@Book Bans - What if They Aren't Terrible? spoiler: they are

[Scout'sHonor]

Jan 9, 2024 11:31:32 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jan 9, 2024 11:20:20 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Because, you don't know what might encourage a kid to read.

well...huh.  good point.  all the voracious readers I know as an adult read "inappropriate" shit as kids.  Bodice rippers as gateway to being a lifelong reader?  I want to see a study on it.

I was on the Christopher Pike -> Dean Koontz & Stephen King pathway 

[wanderingback]

Jan 9, 2024 11:39:41 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

I get it wawa. I have a 4th grader and she came home from school one day really upset that her class book club didn't get assigned to read "A Night Divided" like another group did.

I have read this book. As an adult. It's really good. For those that don't know it, it's about a girl and her brother who get trapped at home in East Berlin when the wall goes up and their father is on the other side because he happened to be away when it happened, and their effort to escape.

It's YA, but a part of me was like man, is this really appropriate for a 9 year old???

I don’t have a 9 year old so maybe I’ll understand in a few years, but what is wrong with what you described for a 9 year old?

As to the OP, I definitely don’t think there should be general book bans. Obviously books for a 2nd grader should look different than for a 12th grader, but in general I trust that the librarian is putting books in that are appropriate reading level for different ages.

[wanderingback]

Also, I say this often but wow people’s memory amazes me lol. I don’t remember what I read 2 years ago, let alone when I was in middle or high school!

[StrawberryBlondie]

Jan 9, 2024 11:43:36 GMT -5 AJL said:

Jan 9, 2024 11:39:41 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

I get it wawa . I have a 4th grader and she came home from school one day really upset that her class book club didn't get assigned to read "A Night Divided" like another group did.

I have read this book. As an adult. It's really good. For those that don't know it, it's about a girl and her brother who get trapped at home in East Berlin when the wall goes up and their father is on the other side because he happened to be away when it happened, and their effort to escape.

It's YA, but a part of me was like man, is this really appropriate for a 9 year old???

But what is it about the book that you feel isn't appropriate for a 9/10 year old? I haven't read it, so I don't know any of the details.

I was thinking about this question when I was driving home and I don't think appropriate was quite the right word to describe my actual thought process. And FWIW, I shared it to her Kindle like 2 minutes later.

I didn't think it was an inappropriate subject altogether, I just would've guessed it would've been more like a middle school level book, so it just sort of made me stop and be like "wait, that book's good for elementary age?"

[abs]

Jan 9, 2024 12:30:21 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Jan 9, 2024 11:43:36 GMT -5 AJL said:

But what is it about the book that you feel isn't appropriate for a 9/10 year old? I haven't read it, so I don't know any of the details.

I was thinking about this question when I was driving home and I don't think appropriate was quite the right word to describe my actual thought process. And FWIW, I shared it to her Kindle like 2 minutes later.

I didn't think it was an inappropriate subject altogether, I just would've guessed it would've been more like a middle school level book, so it just sort of made me stop and be like "wait, that book's good for elementary age?"

I think it’s that at 9/10 they aren’t little kids anymore but it comes as a shock. They get to be a certain age and all of the sudden it flies by and you realize that your kid is so smart and capable of understanding hard situations and you wonder how you got there. The developmental leap around that age is huge and yes books about war and racism and the holocaust are very appropriate but it makes you do a double take because like 2 seconds ago they were reading Piggie and Elephant. Your post to me in no way was supporting book bans but was more of a wait what we are here now post.

[abs]

Jan 9, 2024 12:25:55 GMT -5 Scout'sHonor said:

Jan 9, 2024 11:31:32 GMT -5 wawa said:

well...huh.  good point.  all the voracious readers I know as an adult read "inappropriate" shit as kids.  Bodice rippers as gateway to being a lifelong reader?  I want to see a study on it.

