@ Elite College Students Who Can’t Read Books

[neverfstop]

GIFT www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/11/the-elite-college-students-who-cant-read-books/679945/?gift=GFJ6rZk7EjP1WLiLmK2-qI6BGhB1uNIhfyPHV1eyuW4&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

TL:DR
-attention spans
-smart phones
-testing requirements
-kids are too busy

Is this a place to have a conversation about audiobooks? It wasn't really a thing when I was in HS/college, but could kids listen to these book to get at least 75% of the content of them vs. sittting+reading?

[jinkies]

Audiobooks are books. I would argue that depending on your learning style, you may be processing MORE of the content by listening, not less. They are particularly valuable for people with dyslexia.

In spite of having been a huge reading snob when I was younger, I'm really not feeling particularly hand-wringy about the shift in the article. At least not as they are describing it. I grew up kind of isolated and without cable. Reading was my primary hobby and I read EVERYTHING, including very serious, heavy books. I took AP English. I still have never read the Illiad, or Jane Eyre, or Wuthering Heights. I don't think that's a failing. Even back in the stone ages when I was in high school, teachers were focusing on more modern selections if they were going to make us read the whole thing because they held our attention better (I specifically remember reading the Joy Luck Club in honors english)

I get what they are saying about the shift to reading excerpts vs full texts, and have seen that too. But I haven't seen it fully replace full texts-- teachers may assign fewer full text reading, but their example of 6 full books in a semester plus multiple long excerpts instead of 11 full books isn't damning, in my opinion.

[mrspez07]

Interesting read. I'd say even as a middle-aged self-professed reader, that I don't read as much or as long as I used to. I have also increased my audiobook use so I can sew while I listen.


@@@
I also see this trend in my house. The super readers my kids were in elementary have turned to the idea that reading for enjoyment is uncool. This also coincides with increased phone use.
The HS student is reading and annotating the Great Gatsby in his honors class, although not a long text, they are spending time on it. He also mentioned they read a chapter, discuss, then watch the movie. I think using multi-media is one of the ways teachers are going to be able to keep this generation of students engaged.

[Jalapeñomel]

I disagree about audiobooks...Both my DH and I listened to audiobooks on tape when we were kids in the 80s! However, we didn't listen to them much in school.

My HS students don't read, don't read for pleasure and don't listen to audiobooks or podcasts.

[neverfstop]

Oct 15, 2024 12:51:17 GMT -5 jinkies said:

Audiobooks are books. I would argue that depending on your learning style, you may be processing MORE of the content by listening, not less. They are particularly valuable for people with dyslexia.

I totally agree. I was just asking if it's considered OK for students to listen instead of reading. I remember all the Cliff Notes when I was a kid.... Would offering to provide audiobooks to kids help them "read" more books? Do most kids still have to go out and buy books for HS? IS there still a summer recommended reading list? For college kids or those who don't have big chunks of time, would an audio book be as effective as reading to allow them to multitask?

[abs]

This really isn’t surprising. This is the consequence of all the high stakes testing. Kids are being tested on reading passages. Therefore that’s mostly what they read in school. I won’t even blame it on social media or the internet. It’s that they literally are not taught to enjoy reading for reading’s sake after 2nd grade. I’m sure just endless scrolling doesn’t help but I don’t think it’s the root cause here.

Somehow DD does love reading. But she’s definitely in the minority among her friends. She also only really likes a certain book. Think Hunger Games/Legend/Fourth Wing.

Frankly I don’t think kids need to be subjected to endless Charles Dickens and Shakespeare like we were but there’s got to be a happy medium. Teach the short stories. Teach the classics but maybe not all the time. Assign a more contemporary novel, too. But mostly abolish the freaking endless testing.

[pixy0stix]

Hell, we can't even get people here to read a short article before people comment with a fully formed (and sometimes way off topic) opinion. (No one in this thread... yet.)

There's just so many themes packed into the article - teaching to the test; lack of critical thinking when you're just asked to synthesize the material; overscheduling activities; not allowing people to be "bored; the erosion of the education system/grade inflation; technology and the shortening of attention spans; pursuing degrees for the paycheck; STEM becoming God and how we're losing the humanities (and how that ultimately erodes STEM itself); etc.

One thing that wasn't brought up was how we're losing the ability to empathize with others if we're not allowed to read about our shared human experience.

To answer the question in the OP - audiobooks are books. As humans we have a vast cultural touchpoint of oral history and traditions, audiobooks fit into that.

[Jalapeñomel]

"Middle and high schools have stopped asking them to."

I'm not an English teacher, but they have told me that they read most of the books in class, the abridged version, because otherwise they won't read at all.

[abs]

Oh!!

I think this also has to do with the political climate. Our schools aren’t banning books exactly but they are removing them before parents can complain. This backfiring because now they aren’t compliant for AP classes.

