with medical testing - a lack of differentiation between men and women in clinical trials and assumption that you can just adjust for weigh (as if women will metabolize and react to a prescription drug the same way).

ETA: You'd think there would be an adjustable height/location for the seatbelt, so the angle isn't the same regardless of the driver/passenger...  

[fernweh]

Yes! Even the “female” ones are just smaller versions of the male ones and don’t account for thing like breast.

I’ve said it before but I STRONGLY recommend that everyone reads the book “Invisible Women”. It’s about data bias that don’t account for us and how we are effected. This is one of the many topics covered.

[aurora]

Sept 21, 2023 8:44:00 GMT -5 fernweh said:

Yes! Even the “female” ones are just smaller versions of the male ones and don’t account for thing like breast.

I’ve said it before but I STRONGLY recommend that everyone reads the book “Invisible Women”. It’s about data bias that don’t account for us and how we are effected. This is one of the many topics covered.

As soon as I saw the OP I thought about this book. It's really well done and covers a variety of examples. I swear I also heard a podcast by the author summarizing it but I didn't immediately find it in a search just now.

[StrawberryBlondie]

I did know this but feel like I only learned in the last couple years.

My parents used to have a Buick Rainier. Their back seat seatbelts choked me. I'm 5'7". It was insane.

[pumpkin]

Yes! This is something that I’ve railed about to my family for years, lol. Being large chested is really a problem with seatbelts, and often I have an issue with the side of my neck too. We really need to do better by “us.”

[Velar Fricative]

I knew this thanks to this fantastic book that I always recommend when topics like this come up:

www.amazon.com/Invisible-Women-Data-World-Designed/dp/1419729071

ETA: Or I should just learn to read comments before excitedly posting lol. Sorry fernweh and aurora!

[fernweh]

Sept 21, 2023 8:54:41 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I knew this thanks to this fantastic book that I always recommend when topics like this come up:

www.amazon.com/Invisible-Women-Data-World-Designed/dp/1419729071

ETA: Or I should just learn to read comments before excitedly posting lol. Sorry fernweh and aurora!

No need to be sorry - the more recommendations the better. I think this should be required reading and work in a way to recommend it anytime someone says anything that is even remotely related!

[penguingrrl]

I knew that and it’s infuriating. I’m short (5’1”) and busty and seatbelts pretty much never fit me right. They’re always on my neck. Before I learned better I used to put it under my arm or behind my back because it was so uncomfortable, which is so dangerous but also a natural response to needing it out of the way.

[beetea]

Sept 21, 2023 8:35:54 GMT -5 wawa said:

Did you know we didn't really have female representing crash test dummies?  You know how every time you get in a car (except the tall among us) the damn seatbelt is on your neck?  How many of you feel like you could use a booster?  Cars are designed for men.  Despite women doing most of the driving statistically.  

www.forbes.com/sites/evaepker/2023/09/12/fasten-your-seatbelts-a-female-car-crash-test-dummy-represents-average-women-for-the-first-time-in-60-years/?sh=76078ab955ba

well now we get our own dummy!  woo!  

I am an average 5'5" and have the shortest torso possible. The seatbelt in my minivan (a vehicle mostly driven by women), even at its lowest setting, would come across my face if I didn't constantly have to tug it under my chin. A dude at a drive through fast food place YELLED at me for not wearing my seatbelt properly, as if I could magically redesign my vehicle on the spot. It's bonkers that we just live like this.

[DotAndBuzz]

0% surprised.

H’s car is a Tesla, and I CANNOT, for the life of me, get the seatbelt to hit me right instead of cutting into my neck, and always feel like I’m laying down in the car, even when I adjust the seat upright. I’m 5 ft 3, he’s 6 ft 1.

But my car is a Subaru Ascent. I find it to be really comfortable, and love driving it. I’ve said since I bought it that this car was designed with women in mind, and H whines non-stop about how he just “can’t get comfortable.” See…THIS IS WHAT ITS LIKE DUDE! Welcome to one tiny sliver of what it’s like to have something NOT fully designed with only you in consideration.

[deadwing]

Sept 21, 2023 9:12:23 GMT -5 DotAndBuzz said:

0% surprised.