I was on the Christopher Pike -> Dean Koontz & Stephen King pathway 

I still have my Christopher Pike collection. Gosh I was obsessed!! Fear Street, too. And all the Point Horror books. I still love a good thriller.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Jan 9, 2024 12:43:37 GMT -5 abs said:

Jan 9, 2024 12:30:21 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

I was thinking about this question when I was driving home and I don't think appropriate was quite the right word to describe my actual thought process. And FWIW, I shared it to her Kindle like 2 minutes later.

I didn't think it was an inappropriate subject altogether, I just would've guessed it would've been more like a middle school level book, so it just sort of made me stop and be like "wait, that book's good for elementary age?"

I think it’s that at 9/10 they aren’t little kids anymore but it comes as a shock. They get to be a certain age and all of the sudden it flies by and you realize that your kid is so smart and capable of understanding hard situations and you wonder how you got there. The developmental leap around that age is huge and yes books about war and racism and the holocaust are very appropriate but it makes you do a double take because like 2 seconds ago they were reading Piggie and Elephant. Your post to me in no way was supporting book bans but was more of a wait what we are here now post.

Yes! Exactly! Thank you for articulating that so well.

[eddy]

I also read Susanne Somers memoir in like 4th grade that was very much not age appropriate. I remembered this when she recently died.

My mom saw all of this happened and just let me be. I was a shy kid and very passionate reader.

[wise_rita]

I'm so curious what Clan of the Cave Bear is! I have no idea, unless it's that Canadian book with a hilariously intimate cover of a woman and a bear. I assume said woman fucks said bear in this book (that I've seen in a meme).

[ssmjlm]

I mean Colleen Hoover is a crap writer and I hate that Tik Tok made her popular again, but I mean, reading is also reading. Should my daughter want to read one of her books, we would talk more about how the author romaticizes abusive relationships and that's not real life.

I remember reading an assigned book twice in MS/HS where the chauffeur kills a young girl he's driving around and stuffs her body into the incinerator. Looking back I wonder how that got put on a reading list not once, but twice.

[abs]

Jan 9, 2024 13:04:40 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

I mean Colleen Hoover is a crap writer and I hate that Tik Tok made her popular again, but I mean, reading is also reading. Should my daughter want to read one of her books, we would talk more about how the author romaticizes abusive relationships and that's not real life.

I remember reading an assigned book twice in MS/HS where the chauffeur kills a young girl he's driving around and stuffs her body into the incinerator. Looking back I wonder how that got put on a reading list not once, but twice.

Right. Lord of the Flies? Fine. Hunger Games? Banned. What on earth.

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 13:01:03 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm so curious what Clan of the Cave Bear is! I have no idea, unless it's that Canadian book with a hilariously intimate cover of a woman and a bear. I assume said woman fucks said bear in this book (that I've seen in a meme).

omg omg, no!  

It's historical fiction.  prehistorical fiction?  about Neanderthal vs. errrr...whatever evolution of humans came after them when they were coexisting.  A woman born to one group gets orphaned and ends up raised by the other and then is exiled by them and ends up finding the people who do actually look like her.  I remember it being really thought provoking, but also she has a ton of sex.  It's a whole series of books.  At no point does she fuck a bear though.

eta: I was OBSESSED with like, living off the land fiction (see also: my side of the mountain for the epitome of this for me) so all the detailed descriptions of how she makes baskets and flint knives and cooks and everything were so very much my jam.

[InBetweenDays]

Growing up I took part in the Junior Great Books. In 6th grade we read Ray Bradbury's The Veldt which is a science fiction short story about a family living in an automated house. The house does everything for them, and includes a virtual reality nursery that transports the kids into a very lifelike African savannah. When the parents try to "turn off" the house and suggest they move the kids rebel, lock the parents in the nursery, where it is implied that the parents are eaten by lions. Crazy story for a 6th grader? Maybe, but has stuck with me for 39 years and started me on my path of loving to read.

[vamoose]

I’m fine with my kids reading anything in the school library and do not support any bans.

