In a first, young men are more religious than young women

[Velar Fricative]

Not surprising but does make me wonder about how this division within Gen Z and probably future generations will impact things like marriage/partnerships, careers and the economy, etc.

www.nytimes.com/2024/09/23/us/young-men-religion-gen-z.html?unlocked_article_code=1.M04.dCCX.CT86tET08YGv&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb&ngrp=mnp

[circa1978]

And then we have this trend, which has been happening for a while: www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/12/18/fewer-young-men-are-in-college-especially-at-4-year-schools/

Toss in ever restricting laws regulating women's bodies and what a time to be a sociologist.

[heygrey]

Having not read the article (I will come back later!), the cynical part of me thinks that these men are clinging to things that support their patriarchal views. Why would women stay in a system that continues to oppress them?

[wanderingback]

I didn’t click on the actual link to the survey, but is this broken down by race at all. The church in the article definitely seemed to be very white. I know there are some progressive churches, but it seems like the cons of many religious organizations greatly outweigh the pros that it’s hard for me to understand people who continue to support organized religion how we know it these days. So problematic.

This quote about sums it up…
"In surveys, women like Ms. Clark are common. They still score higher than men on measures of spirituality and attachment to God, suggesting that they are not necessarily abandoning their internal beliefs…"

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 23, 2024 8:28:44 GMT -5 heygrey said:

Having not read the article (I will come back later!), the cynical part of me thinks that these men are clinging to things that support their patriarchal views. Why would women stay in a system that continues to oppress them?

You basically nailed the article lol.

[sakoro]

Sept 23, 2024 10:43:14 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Sept 23, 2024 8:28:44 GMT -5 heygrey said:

Having not read the article (I will come back later!), the cynical part of me thinks that these men are clinging to things that support their patriarchal views. Why would women stay in a system that continues to oppress them?

You basically nailed the article lol.

The article doesn’t mention purity culture. I wonder if these young women are fed up with all the body and sexuality shaming. These “lessons” tend to be aimed more at teenaged girls than boys e.g. comparing women who have had sex to a licked cupcake or chewed gum.

Also now that women are in visible leadership across our society (professors, business leaders, politics even (fingers crossed) the presidency). To me, it feels bizarre and anachronistic to attend services at a Catholic or Evangelical church and only see men at the altar or in leadership roles.

[SusanBAnthony]

This seems completely intuitive to me.

Women say "nah" to marriage, being preganant a lot, and lots of other things that harm them as spon as they are able.

Why would religion be any different?

Meanwhile religion directly benefits men so of course thwy say yes to it.

[CrazyLucky]

I wish this was broken down a little more. Southern Baptists are known for their conservatism and making women second class. The real question is why would any woman want to be Southern Baptist? But there are progressive churches, and I wonder if the same trend holds for them.

This quote made me laugh: “I’m not sure what church life looks like with a decreasing presence of women,” he said, pointing out that they historically have been crucial forces in missionary work and volunteering.
This is similar to the people who are mad that women run more than half the dens in Cub scouts. They don't want their manly boys being sissified. But every church I've been part of, just like every Cub Scout and Boy Scout Pack/Troop cannot possibly run without women. CANNOT.

[JayhawkGirl]

We aren’t religious. I grew up going to church sort of. Can keep up with the rituals at a wedding/funeral. I pause in the our father to see if I’m somewhere that keeps going or not. We’ve chosen to raise our kids outside the church. My husband didn’t grow up in church and supported my wish to not raise our kids religious. MIL made some comments. It was an important conversation before we were even engaged.

The messages of community, empathy, and love are still forefront in our lives.

The messages of fear, power and money are not.

Be a good person regardless of whether you’re on a wooden pew at 10am Sunday.

[Nugget T. Brain, The OG]

I wonder how much of it is also a sense of community....women tend to be much better at building little communities and friendship groups themselves than men do. A church is a pre-built community of people.

