Soul-Searching, Recriminations Within Democratic Party

[neverfstop]

www.wsj.com/politics/elections/kamala-harris-democrats-2024-election-loss-3b3b9c30


I don't even know where we go from here, but I do think the messaging needs to be all focused on the middle class & economic issues. Apparently people don't care about fascism if they can't afford college for their kids.  i don't think we expressed well enough what it would be like to go back to a world without the ACA or how the Trump tax cuts would ONLY be for the rich.....

[wise_rita]

Gosh I hadn't even considered the ACA. But it's pretty popular now, yes? Chopping it now would be an unpopular move, wouldn't it?

[Beeps (WOT?*)]

It's moderately so but rebrand it back to Obamacare and they won't care, as long as the Rs give them "something" that will give some sort of appearance of healthcare to replace it.

[aurora]

I think there's going to be a lot of think pieces about how the D's messed up messaging/policy yet again.

But most of them are going to leave out the massive impact that sexism has had in both 2016 and 2024 (and of course also racism in this one).

[neverfstop]

I almost skipped it, but I did just listen to the New York Times daily podcast, and they have some biting commentary. Demographics do not equal destiny. Republicans are now the party of change. A lot of people can be pro-choice and still vote for Trump because he’s slimy and hard to nail down on a position. They are also laying this pretty heavily at the feet of Biden and his administration and not advocating strongly enough for the working i& middle class the last four years, and/or being agents of change and promoting a younger generation…

[ESF]

This is a country that prefers fascism to multicultural democracy. Maybe some years we can pick off enough people to win. Maybe slightly different messaging or a different candidate or what have you moves the needle a bit and we can stop the bleeding for a little while.

At the end of the day, there are huge structural problems- chief among them, the electoral college, a profit seeking media industry, Silicon Valley oligarchs with unlimited money and access to data, and a crumbling education system - that don’t get overcome by holding a few more rallies in Fulton County and a promise to put a Latino on SCOTUS. These structural problems are just entrenching the racism and sexism and making them worse as the years go by.

So i were to pick anything, it's that we cant defeat this if we continue to campaign like we are dealing with people operating in good faith. No more idealizing reaching across the aisle. We are in an existential fight here.

It was all nice that Liz Cheney and some other Republicans came out against this maniac and that is not nothing. But it's not enough.

The GOP has been building to this fascist state for long time. It's like nobody remembers that the origins of the US Attorney firing scandal that dominated most of the last two years of GWB's presidency - they were fired because they weren't using their offices to help the GOP engage in vote suppression.

Where in their conversion did any of these Republicans acknowledge their contributions to the political system that birthed Trump?

We need a real reckoning here. The democrats need to start treating the GOP like the serious threat that it is. No more platforms for GOP defectors unless they reject the entire package and not just one man. The more we glorify bipartisanship, the more we normalize a party that will always "other" us.

[neverfstop]

I've missed you ESF ....glad to see you back.

[cville]

Given that she had like 100 days to get a campaign going after an unpopular old man who was being blamed for global inflation and political turmoil dropped out far too late--and underlying misogyny and racism, I don't think there's anything *Kamala* or her campaign could have done.

But I agree with ESF. The problem is that 10, 15 years ago* when it was CLEAR that the GOP was being dominated by soulless jackasses bent on exploiting division and seeding the earth with endless misinformation, we didn't attack. We responded like maybe their supporters were confused and trying to gently educate them and also protect the most vulnerable among us with shelter and care. What we should have done and need to do is aggressively fight the lies and call out the BS. Treat them like the creeps and liars that they are. The most vulnerable among us don't need a soothing pat on the back. They need an army of warriors.



*maybe 25. I haven't forgotten the moral majority. Endless fuck you to them.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Nov 6, 2024 10:04:13 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

I've missed you ESF ....glad to see you back.

Co-signed

[magma]

I think the Democratic Party as we know it is done. Toast. If we can lose twice to that idiotic buffoon then what we are doing isn’t working.

