Soul-Searching, Recriminations Within Democratic Party

[Beeps (WOT?*)]

Nov 11, 2024 11:11:40 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Nov 11, 2024 11:06:14 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

We had a pretty good primary in 2020!

There are so many great Democratic leaders right now, we just need to highlight them. In my state alone, we have Josh Kaul, Mandela Barnes, Kelda Roys...so many! (Tony Evers is a lovely governor but he's too old to run for President, IMO.)

I’m excited to hear more from and about them! It feels pretty bleak from what I can see. I’ll happily be wrong about this.

In my state we just elected Bob Ferguson as governor. He was our Attorney General and if you think you recognize the name, it's because he sued the Trump administration numerous times AND WON (immigration comes immediately to mind.) He and our new Attorney General Nick Brown are already meeting to discuss how to deal with a second Trump administration. Nick Brown will also be someone to look for, I think, but he's not Bob Ferguson level quite yet.

Washington has some great representation at the state (and local) level as well. Our Secretary of State, Steve Hobbs, has national aspirations, especially since his appointment and then re-election to the position. We have Patty Murray as a senior Senator but she'll need to step down at some point sooner rather than later, and I'd like to see Maria Cantwell step into her role and maybe Rick Larsen in the Senate (since it's a normal progression from US House to US Senate; as much as I love Suzan delBene as my Rep he's a stand out locally, so much so that even the most leftist of leftists hate him) and my local rep, April Berg, elected to US Rep from her state position. She's a former school board member who was elected as State Rep (which is a part-time position here in WA); she is amazing in her public relations, administration, name recognition locally... She can do some pretty great things (and I say this as I am good friends with our *other* state rep, lol.)
I'd still like to see folks like Colin Allred pushed to the fore as well.

[somersault72]

Nov 11, 2024 10:56:45 GMT -5 Beeps (WOT?*) said:

Nov 11, 2024 10:42:48 GMT -5 dontlook said:

We also need to rebuild the Dem bench. Where are the young exciting candidates? We have pushed so many of our own aside to promote HRC and Biden. Love them both but they aren’t the future of the party. We are so laser focused on the election in front of us that we have not planned well for the future (as far as I can tell).

100% This. I spent Tuesday and Wednesday wracking my brain to think who might be electable (notably as a white cis- male, sadly because we're apparently still there because Kamala *had* to pick Tim Walz or comparable to "balance" her candidacy, and HRC *had* to nominate Tim Kaine for the same reason, and Obama *had* to pick Biden or similar for the same reason, so we're still at the We Can't Nominate for Top of Ticket... We can't have Hakeem Jeffries no matter his qualifications because "We already had Obama" and Pete Buttigieg is out because "OMG Men In Women's Bathrooms..." Can't have a woman because we've already had two of the best candidates Ever On Record lose to a raping, treasonous POS. We have THAT battle to fight, too, thanks to the racism and bigotry that permeates our society.

(ETA: I'm saying this as a measure to bring in the folks who thought it was okay to vote for Trump despite him being the trash he is because it was a "better" option because racism and misogyny will still win over qualifications, apparently. But as someone said above re: Obama and AOC, maybe we DO need someone "not entrenched in politics but works For The People." Kamala and Hillary were "entrenched" it seems. I'm also spitting-mad-cursing-as I type it and re-read what I typed, ftr.)

I'll tell you what, we knew she had to pick a white dude and I LOVE Tim Walz so much and think he was the perfect choice but before I knew about him I was on the Andy Beshear train. He is fantastic. Even my husband's far right family in Kentucky loves Andy, now THAT is impressive, AND he's on the younger side. People were really into Mark Kelly, too. I liked that she had several great options.

[penguingrrl]

I have my eye o. Andy Kim as a rising star as well. He’s been amazing in co guess and was just elected to senate, and is the first Korean American senator.

[Beeps (WOT?*)]

Nov 11, 2024 11:35:30 GMT -5 somersault72 said:

Nov 11, 2024 10:56:45 GMT -5 Beeps (WOT?*) said:

(lots of words, lol.)

I'll tell you what, we knew she had to pick a white dude and I LOVE Tim Walz so much and think he was the perfect choice but before I knew about him I was on the Andy Beshear train. He is fantastic. Even my husband's far right family in Kentucky loves Andy, now THAT is impressive, AND he's on the younger side. People were really into Mark Kelly, too. I liked that she had several great options.

I Loved Andy Beshear and Mark Kelly as options as well, and would love to see them both on the national stage. I've been a Mark Kelly fan for ages and hadn't really heard of Andy Beshear until his name came up as a potential running mate. Ditto for Josh Shapiro in PA. My problem with them going further is that would leave holes in the state that are more likely than not to swing red unless we can get some stronger blue candidates there as well.

