@ Fluoride in drinking water poses enough risk

[UMaineTeach]

Fluoride in drinking water poses enough risk to merit new EPA action, judge says

www.wabi.tv/2024/09/25/fluoride-drinking-water-poses-enough-risk-merit-new-epa-action-judge-says/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR21R96oRUWLtlB928J64_HF0hQHqojYrnaY3WCbqvbBZ4g-PA_TpSwTtes_aem_uVOwE_veBdC0nu9dMRBqFA#m1iflomi4ylt2babz96

I would like to think it’s entirely safe to put fluoride in water, especially since the current limit is about half of the WHO standard.

Also, I am unconvinced that it causes intellectual disability, unless you want to say that 2/3 of the US population has ID.

[sent]

This is my profession so I’m sure I will see some discussion on this from the American Dental Association about this.

That said, it should be easy enough to study populations with fluoride added to their water versus populations without fluoride in the water. We don’t have fluoride in our water in most of New Jersey so pediatricians prescribe fluoride supplements starting at 6 months. There is definitely a population of parents that refuse to give their kids the fluoride supplements and there are kids like my DS who refused to take it after a few months. Ten miles away in New York, the water is fluoridated. If their premise is true, there should be noticeable differences in the kids in the two states.

[notreal]

No public water system is feeding anything near the WHO levels. The amounts that cause issues are only found in systems with natural sources in the source water. Water systems regularly test for fluoride and are required to notify their customers when the limit is exceeded.

But more of note, won't this be the first instance of a proposed change to regulations under the Chevron ruling?

[basilosaurus]

Sept 25, 2024 19:12:21 GMT -5 sent said:

This is my profession so I’m sure I will see some discussion on this from the American Dental Association about this.

That said, it should be easy enough to study populations with fluoride added to their water versus populations without fluoride in the water. We don’t have fluoride in our water in most of New Jersey so pediatricians prescribe fluoride supplements starting at 6 months. There is definitely a population of parents that refuse to give their kids the fluoride supplements and there are kids like my DS who refused to take it after a few months. Ten miles away in New York, the water is fluoridated. If their premise is true, there should be noticeable differences in the kids in the two states.

There are many anti-flouride cities as I'm sure you know. There's a ton of data.

I don't trust the judiciary, sadly. From Cannon to the scotus to whatever the texas asshole's name. I'm just not going to believe them about science.

[CrazyLucky]

Sept 25, 2024 19:12:21 GMT -5 sent said:

This is my profession so I’m sure I will see some discussion on this from the American Dental Association about this.

That said, it should be easy enough to study populations with fluoride added to their water versus populations without fluoride in the water. We don’t have fluoride in our water in most of New Jersey so pediatricians prescribe fluoride supplements starting at 6 months. There is definitely a population of parents that refuse to give their kids the fluoride supplements and there are kids like my DS who refused to take it after a few months. Ten miles away in New York, the water is fluoridated. If their premise is true, there should be noticeable differences in the kids in the two states.

Question about this because my kids hate the fluoride treatment and fight me on it.  The recommended level for fluoride in water for dental health is 0.7ppm.  My water is 0.22ppm, so not enough (we are in NJ).  Does the fluoride in toothpaste make any difference?  Or do I just need to do the fluoride treatment and put up with the complaining?

[sent]

Sept 26, 2024 7:41:49 GMT -5 CrazyLucky said:

Sept 25, 2024 19:12:21 GMT -5 sent said:

This is my profession so I’m sure I will see some discussion on this from the American Dental Association about this.

That said, it should be easy enough to study populations with fluoride added to their water versus populations without fluoride in the water. We don’t have fluoride in our water in most of New Jersey so pediatricians prescribe fluoride supplements starting at 6 months. There is definitely a population of parents that refuse to give their kids the fluoride supplements and there are kids like my DS who refused to take it after a few months. Ten miles away in New York, the water is fluoridated. If their premise is true, there should be noticeable differences in the kids in the two states.

Question about this because my kids hate the fluoride treatment and fight me on it.  The recommended level for fluoride in water for dental health is 0.7ppm.  My water is 0.22ppm, so not enough (we are in NJ).  Does the fluoride in toothpaste make any difference?  Or do I just need to do the fluoride treatment and put up with the complaining?

