Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (@ mentions)

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2023 16:22:57 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Nov 2, 2023 13:51:39 GMT -5 ohgillian said:

I have been staying out of this thread, because of the drama with various posters, new screen names, etc.

But. I’m really fucking tired of being told that supporting a ceasefire is supporting Hamas and is akin to supporting the Oct 7 massacre. I’m also tired of the delusion that killing every member of Hamas would achieve anything of meaning or value when we still have the exact same circumstances that led to the rise of Hamas in the first place. Do people really think that if we get rid of Hamas, they will just be a vacuum there that won’t get filled?

In the US it's shameful that we haven't learned from the experience of the war in Afghanistan. Almost 20 years of war. Hundreds of thousands of people killed, and the minute we withdraw the old power returned full force. It was all for nothing.

I understand the feeling that “it was all nothing”….but we provided nearly two decades of stability, which allowed women and girls to go to school, get jobs, and vote. A whole generation was educated. I know it feels like the whole thing was futile, but it helps me to think that all the sacrifices I made weren’t for “nothing” (because that is honestly a brutal and depressing thought).

Overall, I think you’re right about Hamas though. Eradicating Hamas now would yield some immediate improvements, but it wouldn’t really solve the long-term problem (just like we didn’t solve the long-term problem in Afghanistan).

[fryjack2]

What’s shameful is the continued messaging to the world that Hamas is the sole problem and cause of the Palestinian people’s problems and the conflicts. That we are all Hamas like and would act as terrorist animals if the Israeli government didn’t control us like they do.

It’s not.

That unethical, illegal, inhumane, different rules for Jews and Palestinians living in the same land, despicable occupation Palestinians live under just might have a little something to do with it.

Just might.

[fryjack2]

As long as a population is occupied or colonized, there will be revolutions and uprisings by groups within those who are occupied or colonized.

This is not new knowledge. History has shown us time and time again that colonizing and occupying other people leads to just that.

If not Hamas, another group will form to try to fight for an end to the occupation and the stop of illegal settlements.

I know people will say that the end goal is the end of Israel. I don’t know any Palestinian who thinks that- because we aren’t all Hamas. If Israel would stop illegal expansion and stop the occupation and let Palestinians live freely in the land designated as theirs, a much higher level of peace will be achieved.

[fryjack2]

Nov 2, 2023 18:27:31 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

At this point, I fear that any Palestinians in Gaza that survive this will be easy targets for radicalization against Israel. And I can’t honestly blame them.

Wow. Please don’t perpetuate the stereotype that all that Palestinians can be, that their only option, is terrorists.

Does every Palestinian dream of being free? Yes. Do they all want to be fighters? No.

[fryjack2]

Everyone should watch Anthony Bourdain’s Parts Unknown Jerusalem Gaza West Bank episode. It’s season 2, episode 1.

[jlt19]

Nov 2, 2023 18:47:28 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Nov 2, 2023 18:27:31 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

At this point, I fear that any Palestinians in Gaza that survive this will be easy targets for radicalization against Israel. And I can’t honestly blame them.

Wow. Please don’t perpetuate the stereotype that all Palestinians can be, that there only option, is terrorists.

Does every Palestinian dream of being free?
Yes. Do they all want to be fighters? No.

Im terribly sorry, that was not the sentiment I intended to convey at all.

[laladypoet]

Nov 2, 2023 16:54:03 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

What’s shameful is the continued messaging to the world that Hamas is the sole problem and cause of the Palestinian people’s problems and the conflicts. That we are all Hamas like and would act as terrorist animals if the Israeli government didn’t control us like they do.

It’s not.

That unethical, illegal, inhumane, different rules for Jews and Palestinians living in the same land, despicable occupation Palestinians live under just might have a little something to do with it.

Just might.

I just don’t think that asking for basic human rights should be controversial.
I’m so sorry that this is happening.

[fryjack2]

jlt19. I know you didn’t mean it maliciously. It just hurts to read comments like that when I know it’s what so many around the world already think of us.

[fryjack2]

They bombed the entrance to a hospital. 42% of the over 9000 dead as of two days ago were children. This is data from the WHO. And Doctors Without Borders.

The unconditional support the US continues to voice for Israel and the billions in weapons aid should be evaluated because this is not supporting defending itself. It’s supporting genocide and war crimes and everyone, no matter their background should be condemning that no matter who is committing them. Netanyahu was atrocious before this started and isn’t any more humane now.

