Soul-Searching, Recriminations Within Democratic Party

[neverfstop]

Time travel back to APril 2023 & see our initial reactions to biden announcing. plus a shit ton of COVID + death talk.
pandce.proboards.com/thread/637447/biden-officially-announced-campaign

Since we lost the election, I'll go ahead and blame Biden. I think he's accomplished quite a bit in his career & did a great job as POTUS. However, he'll be remembered for this one critical error that handed all 3 branches of government to crazy town GOP. I think he deserved credit for eventually stepping aside, but it wasn't enough to recover from his initial selfish 7 deluded decision to run again.

[RoxMonster]

I follow AOC on Instagram. She did some stories tonight and shared that her congressional district went for Trump and at the same time, she won her seat again. She put out a question box asking people who voted for both Trump and her why they did so.

The top two common themes I saw in the responses she shared from people so far are:

“Both you and Trump are for the working class”
“Both of you aren’t part of the establishment and are outsiders”

[ellipses84]

Nov 11, 2024 0:08:37 GMT -5 RoxMonster said:

I follow AOC on Instagram. She did some stories tonight and shared that her congressional district went for Trump and at the same time, she won her seat again. She put out a question box asking people who voted for both Trump and her why they did so.

The top two common themes I saw in the responses she shared from people so far are:

“Both you and Trump are for the working class”
“Both of you aren’t part of the establishment and are outsiders”

Ugh, I hate this. Meanwhile people complained they didn’t know enough about Kamala’s policies. Do they even know their own goals or realize their reps probably won’t accomplish their goals if they vote split ticket? I can understand more if someone can’t bear to vote for someone so they are holding their nose and voting for someone else they don’t like, then voting for the opposition down ballot as a bit of a check and balance system. Unfortunately I know Dems that really never liked Biden as the 2020 pick (probably going back to the Obama years or earlier?), and don’t love Harris due to her ties to the Biden admin, but they hate Trump and wouldn’t vote for him!

This goes along with what I was saying about Iowa liking Populist candidates. They had the most amount of the same people vote for Obama because he was “For the People” and then vote for 🍊 because he was going to “Drain the swamp” even through they were on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

[sonrisa]

‘Working class Trump’

I’ll add that to the doublespeak list.

[starlily]

Nov 10, 2024 7:58:34 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Checking latest counts - California has still only counted 66% of their votes but it will look like Trump got about the same number of votes nationally in 2024 as he did in 2020. But Harris may end up around 10 million short of Biden in 2020. That is absolutely mind-blowing to me.

But I am not ready to make that claim that 10 million people stayed home exclusively for those reasons. The question I have then is, if we mailed them ballots instead, would they have voted and who would they have voted for?

Every registered voter in CA automatically receives a mail in ballot per a 2021 law. If a voter opts to use it, the ballot must be postmarked or returned in person by the date of the election.

[sonrisa]

Does an increase in mail in ballots affect split household voting?

The ‘your vote is private’ idea only applies to public polling stations. There is nothing private about a ballot you fill in at the kitchen table with someone else watching over your shoulder.
Some conservative men think they should decide how their wives vote as head of household. Keeping a private vote in such a family would be hard.

[neverfstop]

Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn). tweeted yesterday that the left is "out of touch with the crisis of meaning/purpose fueling MAGA. We refuse to pick big fights. Our tent is too small."

"We don't listen enough; we tell people what's good for them," he added.
Rep. Ritchie Torres, a Democrat from the Bronx, tweeted the morning after the election: "Donald Trump has no greater friend than the far left, which has managed to alienate historic numbers of Latinos, Blacks, Asians, and Jews from the Democratic Party with absurdities like 'Defund the Police.'"

"The working class is not buying the ivory-towered nonsense that the far left is selling," Torres added.
--------
The reality of liberal-run cities, gutted by crime and citizens fleeing — dotted with large tent communities for homeless people, ravaged by drugs — went viral. Portland, Oregon, and San Francisco were seen as case studies of unmitigated permissiveness.

(axios email)

[themoneytree]

Nov 11, 2024 6:29:36 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn). tweeted yesterday that the left is "out of touch with the crisis of meaning/purpose fueling MAGA. We refuse to pick big fights. Our tent is too small."

"We don't listen enough; we tell people what's good for them," he added.
Rep. Ritchie Torres, a Democrat from the Bronx, tweeted the morning after the election: "Donald Trump has no greater friend than the far left, which has managed to alienate historic numbers of Latinos, Blacks, Asians, and Jews from the Democratic Party with absurdities like 'Defund the Police.'"

"The working class is not buying the ivory-towered nonsense that the far left is selling," Torres added.
--------
The reality of liberal-run cities, gutted by crime and citizens fleeing — dotted with large tent communities for homeless people, ravaged by drugs — went viral. Portland, Oregon, and San Francisco were seen as case studies of unmitigated permissiveness.