Are you talking about the fluoride treatments at the dentist's office or the fluoride supplements that the pediatricians prescribe to take at home?

[noodleoo]

DD1 also hates the fluoride treatment at the dentist. I don't get it! It tastes like bubblegum and they paint it on with a brush, so I don't think it hurts. It is the part she dreads about cleanings.

I've never heard of supplements. Our water isn't fluoridated. Am I supposed to be doing anything other than using fluoride toothpaste?

[fortnightlily]

Whenever the topic of fluoridation comes up I'm reminded of the film Dr. Strangelove.

[sent]

Sept 26, 2024 8:47:01 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

DD1 also hates the fluoride treatment at the dentist. I don't get it! It tastes like bubblegum and they paint it on with a brush, so I don't think it hurts. It is the part she dreads about cleanings.

I've never heard of supplements. Our water isn't fluoridated. Am I supposed to be doing anything other than using fluoride toothpaste?

Our pediatricians prescribed a multivitamin with fluoride in it. It started as a liquid at 6 months and then you could get it in a chewable tablet once the kid could handle that. I don't recall anymore at what age it was recommended to stop it. 

[StrawberryBlondie]

Sept 26, 2024 8:47:01 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

DD1 also hates the fluoride treatment at the dentist. I don't get it! It tastes like bubblegum and they paint it on with a brush, so I don't think it hurts. It is the part she dreads about cleanings.

I've never heard of supplements. Our water isn't fluoridated. Am I supposed to be doing anything other than using fluoride toothpaste?

I always hated fluoride treatments as a kid because whatever they put on my teeth would drop down my throat and was super uncomfortable and gag-y.

[basilosaurus]

Sept 26, 2024 8:56:02 GMT -5 fortnightlily said:

Whenever the topic of fluoridation comes up I'm reminded of the film Dr. Strangelove.

I'm reminded of Chem trails because those 2 conspiracies are linked in my mind.

[CrazyLucky]

Sept 26, 2024 8:10:47 GMT -5 sent said:

Sept 26, 2024 7:41:49 GMT -5 CrazyLucky said:

Question about this because my kids hate the fluoride treatment and fight me on it.  The recommended level for fluoride in water for dental health is 0.7ppm.  My water is 0.22ppm, so not enough (we are in NJ).  Does the fluoride in toothpaste make any difference?  Or do I just need to do the fluoride treatment and put up with the complaining?

Are you talking about the fluoride treatments at the dentist's office or the fluoride supplements that the pediatricians prescribe to take at home?

At the dentist.  I didn't know it could come in bubble gum flavor though.  When I get it, it takes disgusting and the taste lasts forever, so I understand why they complain.

[rubytue]

Sept 25, 2024 19:24:18 GMT -5 notreal said:

No public water system is feeding anything near the WHO levels. The amounts that cause issues are only found in systems with natural sources in the source water. Water systems regularly test for fluoride and are required to notify their customers when the limit is exceeded.

But more of note, won't this be the first instance of a proposed change to regulations under the Chevron ruling?

I’m not sure I understand the connection between this and the Chevron doctrine. The chevron doctrine was that for ambiguous statutes, the law could defer to a reasonable interpretation upon promulgation. Typically interpreting published research and applying it to a statute is what one uses to establish the reasonable interpretation for regulations.  But… this seems to be saying that the EPA should use this other, recently published, reasonable interpretation. 

Also, the chevron ruling was in 1994. The recent case overruled the Chevron case. 

[windyseas]

I don't know about intellectual disabilities, but I grew up in an area with too much fluoride in the water. Many of the kids that grew up in that area have stained teeth due to it, including myself.

[livinitup]

Why can’t we just have nice things?

Why can’t we know that fluoride in water helps keep teeth healthy, add it to our water system for the public good, study it so we don’t add too much or too little.

Celebrate science and public health and congratulate ourselves on the technology that makes our lives better.