[heygrey]

Sept 23, 2024 11:58:09 GMT -5 CrazyLucky said:

I wish this was broken down a little more. Southern Baptists are known for their conservatism and making women second class. The real question is why would any woman want to be Southern Baptist? But there are progressive churches, and I wonder if the same trend holds for them.

This is purely anecdotes from my life, but I actually suspect the women in the southern baptist and equally or more conservative are staying and the women in the more progressive churches are leaving. The extremely conservative churches are so insulated within their own groups and are taught to fear and shun ideas that aren't taught from the pulpit. They might hear progressive ideas somewhere, but will immediately reject them because they don't fit within the perimeters of what they are taught at church. They are also more likely to stop listening to those ideas and cut off the source they are coming from. More progressive churches that allow women in leadership, etc. still have a lot of patriarchal ideas, but the women their are far more likely to associate with "non-believers" and participate in mainstream social things where they are exposed to other viewpoints that may eventually wiggle their way in and start to shift her beliefs. There is also the idea that women in these very conservative denominations are more likely to be less educated because they are taught that their place is in the home raising children. They are completely dependent on the men in their lives and have never been allowed to think for themselves. 

I grew up in a fairly conservative denomination - women were allowed in leadership, but purity culture was real real when I was a teenager and there were still a lot of undertones about submitting to godly men. Despite the fact that the denomination ordained women as pastors, almost all of the women I knew in those roles were children or music pastors or some other secondary role. I cannot think of one church were a women held the lead or solo pastor position.

H and I moved to a much more progressive church after we were married. There were so many strong, intelligent women that I looked up to there. Almost all of them have pulled away from the church in the last ~15 years, including me. Even in a progressive church I couldn't reconcile all the things being taught with actual facts and science and just my gut feelings. I don't know where all of them stand spiritually, if they still consider themselves Christians, etc. But they definitely are not part of an organized religious group anymore. 

[livinitup]

Growing up, my much older uncles/aunts/2nd cousins were all in the last wave of joining religious communities (‘60s) so I got to see and know people in communities doing amazing work.

Now that the nuns are gone (mostly) it really burns me how the Catholic Church 1- took them for granted, and 2- suppressed their best talent. What we could have achieved, as a society, by unlocking and encouraging women who actually lived and worked in community. But no, can’t have that.

The article was fine but it missed the point entirely. Being all happy that some young “people” are attending church is NOT good enough when you only consider “people” to be men. If you don’t meet the needs of women, you aren’t meeting the needs of people.

[sent]

I'm not a Christian. My religion (as it was taught to me) considers menstruation to be dirty. You are not supposed to participate in [all the religious things] during that time.

I remember feeling second class the moment I learned that in middle school.

I haven't totally dumped it, but I'm taking a break for a few decades to see how things play out.

[underwaterrhymes]

I grew up in the Greek Orthodox church, which is super racist and conservative. I left when I was 11 or 12 and didn’t look back.

I don’t have a lot of contact with my Greek relatives, but they all live very close to one another, go to church together, and have weekly Sunday meals. To the best of my knowledge, none of the younger ones are leaving and the women are as religious as the men, but I think there is a cultural aspect there as well. They live in a heavily Greek area of Pennsylvania/Ohio and it saturates everything.

Predictably and regrettably, they’re Trumpers. I’m so proud of my papou because although he is very faithful within the Greek Orthodox Church and holds some beliefs I fundamentally disagree with, he HATES Trump and is not shy about telling his family what an asshole he thinks he is.

But the cultural part will inevitably get in the way of some people leaving the Greek church. When people have spent generations in one area and all of their family members believe the same things and it’s baked into every aspect of your life - from the food to the cultural practices to the religion, it’s more than just leaving the faith.

I give the people who are able to do it a hell of a lot of credit. It was fairly easy for me because we did not live near my Greek relatives and so for me it was legitimately just leaving the church and not everything I knew.

[katfco]

I've commented before how I grew up super conservative evangelical. Baptists were considered too liberal. We had the purity lecture, with a potato chip being passed around and "who would want it now?" As an aside, I almost raised my hand when the teacher asked that because, hey, potato chip.