(axios email)

Makes a lot of sense.

[AJL]

Nov 10, 2024 10:39:35 GMT -5 taratru said:

Nov 10, 2024 9:09:56 GMT -5 jinkies said:

I want to expand on this, because this is what I was trying to get at with my comments, particularly the elitism problem.

I watched a video of someone showing a graph of voting by education. It showed that people with college educations overwhelmingly voted Harris, without college education voted Trump. She concluded that education leads you to agree with the Democratic agenda. This is the smugness I was referring to in my original comments. Our college educations should have taught us that correlation is not causation. Consider that maybe you aren't voting blue bc you are smarter and better educated.

Because I look at that chart and ask why non-college educated voters do not feel welcome in the Democratic party. In our effort to create a big tent, we have not made the tent big enough for people without a college education. Why is that?

This is why R voters latched on to phrases like being called deplorable or garbage people. It's because that's how working class people believe they are perceived by those with college educations, and they are tired of it.

I grew up with the common wisdom that unions vote blue. I know a lot of union members-- they are my family, my neighbors, and my husband's colleagues. Other than my husband, none of them voted for Harris. Why is that? Why are we falling flat with these large groups of workers?

I think, to an extent, it's that we are messaging *at* them, but not actually listening to them.

Like it or not, the Rs made this group feel listened to.

I've heard a lot of people say something like "I would never vote against someone's rights just to have cheaper eggs." There is an immense amount of privilege to that statement. It means that your household income is high enough that you can absorb the higher prices, and that you don't associate with anyone who is not in that position.

It's Maslow's hierarchy of needs-- they don't hate you, they just need to eat first. It comes across as tone deaf to people who are having to make difficult choices due to the dramatic price increases over the past few years.

Toward the end of the campaign Trump had these really simple signs that said things like "Trump- low crime, Harris-- high crime" and "Trump-- low prices, Harris-- high prices"

Say what you will about the signs, but the fact is that they addressed the issues that many people felt were important in a really simple way that was easy to digest while driving past. It made them feel heard and understood.

Meanwhile Dems were messaging joy and "I grew up middle class" without offering anything as concrete and easy to understand as those signs. It felt out of touch.

I think that is the difference that swing Trump voters saw.

I refuse to be responsible for someone else's insecurities around my education. Education doesn't lead to being a Democrat. What is *can* do is make a person able to see facts instead of fear, and I think that's why the GOP has fostered this "elite" issue.

I completely understand why the messaging hits that way, and why the GOP has been able to build an entire machine on it. In the day-to-day of the "get into your own communities," I think education is the only solution. People have to become literate in ways that benefit them, and that doesn't have to be college. At the same time, I think we all know that there is critical thinking, literacy learning, and interactions with people from other cultures/places that happens in college that you just can't get (unless you are individually motivated to do so, which the working class may not have time for) through on the job or trades training.  

Ew. Come on. This is bullshit. It's also unfair and reductionist. 

[wildrice]

Nov 11, 2024 6:29:36 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn). tweeted yesterday that the left is "out of touch with the crisis of meaning/purpose fueling MAGA. We refuse to pick big fights. Our tent is too small."

"We don't listen enough; we tell people what's good for them," he added.
Rep. Ritchie Torres, a Democrat from the Bronx, tweeted the morning after the election: "Donald Trump has no greater friend than the far left, which has managed to alienate historic numbers of Latinos, Blacks, Asians, and Jews from the Democratic Party with absurdities like 'Defund the Police.'"

"The working class is not buying the ivory-towered nonsense that the far left is selling," Torres added.
--------
The reality of liberal-run cities, gutted by crime and citizens fleeing — dotted with large tent communities for homeless people, ravaged by drugs — went viral. Portland, Oregon, and San Francisco were seen as case studies of unmitigated permissiveness.

(axios email)

Homelessness is a result of poverty, not lawlessness. If people don't like seeing people living on the streets, they need to vote for policies that will help get them into housing, not jails.

[wawa]

I feel like we're (the people on this board, but also the democratic party) are going to keep going in circles (in this thread and IRL) unless we make a really clear distinction between two things -

there's how we feel about and act toward SPECIFIC trump voters in our lives - we know these people, we know their circumstances, and we have some inkling of their motivations.
and then there's how we think the democratic party ought to shift their messaging to reach entire swaths of people who by necessity have to be thought about in generalities and are currently either voting for trump, or just not showing up. It's easy to conflate them, but we have to stop it.