[TR]

Oct 15, 2024 13:17:18 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Oct 15, 2024 12:51:17 GMT -5 jinkies said:

Audiobooks are books. I would argue that depending on your learning style, you may be processing MORE of the content by listening, not less. They are particularly valuable for people with dyslexia.

I totally agree. I was just asking if it's considered OK for students to listen instead of reading. I remember all the Cliff Notes when I was a kid.... Would offering to provide audiobooks to kids help them "read" more books? Do most kids still have to go out and buy books for HS? IS there still a summer recommended reading list? For college kids or those who don't have big chunks of time, would an audio book be as effective as reading to allow them to multitask?

Considered OK by who? Listening to an audiobook is reading so I'm confused about the question. Now, if you've got an audiobook playing while you're playing video games or not paying attention, then no, but that's the same as skimming over words in a physical without paying attention.

[Jalapeñomel]

Oct 15, 2024 13:17:18 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Oct 15, 2024 12:51:17 GMT -5 jinkies said:

Audiobooks are books. I would argue that depending on your learning style, you may be processing MORE of the content by listening, not less. They are particularly valuable for people with dyslexia.

I totally agree. I was just asking if it's considered OK for students to listen instead of reading. I remember all the Cliff Notes when I was a kid.... Would offering to provide audiobooks to kids help them "read" more books? Do most kids still have to go out and buy books for HS? IS there still a summer recommended reading list? For college kids or those who don't have big chunks of time, would an audio book be as effective as reading to allow them to multitask?

No to buying books, yes to a summer reading list! 

[tacokick]

I think a combo of teaching to the test and not assigning novels, getting rid of school libraries and the drop off of programs like DEAR and Book-It have contributed. We were bribed to read as kids! There as a lot of book based TV and movies as well and I don’t see that quite as much.

[jinkies]

Oct 15, 2024 13:17:18 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Oct 15, 2024 12:51:17 GMT -5 jinkies said:

Audiobooks are books. I would argue that depending on your learning style, you may be processing MORE of the content by listening, not less. They are particularly valuable for people with dyslexia.

I totally agree. I was just asking if it's considered OK for students to listen instead of reading. I remember all the Cliff Notes when I was a kid.... Would offering to provide audiobooks to kids help them "read" more books? Do most kids still have to go out and buy books for HS? IS there still a summer recommended reading list? For college kids or those who don't have big chunks of time, would an audio book be as effective as reading to allow them to multitask?

I can't comment on colleges, but my kid's middle school english teacher had a huge "Audiobooks are books" poster in her room and explicitly gave the kids the option to listen or read. He is now in high school, and he does read full texts for class. It would not occur to me to ask his teacher's permission to listen instead of reading-- I consider them interchangeable.

My other kid is dyslexic and her retention is significantly better with audiobooks-- so in her specific case, it's not "just as effective as reading", it's "more effective than reading". All of her teachers have been more than happy to OK audiobooks, even (with headphones) for in-class silent reading time.

This is a sample size of one school district, but every english teacher that either of my kids have had would be thrilled with the kids using whatever format works best, as long as they are processing the material.

[cville]

Oct 15, 2024 13:31:04 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

"Middle and high schools have stopped asking them to."

I'm not an English teacher, but they have told me that they read most of the books in class, the abridged version, because otherwise they won't read at all.

@@
My 9th grader is in advanced/honors ELA and has been asked to read ONE book this year, so far as I'm aware. And it was by Stephen King (not one of the horror ones; something history or something, which, why?).

I don't want to be too shaking my cane, but we read A Tale of Two Cities at the start of our 9th grade lit class. It's a big book. I'm sure some people read the cliff notes. But it set the tone and expectations. Plus it was an easy read.

[wanderingback]

Oct 15, 2024 12:51:17 GMT -5 jinkies said:

Audiobooks are books. I would argue that depending on your learning style, you may be processing MORE of the content by listening, not less. They are particularly valuable for people with dyslexia.

In spite of having been a huge reading snob when I was younger, I'm really not feeling particularly hand-wringy about the shift in the article. At least not as they are describing it. I grew up kind of isolated and without cable. Reading was my primary hobby and I read EVERYTHING, including very serious, heavy books. I took AP English. I still have never read the Illiad, or Jane Eyre, or Wuthering Heights. I don't think that's a failing. Even back in the stone ages when I was in high school, teachers were focusing on more modern selections if they were going to make us read the whole thing because they held our attention better (I specifically remember reading the Joy Luck Club in honors english)

I get what they are saying about the shift to reading excerpts vs full texts, and have seen that too. But I haven't seen it fully replace full texts-- teachers may assign fewer full text reading, but their example of 6 full books in a semester plus multiple long excerpts instead of 11 full books isn't damning, in my opinion.