Women had no visible role in the worship service--couldn't even silently pass communion trays except when they were in the pews.

I absolutely believe women are less inclined now to join churches like that. From my own observations at our very progressive church, most of the people joining are couples or women. I think we've had one unattached man join in the last year.

But I can absolutely see where conservative churches appeal to young men, and how they actively target recruiting them.

[maudefindlay]

I grew up in a house that went to church on Christmas and Easter. When I was in high school I started going on my own as the youth group was a great group of kids. We volunteered and did service activities and boys and girls were equal. I've never found that mix again as an adult. I consider myself Christian, but anti organized religion. Even at a progressive non denominational church when one of the junior pastors was divorcing, an email went out to the men at church asking for prayers as junior pastor's wife had cheated on him. Ick. They maybe sang Bon Jovi, bit they were really just as conservative as a more traditional church we tried where I heard an older lady tell a younger one that she wouldn't have marital issues if she'd fix her hair better and put on lipstick. So I definitely see why more men than women would be turned on by this.

[Patsy Baloney]

I read the subject line and thought to myself, “Please don’t marry them. Stay safe.”

[basilosaurus]

Sept 23, 2024 17:45:42 GMT -5 sent said:

I'm not a Christian. My religion (as it was taught to me) considers menstruation to be dirty. You are not supposed to participate in [all the religious things] during that time.

I remember feeling second class the moment I learned that in middle school.

I haven't totally dumped it, but I'm taking a break for a few decades to see how things play out.

You might be waiting a few more centuries because menstruating women being dirty is an ancient concept in many religions.

To me purity culture is very 90s. Josh whatever (forget his name) who was a leader at the time with his kissing dating goodbye book has fully rejected it now, said it led him to an unhappy young marriage, and he's since divorced.

I don't think that's what is pushing 2024 women away. Lack of leadership, sure. But also just rejecting the entire notion of doing all work for zero credit. Without women doing the invisible work these institutions will fail (who puts it the chairs, makes the coffee, prints out the order of service) and women are fed up with doing all that invisible work.

And that's before the whole rejection of you as a female body because you dare bleed, have attractive breasts, and since men are apparently toddlers, you're to blame for tempting them. Also, ew, bodily function must if us don't want, but it's too sustain life which they claim is our sole purpose.

I agree with a few who mentioned it's likely more progressive women are probably the ones leaving. What do they get from these communities? A lot of unpaid work and ancient beliefs that are anti science. Even in progressive churches where they accept basic things like evolution or vaccines and think Noah's ark is allegory (true story. We had to meet with an elder, make or female, to get confirmed, and they asked what we liked about the denomination parents chose for us, I said I liked that they didn't think Noah was literally true. Confirmed!) women still do the invisible work. They maybe get a day of recognition for teaching Sunday school or managing the nursery. I had one male teacher that entire time.

Credit where due, I heard from the pulpit in the 80s a proper health lecture on hiv with scientific terms. Boy did that pass people off! In middle school Sunday school class involved nothing purity related but true sex ex in case we didn't get it from school or home (I had both).

And even then I long ago rejected it while appreciating the community. I guess getting kicked out of Sunday school in 2nd grade for asking too many questions (go sit with your dad in church) was an obvious sign. Noah can be allegory but, really, Mary was a virgin!

Tl;Dr not respecting women and their work, not respecting women generally, none of it is aging up with our current scientific knowledge

[basilosaurus]

Also church has been on my mind.

I just passed the anniversary of my mom's and sisters death, 35 years apart, same age, very different causes, one day apart.

And thinking about the role the church played in all that. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the community and their support.

But "everything happens for a reason" and "god loved her too much" congratulations, you just created a child either angry at a selfish god not deserving of worship, or just an atheist.

I suspect I'm not alone in rejecting such platitudes and the institutions that created them

[sakoro]

Sept 23, 2024 17:34:36 GMT -5 heygrey said:

…. H and I moved to a much more progressive church after we were married. There were so many strong, intelligent women that I looked up to there. Almost all of them have pulled away from the church in the last ~15 years, including me. Even in a progressive church I couldn't reconcile all the things being taught with actual facts and science and just my gut feelings. I don't know where all of them stand spiritually, if they still consider themselves Christians, etc. But they definitely are not part of an organized religious group anymore. 