There are names coming out that we've not heard of before, which is kind of exciting for me to see as potentials in 2028. As long as we don't get TOO big of a list and end up as a Republicans 2026 nightmare of too many nominees create too much spread and the trash comes to the top.

[cville]

Y'all. I'm all in on the basket of deplorables and willful ignorance and racism and misogyny explaining the outcome.

The lesson I think we should be taking from this, though, is that he won their HEARTS, so he didn't have to win their minds. He appealed to their base needs, defined the left to them, and gave them a common enemy. That's it. It's pretty simple, really.

I want to shoot everyone who voted for him into the sun.

But before we load up the catapult, we need to find those who aren't 45 cultists and listen hard to what they're telling us they care about. Not because we think they're persuadable, but because it will help us learn how to refine and shape our message so that we can define ourselves to the people who are persuadable. We don't need to empathize with or coddle them. We need to use them as tools to figure out how he got people to think Kamala cares more about cultural than economic issues and then vote for him, despite 1) it being false, and 2) the central importance of the issues of civil rights and self-determination.

I hate 45. Hate. But he's good at telling people something* in a way that motivates them to act. We need to do the same for the people who voted Biden and stayed home for Kamala. Not only so we can win next time, but so we can in the meantime successfully motivate folks. We** need more than allies these next 4 years, we need a committed force to defend those who will need it the most.



*lies, vile disgusting rights-depriving hatred, etc.

**ETA: those of us--like me--who are the least likely to be personally harmed by this shitshow of an administration need to be fighting the hardest. I'm over my wallowing. I'm in attack mode now. Fuck them all. Time to keep fighting. LFG.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 11, 2024 11:50:16 GMT -5 cville said:

Y'all. I'm all in on the basket of deplorables and willful ignorance and racism and misogyny explaining the outcome.

The lesson I think we should be taking from this, though, is that he won their HEARTS, so he didn't have to win their minds. He appealed to their base needs, defined the left to them, and gave them a common enemy. That's it. It's pretty simple, really.

I want to shoot everyone who voted for him into the sun.

But before we load up the catapult, we need to find those who aren't 45 cultists and listen hard to what they're telling us they care about. Not because we think they're persuadable, but because it will help us learn how to refine and shape our message so that we can define ourselves to the people who are persuadable. We don't need to empathize with or coddle them. We need to use them as tools to figure out how he got people to think Kamala cares more about cultural than economic issues and then vote for him, despite 1) it being false, and 2) the central importance of the issues of civil rights and self-determination.

I hate 45. Hate. But he's good at telling people something* in a way that motivates them to act. We need to do the same for the people who voted Biden and stayed home for Kamala. Not only so we can win next time, but so we can in the meantime successfully motivate folks. We need more than allies these next 4 years, we need a committed force to defend those who will need it the most.



*lies, vile disgusting rights-depriving hatred, etc.

Thissssssssss is it.

It's terrible. But it happened, and we gotta fight back against it if we want things to get better.

[sent]

Nov 11, 2024 11:40:31 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I have my eye o. Andy Kim as a rising star as well. He’s been amazing in co guess and was just elected to senate, and is the first Korean American senator.

My (not-white and/or immigrant) friends and I like to refer to him as our very own "DEI senator." In case it's not clear, we are being sarcastic that the letters "DEI" have to even be used to describe someone like him mainly because the letters "DEI" were used as a way to insult and downplay Kamala's accomplishments. 

[somersault72]

Nov 11, 2024 0:21:24 GMT -5 ellipses84 said:

Nov 11, 2024 0:08:37 GMT -5 RoxMonster said:

I follow AOC on Instagram. She did some stories tonight and shared that her congressional district went for Trump and at the same time, she won her seat again. She put out a question box asking people who voted for both Trump and her why they did so.

The top two common themes I saw in the responses she shared from people so far are:

“Both you and Trump are for the working class”
“Both of you aren’t part of the establishment and are outsiders”

Ugh, I hate this. Meanwhile people complained they didn’t know enough about Kamala’s policies. Do they even know their own goals or realize their reps probably won’t accomplish their goals if they vote split ticket? I can understand more if someone can’t bear to vote for someone so they are holding their nose and voting for someone else they don’t like, then voting for the opposition down ballot as a bit of a check and balance system. Unfortunately I know Dems that really never liked Biden as the 2020 pick (probably going back to the Obama years or earlier?), and don’t love Harris due to her ties to the Biden admin, but they hate Trump and wouldn’t vote for him!

This goes along with what I was saying about Iowa liking Populist candidates. They had the most amount of the same people vote for Obama because he was “For the People” and then vote for 🍊 because he was going to “Drain the swamp” even through they were on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

I absolutely love that she did this.