That said, school libraries are interesting in that I don’t have visibility into what my kids are checking out and reading unless they choose to bring the book home and share it with me. I know what my kids get from the public library, because I have access to their accounts. I don’t think there would be a way with our current school library system for me to make individual choices on what my kid can access.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 9, 2024 13:15:22 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jan 9, 2024 13:01:03 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm so curious what Clan of the Cave Bear is! I have no idea, unless it's that Canadian book with a hilariously intimate cover of a woman and a bear. I assume said woman fucks said bear in this book (that I've seen in a meme).

omg omg, no!  

It's historical fiction.  prehistorical fiction?  about Neanderthal vs. errrr...whatever evolution of humans came after them when they were coexisting.  A woman born to one group gets orphaned and ends up raised by the other and then is exiled by them and ends up finding the people who do actually look like her.  I remember it being really thought provoking, but also she has a ton of sex.  It's a whole series of books.  At no point does she fuck a bear though.

eta: I was OBSESSED with like, living off the land fiction (see also: my side of the mountain for the epitome of this for me) so all the detailed descriptions of how she makes baskets and flint knives and cooks and everything were so very much my jam.

Trigger though for the first book in that it's rape, not sex.

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 13:27:14 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 9, 2024 13:15:22 GMT -5 wawa said:

omg omg, no!  

It's historical fiction.  prehistorical fiction?  about Neanderthal vs. errrr...whatever evolution of humans came after them when they were coexisting.  A woman born to one group gets orphaned and ends up raised by the other and then is exiled by them and ends up finding the people who do actually look like her.  I remember it being really thought provoking, but also she has a ton of sex.  It's a whole series of books.  At no point does she fuck a bear though.

eta: I was OBSESSED with like, living off the land fiction (see also: my side of the mountain for the epitome of this for me) so all the detailed descriptions of how she makes baskets and flint knives and cooks and everything were so very much my jam.

Trigger though for the first book in that it's rape, not sex.

ah - that's the whole first book?  That makes sense.  for series I never remember where one book ends and the other begins.  especially if they're really long books. 

related musing - Do school libraries do anything with trigger warnings?  Like if a kid is just perusing the shelves, is there anything to tell them if a book has some common triggers?

[wise_rita]

Jan 9, 2024 13:15:22 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jan 9, 2024 13:01:03 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm so curious what Clan of the Cave Bear is! I have no idea, unless it's that Canadian book with a hilariously intimate cover of a woman and a bear. I assume said woman fucks said bear in this book (that I've seen in a meme).

omg omg, no!  

It's historical fiction.  prehistorical fiction?  about Neanderthal vs. errrr...whatever evolution of humans came after them when they were coexisting.  A woman born to one group gets orphaned and ends up raised by the other and then is exiled by them and ends up finding the people who do actually look like her.  I remember it being really thought provoking, but also she has a ton of sex.  It's a whole series of books.  At no point does she fuck a bear though.

eta: I was OBSESSED with like, living off the land fiction (see also: my side of the mountain for the epitome of this for me) so all the detailed descriptions of how she makes baskets and flint knives and cooks and everything were so very much my jam.

LOL I was way off!  But what I said is correct (spoiler alert):


www.goodreads.com/book/show/187044.Bear

[abs]

Jan 9, 2024 13:21:39 GMT -5 vamoose said:

I’m fine with my kids reading anything in the school library and do not support any bans.

That said, school libraries are interesting in that I don’t have visibility into what my kids are checking out and reading unless they choose to bring the book home and share it with me. I know what my kids get from the public library, because I have access to their accounts. I don’t think there would be a way with our current school library system for me to make individual choices on what my kid can access.

Texas requires that schools send an email to the parents every time a book is checked out. So like Jane Doe checked out X book on 1/9/2024. It’s totally problematic and I hate it.

[laladypoet]

this thread is fucking weird.

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 14:22:03 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

this thread is fucking weird.

thanks for your input?

[pixy0stix]

I think sometimes it's good to talk through the why of things.