Like...my brother who lives in a swing state and has a blue collar job is the most far left person in my life. Harris was too moderate for him, but he was all in because that's what we had. He can't even talk about the election right now because he's too angry that his state went trump. He has left jobs in part because he couldn't get along with his MAGA coworkers effectively because THEY WERE ACTAULLY TERRIBLE PEOPLE. Like, on a personal basis. They sucked. They said terrible racist misogynist bigoted ass things on a regular basis and were also just generally assholes. But that doesn't mean that the Dems couldn't have reached enough of that demographic as a whole if they'd gone HARD on anti-price gouging, fuck big corps and pro-union messaging. We don't need to swing all or even most of them. I haven't done the math, but like....10% of them just need to be convinced that the Dems are fighting for them.

We DO need to figure out how to reach some portion of the demographic that my brother goes to work with every day (white, blue-collar, swing state), but that DOESNT mean he has to forgive or like those actual people or that they aren't flaming prolapsed assholes on a personal basis.

The two things I'm very cynical about though in that approach -
1. will the dems actually go all in on a "the corps are taking all the money, that's why shit is so expensive even though the 'economy' is good" message? Because they have big money donors too and....yeah. I dont think they will.
And 2. I need them to do it without soft pedaling or walking back any of their social stances - but is "men playing women's sports" still going to fan enough flames that it won't matter? I don't know. I like to think that it won't, but I don't feel confident. Just like I don't think it's worth putting up a female candidate again because there's too much internalized (and externalized) misogyny to overcome when the margins are already so close. I want the Dems to try to reach the non-assholes of the demographics they struggle with - the people who truly are just so worried about paying their bills, but there are also just a lot of assholes out there. And the misinformation is BRUTAL.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 11, 2024 6:29:36 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn). tweeted yesterday that the left is "out of touch with the crisis of meaning/purpose fueling MAGA. We refuse to pick big fights. Our tent is too small."

"We don't listen enough; we tell people what's good for them," he added.
Rep. Ritchie Torres, a Democrat from the Bronx, tweeted the morning after the election: "Donald Trump has no greater friend than the far left, which has managed to alienate historic numbers of Latinos, Blacks, Asians, and Jews from the Democratic Party with absurdities like 'Defund the Police.'"

"The working class is not buying the ivory-towered nonsense that the far left is selling," Torres added.
--------
The reality of liberal-run cities, gutted by crime and citizens fleeing — dotted with large tent communities for homeless people, ravaged by drugs — went viral. Portland, Oregon, and San Francisco were seen as case studies of unmitigated permissiveness.

(axios email)

But this isn't "reality"! Portland grew by 1% every year for as far back as I can find. San Francisco grew 0.18% year over year.  Portland's crime rate dropped in 2023. San Francisco's crime rate is at an all-time low. It's pretty easy to see that people aren't "fleeing" because of how expensive property still is in those cities. Property is more expensive in liberal cities because MORE PEOPLE want to live there.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 11, 2024 9:29:50 GMT -5 wawa said:

I feel like we're (the people on this board, but also the democratic party) are going to keep going in circles (in this thread and IRL) unless we make a really clear distinction between two things -

there's how we feel about and act toward SPECIFIC trump voters in our lives - we know these people, we know their circumstances, and we have some inkling of their motivations.
and then there's how we think the democratic party ought to shift their messaging to reach entire swaths of people who by necessity have to be thought about in generalities and are currently either voting for trump, or just not showing up. It's easy to conflate them, but we have to stop it.

Like...my brother who lives in a swing state and has a blue collar job is the most far left person in my life. Harris was too moderate for him, but he was all in because that's what we had. He can't even talk about the election right now because he's too angry that his state went trump. He has left jobs in part because he couldn't get along with his MAGA coworkers effectively because THEY WERE ACTAULLY TERRIBLE PEOPLE. Like, on a personal basis. They sucked. They said terrible racist misogynist bigoted ass things on a regular basis and were also just generally assholes. But that doesn't mean that the Dems couldn't have reached enough of that demographic as a whole if they'd gone HARD on anti-price gouging, fuck big corps and pro-union messaging. We don't need to swing all or even most of them. I haven't done the math, but like....10% of them just need to be convinced that the Dems are fighting for them.

We DO need to figure out how to reach some portion of the demographic that my brother goes to work with every day (white, blue-collar, swing state), but that DOESNT mean he has to forgive or like those actual people or that they aren't flaming prolapsed assholes on a personal basis.

The two things I'm very cynical about though in that approach -
1. will the dems actually go all in on a "the corps are taking all the money, that's why shit is so expensive even though the 'economy' is good" message? Because they have big money donors too and....yeah. I dont think they will.
And 2. I need them to do it without soft pedaling or walking back any of their social stances - but is "men playing women's sports" still going to fan enough flames that it won't matter? I don't know. I like to think that it won't, but I don't feel confident. Just like I don't think it's worth putting up a female candidate again because there's too much internalized (and externalized) misogyny to overcome when the margins are already so close. I want the Dems to try to reach the non-assholes of the demographics they struggle with - the people who truly are just so worried about paying their bills, but there are also just a lot of assholes out there. And the misinformation is BRUTAL.