I once again feel like my dog Baxter pooped in the refrigerator and ate an entire wheel of cheese, because I am almost impressed how Trump and his fancy golf courses and his tower and his background and his arrogance and selfishness is "for the working class" but my God they fucking sold that shit hook, line, and sinker didn't they??

[Beeps (WOT?*)]

I want to like cville 's post so many times. All of it. The way he grabbed their hearts so he didn't need their minds. "I love the uneducated" (and the willfully ignorant educated, it seems.)

The hatred is palpable and visceral. I don't feel that for many but I can't even hear his voice or see his face without having a visceral reaction to it.

[Velar Fricative]

The single thing I want to focus on now, 15 pages later, is the fact that AOC was re-elected but her district voted for Trump. Knowing the demographics of her district, we need to figure that shit out to move forward. She posted the responses but that needs to inform the direction we head in.

So, people like outsiders and they like politicians who make you BELIEVE they are for the working class. And that’s something Trump does really really well - pretends he’s for the little people and that he was never an insider despite occupying the WH for four whole years already. And people buy it. I’ll never understand why, but that’s the reality we are working with.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Nov 11, 2024 12:13:40 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

The single thing I want to focus on now, 15 pages later, is the fact that AOC was re-elected but her district voted for Trump. Knowing the demographics of her district, we need to figure that shit out to move forward. She posted the responses but that needs to inform the direction we head in.

So, people like outsiders and they like politicians who make you BELIEVE they are for the working class. And that’s something Trump does really really well - pretends he’s for the little people and that he was never an insider despite occupying the WH for four whole years already. And people buy it. I’ll never understand why, but that’s the reality we are working with.

So... I've been seeing this with senators. Do we know AOC's numbers compared with Harris's and her opponent's vs Trump's? (Yes, I could look it up but I'm lazy right now).

For example, in NV, Jacky (sp?) Rosen won her Senate seat despite Trump winning the state, and numbers show that there were a large swath of Trump voters that didn't bother voting at all in her race. So, not exactly split ticket voting as much as not voting downballot.

100% agree we need to figure this shit out, but we need to make sure we're learning the right lesson and working from there.

[dontlook]

Nov 11, 2024 11:50:16 GMT -5 cville said:

Y'all. I'm all in on the basket of deplorables and willful ignorance and racism and misogyny explaining the outcome.

The lesson I think we should be taking from this, though, is that he won their HEARTS, so he didn't have to win their minds. He appealed to their base needs, defined the left to them, and gave them a common enemy. That's it. It's pretty simple, really.

I want to shoot everyone who voted for him into the sun.

But before we load up the catapult, we need to find those who aren't 45 cultists and listen hard to what they're telling us they care about. Not because we think they're persuadable, but because it will help us learn how to refine and shape our message so that we can define ourselves to the people who are persuadable. We don't need to empathize with or coddle them. We need to use them as tools to figure out how he got people to think Kamala cares more about cultural than economic issues and then vote for him, despite 1) it being false, and 2) the central importance of the issues of civil rights and self-determination.

I hate 45. Hate. But he's good at telling people something* in a way that motivates them to act. We need to do the same for the people who voted Biden and stayed home for Kamala. Not only so we can win next time, but so we can in the meantime successfully motivate folks. We need more than allies these next 4 years, we need a committed force to defend those who will need it the most.



*lies, vile disgusting rights-depriving hatred, etc.

Can you repost this and then we shut this thread down lol. So well said and so so so true.

[jeaniebueller]

Nov 11, 2024 0:08:37 GMT -5 RoxMonster said:

I follow AOC on Instagram. She did some stories tonight and shared that her congressional district went for Trump and at the same time, she won her seat again. She put out a question box asking people who voted for both Trump and her why they did so.

The top two common themes I saw in the responses she shared from people so far are:

“Both you and Trump are for the working class”
“Both of you aren’t part of the establishment and are outsiders”

It’s hard to take anything from her Instagram answers, and I think it’s kind of disingenuous of her to act like that’s a real cross-section when we know the way that she gets trolled and it’s likely that people are just putting anything in there

[Velar Fricative]

Nov 11, 2024 12:13:40 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

The single thing I want to focus on now, 15 pages later, is the fact that AOC was re-elected but her district voted for Trump. Knowing the demographics of her district, we need to figure that shit out to move forward. She posted the responses but that needs to inform the direction we head in.

So, people like outsiders and they like politicians who make you BELIEVE they are for the working class. And that’s something Trump does really really well - pretends he’s for the little people and that he was never an insider despite occupying the WH for four whole years already. And people buy it. I’ll never understand why, but that’s the reality we are working with.

Quoting myself to fix this because I misunderstand all the info from her district. Harris won the 14th district but Trump went from 22% to 33% between 2020 and 2024. So Trump didn’t win the district, but the district had among the biggest swings in NY.