And free dental care for everyone by highly trained and well compensated professionals. I want free preventative care and treatment for good oral health. (I know I’m really going off the rails on this last one)

[noodleoo]

Sept 26, 2024 14:10:03 GMT -5 livinitup said:

Why can’t we just have nice things?

Why can’t we know that fluoride in water helps keep teeth healthy, add it to our water system for the public good, study it so we don’t add too much or too little.

Celebrate science and public health and congratulate ourselves on the technology that makes our lives better.

And free dental care for everyone by highly trained and well compensated professionals. I want free preventative care and treatment for good oral health. (I know I’m really going off the rails on this last one)

I have never understood why dental and vision are not covered by medical insurance. Teeth and eyes are part of our body right?

[StrawberryBlondie]

Sept 26, 2024 15:44:47 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Sept 26, 2024 14:10:03 GMT -5 livinitup said:

Why can’t we just have nice things?

Why can’t we know that fluoride in water helps keep teeth healthy, add it to our water system for the public good, study it so we don’t add too much or too little.

Celebrate science and public health and congratulate ourselves on the technology that makes our lives better.

And free dental care for everyone by highly trained and well compensated professionals. I want free preventative care and treatment for good oral health. (I know I’m really going off the rails on this last one)

Inauce never understood why dental and vision are not covered by medical insurance. Teeth and eyes are part of our body right?

So.... my health insurance does cover some eye stuff? I have separate eye insurance but every time I go to the eye doctor, I also have to show my medical insurance card. I've never bothered to check what specifically it does cover though.

[UMaineTeach]

Sept 26, 2024 9:38:44 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Sept 26, 2024 8:47:01 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

DD1 also hates the fluoride treatment at the dentist. I don't get it! It tastes like bubblegum and they paint it on with a brush, so I don't think it hurts. It is the part she dreads about cleanings.

I've never heard of supplements. Our water isn't fluoridated. Am I supposed to be doing anything other than using fluoride toothpaste?

I always hated fluoride treatments as a kid because whatever they put on my teeth would drop down my throat and was super uncomfortable and gag-y.

I hated them because it was “pre-paintbrush”. We had a giant foam tray that they had to cut in half to get it to fit (so, it took 2x as long, doing top and bottom separately) that still didn’t really fit, filled with like half an ounce each of flavored goo.

But, I’ve never had a cavity, even with questionable brushing habits. So, something worked.

[noodleoo]

Sept 26, 2024 15:48:44 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Sept 26, 2024 15:44:47 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Inauce never understood why dental and vision are not covered by medical insurance. Teeth and eyes are part of our body right?

So.... my health insurance does cover some eye stuff? I have separate eye insurance but every time I go to the eye doctor, I also have to show my medical insurance card. I've never bothered to check what specifically it does cover though.

True, I see an ophthalmologist now for dry eye and that’s covered by medical. But glasses and contacts and the exam for both is not. Correcting bad vision seems like a necessity not a luxury so it is weird to me that it isn’t covered.

I guess that also applies to hearing aids. I think it only got added to Medicare coverage very recently which is pretty crappy. ETA: actually I’m not sure Medicare covers them now either! I thought I heard that was coming but maybe I’m wrong?

[dcn]

I remember growing up having to do a fluoride rinse at school. All through elementary school! I grew up in a rural area of New York.

[UMaineTeach]

Sept 26, 2024 15:52:56 GMT -5 dcn said:

I remember growing up having to do a fluoride rinse at school. All through elementary school! I grew up in a rural area of New York.

Oh yeah, that stuff. It was gross tasting and gross to have 20 kids swishing and spitting in back into the tiny pouch to throw it away. It was like monthly. It was a rural area with probably half the kids on well water.

Now some just comes twice a year to school to paint it on.

[msmerymac]

Sept 26, 2024 15:48:44 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Sept 26, 2024 15:44:47 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Inauce never understood why dental and vision are not covered by medical insurance. Teeth and eyes are part of our body right?

So.... my health insurance does cover some eye stuff? I have separate eye insurance but every time I go to the eye doctor, I also have to show my medical insurance card. I've never bothered to check what specifically it does cover though.

I was once told it’s in case something medical comes up. Glaucoma or something I guess. But not routine vision correction.