The attempt by so many to blanket label anything condemning the actions of Netanyahu in Gaza or the actions going on in the West Bank, or voicing support for Palestinian people as antisemitism is bullshit.

Anyone who is backing what is happening and spewing bullshit - ahem Sara Foster and Rachel Zoe, without knowing the history of both people in the region or the laws and apartheid practices in the occupied territories should educate themselves before doing so.

The director of human rights at the UN just resigned over what’s going on in Gaza and the worlds lack of response. The director of human rights at the UN. Director of human rights!! The United Nations! FFS!!!

Please call your elected officials and urge them to vote for a ceasefire.

[ohgillian]

Nov 3, 2023 13:34:39 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

The director of human rights at the UN just resigned over what’s going on in Gaza and the worlds lack of response. The director of human rights at the UN. Director of human rights!! The United Nations! FFS!!!

Sources: www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york

or

www.nytimes.com/2023/10/31/world/middleeast/israel-airstrike-gaza-jabaliya.html?unlocked_article_code=1.7kw.6d1W.HevljuRTKY7B&smid=url-share  [gift link]

Interesting (but not surprising) to me that neither CNN nor WaPo are giving this much coverage at all and if either has shared the full letter, I don't see it on their sites. 

[pixy0stix]

apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-3-2023-94d5d0b58bc10a14be6ac191060e47e1

Israel resists US pressure to pause the war to allow more aid to Gaza, wants hostages back first

[ohgillian]

Nov 3, 2023 14:13:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-3-2023-94d5d0b58bc10a14be6ac191060e47e1

Israel resists US pressure to pause the war to allow more aid to Gaza, wants hostages back first

This is categorically what I am hearing from other Jews. I’m having a hard time with it, honestly.

I don’t know if I used “categorically” right here. But what I mean is, basically across the board.

[fryjack2]

Nov 3, 2023 14:13:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-3-2023-94d5d0b58bc10a14be6ac191060e47e1

Israel resists US pressure to pause the war to allow more aid to Gaza, wants hostages back first

Then why are they continuing to bomb places the hostages may be?

Rhetorical question.

[AJL]

Nov 3, 2023 14:22:49 GMT -5 ohgillian said:

Nov 3, 2023 14:13:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-3-2023-94d5d0b58bc10a14be6ac191060e47e1

Israel resists US pressure to pause the war to allow more aid to Gaza, wants hostages back first

This is categorically what I am hearing from other Jews. I’m having a hard time with it, honestly.

I don’t know if I used “categorically” right here. But what I mean is, basically across the board.

Can I ask you why you're having a hard time with this? I'm not playing gotcha or anything here. 

[ohgillian]

Nov 3, 2023 18:41:37 GMT -5 AJL said:

Nov 3, 2023 14:22:49 GMT -5 ohgillian said:

This is categorically what I am hearing from other Jews. I’m having a hard time with it, honestly.

I don’t know if I used “categorically” right here. But what I mean is, basically across the board.

Can I ask you why you're having a hard time with this? I'm not playing gotcha or anything here. 

Sure. I’d honestly love to discuss it and hear more of your views.

I feel like, we don’t get to kill Palestinian citizens just because they killed Israeli citizens. And it’s starting to feel like that is what’s happening.

I’m having a hard time with it because so many people are dying. And it feels like a very “eye for an eye” response. I think also because I don’t see the value in taking out Hamas because as I mentioned up thread, I feel that will just leave a vacuum that will be filed by new terrorists until we address the circumstances that led to the development of Hamas.

I’m concerned that much of the world is saying “hey we’re concerned” and that maybe we should be paying attention to that. I may be naive but I don’t think that’s just antisemitism. I think it’s people who have a more objective view.

I mean this truly - I would love to hear your thoughts. I am under no illusion that I have the answers.

[pixy0stix]

Unprecedented number of journalists have been killed - www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208019720/journalist-deaths-gaza-israel-hamas

There's a lot of speculation that journalists are being specifically targeted.

[AJL]

Nov 3, 2023 18:59:36 GMT -5 ohgillian said:

Nov 3, 2023 18:41:37 GMT -5 AJL said:

Can I ask you why you're having a hard time with this? I'm not playing gotcha or anything here. 

Sure. I’d honestly love to discuss it and hear more of your views.