Yesssssss. I think we need to learn to distinguish between the actual MAGAs and the low-information voters who saw a sign that said "Trump = low taxes" one time and made up their minds from that. I KNOW none of us can understand that level of disinterest, but we have to try. There are people voting against their own interests because the GOP has a better messaging machine. We need to talk to those people, and not conflate them with actual die-hard Trump people.

[hermione]

Nov 11, 2024 9:37:21 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 11, 2024 9:29:50 GMT -5 wawa said:

I feel like we're (the people on this board, but also the democratic party) are going to keep going in circles (in this thread and IRL) unless we make a really clear distinction between two things -

there's how we feel about and act toward SPECIFIC trump voters in our lives - we know these people, we know their circumstances, and we have some inkling of their motivations.
and then there's how we think the democratic party ought to shift their messaging to reach entire swaths of people who by necessity have to be thought about in generalities and are currently either voting for trump, or just not showing up. It's easy to conflate them, but we have to stop it.

Like...my brother who lives in a swing state and has a blue collar job is the most far left person in my life. Harris was too moderate for him, but he was all in because that's what we had. He can't even talk about the election right now because he's too angry that his state went trump. He has left jobs in part because he couldn't get along with his MAGA coworkers effectively because THEY WERE ACTAULLY TERRIBLE PEOPLE. Like, on a personal basis. They sucked. They said terrible racist misogynist bigoted ass things on a regular basis and were also just generally assholes. But that doesn't mean that the Dems couldn't have reached enough of that demographic as a whole if they'd gone HARD on anti-price gouging, fuck big corps and pro-union messaging. We don't need to swing all or even most of them. I haven't done the math, but like....10% of them just need to be convinced that the Dems are fighting for them.

We DO need to figure out how to reach some portion of the demographic that my brother goes to work with every day (white, blue-collar, swing state), but that DOESNT mean he has to forgive or like those actual people or that they aren't flaming prolapsed assholes on a personal basis.

The two things I'm very cynical about though in that approach -
1. will the dems actually go all in on a "the corps are taking all the money, that's why shit is so expensive even though the 'economy' is good" message? Because they have big money donors too and....yeah. I dont think they will.
And 2. I need them to do it without soft pedaling or walking back any of their social stances - but is "men playing women's sports" still going to fan enough flames that it won't matter? I don't know. I like to think that it won't, but I don't feel confident. Just like I don't think it's worth putting up a female candidate again because there's too much internalized (and externalized) misogyny to overcome when the margins are already so close. I want the Dems to try to reach the non-assholes of the demographics they struggle with - the people who truly are just so worried about paying their bills, but there are also just a lot of assholes out there. And the misinformation is BRUTAL.

Yesssssss. I think we need to learn to distinguish between the actual MAGAs and the low-information voters who saw a sign that said "Trump = low taxes" one time and made up their minds from that. I KNOW none of us can understand that level of disinterest, but we have to try. There are people voting against their own interests because the GOP has a better messaging machine. We need to talk to those people, and not conflate them with actual die-hard Trump people.

Even the low information voters know he's a rapist. A felon. A racist. A sexist. A homophobe. There is way to not know he is those things. I have no idea how to discuss lower taxes with people willing to set those things aside. I am not talking about liking them. I am talking about even engaging them.

[Beeps (WOT?*)]

I'm going to drop this here. Right Wing Media made Trump, elected Trump, and controls the narrative.

newrepublic.com/post/188197/trump-media-information-landscape-fox?fbclid=IwY2xjawGe9NNleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHYwan_FhNKrWfRtG12rvXCMTpNMoxDeZMHdlC503Is0lRtbdvyiuOHgAQg_aem_DY5u6cphzkivyF1LHDRi8Q

We need to rebuild our Left Wing Media to counteract what people are hearing with the RWM, plus what they're hearing in their churches, and confirming in their echo chambers. Jeff Bezos did us no favors by pulling the WaPo endorsement.

[wildrice]

Nov 11, 2024 9:43:10 GMT -5 hermione said:

Nov 11, 2024 9:37:21 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Yesssssss. I think we need to learn to distinguish between the actual MAGAs and the low-information voters who saw a sign that said "Trump = low taxes" one time and made up their minds from that. I KNOW none of us can understand that level of disinterest, but we have to try. There are people voting against their own interests because the GOP has a better messaging machine. We need to talk to those people, and not conflate them with actual die-hard Trump people.

Even the low information voters know he's a rapist. A felon. A racist. A sexist. A homophobe. There is way to not know he is those things. I have no idea how to discuss lower taxes with people willing to set those things aside. I am not talking about liking them. I am talking about even engaging them.

