How America’s Diet Is Feeding the Groundwater Crisis

[pixy0stix]

Gift link - How America’s Diet Is Feeding the Groundwater Crisis

Apparently my gift to the board to close out 2023 is to bring articles of doom and gloom. You're welcome.

[pixy0stix]

And low-cost dairy products have a social benefit, said Marissa Watson, vice president of sustainability for Dairy West, which represents farmers in Idaho and Utah. Dairy is “a really affordable protein,” particularly compared to less water-intensive but far costlier dairy alternatives like oat milk, she said. When food insecurity is part of the equation, Ms. Watson said, “you’re having a very different conversation.”

I dislike this sort of red herring. Yes, it's part of the equation, but a very small part. We can figure out alternatives for food and/or change our eating habits. We can't create more water.

[pixy0stix]

I eat a lot of chicken and cheese. sigh...

[SusanBAnthony]

The graph of how much of each that Americans eat is super interesting. I would have guessed that all meat changed at about the same rate. Why are people eating way more chicken?

I had no idea we were eating a lot more cheese either.

What are we not eating in it's place? Or are we just eating more?

Off to read more....

[SusanBAnthony]

Ok I got halfway through and got fed up.

We should charge for groundwater, the end.

[pixy0stix]

RE: Why are we eating more chicken - I think the marketing that beef is bad for your health, and really bad for the environment is working. However, in typical American fashion, we're not switching over to plant based protein sources. We're still wanting to eat animal products so we upped our chicken consumption.

[penguingrrl]

Dec 29, 2023 12:09:56 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

RE: Why are we eating more chicken - I think the marketing that beef is bad for your health, and really bad for the environment is working. However, in typical American fashion, we're not switching over to plant based protein sources. We're still wanting to eat animal products so we upped our chicken consumption.

I was going to say the exact same thing. The diet industry has done a great job convincing us that chicken is healthier than beef, so Americans have switched over. My sister is a surgeon and strongly believes that animal products are all equally bad for us and that we should be focusing on plant-based whole foods with limited meat (a serving every few weeks and no dairy.

What’s interesting is different people’s definitions of “a lot.” We eat red meat maybe 3-4x a year in my house, and any meat (including fish) maybe twice a week if that. not even entirely sure why other than I never ate it more than that, nor did my mom, and H no longer likes it really. My MIL has talked about cutting back on red meat for environmental reasons, but for her cutting back is “only 3-4 meals a week.”

[pixy0stix]

Dec 29, 2023 12:16:19 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Dec 29, 2023 12:09:56 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

RE: Why are we eating more chicken - I think the marketing that beef is bad for your health, and really bad for the environment is working. However, in typical American fashion, we're not switching over to plant based protein sources. We're still wanting to eat animal products so we upped our chicken consumption.

I was going to say the exact same thing. The diet industry has done a great job convincing us that chicken is healthier than beef, so Americans have switched over. My sister is a surgeon and strongly believes that animal products are all equally bad for us and that we should be focusing on plant-based whole foods with limited meat (a serving every few weeks and no dairy.

What’s interesting is different people’s definitions of “a lot.” We eat red meat maybe 3-4x a year in my house, and any meat (including fish) maybe twice a week if that. not even entirely sure why other than I never ate it more than that, nor did my mom, and H no longer likes it really. My MIL has talked about cutting back on red meat for environmental reasons, but for her cutting back is “only 3-4 meals a week.”

To further this, people think about their consumption per meal (like your MIL) and not by serving. I read recently that one 12 oz steak is 3.5 servings of red meat.

[quesyrah]

Dec 29, 2023 12:09:56 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

RE: Why are we eating more chicken - I think the marketing that beef is bad for your health, and really bad for the environment is working. However, in typical American fashion, we're not switching over to plant based protein sources. We're still wanting to eat animal products so we upped our chicken consumption.

100% yes.

DH has been working in sustainability the last 1-2 years and is the PM of his company’s zero waste goal. It’s been interesting how it’s changed our habits at home.

So we’ve started eating way less red meat, but some members of my household don’t like beans, or tofu or other things I’ve tried to replace beef with so I’ve been buying more chicken and pork.

[Scout'sHonor]

Would the increase in crop needed for a plant based diet still take less water than the animal farming though?