I feel like, we don’t get to kill Palestinian citizens just because they killed Israeli citizens. And it’s starting to feel like that is what’s happening.

I’m having a hard time with it because so many people are dying. And it feels like a very “eye for an eye” response. I think also because I don’t see the value in taking out Hamas because as I mentioned up thread, I feel that will just leave a vacuum that will be filed by new terrorists until we address the circumstances that led to the development of Hamas.

I’m concerned that much of the world is saying “hey we’re concerned” and that maybe we should be paying attention to that. I may be naive but I don’t think that’s just antisemitism. I think it’s people who have a more objective view.

I mean this truly - I would love to hear your thoughts. I am under no illusion that I have the answers.

I have zero answers and I honestly don’t have any real substantive opinions. I’m still very influenced by my own emotions and need some more time to articulate an objective comment about this.

[ohgillian]

Nov 3, 2023 21:09:00 GMT -5 AJL said:

Nov 3, 2023 18:59:36 GMT -5 ohgillian said:

Sure. I’d honestly love to discuss it and hear more of your views.

I feel like, we don’t get to kill Palestinian citizens just because they killed Israeli citizens. And it’s starting to feel like that is what’s happening.

I’m having a hard time with it because so many people are dying. And it feels like a very “eye for an eye” response. I think also because I don’t see the value in taking out Hamas because as I mentioned up thread, I feel that will just leave a vacuum that will be filed by new terrorists until we address the circumstances that led to the development of Hamas.

I’m concerned that much of the world is saying “hey we’re concerned” and that maybe we should be paying attention to that. I may be naive but I don’t think that’s just antisemitism. I think it’s people who have a more objective view.

I mean this truly - I would love to hear your thoughts. I am under no illusion that I have the answers.

I have zero answers and I honestly don’t have any real substantive opinions. I’m still very influenced by my own emotions and need some more time to articulate an objective comment about this.

❤️

[fryjack2]

Here's the thing. The Palestine Nakba of 1947-1949 was our version of the Holocaust. We lost our homeland (Arab Christians, Arab Jews, and Arab Muslims all lived in Palestine together), our people were slaughtered, our homes were stolen, our land was stolen, our ability to return was made illegal. We were ethnically cleansed. Every time there is conflict or settlements expand or people bombed, it is a horrible reminder of what happened and brings back the fear that another Nakba will happen to us.

And now it is in Gaza and I fear will be fully in the West Bank soon.

I understand that the horrific terrorist attack on Oct. 7th brings up similar fears for Jewish people, and many have said just that- it brings up fears of the Holocaust and a reminder of how Jews are treated around the globe. Rightly so. We all know about that plane in Russia and how terrifying that was and have seen the number of antisemetic incidents rise.

We constantly hear about the Holocaust and learned about it in school (as we should). We do not hear about the Nakba of the Palestinian people. We did not learn about it in school. The world has tried to downplay the Nakba and the tragic impact it has left. If you know any Palestinian, ask them how many family members they lost in the Nakba. Ask them what their grandparent's experience was during the Nakba. Ask them where the key to their grandparent's house in Palestine is. Ask them how long their grandparents thought they would be gone. Ask them if their grandparents ever thought they would never be allowed to return. Ask them if they still have family in Palestine. Ask them what their life is like there. Ask them what their family members in Palestine and wherever else in the world they became refugees in are feeling right now. Learn a Palestinian's history.

Peace will not be remotely possible until Palestinian people are free from occupation. There will be Hamas or something like Hamas as long as Palestine is occupied. The violence will continue as long as the occupation does. Its a chicken or the egg like question-is Hamas or the occupation the root of the violence? Or both?

End the occupation.

[aprilsails]

The Daily podcast episode titled 1948 which came out this week had excellent background information on the relationship between Arab and Jewish residents in the region and the fallout from the 1948 war.

[laladypoet]

The silence on this thread is deafening.

[aprilsails]

Nov 6, 2023 0:23:21 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

The silence on this thread is deafening.

The entire world is collectively watching an absolute disaster unfold and holding our breaths that someone else will fix it. I am horrified. I have contacted my political representatives and donated to aid organizations. I still feel absolutely powerless and crushed every time I see any news related to this entire series of events.

There are no winners in a fight between two victims.