A lot of people just don't care about those things. I mean, many of them probably ARE rapists themselves given the prevalence of sexual assault. I don't understand how anyone can look at him and think he is a person who should have any kind of platform, but at some point we are going to have to accept that people do not care.

If we want to win an election in the future, we have to engage in a way that will speak to what they want. This isn't to say we shouldn't continue to fight racism, homophobia, sexism, and everything else - but the democratic party is going to have to be more than that, too.

I don't think marginalized folks need to go out and do that themselves - but I am thinking maybe I should since I am not who is being harmed here.

Idk. I hate it here (the US, not GBCN)

[stuffandthings]

Nov 11, 2024 9:43:10 GMT -5 hermione said:

Nov 11, 2024 9:37:21 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Yesssssss. I think we need to learn to distinguish between the actual MAGAs and the low-information voters who saw a sign that said "Trump = low taxes" one time and made up their minds from that. I KNOW none of us can understand that level of disinterest, but we have to try. There are people voting against their own interests because the GOP has a better messaging machine. We need to talk to those people, and not conflate them with actual die-hard Trump people.

Even the low information voters know he's a rapist. A felon. A racist. A sexist. A homophobe. There is way to not know he is those things. I have no idea how to discuss lower taxes with people willing to set those things aside. I am not talking about liking them. I am talking about even engaging them.

But plenty of those low-info voters DON'T know, is what I'm saying. I know someone back in 2016 who voted for him and had never heard of the Access Hollywood tape, the Central Park Five stuff, or the Lock Her Up chants. She's pro-choice and pro-immigration when she actually thinks about it. She literally just knew that he was a "businessman" who had a reality TV show and "wasn't a politician." This is a person with a Master's degree. This is a smart person with two daughters. This person is a teacher. I know it seems crazy to people who are impassioned about this stuff, like you and me, but there really is a whole giant mass of folks out there who intentionally block out *anything* to do with politics, news, or current events. That's where I plan to start--finding those folks and talking to them.

[neverfstop]

Nov 11, 2024 10:00:26 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Nov 11, 2024 9:43:10 GMT -5 hermione said:

Even the low information voters know he's a rapist. A felon. A racist. A sexist. A homophobe. There is way to not know he is those things. I have no idea how to discuss lower taxes with people willing to set those things aside. I am not talking about liking them. I am talking about even engaging them.

A lot of people just don't care about those things. I mean, many of them probably ARE rapists themselves given the prevalence of sexual assault. I don't understand how anyone can look at him and think he is a person who should have any kind of platform, but at some point we are going to have to accept that people do not care.

If we want to win an election in the future, we have to engage in a way that will speak to what they want. This isn't to say we shouldn't continue to fight racism, homophobia, sexism, and everything else - but the democratic party is going to have to be more than that, too.

I don't think marginalized folks need to go out and do that themselves - but I am thinking maybe I should since I am not who is being harmed here.

Idk. I hate it here (the US, not GBCN)

I heard a new one this  morning regarding Trump's felon/rapist background "Well, he wasn't the first person to occupy the WH who was abusive or a felon..."  JFC- blows my mind  about how people will justify things.  I also think Trump's persecution complex fooled many people or at least gave them cover to say he was wrongly convicted or only charged b/c people hated him. 

[Bad Dingo]

Nov 11, 2024 10:16:13 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 11, 2024 9:43:10 GMT -5 hermione said:

Even the low information voters know he's a rapist. A felon. A racist. A sexist. A homophobe. There is way to not know he is those things. I have no idea how to discuss lower taxes with people willing to set those things aside. I am not talking about liking them. I am talking about even engaging them.

But plenty of those low-info voters DON'T know, is what I'm saying. I know someone back in 2016 who voted for him and had never heard of the Access Hollywood tape, the Central Park Five stuff, or the Lock Her Up chants. She's pro-choice and pro-immigration when she actually thinks about it. She literally just knew that he was a "businessman" who had a reality TV show and "wasn't a politician." This is a person with a Master's degree. This is a smart person with two daughters. This person is a teacher. I know it seems crazy to people who are impassioned about this stuff, like you and me, but there really is a whole giant mass of folks out there who intentionally block out *anything* to do with politics, news, or current events. That's where I plan to start--finding those folks and talking to them.