I say total rebrand. Call it the Freedom Party or something similarly bland and widely palatable. Get our own big buffoon at the top as a figurehead with the brains pulling the strings behind it.

DH says I’m going nuts but dammit isn’t the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a diff outcome?

[ellipses84]

I feel like Kamala ran a flawless campaign in the time she had. Some of the economy stuff that needed to happen should have been done under Biden earlier with strong messaging that any successes were Biden / Harris. I guess if she should have done anything different, maybe go on Joe Rogan, and play more strategic ads during sports to combat the 🍊 ads (they did but Harris ads were pretty generic and really should have gone after him the last couple weeks with MSG). I feel like those people hear what they want to hear though, and will find fault in anything she does and nothing he does. After MSG, early voters were calling and asking if they could change their votes 😭 So many women flew or drove home, especially to PA and GA to vote because they didn’t get their absentee ballots. I know some international people didn’t get their ballots or got empty envelopes. There was voter suppression at play.

Someone pointed out that with the Dept of Education eliminated, there will be no more FAFSA, so all those dumb frat bros who voted for 🍊 and every college student will be screwed. On the flip side, does this mean there’s nobody to track student loan payments?

[ESF]

Nov 6, 2024 10:04:13 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

I've missed you ESF ....glad to see you back.

I have been busy at work and trying to cut back on social media. But I needed process this shitty news somewhere and I’m glad this community is still thriving.

[5kcandlesinthewind]

Nov 6, 2024 9:48:04 GMT -5 ESF said:

....
The GOP has been building to this fascist state for long time. It's like nobody remembers that the origins of the US Attorney firing scandal that dominated most of the last two years of GWB's presidency - they were fired because they weren't using their offices to help the GOP engage in vote suppression.

Where in their conversion did any of these Republicans acknowledge their contributions to the political system that birthed Trump?

We need a real reckoning here. The democrats need to start treating the GOP like the serious threat that it is. No more platforms for GOP defectors unless they reject the entire package and not just one man. The more we glorify bipartisanship, the more we normalize a party that will always "other" us.

This is exactly why the Lincoln Project and the Cheneys of the world can fuck right off, IMO. You had no issues with the racism and the looming authoritarianism in your party until that asshole started saying the quiet part out loud. Making your cutesy videos to grift money from liberals so you can make more cutesy videos to grift more money; those people should be shunned for eternity.

I fear the Ds are going to move even further to the center-right, and Harris was already pretty moderate. I don't know for sure that it would have helped, but backburnering the guy who called out just how terrible the Rs were in favor of trotting out Liz Cheney or letting Bill Clinton do... whatever the hell that was in MI sure didn't.  There's more than enough blame to go around, though, and none of this should let the racism and the sexism that this country was founded on off the hook.

[jeaniebueller]

Here is what i posted in the other thread and am moving here:

harris/the dems screwed up the second that biden declared that he would run again. i blame biden and the people surrounding him for not realizing what an unmitigated disaster he would be as a candidate. we would have had a chance if there was a primary, i saw many dems sour on harris because she was not picked in a somewhat democratic way, the same people who were upset at how the 2016 and 20202 dem primaries shook out.

this will not be a popular thing to say but dems need to have a reckoning and drop the smug elitism (not just from the party, from dem voters, this kind of shit has been all over my socials for months), get rid of the extremely on line staffers who made stupid choices like focusing on 'weird' instead of policy, quit hauling out every celebrity under the sun as if that is going to make a difference and change any minds and realize that most demographics are not a monolith. also there were so many abortion ads, i couldn't turn on my TV without having one on as i'm watching the news with my family. Overkill. Dems do need to start playing the podcast game if they want to compete, as much as i hate it.

[StrawberryBlondie]

jeaniebueller I agree.

One thing I think Dems need to get much, MUCH better at is communicating liberal/progressive policy specifically to conservatives in their terms. It's a very specific skill and a lot of Dems are terrible at it.

[mrsslocombe]

I think the Democratic party establishment will look at the data and see the swing right...and therefore think next time they need to be even MORE moderate, more 'conservative.'