[wildrice]

Nov 11, 2024 13:02:13 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Nov 11, 2024 12:13:40 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

The single thing I want to focus on now, 15 pages later, is the fact that AOC was re-elected but her district voted for Trump. Knowing the demographics of her district, we need to figure that shit out to move forward. She posted the responses but that needs to inform the direction we head in.

So, people like outsiders and they like politicians who make you BELIEVE they are for the working class. And that’s something Trump does really really well - pretends he’s for the little people and that he was never an insider despite occupying the WH for four whole years already. And people buy it. I’ll never understand why, but that’s the reality we are working with.

Quoting myself to fix this because I misunderstand all the info from her district. Harris won the 14th district but Trump went from 22% to 33% between 2020 and 2024. So Trump didn’t win the district, but the district had among the biggest swings in NY.

I have been seeing a lot of stories like this - either he outperformed or straight up won a lot of places where democrats won down ballot. It's super irregular and makes me almost put on a tin foil hat, but assuming it's all accurate - we have to dig into that. These are motivated voters who generally support democrats. Why are we missing them?

It makes me so mad and sad that this amazingly talented, brilliant, kind, qualified person is the one who doesn't get the vote. Wtf America.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Nov 11, 2024 13:13:35 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Nov 11, 2024 13:02:13 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Quoting myself to fix this because I misunderstand all the info from her district. Harris won the 14th district but Trump went from 22% to 33% between 2020 and 2024. So Trump didn’t win the district, but the district had among the biggest swings in NY.

I have been seeing a lot of stories like this - either he outperformed or straight up won a lot of places where democrats won down ballot. It's super irregular and makes me almost put on a tin foil hat, but assuming it's all accurate - we have to dig into that. These are motivated voters who generally support democrats. Why are we missing them?

It makes me so mad and sad that this amazingly talented, brilliant, kind, qualified person is the one who doesn't get the vote. Wtf America.

I talked about this in another post. People voted for Trump and left the rest of the ballot blank.

[mrsslocombe]

Nov 11, 2024 13:13:35 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Nov 11, 2024 13:02:13 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Quoting myself to fix this because I misunderstand all the info from her district. Harris won the 14th district but Trump went from 22% to 33% between 2020 and 2024. So Trump didn’t win the district, but the district had among the biggest swings in NY.

I have been seeing a lot of stories like this - either he outperformed or straight up won a lot of places where democrats won down ballot. It's super irregular and makes me almost put on a tin foil hat, but assuming it's all accurate - we have to dig into that. These are motivated voters who generally support democrats. Why are we missing them?

It makes me so mad and sad that this amazingly talented, brilliant, kind, qualified person is the one who doesn't get the vote. Wtf America.

Just FYI, some of this disparity is that there were people who ONLY voted for Trump, and left the rest of the ballot blank. Which is interesting data in it's own way.

Honestly, it doesn't surprise me that there were swings in NYC. There's very little campaigning here, for nearly every race. The presidential campaigns (and primary campaigns) basically ignore us, because 1. Our primary is so late, it doesn't matter. and 2. it's assumed we will vote Democratic.

Usually the ONLY campaigns I see in my neighborhood are the democratic primary for our local city council. And I will give credit to my city council member, I see him EVERYWHERE, he works really, really hard.

My US House Rep doesn't campaign at all, she also wins by 60 points. She hasn't had a serious primary challenger since she was first elected. My NY House member runs unopposed. We have fairly low turnout because no is working to turn people out, so it's just the 15-25% of highly engaged (and more college educated, wealthy) who vote. So the Trump campaign doing ANY sort of outreach here is going to make an impact, because there's a vacuum.

[emilyj]

Nov 11, 2024 10:58:21 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 11, 2024 8:40:56 GMT -5 AJL said:

Ew. Come on. This is bullshit. It's also unfair and reductionist. 

Agree. In fact, I would argue that there are other, more widespread, “cultures” that a blue-collar worker or tradeperson who has never been to college likely interacts with much, much more than a college-educated professional who spent four years in the liberal echo chamber of an elite university. And I say this as the child of two university professors and spouse of another. 

I want to come back to this on the critical thinking and literacy learning points.  How/where are people learning how to do this?

I am a professor. I teach in a media major. The lack of ability to think critically has increased over the past...sheesh...6 or 8 years? Very few of my students can demonstrate the ability to think critically. Some openly refuse. I don't do exams in my classes anymore, because I want them to think.  Some of them openly panic about this. Teach to the test has been awful. The rise of AI has made it worse. 

I have also, in the last couple years, seen a rise in the dismissiveness of media literacy. And hell...literacy. Two weeks ago I had a college junior tell me the amount of reading I assign for my classes is "excessive."  It's roughly 40 pages a week. When I try and talk through media, and sources, and bias, and questioning information....well. Last week I literally had one scoff at me and say "Whatever." 