I was raised in mainline Christian denominations (Presbyterian and Episcopalian) and one thing I’ve had to come to terms with is how patriarchy is very deeply embedded in the structure of Christianity even in churches that ordain women and accept gay marriage etc. I blame Paul who wrote the second part of the New Testament and came up with many of the structures of how churches work. This realization came about while watching Shiny Happy People (Duggar documentary) and the Hillsong documentaries.

So many examples of women being expected to take on extra grunt work for free or low pay, men’s opinions being taken more seriously, women being expected to go with the flow and not question too much, pressure to settle for any available church-going man, get married and have kids…

[basilosaurus]

Definitely blame Paul!

[CrazyLucky]

My church is led by two women pastors. Our senior pastor did her thesis on the difficulties women clergy face and she did a two part presentation for anyone interested. It was really well done. Of the people who are "regular church goers," only ten percent regularly attend worship where a female pastor is the lead. Growing up, I knew no female pastors, and seeing this change has been really meaningful to me. The last church I was at was also led by a woman pastor.

On a side note, the sermon this week was masterful. The Gospel was about welcoming the stranger, and she tip toed right up to the line without crossing it. She knows the chaplain at a university in Springfield, OH and she talked about what is going on there, how some people knowingly and without care spread lies about strangers and how others are living the Gospel by supporting them through things like supporting Haitian owned businesses.

[chickadee77]

Sept 23, 2024 22:45:36 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Also church has been on my mind.

I just passed the anniversary of my mom's and sisters death, 35 years apart, same age, very different causes, one day apart.

And thinking about the role the church played in all that. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the community and their support.

But "everything happens for a reason" and "god loved her too much" congratulations, you just created a child either angry at a selfish god not deserving of worship, or just an atheist.

I suspect I'm not alone in rejecting such platitudes and the institutions that created them

I'm sorry for your losses.

My mom died when I was 19 and I was ignored by the church (in which we were very, very active) for three months. When I was finally contacted it was, "How are you? Would you be interested in starting a liturgical dance program?"

Looking back, I think that was the beginning of the end for me.

[pinkdutchtulips]

I have an interesting take on this being an ELCA PK whose dad graduated from Seminex in the mid to late '70s when women were first being ordained and accepting calls to congregations. I've seen women in leadership positions both on the local level (associate and senior pastors, church council presidents, church treasurers, Synod bishops) and national level (ELCA's current national bishop is a woman). I've spent the better part of my life surrounded by progressive churches.

That said, I have experienced around the opposite and it NEVER EVER sat right with me. My role within the church & society is to be diminished bc I'm a woman ?!? No no nope. Sadly, the churches with the most growth are non-denominational megachurches who tend to be socially conservative. I can see why men would flock to them if they want a 'traditional' wife. A congregation that has plenty of young women who are raised NOT to pursue education and careers bc its their 'godly duty' to become someone's wife and later mother to their children. It's a breeding ground for toxic, abusive relationships. God forbid things go south, it's the wife's fault ?!?

Now I sit on church council and we're brainstorming ways to grow our aging congregation and its a HARD sell. In part bc we're progressive and people looking for a church home are looking for something more conservative. The new members we have received in the last year have been single women and a handful of families.

[mrspez07]

Regarding the second link about less men in college, I wonder how many of those that would have traditionally gone are now turning to trades?
There has been a big push in all of our local k-12 districts to have a separate campus and program track for trades (which is great!).

Typically the trades that make comparable money to a BS or BA are more male dominated (auto, journeymen, computer) than those dominated by women (nursing, beauty, medical tech). So I wonder if men are foregoing college to make comparable money in a trade while women continue to see more opportunities in a degree.