In reality, I think a huge chunk of the electorate was looking to "punish" people. For some, that's punishing the democrats for "being in charge" during major inflation. For others, it's "punishing" undocumented people who they view as draining money from this country, even though the facts are quite the opposite. There's some people who want to punish women and minorities for what they see as getting too much power. And then there's a segment that want to punish the administration for the genocide of Palestinians, and for not being progressive enough.

I don't know how to explain the results in NC though, where they did vote statewide for Democrats. In some cases, the opponents were batshit insane, but they signed up for Trump, so insanity wasn't a total no-go. So there's obviously some formula out there to swing people left. But fuck if I know what it is.

[Bad Dingo]

I disagree, garbage people don't care about policy. If that makes me elitist, so be it. I AM better than them.

[wise_rita]

First and foremost they need to never look to a female candidate at the top of the ticket ever again.

Sad, but true. Maybe, MAYBE in 50+ years, but even that seems too soon.

Much to figure out from there.

[neverfstop]

Just saw the n social media “the reason the educated vote blue….”

We HAVE to stop the name calling and shaming. The insinuation that anybody that voted red is stupid or evil isn’t opening up a dialogue to have conversations and build bridges. We also have to stop with purity tests and silencing anybody that has differing opinions.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 6, 2024 17:39:35 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Just saw the n social media “the reason the educated vote blue….”

We HAVE to stop the name calling and shaming. The insinuation that anybody that voted red is stupid or evil isn’t opening up a dialogue to have conversations and build bridges. We also have to stop with purity tests and silencing anybody that has differing opinions.

@@@@@@@@

I don't understand how I'm supposed to coexist with people who have "differing opinions" on my child's existence. How can I interact with those people when they are actively seeking to hurt my child? How does one have a dialogue when one of the participants is a fascist? I am struggling with this.

I am genuinely asking: what other reason would a person have for voting for Donald Trump, other than being stupid, poorly educated, or mean?

[bugandbibs]

I'll say it- none of it matters. All of the excuses and reasons why Harris and Biden didn't do the exact right thing to win someone's vote is all just a cover for deeply ingrained racism and misogyny that is baked into this country. Trump voters weren't looking for a reason to vote for Harris- they were looking for an excuse on why they didn't vote for her as cover. We can't fix that with policy in a country as large and diverse as the US.

[atexan]

Nov 6, 2024 17:47:30 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 6, 2024 17:39:35 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Just saw the n social media “the reason the educated vote blue….”

We HAVE to stop the name calling and shaming. The insinuation that anybody that voted red is stupid or evil isn’t opening up a dialogue to have conversations and build bridges. We also have to stop with purity tests and silencing anybody that has differing opinions.

@@@@@@@@

I don't understand how I'm supposed to coexist with people who have "differing opinions" on my child's existence. How can I interact with those people when they are actively seeking to hurt my child? How does one have a dialogue when one of the participants is a fascist? I am struggling with this.

I am genuinely asking: what other reason would a person have for voting for Donald Trump, other than being stupid, poorly educated, or mean?

Selfishness and propaganda (not substantially different, perhaps, but maybe easier to address)

[stuffandthings]

Nov 6, 2024 18:03:52 GMT -5 atexan said:

Nov 6, 2024 17:47:30 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

@@@@@@@@

I don't understand how I'm supposed to coexist with people who have "differing opinions" on my child's existence. How can I interact with those people when they are actively seeking to hurt my child? How does one have a dialogue when one of the participants is a fascist? I am struggling with this.

I am genuinely asking: what other reason would a person have for voting for Donald Trump, other than being stupid, poorly educated, or mean?

Selfishness and propaganda (not substantially different, perhaps, but maybe easier to address)

To me, those both fit in the buckets I described--selfishness is meanness, and accepting propaganda at face value in a supposedly free society is not doing your due diligence to educate yourself.

[lilac05]

Nov 6, 2024 17:39:35 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Just saw the n social media “the reason the educated vote blue….”