Re: audiobooks, did you read the article?
It says that schools aren’t even assigning full books to read anymore. I don’t think anyone would have problems with kids doing book reports after audiobooks but kids (per this article) aren’t getting assigned reading full books anymore so it’s a moot point.

[ssmjlm]

I saw this already last year in 5th grade when I asked the teacher what books they would be reading since I like to buddy read them with my kid:

But the student told Dames that, at her public high school, she had never been required to read an entire book. She had been assigned excerpts, poetry, and news articles, but not a single book cover to cover.

“My jaw dropped,” Dames told me. The anecdote helped explain the change he was seeing in his students: It’s not that they don’t want to do the reading. It’s that they don’t know how. Middle and high schools have stopped asking them to.

She told me she likely won't read any books in 6th either. They have some big literary textbook with a bunch of passages.

There's something to be said for reading a whole book. I know in 4th they read several books and there were a mix of older and current reads.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 15, 2024 14:28:00 GMT -5 cville said:

Oct 15, 2024 13:31:04 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

@@
My 9th grader is in advanced/honors ELA and has been asked to read ONE book this year, so far as I'm aware. And it was by Stephen King (not one of the horror ones; something history or something, which, why?).

I'm trying to figure out what this is, his autobiography? "On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft"?

[pixy0stix]

Oct 15, 2024 14:39:44 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

There's something to be said for reading a whole book. 

I will beat this drum and write novel length passages on why it's important to read the whole book.

Take the example of My Antonia by Willa Cather that was mentioned in the article. We had to read it in high school because, "she's a famous NE author" and it was a mandatory inclusion in NE reading standards. If you just took the excerpts and the "teach to the test" of why the book is important (first book to really showcase the life of immigrant farm girls, and a revolutionary writing style that wrote with a depth of emotion vs traditional plot), then yeah you'd get the surface "why is this book important". 

*pause to insert that I had really fucking excellent English high school teachers*

What you wouldn't be able to capture is just how much it resonated with a bunch of rural high school kids who started the book thinking we were reading the mandatory version Little House on the Prairie, and ended with us drawing parallels to our own lives and how much really hadn't changed from the time it was written to now for the rural communities. How there is a quiet beauty in shared hardships with the people who worked the land before us. And that's just profound.

[jinkies]

Oct 15, 2024 14:32:10 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Oct 15, 2024 12:51:17 GMT -5 jinkies said:

Audiobooks are books. I would argue that depending on your learning style, you may be processing MORE of the content by listening, not less. They are particularly valuable for people with dyslexia.

In spite of having been a huge reading snob when I was younger, I'm really not feeling particularly hand-wringy about the shift in the article. At least not as they are describing it. I grew up kind of isolated and without cable. Reading was my primary hobby and I read EVERYTHING, including very serious, heavy books. I took AP English. I still have never read the Illiad, or Jane Eyre, or Wuthering Heights. I don't think that's a failing. Even back in the stone ages when I was in high school, teachers were focusing on more modern selections if they were going to make us read the whole thing because they held our attention better (I specifically remember reading the Joy Luck Club in honors english)

I get what they are saying about the shift to reading excerpts vs full texts, and have seen that too. But I haven't seen it fully replace full texts-- teachers may assign fewer full text reading, but their example of 6 full books in a semester plus multiple long excerpts instead of 11 full books isn't damning, in my opinion.

Re: audiobooks, did you read the article?
It says that schools aren’t even assigning full books to read anymore. I don’t think anyone would have problems with kids doing book reports after audiobooks but kids (per this article) aren’t getting assigned reading full books anymore so it’s a moot point.

I did, I was responding to the question in the OP about audio books.

[imimahoney]

Oct 15, 2024 13:31:04 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

"Middle and high schools have stopped asking them to."

I'm not an English teacher, but they have told me that they read most of the books in class, the abridged version, because otherwise they won't read at all.

This.

My school absolutely asks them to read. They just know that it will not get done out side of class.

[emilyj]

I'm a college professor (not English or Lit). A couple weeks ago, one of my students was complaining about how much he hated his lit class. I asked what was wrong with it, and he honest to God scoffed and said "We have to read books."

I was dumbfounded. I said "It's a lit class. Why would you think you wouldn't have to read books?" His answer? "It's dumb."

I don't teach in a field that lends itself to assigning books, but any reading I assign? The majority of them won't do it at all. This semester has been brutal. Two things that stood out from the article:

"Jack Chen, a Chinese-literature professor at the University of Virginia, finds his students “shutting down” when confronted with ideas they don’t understand."

100% yes.

And "Faced with this predicament, many college professors feel they have no choice but to assign less reading and lower their expectations."

Also true.