[wawa]

Sept 23, 2024 17:45:42 GMT -5 sent said:

I'm not a Christian. My religion (as it was taught to me) considers menstruation to be dirty. You are not supposed to participate in [all the religious things] during that time.

I remember feeling second class the moment I learned that in middle school.

I haven't totally dumped it, but I'm taking a break for a few decades to see how things play out.

this is off topic, but this statement made me literally LOL.  It feels like something an immortal would say.  Taking the long view....

[simpsongal]

Sept 24, 2024 11:02:05 GMT -5 pinkdutchtulips said:

I have an interesting take on this being an ELCA PK whose dad graduated from Seminex in the mid to late '70s when women were first being ordained and accepting calls to congregations. I've seen women in leadership positions both on the local level (associate and senior pastors, church council presidents, church treasurers, Synod bishops) and national level (ELCA's current national bishop is a woman). I've spent the better part of my life surrounded by progressive churches.

That said, I have experienced around the opposite and it NEVER EVER sat right with me. My role within the church & society is to be diminished bc I'm a woman ?!? No no nope. Sadly, the churches with the most growth are non-denominational megachurches who tend to be socially conservative. I can see why men would flock to them if they want a 'traditional' wife. A congregation that has plenty of young women who are raised NOT to pursue education and careers bc it’s their 'godly duty' to become someone's wife and later mother to their children. It's a breeding ground for toxic, abusive relationships. God forbid things go south, it's the wife's fault ?!?

Now I sit on church council and we're brainstorming ways to grow our aging congregation and its a HARD sell. In part bc we're progressive and people looking for a church home are looking for something more conservative. The new members we have received in the last year have been single women and a handful of families.

+1. I think you replied when I posted about my progressive church struggling. We’re dwindling and potentially merging. I understand why people are voting with their feet after so many wrongs from the church. I’m proud that came out hard against our campus youth minister when he tried to sell me on submission being some kind of woman’s honor. Bull.
To anyone reading who gave up on church, there are good ones getting it right - there just won’t be many left in 5 yrs bc they can’t keep the doors open. When our church sells its building it’s likely going to a conservative mega church. 😟

[basilosaurus]

Sept 24, 2024 8:41:41 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Sept 23, 2024 22:45:36 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Also church has been on my mind.

I just passed the anniversary of my mom's and sisters death, 35 years apart, same age, very different causes, one day apart.

And thinking about the role the church played in all that. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the community and their support.

But "everything happens for a reason" and "god loved her too much" congratulations, you just created a child either angry at a selfish god not deserving of worship, or just an atheist.

I suspect I'm not alone in rejecting such platitudes and the institutions that created them

I'm sorry for your losses.

My mom died when I was 19 and I was ignored by the church (in which we were very, very active) for three months. When I was finally contacted it was, "How are you? Would you be interested in starting a liturgical dance program?"

Looking back, I think that was the beginning of the end for me.

I appreciate the sentiment, but, truly, 37 years later I'm OK.

It was the expressed sentiments that began my drive away. It was the heart behind it that kept me there

[basilosaurus]

Sept 24, 2024 23:36:45 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Sept 24, 2024 8:41:41 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

I'm sorry for your losses.

My mom died when I was 19 and I was ignored by the church (in which we were very, very active) for three months. When I was finally contacted it was, "How are you? Would you be interested in starting a liturgical dance program?"

Looking back, I think that was the beginning of the end for me.

I appreciate the sentiment, but, truly, 37 years later I'm OK.

It was the expressed sentiments that began my drive away. It was the heart behind it that kept me there

And I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge your loss. I was selfish in that moment.

What they did to you was awful.

I can blame 80s and I was a child for bad psychology. But your loss was newer and they had the knowledge to address it and should

[aurora]

I also saw this headline and my immediate thought was how much sense it makes given that so many churches cater to men.

I was raised Catholic and had good experiences including a liberal Jesuit priest who preached about things like community and helping others. It wasn't until after I moved away and tried to find a similar parish and couldn't that I began to understand the church more broadly and how problematic its rigid gender roles are (among other things of course). As a result I've been church-free for 20-ish years now.