[pixy0stix]

Dec 29, 2023 12:38:46 GMT -5 Scout'sHonor said:

Would the increase in crop needed for a plant based diet still take less water than the animal farming though?

I'm pulling this out of the facts in my head, but animal protein production consumes anywhere from 2 to 6 times more water.

Per the articles I posted, a lot of the plant crops now that are water intensive are being fed into meat production. The problem is that in our typical American fashion we'd probably start demanding more products like almonds (which are one of the worst water consumers).

[Scout'sHonor]

Dec 29, 2023 12:46:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Dec 29, 2023 12:38:46 GMT -5 Scout'sHonor said:

Would the increase in crop needed for a plant based diet still take less water than the animal farming though?

I'm pulling this out of the facts in my head, but animal protein production consumes anywhere from 2 to 6 times more water.

Per the articles I posted, a lot of the plant crops now that are water intensive are being fed into meat production. The problem is that in our typical American fashion we'd probably start demanding more products like almonds (which are one of the worst water consumers).

Oh yeah, that makes sense, that there would be a decrease in the plants needed to feed animals. 

[penguingrrl]

Dec 29, 2023 12:33:04 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Dec 29, 2023 12:16:19 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I was going to say the exact same thing. The diet industry has done a great job convincing us that chicken is healthier than beef, so Americans have switched over. My sister is a surgeon and strongly believes that animal products are all equally bad for us and that we should be focusing on plant-based whole foods with limited meat (a serving every few weeks and no dairy.

What’s interesting is different people’s definitions of “a lot.” We eat red meat maybe 3-4x a year in my house, and any meat (including fish) maybe twice a week if that. not even entirely sure why other than I never ate it more than that, nor did my mom, and H no longer likes it really. My MIL has talked about cutting back on red meat for environmental reasons, but for her cutting back is “only 3-4 meals a week.”

To further this, people think about their consumption per meal (like your MIL) and not by serving. I read recently that one 12 oz steak is 3.5 servings of red meat.

That’s also a really important point. It’s like alcohol, however much you can fit in your huge wine glass isn’t “a glass of wine.”

[pixy0stix]

Dec 29, 2023 13:26:28 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Dec 29, 2023 12:33:04 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

To further this, people think about their consumption per meal (like your MIL) and not by serving. I read recently that one 12 oz steak is 3.5 servings of red meat.

That’s also a really important point. It’s like alcohol, however much you can fit in your huge wine glass isn’t “a glass of wine.”

Wine serving threads here and on ML crack me up. "The bottle said 5 servings, but we only get 2 out of the bottle!" 

[meanie]

Very interesting - this is one of those things that you don't even realize because the issue is a byproduct.

On a much broader scale human activity is again driving climate crisis, shocker!

Related - I have read a bit about how monocrops are impacting the ecosystem, increasing risk of plant disease and multiplying pests and in turn increasing our reliance on chemicals to grow food.

Animal, Vegetable, Miracle by Barbara Kingsolver is a good read about the impact of industrial farming

It is all very frustrating in the end though, I feel very small when I read how yet another company/industry/human activity is wrecking the planet.

[BlondeSpiders]

Dec 29, 2023 13:29:01 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Dec 29, 2023 13:26:28 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

That’s also a really important point. It’s like alcohol, however much you can fit in your huge wine glass isn’t “a glass of wine.”

Wine serving threads here and on ML crack me up. "The bottle said 5 servings, but we only get 2 out of the bottle!" 

[basilosaurus]

Dec 29, 2023 13:49:56 GMT -5 BlondeSpiders said:

Dec 29, 2023 13:29:01 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Wine serving threads here and on ML crack me up. "The bottle said 5 servings, but we only get 2 out of the bottle!" 

If I drink straight from the bottle, it's only one serving!

I know overall meat is more environmentally costly than plants. But I wonder if there's a comparison about specific replacement plants like cow vs almond milk. And adding to that if there's a location variant, like almonds coming from drought prone California vs cows and their feed coming from the plains region.

[sillygoosegirl]

Dec 30, 2023 2:25:34 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Dec 29, 2023 13:49:56 GMT -5 BlondeSpiders said:

If I drink straight from the bottle, it's only one serving!