[mala]

I live in Carroll County, MD, and when I first read the list I felt the same way. I had almost the same discussion with my husband. I have read the Sarah J Mass books. I know exactly how explicit those scenes are. I do not want my 11 year old reading them. I would be a lot more open to her reading them at 14 or 16. Ultimately, I decided that it's on ME as a parent to tell her she's not ready to read those books, not the school. I also remember how much explicit stuff I read in books starting at her age. It was a lot, and though it wasn't porn or terribly explicit, it was a hell of a lot more sex than my mother would have wanted me reading, if she had known. I was also reading adult books by the time I hit middle school, they were just more interesting books. The selection of young adult books and authors has really exploded so I think I have a few years before she starts venturing into the adult books. Sarah J Mass's Throne of Glass series has much less sex (but not none though it's not nearly as explicit as ACOTAR) and is categorized as Young Adult. Anyways, my point being, I also felt conflicted, but realized even if I don't want my kid reading it now doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be able to read it. Also, you can draw a parallel between abortion bans/restrictions and book bans. Both are the result of one group wanting to dictate what another group can and can't do and make choices for them.

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 14:46:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I think sometimes it's good to talk through the why of things.

yeah, I mean, clearly I was wrong in my "maybe sometimes book ban ok?" hypothesis.  But also I was essentially outsourcing unpacking my thinking here for the sake of board conversation on an interesting topic because I hadn't to date fully examined the topic for myself and it's slow as fuck here these days.  I opened that article expecting to be like, "how dare they those assholes!" and was surprised by my own reaction being more ambiguous to half that list.  Thought it would be worth a conversation.  And it was!  Two pages worth!

Also I was legit curious because I didn't remember whether the "crappy" more adult but popular books we all read back in the day were in our school libraries and hadn't seen them as part of the conversation on banned books to date. 

I appreciate everybody's thoughts!

[Vespasia]

This thread resurrected a memory I had totally forgotten about. I had multiple ankle surgeries when I was 12 so I went to the library during gym (score!). One of the things they had me do was read books they were considering buying for the library and then make a recommendation.

I had so much power!


Anyway, I'm on team trust librarians. 

[wawa]

Jan 9, 2024 12:25:55 GMT -5 Scout'sHonor said:

Jan 9, 2024 11:31:32 GMT -5 wawa said:

well...huh.  good point.  all the voracious readers I know as an adult read "inappropriate" shit as kids.  Bodice rippers as gateway to being a lifelong reader?  I want to see a study on it.

I was on the Christopher Pike -> Dean Koontz & Stephen King pathway 

I skipped Koontz.  mine was Goosebumps-->Pike-->King.  Though I shortcut that a bit by picking up IT at a REALLY inappropriate age.  10?  I think?  Maybe 11 or 12.  Read it hiding in my brother's closet because I knew full well my mom would have snatched it out of my hands. 

[mrsslocombe]

Jan 9, 2024 11:16:15 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

I absolutely checked out VC Andrews from the school library.

The only thing my parents didn't limit was books. I couldn't watch rated PG-13/R movies or listen to certain types of music, but I could read any book I wanted.

Don't ban books from libraries.

I think we had the same mother. I couldn't watch FOX because it was too "dirty" with Married with Children and the Simpsons but...my mother merely thought me reading V.C. Andrews was funny. She did read at least Flowers in the Attic to see what I was ready and rolled her eyes a lot. But didn't have an issue with it. 


My mother was a high school librarian. She was strongly against book bans. 

Look I'm just a childless shrew but...I don't understand being up in arms about kids reading sex scenes. I think you should be aware of what your kids and reading and use it as a gateway to having certain conversations about consent, sex, etc. Talk about why Colleen Hoover's descriptions of consent and relationships are bad.


But like...most people go on to have sexual relationships. Many modern romances are focused on showing what appropriate consent looks like, they center female pleasure, they often show pleasure/sex as things other than PIV sex. Trust me, it's better than the sex tips we all learned from Cosmo. 

Y'alls kids are on the internet all day reading whatever they can, novels seem pretty low risk to me. 

[circa1978]

Team no bans under any circumstances.