H’s car is a Tesla, and I CANNOT, for the life of me, get the seatbelt to hit me right instead of cutting into my neck, and always feel like I’m laying down in the car, even when I adjust the seat upright. I’m 5 ft 3, he’s 6 ft 1.

But my car is a Subaru Ascent. I find it to be really comfortable, and love driving it. I’ve said since I bought it that this car was designed with women in mind, and H whines non-stop about how he just “can’t get comfortable.” See…THIS IS WHAT ITS LIKE DUDE! Welcome to one tiny sliver of what it’s like to have something NOT fully designed with only you in consideration.

I'm getting an Ascent next month and your post just made me even more excited for it!  I drive a Forester now and keep a fleece sleeve on the seatbelt because it was cutting into my neck.  I would be very happy not to move that into the Ascent.

[abs]

Sept 21, 2023 9:09:31 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I knew that and it’s infuriating. I’m short (5’1”) and busty and seatbelts pretty much never fit me right. They’re always on my neck. Before I learned better I used to put it under my arm or behind my back because it was so uncomfortable, which is so dangerous but also a natural response to needing it out of the way.

Sameeeee. If you go by the booster seat rules I still need one. Some cars have adjustable seatbelts now which helps but only a little.

[cattledogkisses]

It's so ridiculous that they act like women are just proportionally scaled-down men.

H and I are almost the same height (I'm 5'9 he's 5'10) but when we drive each others' vehicles we still have to adjust the seat positioning to be comfortable because we're shaped differently and have different proportions.

[Susie]

5'2" signing in, and yes, it's infuriating.

I have found that it helps to buy cars that aren't base trim packages, to get additional adjustability in the driver's seat.  If the seat raises & lowers (instead of just forward/back and tilt) it helps the seatbelt hit me at a better spot.  (I'm not talking luxe, but driving SE VW's instead of S.). But even that is a privilege to be able to afford, and safety of women and smaller people shouldn't be a premium feature.  

IDK what to do about air bags.  As a short driver of a manual transmission car, I sit very close to the wheel (and airbag).  I've only been in an accident once where it deployed, but it wrecked me.  It hit mostly at neck and jaw height.

@@@

Accommodating a pregnant belly is another issue.  I know they say to put the lap part of the belt over your thighs/under your belly, but I was never able to accomplish that.  It always came against my belly no matter what I adjusted.  I was acutely aware of the luck involved in making it through those phases of my life without an accident.

[wawa]

Up until recently MH and I have always had our "own" cars. But now we flip back and forth pretty regularly for an assortment of reasons I'll refrain from boring you all with. I'm 5'6" and he's 6'1" and when I get in either vehicle when he was the last one to drive I feel like I'm laying down and the seatbelt is across my face. And I can adjust it alllll the way down, but it's still not where I'd actually want it to be at least in the truck.
I always feel like a child driving that thing. it's so annoying.

my IL's recently rented a big ass surburban (or...expedition? what's the ford version?) for a family vacation so we could all pile in together and the seatbelts in the back were godawful. They were attached to the ceiling and fully wanted to be over my face.

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 21, 2023 13:16:06 GMT -5 wawa said:

Up until recently MH and I have always had our "own" cars. But now we flip back and forth pretty regularly for an assortment of reasons I'll refrain from boring you all with. I'm 5'6" and he's 6'1" and when I get in either vehicle when he was the last one to drive I feel like I'm laying down and the seatbelt is across my face. And I can adjust it alllll the way down, but it's still not where I'd actually want it to be at least in the truck.
I always feel like a child driving that thing. it's so annoying.

my IL's recently rented a big ass surburban (or...expedition? what's the ford version?) for a family vacation so we could all pile in together and the seatbelts in the back were godawful. They were attached to the ceiling and fully wanted to be over my face.

I've had to drive the car he usually drives recently and MY GOD I have asked him multiple times why he drives lying down lol. We don't have as big a height difference either (5'11" and 6'2").