So if they aren't learning critical thinking and literacy in high school and it's reductionist to say that it's only learned in college...where do they ultimately learn it? I'm not asking to be an asshole. I'm genuinely curious. 

[ellipses84]

Nov 11, 2024 11:59:22 GMT -5 somersault72 said:

Nov 11, 2024 0:21:24 GMT -5 ellipses84 said:

Ugh, I hate this. Meanwhile people complained they didn’t know enough about Kamala’s policies. Do they even know their own goals or realize their reps probably won’t accomplish their goals if they vote split ticket? I can understand more if someone can’t bear to vote for someone so they are holding their nose and voting for someone else they don’t like, then voting for the opposition down ballot as a bit of a check and balance system. Unfortunately I know Dems that really never liked Biden as the 2020 pick (probably going back to the Obama years or earlier?), and don’t love Harris due to her ties to the Biden admin, but they hate Trump and wouldn’t vote for him!

This goes along with what I was saying about Iowa liking Populist candidates. They had the most amount of the same people vote for Obama because he was “For the People” and then vote for 🍊 because he was going to “Drain the swamp” even through they were on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

I absolutely love that she did this.

I once again feel like my dog Baxter pooped in the refrigerator and ate an entire wheel of cheese, because I am almost impressed how Trump and his fancy golf courses and his tower and his background and his arrogance and selfishness is "for the working class" but my God they fucking sold that shit hook, line, and sinker didn't they??

I love that AOC asked the question! I’ve watched her video now. I hate that people fall for 🍊💩 because he’s a celebrity, because they think he’s a smart rich businessman, because they think he’s a holy man, when he’s the opposite. Other people said Gaza, that they weren’t happy with the Biden admin, that they are still Bernie Bros (even though Bernie begged them to vote for Harris). Some did say because they want checks and balances between D/R.

[atexan]

Nov 11, 2024 11:50:16 GMT -5 cville said:

Y'all. I'm all in on the basket of deplorables and willful ignorance and racism and misogyny explaining the outcome.

The lesson I think we should be taking from this, though, is that he won their HEARTS, so he didn't have to win their minds. He appealed to their base needs, defined the left to them, and gave them a common enemy. That's it. It's pretty simple, really.

I want to shoot everyone who voted for him into the sun.

But before we load up the catapult, we need to find those who aren't 45 cultists and listen hard to what they're telling us they care about. Not because we think they're persuadable, but because it will help us learn how to refine and shape our message so that we can define ourselves to the people who are persuadable. We don't need to empathize with or coddle them. We need to use them as tools to figure out how he got people to think Kamala cares more about cultural than economic issues and then vote for him, despite 1) it being false, and 2) the central importance of the issues of civil rights and self-determination.

I hate 45. Hate. But he's good at telling people something* in a way that motivates them to act. We need to do the same for the people who voted Biden and stayed home for Kamala. Not only so we can win next time, but so we can in the meantime successfully motivate folks. We** need more than allies these next 4 years, we need a committed force to defend those who will need it the most.



*lies, vile disgusting rights-depriving hatred, etc.

**ETA: those of us--like me--who are the least likely to be personally harmed by this shitshow of an administration need to be fighting the hardest. I'm over my wallowing. I'm in attack mode now. Fuck them all. Time to keep fighting. LFG.

This is so true. And let's not forget, he doesn't win "hearts" all by himself. He has a whole propaganda ecosystem propping him up and amplifying his messages and lies. Democratic policies are wayyyyyyy more popular than democratic politicians. People want to buy what we're selling. They've been convinced that voting for democrats is not the way to get it. We need a demagogue for good instead of evil. Much as I hate Bernie, this is kind of what he is.

[neverfstop]

The ticket splitting or non-voting is killing me. Who are these people that are motivated enough to go vote & vote for POTUS but skip everything else?!?!!?

I also think we should rebuild the party around ideas/themes & not people/personality. We need to win in all 3 branches & all 3 levels of government. We don't vote for SCOTUS but Dobbs had huge implications & the future needs to be talking about Congress just as much as POTUS b/c that's how & where we get shit done.

Biden's "Build back better" was a great slogan, did incredible things, and he got no credit for it. He should have been out there at every plant opening, every job fair, and anything else that our federal tax $$ are going to BACAUSE THEY ARE MOSTLY IN RED STATES & those people have no idea it's the feds that are creating jobs.

I know that 'defending democracy' wasn't an issue that most people cared about, but I think we can find some common ground & themes in that vein - like campaign finance reform (we could really spend a $1B on better things & everybody HATES it so much with all the calls, ads, etc.) or with restrictions on social media/tech for kids including misinformation or a better primary system/electoral college reform.