This is just willful ignorance and weaponized incompetence.  You don't have to be impassioned about politics to know the barest minimum about people running for office, what is happening in the world, etc.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 11, 2024 10:27:20 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Nov 11, 2024 10:16:13 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

But plenty of those low-info voters DON'T know, is what I'm saying. I know someone back in 2016 who voted for him and had never heard of the Access Hollywood tape, the Central Park Five stuff, or the Lock Her Up chants. She's pro-choice and pro-immigration when she actually thinks about it. She literally just knew that he was a "businessman" who had a reality TV show and "wasn't a politician." This is a person with a Master's degree. This is a smart person with two daughters. This person is a teacher. I know it seems crazy to people who are impassioned about this stuff, like you and me, but there really is a whole giant mass of folks out there who intentionally block out *anything* to do with politics, news, or current events. That's where I plan to start--finding those folks and talking to them.

This is just willful ignorance and weaponized incompetence.  You don't have to be impassioned about politics to know the barest minimum about people running for office, what is happening in the world, etc.

I'm not saying it's a positive trait--I'm saying it's a widespread one, and one we need to combat just like we combat disinformation. I think it's very easy to configure your online experience to never encounter anything that upsets or bothers you. Our information systems are intentionally designed to allow people to access only things they like or agree with. It's extremely easy to set up your social media feed in such a way that you never hear anything about news or politics or anything outside your particular hobbies and interests. Algorithms can be easily set in that way. If you don't actually watch or read any news, and you've set your social media to hide all the people you know who post about politics or news, then you won't see it. General interest intermediaries have been declining for decades and we're seeing the impact now. 

[dontlook]

Nov 11, 2024 9:57:14 GMT -5 Beeps (WOT?*) said:

I'm going to drop this here. Right Wing Media made Trump, elected Trump, and controls the narrative.

newrepublic.com/post/188197/trump-media-information-landscape-fox?fbclid=IwY2xjawGe9NNleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHYwan_FhNKrWfRtG12rvXCMTpNMoxDeZMHdlC503Is0lRtbdvyiuOHgAQg_aem_DY5u6cphzkivyF1LHDRi8Q

We need to rebuild our Left Wing Media to counteract what people are hearing with the RWM, plus what they're hearing in their churches, and confirming in their echo chambers. Jeff Bezos did us no favors by pulling the WaPo endorsement.

We also need to rebuild the Dem bench. Where are the young exciting candidates? We have pushed so many of our own aside to promote HRC and Biden. Love them both but they aren’t the future of the party. We are so laser focused on the election in front of us that we have not planned well for the future (as far as I can tell).

[sonrisa]

Nov 11, 2024 9:13:43 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Nov 11, 2024 6:29:36 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

"The working class is not buying the ivory-towered nonsense that the far left is selling," Torres added.
--------
The reality of liberal-run cities, gutted by crime and citizens fleeing — dotted with large tent communities for homeless people, ravaged by drugs — went viral. Portland, Oregon, and San Francisco were seen as case studies of unmitigated permissiveness.

(axios email)

Homelessness is a result of poverty, not lawlessness. If people don't like seeing people living on the streets, they need to vote for policies that will help get them into housing, not jails.

and lack of health care. (Which is related to poverty but not the same). Inaqdewuate or failed healthcare can lead to being unhouse and being unhoused is also a healthcare problem.

[wawa]

Nov 11, 2024 10:21:26 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Nov 11, 2024 10:00:26 GMT -5 wildrice said:

A lot of people just don't care about those things. I mean, many of them probably ARE rapists themselves given the prevalence of sexual assault. I don't understand how anyone can look at him and think he is a person who should have any kind of platform, but at some point we are going to have to accept that people do not care.

If we want to win an election in the future, we have to engage in a way that will speak to what they want. This isn't to say we shouldn't continue to fight racism, homophobia, sexism, and everything else - but the democratic party is going to have to be more than that, too.

I don't think marginalized folks need to go out and do that themselves - but I am thinking maybe I should since I am not who is being harmed here.

Idk. I hate it here (the US, not GBCN)

I heard a new one this  morning regarding Trump's felon/rapist background "Well, he wasn't the first person to occupy the WH who was abusive or a felon..."  JFC- blows my mind  about how people will justify things.  I also think Trump's persecution complex fooled many people or at least gave them cover to say he was wrongly convicted or only charged b/c people hated him. 

I think there's also a pretty sizeable group of people, affiliated with both parties, who think all politicians are terrible liars and generally bad people, so they don't find it disqualifying because they truly believe the "other side" is "just as bad" and they're just better at hiding it.  Like, there's no good people to vote for, so they just set "all that" aside.  I DO get that.  I don't believe it, but I do get it.

Just like believing that neither side intends to do a goddamn good thing about the genocide in Gaza and voting based on other factors that are a differentiator for you...

[mrsslocombe]

Nov 11, 2024 6:29:36 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn). tweeted yesterday that the left is "out of touch with the crisis of meaning/purpose fueling MAGA. We refuse to pick big fights. Our tent is too small."