[Pom]

I’m sitting in my car being throttled by the goddamned seatbelt as we speak. Only 6 hours to go. 🙄

[wawa]

Sept 21, 2023 14:10:25 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Sept 21, 2023 13:16:06 GMT -5 wawa said:

Up until recently MH and I have always had our "own" cars. But now we flip back and forth pretty regularly for an assortment of reasons I'll refrain from boring you all with. I'm 5'6" and he's 6'1" and when I get in either vehicle when he was the last one to drive I feel like I'm laying down and the seatbelt is across my face. And I can adjust it alllll the way down, but it's still not where I'd actually want it to be at least in the truck.
I always feel like a child driving that thing. it's so annoying.

my IL's recently rented a big ass surburban (or...expedition? what's the ford version?) for a family vacation so we could all pile in together and the seatbelts in the back were godawful. They were attached to the ceiling and fully wanted to be over my face.

I've had to drive the car he usually drives recently and MY GOD I have asked him multiple times why he drives lying down lol. We don't have as big a height difference either (5'11" and 6'2").

He mocks me for driving like I have a stick up my ass.  
I assume it's a shoulder/armspan thing???  like...even if I move the seat forward I can't REACH like that.  Or see.

And i just want to say for the record to make sure we don't all collectively lose the thread - this shit is annoying on a day to day basis, but it also has very real consequences where we're LESS SAFE than our male counterparts because these safety systems aren't designed to protect us.  
It's infuriating and ridciulous.  

There are rule making comment periods on NHTSA guidelines...people should comment on them. And maybe nag your congress people about it. (they're supposed to be doing something about this - it was in the IIJA.  Along with hood/bumper requirement updates.  Side soapbox: Vehicles should not be getting high marks for safety if they routinely murder pedestrians with their bumper/grill/hood design)

[Deleted]

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@





Similarly, there aren’t really crash test dummies made to specifically replicate children of different sizes and stages of development. The only way to get good data is to use cadavers, and that’s understandably problematic.

[al dente]

Better late then never? Ugh. I hope the government agencies put it into action though.

I'm 5'0 and drive a Prius, and I will say the seatbelt is ok. Growing up my dad would always yell at me about putting the seatbelt under my arm, but I got choked out otherwise! I do sit so extremely close to the steering wheel though I'm pretty sure my neck will snap if the airbag ever goes off.

@@@@@@@@
And when I was pregnant my whole belly would be pressed against the wheel. If I back up at all my feet can't reach the pedals.

[ssmjlm]

From following The Car Mom on IG I have been given a whole lost of new information regarding car safety. She was just talking about how they are finally testing the safety of the second row in minivans. No idea that wasn't already standard.

DH and I have a decent height difference, but ironically, I sit further from the wheel than he does. So the few times I drive his truck, I have to move the seat back. I have a short torso and long legs, despite my short stature. It's kind of funny.

[Deleted]

I'm 5'2" and this really hits home for me. I can never get the seatbelt in the right place and it's made even more difficult by the fact that I am large chested. Several years back I was in a car accident where the airbags deployed. Luckily I was only going about 40mph but it was enough that I had a huge bruise across my neck from my seatbelt. I can only imagine the potential damage to my neck had it been a higher speed accident. I'm so glad that someone is finally doing something about this.

[wawa]

Oh...I will say - finding out after driving the truck regularly for a few weeks that the PEDALS CAN BE MOVED was a huge game changer. (used to be MH's daily driver so I had no reason to know this even though we've owned it for over a decade) Something to look for when vehicle shopping if you're shorter or have a need for a bigger vehicle. I had no idea what the heck that button did until I complained about how far forward I had to have the seat to depress the brake all the way and MH informed me that was adjustable. I'd always just dealt with it before because I only drove the truck for random one-offs or while like...backing up a trailer or something else random where I was perched in weird positions anyway.

Everything else is still just a bit too big, but I can at least sit far enough back that the steering wheel isn't touching my gut.