[fryjack2]

Queen Rania’s interview yesterday is worth a watch

www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/06/exp-queen-rania-middle-east-becky-anderson-intv-110503pseg02--cnni-world.cnn

[fryjack2]

Nov 6, 2023 5:34:33 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

Nov 6, 2023 0:23:21 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

The silence on this thread is deafening.

The entire world is collectively watching an absolute disaster unfold and holding our breaths that someone else will fix it. I am horrified. I have contacted my political representatives and donated to aid organizations. I still feel absolutely powerless and crushed every time I see any news related to this entire series of events.

There are no winners in a fight between two victims.

An important aspect of this fight, is one victim is occupying the other victim.

One has a leader who is on record from decades back saying he doesn’t believe there should be a Palestinian state, has declared his intent to commit genocide, enacting it, ignoring international law, has called Palestinian children the darkness, and was not liked by most Jewish people I know.

The other is led by a terrorist organization who wants Israel gone. Who has committed atrocious acts. Who has just as little regard for civilian life as Netanyahu does.


While that podcast shares history, you can hear the bias in it as well. The very opening where David says a paragraph on the way Israelis recognize 1948 and then one sentence for the way Palestinians do. Or the downplaying of the Nakba as well. Or victim blaming about not accepting Israel’s offer to build buildings in the refugee camps. You know why? Because a building that Israel builds is very easy to turn into a building where Israelis live. One less step in expanding settlements.

David says that when he asked a Palestinian teenager in a refugee camp where he was from, he answered with the name of a coastal town where his parents and grandparents were born that is now part of Israel. And acted as though that answer was delusional. He clearly was born in the refugee camp. Obviously he was born in the refugee camp. That’s obvious to him and to David asking him. Every other human in the world will say they are Irish or French or Brazilian or whatever their heritage is, but this child’s answer is used to negatively convey that kids are taught early on about the promise given to their family of a return. Why is he not allowed to share what his heritage when asked?

And David downplayed the Nakba as well. Only a few villages were massacred? I’d love to hear how many constitute “a few.”

But I was impressed that it mentioned Rabin’s memoir and the parts that were removed that admitted that Israel did commit massacres and did forcibly remove Palestinians.

[basilosaurus]

Nov 6, 2023 0:23:21 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

The silence on this thread is deafening.

A 10 page thread is deafening silence?!

[laladypoet]

Nov 6, 2023 6:52:52 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Nov 6, 2023 0:23:21 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

The silence on this thread is deafening.

A 10 page thread is deafening silence?!

This thread lays dormant for sometimes days while horrific things are happening. Come on now. And I’ve seen longer threads about broadway shows.

[AJL]

Nov 6, 2023 8:07:42 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 6, 2023 6:52:52 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

A 10 page thread is deafening silence?!

This thread lays dormant for sometimes days while horrific things are happening. Come on now. And I’ve seen longer threads about broadway shows.

You know what? Get out of here with this. Where have you been since this thread began? It could be that we're overwhelmed, exhausted, mourning, angry, needing to take care of ourselves, needing to put some space between our lives outside the board and this message board. A whole host of things. 

If you're so keen to keep the discussion going, then post something. But you come in here all righteous indignation to scold us for our silence? Girl, bye.

[pixy0stix]

Nov 6, 2023 8:07:42 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 6, 2023 6:52:52 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

A 10 page thread is deafening silence?!

This thread lays dormant for sometimes days while horrific things are happening. Come on now. And I’ve seen longer threads about broadway shows.

You obviously have the ability to post, so you are complicit as well. Coming in and nagging a board that is already engaged is something.

[Saudade]

Nov 6, 2023 0:23:21 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

The silence on this thread is deafening.

What do you want us to say? We've been vocal about the atrocities happening. It's a very complicated and nuanced situation.

I've written that I don't have the knowledge or background to truly comment on. I was raised atheist and beyond 1 semester basic religion class in college, I don't have any religious knowledge. I don't understand the religious complexities. I can only write about my experience working with refugees (Palestinian and Syrian) in the Middle East. I've worked in the (former) Palestinian refugee camp in Jordan (Jabal al Hussein). I've heard the stories of the refugees. I also read the stories and lived experiences of Jewish posters. 

NONE of us are condoning the actions by Hamas or Israel. That doesn't make us "silent". 

[pixy0stix]

Also, this board is slow as shit. We've lost a lot of engagement of the past two years. Comparing the Hamilton threads to now is laughable. It just shows how often she's checking in here, aka hardly ever.