I know overall meat is more environmentally costly than plants. But I wonder if there's a comparison about specific replacement plants like cow vs almond milk. And adding to that if there's a location variant, like almonds coming from drought prone California vs cows and their feed coming from the plains region.

I wonder about this too. I mean, if you are feeding the cow corn instead of, say, eating the corn yourself, that's clearly really inefficient. But I also see cows out grazing the uncultivated semi-desert grasses in eastern Oregon... and that doesn't look too bad. I don't think I can digest what the cow is eating and I don't think it's being cultivated either. But I can only assume that we don't have enough of that sort of land to grow the quantity of cows people want to eat, and of course the grass fed beef is also a lot more expensive, so presumably it's costing the farmers more in other ways (mostly land and human labor, I'd assume).

[SusanBAnthony]

Dec 30, 2023 7:04:37 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

Dec 30, 2023 2:25:34 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

If I drink straight from the bottle, it's only one serving!

I know overall meat is more environmentally costly than plants. But I wonder if there's a comparison about specific replacement plants like cow vs almond milk. And adding to that if there's a location variant, like almonds coming from drought prone California vs cows and their feed coming from the plains region.

I wonder about this too. I mean, if you are feeding the cow corn instead of, say, eating the corn yourself, that's clearly really inefficient. But I also see cows out grazing the uncultivated semi-desert grasses in eastern Oregon... and that doesn't look too bad. I don't think I can digest what the cow is eating and I don't think it's being cultivated either. But I can only assume that we don't have enough of that sort of land to grow the quantity of cows people want to eat, and of course the grass fed beef is also a lot more expensive, so presumably it's costing the farmers more in other ways (mostly land and human labor, I'd assume).

This is an important question IMO. My guess is that eating almonds vs corn is actually a pretty small percentage of the problem but idk.

My uncle is a beef farmer and he basically does cows because his land isn't good for corn/soybeans. It's hilly and rocky but has plenty of grass for them to eat. And even still he has to supplement food in the winter. But if we only produced beef on land that both could easily support cows (Ie had enough for them to eat and enough water) and couldn't be farmed for grains/fruits/veg, we would hardly have any meat on a PP basis.

So at the end of the day it still comes back to eating less meat, which would naturally happen if you had to pay the full real cost.

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2023 7:58:57 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

Dec 30, 2023 7:04:37 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

I wonder about this too. I mean, if you are feeding the cow corn instead of, say, eating the corn yourself, that's clearly really inefficient. But I also see cows out grazing the uncultivated semi-desert grasses in eastern Oregon... and that doesn't look too bad. I don't think I can digest what the cow is eating and I don't think it's being cultivated either. But I can only assume that we don't have enough of that sort of land to grow the quantity of cows people want to eat, and of course the grass fed beef is also a lot more expensive, so presumably it's costing the farmers more in other ways (mostly land and human labor, I'd assume).

This is an important question IMO. My guess is that eating almonds vs corn is actually a pretty small percentage of the problem but idk.

My uncle is a beef farmer and he basically does cows because his land isn't good for corn/soybeans. It's hilly and rocky but has plenty of grass for them to eat. And even still he has to supplement food in the winter. But if we only produced beef on land that both could easily support cows (Ie had enough for them to eat and enough water) and couldn't be farmed for grains/fruits/veg, we would hardly have any meat on a PP basis.

So at the end of the day it still comes back to eating less meat, which would naturally happen if you had to pay the full real cost.

I remember meat being VERY expensive (by American standards) when we lived in the UK ten years ago. Easily double what we pay in the US, and much higher quality. People just ate less of it (smaller portions, more veg, less often).

When the cost of meat started going up here, I noticed that we cut way back on it. I honestly think a huge price increase is what it would take for most Americans to change their eating habits. And of course it would impact lower income households first and hardest, and right now we don’t have a lot of good options for replacing meat in everyone’s diet, especially in food deserts.

ETA: I just checked the cost of a cooked rotisserie chicken at my grocery store. $6.99. I think this is pretty standard. If you think of the life of that chicken, how much it cost to raise it, feed it, transport it, kill it, cook it, package it, and sell it again, and that that can be done for less than $7 including profit, it’s actually quite disgusting. What nasty conditions did it live in, what low-quality food was it fed?