[dirtyred]

Sept 21, 2023 14:10:25 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Sept 21, 2023 13:16:06 GMT -5 wawa said:

Up until recently MH and I have always had our "own" cars. But now we flip back and forth pretty regularly for an assortment of reasons I'll refrain from boring you all with. I'm 5'6" and he's 6'1" and when I get in either vehicle when he was the last one to drive I feel like I'm laying down and the seatbelt is across my face. And I can adjust it alllll the way down, but it's still not where I'd actually want it to be at least in the truck.
I always feel like a child driving that thing. it's so annoying.

my IL's recently rented a big ass surburban (or...expedition? what's the ford version?) for a family vacation so we could all pile in together and the seatbelts in the back were godawful. They were attached to the ceiling and fully wanted to be over my face.

I've had to drive the car he usually drives recently and MY GOD I have asked him multiple times why he drives lying down lol. We don't have as big a height difference either (5'11" and 6'2").

My DH and I are almost rhe same height, and he also lays down to drive. My dad did, too. Must be a guy thing.

[muffin0]

Sept 21, 2023 8:35:54 GMT -5 wawa said:

Did you know we didn't really have female representing crash test dummies?  You know how every time you get in a car (except the tall among us) the damn seatbelt is on your neck?  How many of you feel like you could use a booster?  Cars are designed for men.  Despite women doing most of the driving statistically.  

www.forbes.com/sites/evaepker/2023/09/12/fasten-your-seatbelts-a-female-car-crash-test-dummy-represents-average-women-for-the-first-time-in-60-years/?sh=76078ab955ba

well now we get our own dummy!  woo!  

Women are the majority of the drivers and are historically less likely to get into a crash than men are – but they are also 17% more likely to die in a car crash and 73% more likely to sustain serious injuries from a crash than men are. Despite these risks however, car companies’ crash test regimes require tests on only male-representing dummies (or simply, “male dummies”), leaving women unrepresented and unsafe.

Except, it's not actually required by NHTSA or IIHS yet.  And also they didn't mandate it - this was some researchers who decided (correctly) that this was a giant hole in our data and came up with something.  Nobody here works at NHTSA right?  Because I have some smack to talk.

Even if they do work for them, THEY NEED TO HEAR IT

[rubytue]

Sept 22, 2023 9:27:10 GMT -5 dirtyred said:

Sept 21, 2023 14:10:25 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I've had to drive the car he usually drives recently and MY GOD I have asked him multiple times why he drives lying down lol. We don't have as big a height difference either (5'11" and 6'2").

My DH and I are almost rhe same height, and he also lays down to drive. My dad did, too. Must be a guy thing.

Yes. It must be. I get so annoyed when H drives my car. I go to get in and literally fall into the seat. I don’t know what he does to it, but it feels like it’s 6 inches lower. And I can’t reach the steering wheel without lots of adjustments. This was much more tolerable when we stuck to “our” car. Now we trade off a lot. Or, he takes mine a lot. A still won’t touch his truck except to move it feet.


&@@@@@@
Not NHTSA, but another agency. We have a 5th percentile female ATD that we use as a 12 year old child. Or maybe it’s vise versa. I know we bought one and then noticed anthropometrically, it’s both.


@@@@@@@@@‘mmm
And don’t even get me started on infant mannequins. Most of what we do is with 50 year old designs. But we have nothing good. OTOH, we aren’t crash testing.

Edit - sorry for forgetting the @. I’ve been traveling and had the oh shit moment at about 30,000 feet. Literally the second thing I did wheels down was come fix this. After texting my rude.

[litebright]

@villainv, the fact that cadavers can be involved in crash testing is the reason I actually DID know that there are not female crash test dummies. I'm pretty sure it was in Mary Roach's book, Stiff, where she goes through the various things that can happen to your body when you die. If you donate your body to science, crash testing is one of the things it can be used for.

[lostrn]

Sept 22, 2023 9:27:10 GMT -5 dirtyred said:

Sept 21, 2023 14:10:25 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I've had to drive the car he usually drives recently and MY GOD I have asked him multiple times why he drives lying down lol. We don't have as big a height difference either (5'11" and 6'2").

My DH and I are almost rhe same height, and he also lays down to drive. My dad did, too. Must be a guy thing.

My DH and I are probably within 1/2 inch of each other and I always have to move his seat way back, away from the steering wheel/pedals and move the back up. I have no idea how he drives like that. I always thought I had weird proportions but after reading the replies here I'm thinking it's more a female vs male thing.