[Jalapeñomel]

Nov 11, 2024 13:40:21 GMT -5 emilyj said:

Nov 11, 2024 10:58:21 GMT -5 acuore said:

Agree. In fact, I would argue that there are other, more widespread, “cultures” that a blue-collar worker or tradeperson who has never been to college likely interacts with much, much more than a college-educated professional who spent four years in the liberal echo chamber of an elite university. And I say this as the child of two university professors and spouse of another. 

I want to come back to this on the critical thinking and literacy learning points.  How/where are people learning how to do this?

I am a professor. I teach in a media major. The lack of ability to think critically has increased over the past...sheesh...6 or 8 years? Very few of my students can demonstrate the ability to think critically. Some openly refuse. I don't do exams in my classes anymore, because I want them to think.  Some of them openly panic about this. Teach to the test has been awful. The rise of AI has made it worse. 

I have also, in the last couple years, seen a rise in the dismissiveness of media literacy. And hell...literacy. Two weeks ago I had a college junior tell me the amount of reading I assign for my classes is "excessive."  It's roughly 40 pages a week. When I try and talk through media, and sources, and bias, and questioning information....well. Last week I literally had one scoff at me and say "Whatever." 

So if they aren't learning critical thinking and literacy in high school and it's reductionist to say that it's only learned in college...where do they ultimately learn it? I'm not asking to be an asshole. I'm genuinely curious. 

We had a big conversation about this a couple weeks ago. I’ll try to find the thread.

Here it is: pandce.proboards.com/thread/643469

[ellipses84]

A concern I had before Biden stepped down was a lot of people voting third party due to Gaza and I don’t think it happened in the large numbers we thought it might, but if AOC’s survey and social media are true, some voted for 🍊 and some didn’t vote for President at all and then voted for down ballot Ds. I think low information voters of all ages and young GenZ men voted for 🍊 only and not down ballot, because they didn’t do any research and didn’t know who to vote for or care to take the time (one middle age white lady didn’t even know what party 🍊 was in person a poll worker I saw a video of). That can explain the odd discrepancies why he won the Presidency and why state wide Ds won down ballot races. In AZ and NC the state R candidates were particularly awful and not likely to win.

Please go read about populism and populist candidates. Democrats are considered the “elite”. “Leftists” have also fully separated themselves from the Democratic Party and in some cases aren’t voting or are so far left it’s a circle and they are voting Republican. Maybe that will change when people realize billionaires have bought our Gov’t but unfortunately people idolize them as celebrities and they’ve bought our mass media. Go watch Idiocracy again. Then tell me what you think our campaign messaging should be.

[emilyj]

Nov 11, 2024 14:37:07 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Nov 11, 2024 13:40:21 GMT -5 emilyj said:

I want to come back to this on the critical thinking and literacy learning points.  How/where are people learning how to do this?

I am a professor. I teach in a media major. The lack of ability to think critically has increased over the past...sheesh...6 or 8 years? Very few of my students can demonstrate the ability to think critically. Some openly refuse. I don't do exams in my classes anymore, because I want them to think.  Some of them openly panic about this. Teach to the test has been awful. The rise of AI has made it worse. 

I have also, in the last couple years, seen a rise in the dismissiveness of media literacy. And hell...literacy. Two weeks ago I had a college junior tell me the amount of reading I assign for my classes is "excessive."  It's roughly 40 pages a week. When I try and talk through media, and sources, and bias, and questioning information....well. Last week I literally had one scoff at me and say "Whatever." 

So if they aren't learning critical thinking and literacy in high school and it's reductionist to say that it's only learned in college...where do they ultimately learn it? I'm not asking to be an asshole. I'm genuinely curious. 

We had a big conversation about this a couple weeks ago. I’ll try to find the thread.

Here it is: pandce.proboards.com/thread/643469

I know.  I was in that thread. And (as I skim it again just to make sure I remember most of it), it primarily focused on reading/the lack of reading. Several posters made broader points about critical thinking (ex. pixy0stix saying critical thinking is a humanities skill). 

I'm not questioning if they should be reading. The point was made that college teaches you critical thinking and literacy skills, and got pushback as not being the only place that you can learn them.

So I'll ask the same question. If we aren't teaching critical thinking skills in high school. If kids aren't reading books. Then where do the people that don't go to college learn those skills from? Again, I'm not asking because I'm being an asshole. I genuinely want to know.

And before it gets thrown out - I 100% do not think everyone needs to go to college. We should do a better job in promoting trades as a valuable career. College isn't for everyone, nor should it be. 

[laladypoet]

is it true that Starlink helped tally votes?
and did y'all see Joe Rogan saying that Elon told him hours before Trump won that he had an app that told him all the votes and that Trump won?
and do y'all remember Trump saying at a rally that he already had all the votes but he "wasn't supposed to tell you that"?
and do y'all remember Elon telling Tucker that if Trump doesn't win, he (Elon) was going to jail?
and did you see that three Starlink satellites blew up?
is it possible we are dissecting something we were actually successful in?

all the stuff above is verifiable by the way. and no I'm not going to storm the capital.

