Soul-Searching, Recriminations Within Democratic Party

[pisces]

Nov 7, 2024 10:41:04 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:38:37 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Why am I* supposed to give a FUCK about fragile white men being scared of losing the top of their patriarchal pyramid, when I am scared of losing my life?!

* gay, trans, woman, minority

And to the wider point that it was not just white men who did this, it is indeed them who made other demographics "scared".

JFC THANK YOU.

anyone who thinks it's up to us to care about Trump voters has brain worms. and some of y'all are new and I'm side-eyeing yall

I'm a life long dem. Losing to Trump, again, made me realize the party isn't doing it's job and it's time to take a deeper look instead of just calling the other side names. Maybe we should start with how bad they botched Biden saying he would run again and then kicking him out without any primaries.

If you want more voters and you want to win, you need to appeal to more people. So they need to figure it out.

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 10:41:04 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:38:37 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Why am I* supposed to give a FUCK about fragile white men being scared of losing the top of their patriarchal pyramid, when I am scared of losing my life?!

* gay, trans, woman, minority

And to the wider point that it was not just white men who did this, it is indeed them who made other demographics "scared".

JFC THANK YOU.

anyone who thinks it's up to us to care about Trump voters has brain worms. and some of y'all are new and I'm side-eyeing yall

Side-eye all you want. I’ve actually been on this boards as a lurker and (very occasional) poster since the migration over from the Nest. You can go right on ranting about how much you hate all Trump voters and calling them whatever you want, but I would recommend considering that that attitude is extremely unlikely to win the Dems any further elections. 

For the record, I despise Trump, and have been involved in local Dem politics for years. I want to win elections. 

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 10:43:08 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:42:31 GMT -5 acuore said:

Yes, I believe most people vote (and frankly, live their lives) in this way. I wish it were different, but again, we have to deal with the fellow citizens we have, not those we wish we did. Most people, most of the time, need to be convinced that whoever they vote for is going to better their personal situation in some way. They will not be yelled at, shamed, or insulted into voting for what someone tells them is the morally superior candidate. 

girl shut up. I hope you fall off your high horse.

Charming. 

[lilac05]

Nov 7, 2024 10:38:37 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Why am I* supposed to give a FUCK about fragile white men being scared of losing the top of their patriarchal pyramid, when I am scared of losing my life?!

* gay, trans, woman, minority

And to the wider point that it was not just white men who did this, it is indeed them who made other demographics "scared".

I think this is important…not everyone needs to do every job. The marginalized among us don’t need to do shit other than whatever they want to do. No trans person needs to be trying to convince people they are worthy of the same love and respect given to everyone else. The privileged among us need to do the work. Instead of dehumanizing the people who are on the other side (by name calling) we need to be humanizing the people who we want to support and protect. Many people in rural communities have little personal connection with people different than them. (I just read yesterday that my hometown is 97% white, 1% black, 2% biracial…and that’s of almost 10,000 people, so not a SUPER tiny town.)

[cville]

Nov 7, 2024 10:45:13 GMT -5 meganew said:

WTF is happening that two days after the election were suppose to be fretting over the poor feelings of Trump voters and walking on egg shells so they don’t feel shame over their vote. Fuck outta here. I’m not saying that the dems should campaign on this (obviously- and I said it explicitly up thread) but me, as an individual not representing the campaign or Democratic Party as a whole, can absolutely say FUCK THEM.

Hard agree. I have a fuck you+ plus perspective.

Fuck you who voted for him. PLUS combat the misinformation that allowed* people to misunderstand.** In the hopes that doing so will bring people under our tent--whether they voted for him or not, heavy focus on those who didn't vote.


*gave them cover to bury their heads

**ignore actual facts

[sonrisa]

Nov 7, 2024 9:57:38 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:52:52 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Unfortunately, there are many trans hating lesbians. See Michfest for an example.

Cool story. They aren’t. They are decent people. Who are you to call allllllllll these people fascists, racist, and misogynist? The black men who voted for him? Asians? Fucking everyone right?

Honestly, you can’t see why this shit is a major problem with winning elections?

They may not be any of those things but they support someone who WILL enact all those policies.

Actions have consequences.

You can’t support the persecution of my young child and still expect me to treat you like a decent human being. If you don’t like it, then you can cry into your coffee.

Enough with the ‘poor me’ bullshit from those actively making life hell for our country. FUCK THEM.