[pixy0stix]

Sept 26, 2024 15:50:12 GMT -5 UMaineTeach said:

Sept 26, 2024 9:38:44 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

I always hated fluoride treatments as a kid because whatever they put on my teeth would drop down my throat and was super uncomfortable and gag-y.

I hated them because it was “pre-paintbrush”. We had a giant foam tray that they had to cut in half to get it to fit (so, it took 2x as long, doing top and bottom separately) that still didn’t really fit, filled with like half an ounce each of flavored goo.

But, I’ve never had a cavity, even with questionable brushing habits. So, something worked.

Just thinking about the foam tray and goo makes me gag to this day.

[polarbearfans]

Sept 26, 2024 11:21:05 GMT -5 CrazyLucky said:

Sept 26, 2024 8:10:47 GMT -5 sent said:

Are you talking about the fluoride treatments at the dentist's office or the fluoride supplements that the pediatricians prescribe to take at home?

At the dentist.  I didn't know it could come in bubble gum flavor though.  When I get it, it takes disgusting and the taste lasts forever, so I understand why they complain.

They make all kinds of different flavors. My daughter’s dentist even has chocolate flavor. She usually opts for watermelon.

[wawa]

Sept 26, 2024 15:48:44 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Sept 26, 2024 15:44:47 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Inauce never understood why dental and vision are not covered by medical insurance. Teeth and eyes are part of our body right?

So.... my health insurance does cover some eye stuff? I have separate eye insurance but every time I go to the eye doctor, I also have to show my medical insurance card. I've never bothered to check what specifically it does cover though.

Mine covers my glaucoma screenings (risk factors yay!) but not anything else

[sent]

Sept 26, 2024 11:21:05 GMT -5 CrazyLucky said:

Sept 26, 2024 8:10:47 GMT -5 sent said:

Are you talking about the fluoride treatments at the dentist's office or the fluoride supplements that the pediatricians prescribe to take at home?

At the dentist.  I didn't know it could come in bubble gum flavor though.  When I get it, it takes disgusting and the taste lasts forever, so I understand why they complain.

Yeah there are definitely different flavors. My kids also complain. I tell them to toughen up and that not everything in life and especially when it comes to medicine can be fun. 

[sent]

Sept 26, 2024 13:13:02 GMT -5 windyseas said:

I don't know about intellectual disabilities, but I grew up in an area with too much fluoride in the water. Many of the kids that grew up in that area have stained teeth due to it, including myself.

This is how they discovered the benefits of fluoridated water in the first place.

[Saudade]

Sept 26, 2024 15:51:35 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Sept 26, 2024 15:48:44 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

So.... my health insurance does cover some eye stuff? I have separate eye insurance but every time I go to the eye doctor, I also have to show my medical insurance card. I've never bothered to check what specifically it does cover though.

True, I see an ophthalmologist now for dry eye and that’s covered by medical. But glasses and contacts and the exam for both is not. Correcting bad vision seems like a necessity not a luxury so it is weird to me that it isn’t covered.

I guess that also applies to hearing aids. I think it only got added to Medicare coverage very recently which is pretty crappy. ETA: actually I’m not sure Medicare covers them now either! I thought I heard that was coming but maybe I’m wrong?

Medical insurance will cover ophthalmology because that is a MD. Most don't cover eye exams as that is optometry. Though I have seen more medical insurance covering like one eye exam a year.

If I ever end up in jail it will be from doing something to insurance companies. I hate them so much. 

One of my old ICU doctors was from a different country where they routinely practice some dental care. 🤯

[loira]

I feel like I'm the only one who misses the old fluoride treatment with the tray and the goo. I loved having control of the little suction thingy! The painted on treatment is less fun and also I hate how it feels on my teeth afterwards.

[sent]

Sept 26, 2024 21:35:22 GMT -5 Saudade said:

If I ever end up in jail it will be from doing something to insurance companies. I hate them so much. 

I will be your cellmate. I can't believe the shenanigans I put up with on both sides, the patients and the insurance companies, to earn a living for my family AND pay a whole team of people to be productive members of their community.