[Jalapeñomel]

Dec 29, 2023 13:29:01 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Dec 29, 2023 13:26:28 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

That’s also a really important point. It’s like alcohol, however much you can fit in your huge wine glass isn’t “a glass of wine.”

Wine serving threads here and on ML crack me up. "The bottle said 5 servings, but we only get 2 out of the bottle!" 

Dec 29, 2023 13:29:01 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Dec 29, 2023 13:26:28 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

That’s also a really important point. It’s like alcohol, however much you can fit in your huge wine glass isn’t “a glass of wine.”

Wine serving threads here and on ML crack me up. "The bottle said 5 servings, but we only get 2 out of the bottle!" 

I’ve been reading a bit on the “science” (maybe a misnomer here) of serving size, and it’s not really cut and dry. And according to the FDA www.fda.gov/food/nutrition-facts-label/serving-size-nutrition-facts-label, serving size is “based on the amount of food people typically consume, rather than how much they should consume. Serving sizes reflect the amount people typically eat and drink.”

Regardless, I think the only real way to make a lasting difference is to cut it out entirely, and I know that’s really hard for most of us.

Edit: not sure why the quote is wonky

[sent]

Dec 30, 2023 8:14:08 GMT -5 @villainv said:

ETA: I just checked the cost of a cooked rotisserie chicken at my grocery store. $6.99. I think this is pretty standard. If you think of the life of that chicken, how much it cost to raise it, feed it, transport it, kill it, cook it, package it, and sell it again, and that that can be done for less than $7 including profit, it’s actually quite disgusting. What nasty conditions did it live in, what low-quality food was it fed?

I read it's a loss leader for Costco to sell their rotisserie chickens. I know you said grocery store and the Costco example is extreme but Costco is probably buying more chickens in general to sell. They don't sell a ton of those rotisserie chickens at the grocery stores around here. It might be regional.

[Velar Fricative]

I do appreciate my lactose intolerance becoming increasingly worse because I’ve converted to vegan dairy almost entirely (lactose-free Greek yogurt is the exception but I just found a possible protein-rich alternative that I hope is tasty).

I’ve reduced meat consumption too in no small part due to increased costs. But the meat industries have really succeeded in making most Americans complain about costs while still consuming as much meat as they normally do because that’s what creates a meal. Vegetarian and vegan options are still considered liberal conspiracies or not manly enough…

Also I did read this a couple of weeks ago but figured Pixy wanted the honor of dooming and glooming us lol.

[aurora]

Dec 30, 2023 7:58:57 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

Dec 30, 2023 7:04:37 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

I wonder about this too. I mean, if you are feeding the cow corn instead of, say, eating the corn yourself, that's clearly really inefficient. But I also see cows out grazing the uncultivated semi-desert grasses in eastern Oregon... and that doesn't look too bad. I don't think I can digest what the cow is eating and I don't think it's being cultivated either. But I can only assume that we don't have enough of that sort of land to grow the quantity of cows people want to eat, and of course the grass fed beef is also a lot more expensive, so presumably it's costing the farmers more in other ways (mostly land and human labor, I'd assume).

This is an important question IMO. My guess is that eating almonds vs corn is actually a pretty small percentage of the problem but idk.

My uncle is a beef farmer and he basically does cows because his land isn't good for corn/soybeans. It's hilly and rocky but has plenty of grass for them to eat. And even still he has to supplement food in the winter. But if we only produced beef on land that both could easily support cows (Ie had enough for them to eat and enough water) and couldn't be farmed for grains/fruits/veg, we would hardly have any meat on a PP basis.

So at the end of the day it still comes back to eating less meat, which would naturally happen if you had to pay the full real cost.

It would solve a lot of problems if "externalities" (which is kind of a misnomer) were included in the costs of everything we did, for sure.

[pixy0stix]

Dec 30, 2023 9:53:35 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Also I did read this a couple of weeks ago but figured Pixy wanted the honor of dooming and glooming us lol.

Ha! I've been behind in terrorizing the board because of my new job.

[gretchenindisguise]

Dec 30, 2023 9:53:35 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I do appreciate my lactose intolerance becoming increasingly worse because I’ve converted to vegan dairy almost entirely (lactose-free Greek yogurt is the exception but I just found a possible protein-rich alternative that I hope is tasty).

.