We HAVE to stop the name calling and shaming. The insinuation that anybody that voted red is stupid or evil isn’t opening up a dialogue to have conversations and build bridges. We also have to stop with purity tests and silencing anybody that has differing opinions.

I agree with this except that we have to be mindful of who we are asking to carry this load. I carry it often. But I’m not someone they’re directly hurting. And I grew up with those beliefs and with that mindset…so I feel like it’s on me to maintain those relationships to some degree, build trust, and take every opportunity to share my current views. I would never ask someone directly impacted by their hate to do that work.

[livinitup]

Apparently, voters really like to be lied to and be told the guy they are voting for has a magic plan to magically make their lives better.

We could try that.

[stuffandthings]

I'm just so tired of being told that I need to be nicer.

I am Midwest Nice. I'm a devout Christian. I literally have a Master's degree in Bible and have spent the better part of my life patiently explaining to people that, no, actually the Bible doesn't say this and that, and it certainly doesn't support modern American evangelicalism. I kill with kindness. I hug it out. I patiently and painstakingly explain basic economics to people who openly call for me to be shot. I do persuasion canvassing. I listen and learn.

And it doesn't seem to work. Logic doesn't work, and kindness doesn't work, because people will nod politely and then do whatever the fuck they want, and if those people are fundamentally stupid, poorly educated, or mean, "what they want" will be to harm people.

I just can't see a way out of it. How do you reach people when there's apparently nothing to reach?

[magma]

Nov 6, 2024 18:11:14 GMT -5 livinitup said:

Apparently, voters really like to be lied to and be told the guy they are voting for has a magic plan to magically make their lives better.

We could try that.

This. I’m here. See my “let’s get our own buffoon” post up above. It’s all smoke and mirrors. We should play the game too.

[neverfstop]

Nov 6, 2024 17:47:30 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 6, 2024 17:39:35 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Just saw the n social media “the reason the educated vote blue….”

We HAVE to stop the name calling and shaming. The insinuation that anybody that voted red is stupid or evil isn’t opening up a dialogue to have conversations and build bridges. We also have to stop with purity tests and silencing anybody that has differing opinions.

@@@@@@@@

I don't understand how I'm supposed to coexist with people who have "differing opinions" on my child's existence. How can I interact with those people when they are actively seeking to hurt my child? How does one have a dialogue when one of the participants is a fascist? I am struggling with this.

I am genuinely asking: what other reason would a person have for voting for Donald Trump, other than being stupid, poorly educated, or mean?

I’m so sorry that this is so personal for you. I don’t have the answers and I am gutted today too. I am in Texas, so most of my family, most of my friends, most of my coworkers all voted for Trump likely. I know that they are not stupid. Maybe they fell for the lies or propaganda or outrage algorithms or Economic insecurity may be driving their fear. Until we can figure this out and stop belittling them and find someway to connect with the majority of America we will not win an election again. I have to find a way to live with these people, and it’s really hard at this moment. I don’t see myself stepping foot in the church again for a really long time. I’m too heartbroken and angry. The Christian Nationalists have certainly done a number on our country….

[pixy0stix]

Y'all remember how many times people here and elsewhere complained about Biden during the 2020 election and onward because he wasn't picked by the white Democrats? Talk about the enemy within... We've got to own up that there is significant racism in our own party.

[ellipses84]

Nov 6, 2024 18:11:14 GMT -5 livinitup said:

Apparently, voters really like to be lied to and be told the guy they are voting for has a magic plan to magically make their lives better.

We could try that.

I do think we have to dumb down the messages. Saying, he’s a fascist wasn’t effective. Him calling PR trash was a little effective but it was too late because we were already a week into early voting a lot of places. I know I keep going on about the NFL commercials but one of the last ones I saw air was like something you’d see in a movie about a fake candidate. Like making 🍊 seem like this Golden boy candidate who was going to solve all America’s problems and save the day, and there was appeal in it (unlike most of his ads, IMO). Like if you didn’t know him, that would sound pretty good. I bet half his voters never listened to a recent speech, interview, debate of either candidate.