I was a very early reader whose parents didn't restrict access to anything so I read pretty much everything from as young an age as I can remember. I think "age appropriate" is pretty much nonsense because what I didn't understand went over my head or got filed away for me to ask questions about at inconvenient times for my mother, but reading The Thorn Birds at the age of 9 didn't make me hot for priests or whatever.

And TV is the same way. I was raised on the Golden Girls and can recite most episodes verbatim. I would have seen most of them for the first time when I was 8 or 9. I am STILL understanding references that they make in new light. That show was FLITHY. LOL.

[noodleoo]

Jan 9, 2024 12:24:00 GMT -5 devonpow said:

I read Clan of the Cave Bear, Lord of the Flies (gave me more nightmares than any other book), a TON of Stephen King, “Wifey” (stolen from my mom lol), and who knows what else before I was 10. Both my kids (now 11 and 16) can read whatever they want - I just want them to read. For both of them I got them a lot of books on sex and puberty that explain everything from body hair to anal sex. I’m sure somewhere those books are banned.

Book bans are always terrible. Some books I agree with things like being in a restricted section a la Harry Potter where you need parental permission to access (my high school library - private school - did this. I recall one in high school was the book “final exit” which is about euthanasia/dying with dignity and includes instructions for completing suicide. I wrote a paper about it and needed my parents permission to check it out. That is 100% reasonable - still having access but understanding the type of book a parent might want to be involved in the decision making for).

Wait, what?  You think Harry Potter should need parental permission for kids to check out?  Why?

The second example I understand, but Harry Potter?

[AdaraMarie]

StrawberryBlondie When my older kid was in 4th grade A Night Divided was on her battle of the books list and at that time I was able to read most of them too. The overall subject matter I wasn't concerned about, but that book was so tense it gave me a lot of anxiety. But she thoght it was good and seemed unconcerned. It worked out well though because we ended up going to a park around that time that had sections of the Berlin Wall on display and we were able to talk about it.

Now...she is 13 and I can't come close to keeping up with what she reads. And things she can't watch on Netflix due to the PG13 rating lock on her profile...she figured out she can get from the library.
I know she is reading and watching things that are not totally appropriate but I can't keep up even if I wanted to so I try to talk to her enough to cover things I think are important.
The thing I worry about most is that she dives deep into book series and fandoms and she likes to write so she has been spending time on fanfic sites. What I have seen of her writing seems to be age appropriate but I know there is a lot of story porn on there and I can't stop her from clicking explicit things. She accesses it on her phone, her school computer, and at her dad's house soeven if I could nlock some of it I couldn't block it all.

I guess part of me thinks what is the point of book bans when the internet exists?

[hermione]

Jan 9, 2024 15:37:37 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Jan 9, 2024 12:24:00 GMT -5 devonpow said:

I read Clan of the Cave Bear, Lord of the Flies (gave me more nightmares than any other book), a TON of Stephen King, “Wifey” (stolen from my mom lol), and who knows what else before I was 10. Both my kids (now 11 and 16) can read whatever they want - I just want them to read. For both of them I got them a lot of books on sex and puberty that explain everything from body hair to anal sex. I’m sure somewhere those books are banned.

Book bans are always terrible. Some books I agree with things like being in a restricted section a la Harry Potter where you need parental permission to access (my high school library - private school - did this. I recall one in high school was the book “final exit” which is about euthanasia/dying with dignity and includes instructions for completing suicide. I wrote a paper about it and needed my parents permission to check it out. That is 100% reasonable - still having access but understanding the type of book a parent might want to be involved in the decision making for).

Wait, what?  You think Harry Potter should need parental permission for kids to check out?  Why?

The second example I understand, but Harry Potter?

I think she’s saying to have a restricted section like Harry Potter did not that Harry Potter should be restricted.

Still, no. Restricted sections aren’t the answer. It’s still censorship. It’s not up to librarians to tell your kids they need permission to read something. That’s a parent’s job. If your kid checks out something you’ve told them not to, that’s an issue between the parent and kid that has nothing to do with the library or librarian. Our jobs are literally to provide access not limit it.