I cannot get on board with lowering expectations. I just can't. I'm willing to entertain alternative formats for presenting the information, but for fuck's sake. One of my classes I generally give them two chapters a week to read. Less than 40 pages. How much lower can I go with my standards?

[smock]

As I was reading this, I kept thinking, well of course students aren't reading full-length books; we've restructured every step of education to emphasize "hard skills" over critical thinking.

From teaching to the test in K-12 to the overwhelming number of business majors, we're telling students what's important about education: landing a job and making money. But running away from the humanities has resulted in a population that can't identify internet hoaxes and believes the Dems control the weather. It also impacts people's ability to empathize and connect with anyone different from themselves.

Is the solution sending Tolstoy novels to every high school? I don't think so––after all, we're in a decades-long process of reassessing the "canon" and "classics." Maybe we need to take a note from Renaissance humanists who championed the liberal arts as the best way to create informed, well-rounded citizens. Then again, that would probably just increase calls to ban books and defund the Department of Education.

[wanderingback]

Oct 15, 2024 15:30:21 GMT -5 jinkies said:

Oct 15, 2024 14:32:10 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Re: audiobooks, did you read the article?
It says that schools aren’t even assigning full books to read anymore. I don’t think anyone would have problems with kids doing book reports after audiobooks but kids (per this article) aren’t getting assigned reading full books anymore so it’s a moot point.

I did, I was responding to the question in the OP about audio books.

Ohhh! Got it

[picksthemusic]

DD is in 7th and they are reading The Outsiders. They are reading along with an audiobook in class. DH has an issue with it - I do not, as I see audiobooks as books and listening is just as good (if not better than) reading to yourself.

Now, DD has read and re-read The Outsiders about 10 times since this summer when she discovered it due to Ralph Macchio (her current celebrity crush haha) being in the movie. But that's a whole other thing, haha. But she knows that book backwards and forwards so I'm not worried about it.

[penguingrrl]

I’m both surprised and sad to read this. Our schools still focus on books at all levels. I always look forward to seeing the emELA teachers give us the list of novels they’ll read at back to school night and they still always do (kids are currently a senior, a sophomore and 6th grade). Summer reading is still an expectation as well, usually 4 books with writing prompts for each. It’s a huge loss if students aren’t leaning this way.

[fancynewbeesly]

DD1 is in 8th grade in honors English. Her school does block scheduling so she 90 minutes of ELA a day. Her teacher on the first day of the month assigns a short novel/story. Last one was The Pearl by Steinbeck. She gives them 30 minutes a day to read it. Once they are done reading it (they have 15 school days to complete it), then they use that 30 minute block to read a book of their choice. It motivates DD1 to want to get through the book so she can have 30 minutes of reading the Percy Jackson series for fun. They do have to write a quick summary of the fun book they are reading.

Her friends are a mix on it they enjoy reading or not. Both my girls LOVE audiobooks. We are obsessed with the yoto player in our house. They listen to audio books every night to fall asleep. My six year old is listening to Wizard of Oz. My 13 year old is listening to House of Hades.

[abs]

I counted and between map testing, STAAR simulations, and the actual STAAR test our schools are spending 20 days dedicated to all day testing. 20!! That is an entire month.

So yeah. When all funding is tied to this test you can see where the problems are.

[TR]

Oct 15, 2024 14:42:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Oct 15, 2024 14:28:00 GMT -5 cville said:

@@
My 9th grader is in advanced/honors ELA and has been asked to read ONE book this year, so far as I'm aware. And it was by Stephen King (not one of the horror ones; something history or something, which, why?).

I'm trying to figure out what this is, his autobiography? "On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft"?

cville - 11/22/63? Just going off of the “history” clue.

[cville]

Oct 15, 2024 17:09:44 GMT -5 TR said:

Oct 15, 2024 14:42:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm trying to figure out what this is, his autobiography? "On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft"?

cville - 11/22/63? Just going off of the “history” clue.

🤷🏻‍♀️

[erbear]

I haven't finished the article yet so I assume I'll have some thoughts (I'm a humanities teacher) but I will say...my 10th grader is on her third book of the year in honors English as we speak (they read Gatsby, Like Water for Chocolate, and she's halfway through the Kite Runner. So this is certainly not universally true -- even I, a reader, think this pace is insane.

Ok, I finished and I am appalled by this, honestly, yet not at all surprised. I don't think kids read enough and somehow we assume that they'll figure it out by college. I notice this all the time with my students -- they do not have the ability to sustain attention on anything that isn't "fun". We have worked so hard to make everything a dog and pony show in schools to keep kids interested that they really don't get much practice sitting and just...working on something. I build kids up to 3-4 page reading assignments (I teach 8th grade history) bc in the beginning of the year, if I give them 2 pages, they read half of one then start skimming. It's a skill and I don't think enough schools are teaching it.