"We don't listen enough; we tell people what's good for them," he added.
Rep. Ritchie Torres, a Democrat from the Bronx, tweeted the morning after the election: "Donald Trump has no greater friend than the far left, which has managed to alienate historic numbers of Latinos, Blacks, Asians, and Jews from the Democratic Party with absurdities like 'Defund the Police.'"

"The working class is not buying the ivory-towered nonsense that the far left is selling," Torres added.
--------
The reality of liberal-run cities, gutted by crime and citizens fleeing — dotted with large tent communities for homeless people, ravaged by drugs — went viral. Portland, Oregon, and San Francisco were seen as case studies of unmitigated permissiveness.

(axios email)

Ritchie Torres can miss me with this. He KNOWS that crime is down in NYC. Also the "defund the police" movement wasn't created by rich white liberals in Ivory Towers, it was built by black activists. I think the movement was a messaging failure, and the name is bad (because the actual movement is about investing in schools, social workers, mental health workers, community anti-violence groups, etc vs JUST throwing billions at the police), but to act like rising homelessness in liberal cities is because of Defund the Police? Fuck off forever. 

He's been such a disappointment, he rode the wave of "The Squad" to get elected and now sounds like a moderate democrat. Also, notable that he singles out Jews (who voted 80% for Harris) but ignores the Arab community who has  been alienated from the Democratic Party. 

[dontlook]

Nov 11, 2024 10:21:26 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Nov 11, 2024 10:00:26 GMT -5 wildrice said:

A lot of people just don't care about those things. I mean, many of them probably ARE rapists themselves given the prevalence of sexual assault. I don't understand how anyone can look at him and think he is a person who should have any kind of platform, but at some point we are going to have to accept that people do not care.

If we want to win an election in the future, we have to engage in a way that will speak to what they want. This isn't to say we shouldn't continue to fight racism, homophobia, sexism, and everything else - but the democratic party is going to have to be more than that, too.

I don't think marginalized folks need to go out and do that themselves - but I am thinking maybe I should since I am not who is being harmed here.

Idk. I hate it here (the US, not GBCN)

I heard a new one this  morning regarding Trump's felon/rapist background "Well, he wasn't the first person to occupy the WH who was abusive or a felon..."  JFC- blows my mind  about how people will justify things.  I also think Trump's persecution complex fooled many people or at least gave them cover to say he was wrongly convicted or only charged b/c people hated him. 

Not only that but most people assume politicians are liars so that doesn’t bother these people.

I was listening to a show yesterday and they talked about how Dems focused on Trump’s terribleness but people weren’t afraid of that. They just didn’t care. We clearly lost our way in the messaging if people didn’t care that the future president is a felon. What does that mean to and for them?

[Beeps (WOT?*)]

Nov 11, 2024 10:42:48 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Nov 11, 2024 9:57:14 GMT -5 Beeps (WOT?*) said:

I'm going to drop this here. Right Wing Media made Trump, elected Trump, and controls the narrative.

newrepublic.com/post/188197/trump-media-information-landscape-fox?fbclid=IwY2xjawGe9NNleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHYwan_FhNKrWfRtG12rvXCMTpNMoxDeZMHdlC503Is0lRtbdvyiuOHgAQg_aem_DY5u6cphzkivyF1LHDRi8Q

We need to rebuild our Left Wing Media to counteract what people are hearing with the RWM, plus what they're hearing in their churches, and confirming in their echo chambers. Jeff Bezos did us no favors by pulling the WaPo endorsement.

We also need to rebuild the Dem bench. Where are the young exciting candidates? We have pushed so many of our own aside to promote HRC and Biden. Love them both but they aren’t the future of the party. We are so laser focused on the election in front of us that we have not planned well for the future (as far as I can tell).

100% This. I spent Tuesday and Wednesday wracking my brain to think who might be electable (notably as a white cis- male, sadly because we're apparently still there because Kamala *had* to pick Tim Walz or comparable to "balance" her candidacy, and HRC *had* to nominate Tim Kaine for the same reason, and Obama *had* to pick Biden or similar for the same reason, so we're still at the We Can't Nominate for Top of Ticket... We can't have Hakeem Jeffries no matter his qualifications because "We already had Obama" and Pete Buttigieg is out because "OMG Men In Women's Bathrooms..." Can't have a woman because we've already had two of the best candidates Ever On Record lose to a raping, treasonous POS. We have THAT battle to fight, too, thanks to the racism and bigotry that permeates our society.

(ETA: I'm saying this as a measure to bring in the folks who thought it was okay to vote for Trump despite him being the trash he is because it was a "better" option because racism and misogyny will still win over qualifications, apparently. But as someone said above re: Obama and AOC, maybe we DO need someone "not entrenched in politics but works For The People." Kamala and Hillary were "entrenched" it seems. I'm also spitting-mad-cursing-as I type it and re-read what I typed, ftr.)