Try Siggis plant based. It’s my favorite vegan high protein yogurt, it’s not greek though.

[Velar Fricative]

Dec 30, 2023 11:17:46 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

Dec 30, 2023 9:53:35 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I do appreciate my lactose intolerance becoming increasingly worse because I’ve converted to vegan dairy almost entirely (lactose-free Greek yogurt is the exception but I just found a possible protein-rich alternative that I hope is tasty).

.

Try Siggis plant based. It’s my favorite vegan high protein yogurt, it’s not greek though.

That’s the one I just ordered!

[basilosaurus]

Dec 30, 2023 9:32:59 GMT -5 sent said:

Dec 30, 2023 8:14:08 GMT -5 @villainv said:

ETA: I just checked the cost of a cooked rotisserie chicken at my grocery store. $6.99. I think this is pretty standard. If you think of the life of that chicken, how much it cost to raise it, feed it, transport it, kill it, cook it, package it, and sell it again, and that that can be done for less than $7 including profit, it’s actually quite disgusting. What nasty conditions did it live in, what low-quality food was it fed?

I read it's a loss leader for Costco to sell their rotisserie chickens. I know you said grocery store and the Costco example is extreme but Costco is probably buying more chickens in general to sell. They don't sell a ton of those rotisserie chickens at the grocery stores around here. It might be regional.

People went positively feral for rotisserie costco chicken on Sunday evenings in Hawaii. There would be, no lie, at least 20 carts crowding, waiting for them to sling the next batch, people diving in and looking at each one and throwing them back. I've never seen such a scene. But, $6 (at the time) for a whole chicken was such a massive bargain considering local prices. WF was not much more but was far less meat. The one chicken gave us many meals (my portion size of meat is roughly 2oz, and I freeze the rest) plus carcass for broth that I froze, so I can't fault people making such an economical decision.

But, that's the root problem, isn't it? Buying a costco chicken is more economical, healthier on the body at least, than so many other options. And, environmentally, it still may be better than alternatives.

[basilosaurus]

Dec 30, 2023 9:53:35 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I do appreciate my lactose intolerance becoming increasingly worse because I’ve converted to vegan dairy almost entirely (lactose-free Greek yogurt is the exception but I just found a possible protein-rich alternative that I hope is tasty).

I’ve reduced meat consumption too in no small part due to increased costs. But the meat industries have really succeeded in making most Americans complain about costs while still consuming as much meat as they normally do because that’s what creates a meal. Vegetarian and vegan options are still considered liberal conspiracies or not manly enough…

Also I did read this a couple of weeks ago but figured Pixy wanted the honor of dooming and glooming us lol.

There was an excellent vegan restaurant in my home town that was pretty pricey. My dad would bitch that he was paying that much for no meat. His wife was former vegan and then vegetarian, so she'd push him into taking me there on rare visits since that was the sole thing she and I had in common was preference for not-meat. What also helped my dad was it was byob, minus a modest corkage fee. But he is of a generation/background that thinks if it's not meat it's not worth much money. 

I wonder how much this mentality will change with the boomers dying out. Certainly, since they were also of the hippie generation, many are veg friendly. It's not like the depression era grandparents who saw meat as a luxury, a sign they've succeeded. But, then I look at the magats, blasting beer cans, and I wonder. There's so much entrenched in "red meat - Murca" pride. Just look at the anti Michelle Obama hatred for encouraging vegetables.

Basically, we're fucked. 

[Jalapeñomel]

Dec 30, 2023 9:53:35 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I do appreciate my lactose intolerance becoming increasingly worse because I’ve converted to vegan dairy almost entirely (lactose-free Greek yogurt is the exception but I just found a possible protein-rich alternative that I hope is tasty).

I’ve reduced meat consumption too in no small part due to increased costs. But the meat industries have really succeeded in making most Americans complain about costs while still consuming as much meat as they normally do because that’s what creates a meal. Vegetarian and vegan options are still considered liberal conspiracies or not manly enough…

Also I did read this a couple of weeks ago but figured Pixy wanted the honor of dooming and glooming us lol.

I also think part of the problem is when people try to give up meat they go for meat substitute items which almost always taste nothing like the “real thing.” If people realized that vegetarians and vegans eat their own types of meals, not just meat substitute meals, they may realize there are other, more delicious options.