[mcppalmbeach]

I’m not sure where to go with this, but I need to dump it somewhere. Someone mentioned voter records in a left leaning board I am on. So in an effort to waste hours of time (and I did), I searched the crap out of everyone I know personally and/or use as a service provider. My OBGYN office is a huge conglomerate in a blue county. Of the doctors I could find registered(some had names that were too common, some I couldn’t find and others had no party affiliation), nearly all of them were registered Republicans. Nearly all. Including my 40 year old white woman doctor and the peri who did our amnio when there were concerns our ds 2 had a genetic concern. I know that registered party doesn’t mean they voted for Trump, but wow. More women’s health providers registered for the party that is actively against women’s health. I don’t even know what to say.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 12, 2024 10:41:28 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

is it true that Starlink helped tally votes?
and did y'all see Joe Rogan saying that Elon told him hours before Trump won that he had an app that told him all the votes and that Trump won?
and do y'all remember Trump saying at a rally that he already had all the votes but he "wasn't supposed to tell you that"?
and do y'all remember Elon telling Tucker that if Trump doesn't win, he (Elon) was going to jail?
and did you see that three Starlink satellites blew up?
is it possible we are dissecting something we were actually successful in?

all the stuff above is verifiable by the way. and no I'm not going to storm the capital.

No.

I am an election official in Wisconsin. There's no "help" tallying votes, from Starlink or anyone else. We use tabulators that are publicly tested and sealed with security seals until we, the officials, open them at 8 AM on election day. Every ballot is printed on paper and those papers are fed through the tabulator. On election night we use the internet to send the vote counts to the state, but those are just the preliminary vote counts. The memory sticks for the tabulator are also saved and reviewed by both the city and county. THEN, the second Friday after the election, the official count begins, when every single vote is hand counted in the entire state. Eventually, every single ballot in the state of Wisconsin will be scanned and uploaded, where you can download it and review it yourself on the SoS website.

Our elections are secure. We lost. Please don't do this. It makes it so hard for us election officials to do our jobs.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 12, 2024 11:05:53 GMT -5 mcppalmbeach said:

I’m not sure where to go with this, but I need to dump it somewhere. Someone mentioned voter records in a left leaning board I am on. So in an effort to waste hours of time (and I did), I searched the crap out of everyone I know personally and/or use as a service provider. My OBGYN office is a huge conglomerate in a blue county. Of the doctors I could find registered(some had names that were too common, some I couldn’t find and others had no party affiliation), nearly all of them were registered Republicans. Nearly all. Including my 40 year old white woman doctor and the peri who did our amnio when there were concerns our ds 2 had a genetic concern. I know that registered party doesn’t mean they voted for Trump, but wow. More women’s health providers registered for the party that is actively against women’s health. I don’t even know what to say.

We don't have party affiliation in Wisconsin, but given the primary the GOP just had in the spring, I wouldn't put too much stock in party affiliation. A lot of folks registered as Republicans to vote against Trump in the primaries this year. More than 5 million people voted for other candidates in the GOP primaries, including about 4 million for Nikki Haley.

[ellipses84]

Nov 12, 2024 11:09:13 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 12, 2024 10:41:28 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

is it true that Starlink helped tally votes?
and did y'all see Joe Rogan saying that Elon told him hours before Trump won that he had an app that told him all the votes and that Trump won?
and do y'all remember Trump saying at a rally that he already had all the votes but he "wasn't supposed to tell you that"?
and do y'all remember Elon telling Tucker that if Trump doesn't win, he (Elon) was going to jail?
and did you see that three Starlink satellites blew up?
is it possible we are dissecting something we were actually successful in?

all the stuff above is verifiable by the way. and no I'm not going to storm the capital.

No.

I am an election official in Wisconsin. There's no "help" tallying votes, from Starlink or anyone else. We use tabulators that are publicly tested and sealed with security seals until we, the officials, open them at 8 AM on election day. Every ballot is printed on paper and those papers are fed through the tabulator. On election night we use the internet to send the vote counts to the state, but those are just the preliminary vote counts. The memory sticks for the tabulator are also saved and reviewed by both the city and county. THEN, the second Friday after the election, the official count begins, when every single vote is hand counted in the entire state. Eventually, every single ballot in the state of Wisconsin will be scanned and uploaded, where you can download it and review it yourself on the SoS website.

Our elections are secure. We lost. Please don't do this. It makes it so hard for us election officials to do our jobs.