[acuore]

Nov 11, 2024 8:40:56 GMT -5 AJL said:

Nov 10, 2024 10:39:35 GMT -5 taratru said:

I refuse to be responsible for someone else's insecurities around my education. Education doesn't lead to being a Democrat. What is *can* do is make a person able to see facts instead of fear, and I think that's why the GOP has fostered this "elite" issue.

I completely understand why the messaging hits that way, and why the GOP has been able to build an entire machine on it. In the day-to-day of the "get into your own communities," I think education is the only solution. People have to become literate in ways that benefit them, and that doesn't have to be college. At the same time, I think we all know that there is critical thinking, literacy learning, and interactions with people from other cultures/places that happens in college that you just can't get (unless you are individually motivated to do so, which the working class may not have time for) through on the job or trades training.  

Ew. Come on. This is bullshit. It's also unfair and reductionist. 

Agree. In fact, I would argue that there are other, more widespread, “cultures” that a blue-collar worker or tradeperson who has never been to college likely interacts with much, much more than a college-educated professional who spent four years in the liberal echo chamber of an elite university. And I say this as the child of two university professors and spouse of another. 

[wawa]

Nov 11, 2024 10:42:48 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Nov 11, 2024 9:57:14 GMT -5 Beeps (WOT?*) said:

I'm going to drop this here. Right Wing Media made Trump, elected Trump, and controls the narrative.

newrepublic.com/post/188197/trump-media-information-landscape-fox?fbclid=IwY2xjawGe9NNleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHYwan_FhNKrWfRtG12rvXCMTpNMoxDeZMHdlC503Is0lRtbdvyiuOHgAQg_aem_DY5u6cphzkivyF1LHDRi8Q

We need to rebuild our Left Wing Media to counteract what people are hearing with the RWM, plus what they're hearing in their churches, and confirming in their echo chambers. Jeff Bezos did us no favors by pulling the WaPo endorsement.

We also need to rebuild the Dem bench. Where are the young exciting candidates? We have pushed so many of our own aside to promote HRC and Biden. Love them both but they aren’t the future of the party. We are so laser focused on the election in front of us that we have not planned well for the future (as far as I can tell).

I found the buzz around the initial long-list of Kamala's VP picks to be eye opening here.  I think we do have a bench!  they're just aren't household names, and now's the time to start elevating them.  Like I had no idea who the hell Walz was until then. I don't think I'd be familiar with Shapiro if I didn't have family in PA.  
Who here had heard of Obama before his convention speech?  
I'd love to have a robust primary ticket where I actually have a hard time deciding because they're all good options and it honestly feels possible when I scroll through a list of swing state dem gov's and congresspeople.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 11, 2024 10:59:36 GMT -5 wawa said:

Nov 11, 2024 10:42:48 GMT -5 dontlook said:

We also need to rebuild the Dem bench. Where are the young exciting candidates? We have pushed so many of our own aside to promote HRC and Biden. Love them both but they aren’t the future of the party. We are so laser focused on the election in front of us that we have not planned well for the future (as far as I can tell).

I found the buzz around the initial long-list of Kamala's VP picks to be eye opening here.  I think we do have a bench!  they're just aren't household names, and now's the time to start elevating them.  Like I had no idea who the hell Walz was until then. I don't think I'd be familiar with Shapiro if I didn't have family in PA.  
Who here had heard of Obama before his convention speech?  
I'd love to have a robust primary ticket where I actually have a hard time deciding because they're all good options and it honestly feels possible when I scroll through a list of swing state dem gov's and congresspeople.

We had a pretty good primary in 2020!

There are so many great Democratic leaders right now, we just need to highlight them. In my state alone, we have Josh Kaul, Mandela Barnes, Kelda Roys...so many! (Tony Evers is a lovely governor but he's too old to run for President, IMO.)

[dontlook]

Nov 11, 2024 11:06:14 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 11, 2024 10:59:36 GMT -5 wawa said:

I found the buzz around the initial long-list of Kamala's VP picks to be eye opening here.  I think we do have a bench!  they're just aren't household names, and now's the time to start elevating them.  Like I had no idea who the hell Walz was until then. I don't think I'd be familiar with Shapiro if I didn't have family in PA.  
Who here had heard of Obama before his convention speech?  
I'd love to have a robust primary ticket where I actually have a hard time deciding because they're all good options and it honestly feels possible when I scroll through a list of swing state dem gov's and congresspeople.

We had a pretty good primary in 2020!

There are so many great Democratic leaders right now, we just need to highlight them. In my state alone, we have Josh Kaul, Mandela Barnes, Kelda Roys...so many! (Tony Evers is a lovely governor but he's too old to run for President, IMO.)

I’m excited to hear more from and about them! It feels pretty bleak from what I can see. I’ll happily be wrong about this.