There’s a lot of conspiracy theories but most of them have legit explanations or even if there are any concerns they wouldn’t add up to interference in every swing state, because every state does their voting process differently. Voter suppression / online misinformation / lack of critical thinking is our biggest issue in this election. Considering there’s a known cheater and a tech billionaire with Russian ties / interference running against a prosecutor VP, if anything shady happened, the International Intelligence community knows about it and the U.S. was watching and investigating. I don’t think Democrats theorizing or spreading conspiracy theories on the internet helps. I know some IT security people have notified the Governor of PA.

Not every state has paper in person ballots. Some are digital in person. Not every state can track ballots. A lot of people freaking out about their ballot not being counted aren’t checking the correct place, or they voted in person and it cannot be tracked. Some machines do have modems in them even though they aren’t supposed to and they aren’t supposed to be set up to the internet. I think the news stories where poll workers were talking about Starlink are referring to checking people in /checking ID on computers with Starlink, not voting machines or counting machines with Starlink.

I don’t see anything wrong with looking into concerns, or doing some strategic recounts in certain areas so both side feel confident with the integrity of the election. Sometimes close races trigger recounts and it sounds like that is happening per Kamala’s campaign.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 12, 2024 12:16:55 GMT -5 ellipses84 said:

Nov 12, 2024 11:09:13 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

No.

I am an election official in Wisconsin. There's no "help" tallying votes, from Starlink or anyone else. We use tabulators that are publicly tested and sealed with security seals until we, the officials, open them at 8 AM on election day. Every ballot is printed on paper and those papers are fed through the tabulator. On election night we use the internet to send the vote counts to the state, but those are just the preliminary vote counts. The memory sticks for the tabulator are also saved and reviewed by both the city and county. THEN, the second Friday after the election, the official count begins, when every single vote is hand counted in the entire state. Eventually, every single ballot in the state of Wisconsin will be scanned and uploaded, where you can download it and review it yourself on the SoS website.

Our elections are secure. We lost. Please don't do this. It makes it so hard for us election officials to do our jobs.

There’s a lot of conspiracy theories but most of them have legit explanations or even if there are any concerns they wouldn’t add up to interference in every swing state, because every state does their voting process differently. Voter suppression / online misinformation / lack of critical thinking is our biggest issue in this election. Considering there’s a known cheater and a tech billionaire with Russian ties / interference running against a prosecutor VP, if anything shady happened, the International Intelligence community knows about it and the U.S. was watching and investigating. I don’t think Democrats theorizing or spreading conspiracy theories on the internet helps. I know some IT security people have notified the Governor of PA.

Not every state has paper in person ballots. Some are digital in person. Not every state can track ballots. A lot of people freaking out about their ballot not being counted aren’t checking the correct place, or they voted in person and it cannot be tracked. Some machines do have modems in them even though they aren’t supposed to and they aren’t supposed to be set up to the internet. I think the news stories where poll workers were talking about Starlink are referring to checking people in /checking ID on computers with Starlink, not voting machines or counting machines with Starlink.

I don’t see anything wrong with looking into concerns, or doing some strategic recounts in certain areas so both side feel confident with the integrity of the election. Sometimes close races trigger recounts and it sounds like that is happening per Kamala’s campaign.

I definitely support looking into concerns and doing recounts when needed! What I don't support is conspiracy theories about the election outcome, especially ones predicated on the statements of a man who is A) a well-known liar, and B) famously a close friend of Vladimir Putin, who has been attempting to disrupt American elections for the past 20-some years. Every state has a chain of custody for their balloting process. Every single state has a final canvass where representatives from all parties are involved.

Rare instances of election fraud are almost always super obvious to experts because of how mathematically precise turnout data is these days. Remember Mark Harris in NC in 2018? That was obvious to most folks following the count in real time. The amount of time and money needed to pull off an election fraud of this scale is nearly impossible, and definitely impossible for people with as little self-control and subtlety as the Trump campaign's leaders.

I would urge people not to share any election theories or information unless it is reported in a news source. I despise Trump, but one important prerequisite to fascism is a belief on the behalf of the people that democracy doesn't work.

Also, I just want to say--in Wisconsin, we have to hand-order the ballots at the end of the night to tally the write-ins. (Tabulators can see that a write-in was selected but can't read people's handwriting to know who they voted for as a write-in). And I SAW, with my own eyes, a sizable number of ballots where people voted for Trump and then voted for Democrats down the ballot. I saw ballots where people voted third party or write-in and then voted for Democrats down the ballot. One person even voted for all Democrats, including our Senator, but wrote in Gretchen Whitmer for president. I live in the bluest county in Wisconsin, and I saw these ballots with my own eyes. Our margins were smaller here than in 2020 and that's what tipped Wisconsin red. I have a copy of the elections tape to prove it, if anyone wants to see it. (We're allowed to keep copies of the unofficial results tape, which print out of the tabulator before the votes are electronically sent in, if we want them.)