[wise_rita]

Do I think every Trumper is a racist? No. But I do know they ain't shit.

Character matters, both in who you are and who you vote for.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 10:48:36 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:43:08 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

girl shut up. I hope you fall off your high horse.

Charming. 

I'm not great at dealing with nazi apologists, sorry.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 7, 2024 10:31:44 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:24:05 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

it looks like people here are walking right into the paradox of intolerance. what the fuck, people. yes, let's make fucking excuses for this country overwhelmingly voting for a rapist and felon over a qualified black woman.

seriously what are you trying to prove?

ETA: the royal you. not the quoted person. I'm quoting in agreement

Speaking only for myself, my point is that most of those people did not vote for Trump *because* he is a rapist felon, or not vote for Harris *because* she is a black woman. For many of them, there were other considerations that outweighed those factors. Smearing them all as racist woman-haters because they don’t share your order of priorities is unreasonable and, more importantly, dooms you (here I mean the Democrats generally) to electoral failure. 

That's kind of the point, though--the action of putting someone in power because you think they will help you, EVEN THOUGH you know they will harm people who are struggling more than you, is inherently *bad*. That's exactly how racism and sexism operate. Racism is not about running around screaming "I hate Black people." It's about putting up with the appalling treatment of other people because you think it'll help YOU, personally, get ahead.

My grandmother was a civil rights activist in the 1950s in Florida. She mentioned often that the white people who voted, again and again, for segregationist candidates did not feel what you'd describe as "hatred" against black people. Some of them felt that they cared deeply about the black people they knew. They would describe themselves as kind people who would never hurt a fly. But they were perfectly willing to countenance the oppression of black people if they could feel economically and culturally secure. And being willing to do that is, by definition, racist.

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 10:51:34 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:48:36 GMT -5 acuore said:

Charming. 

I'm not great at dealing with nazi apologists, sorry.

Have you considered canvassing? I bet you’de be awesome at persuading people with view different from yours. Heck, a million people like you and we’d win allll the elections. 

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:45:13 GMT -5 meganew said:

WTF is happening that two days after the election were suppose to be fretting over the poor feelings of Trump voters and walking on egg shells so they don’t feel shame over their vote. Fuck outta here. I’m not saying that the dems should campaign on this (obviously- and I said it explicitly up thread) but me, as an individual not representing the campaign or Democratic Party as a whole, can absolutely say FUCK THEM.

I’m not sure who is saying that. I thought the intent of this thread was to try to address about Dems can win in the future/what went wrong here. I mean, they couldn’t even beat an illiterate felon. But I guess the answer is just to blame it on all the voters.

Again, didn’t vote for him and don’t give a fuck about people’s feelings.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 10:53:41 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:51:34 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

I'm not great at dealing with nazi apologists, sorry.

Have you considered canvassing? I bet you’de be awesome at persuading people with view different from yours. Heck, a million people like you and we’d win allll the elections. 

keep it up. I see you.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:54:24 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:53:41 GMT -5 acuore said:

Have you considered canvassing? I bet you’de be awesome at persuading people with view different from yours. Heck, a million people like you and we’d win allll the elections. 

keep it up. I see you.

Nice threat. Gross.

[sonrisa]

Nov 7, 2024 10:53:41 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:51:34 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

I'm not great at dealing with nazi apologists, sorry.

Have you considered canvassing? I bet you’de be awesome at persuading people with view different from yours. Heck, a million people like you and we’d win allll the elections. 

we don’t need to persuade the fuck heads. We need to get EVERYONE ELSE out to vote. The fuckheads can take care of themselves.

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 10:55:25 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:53:41 GMT -5 acuore said:

Have you considered canvassing? I bet you’de be awesome at persuading people with view different from yours. Heck, a million people like you and we’d win allll the elections. 

we don’t need to persuade the fuck heads. We need to get everyone else out to vote. The fuckheads can take care of themselves.

How’d that work out for you this time? 

[meganew]

Nov 7, 2024 10:53:46 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:45:13 GMT -5 meganew said:

WTF is happening that two days after the election were suppose to be fretting over the poor feelings of Trump voters and walking on egg shells so they don’t feel shame over their vote. Fuck outta here. I’m not saying that the dems should campaign on this (obviously- and I said it explicitly up thread) but me, as an individual not representing the campaign or Democratic Party as a whole, can absolutely say FUCK THEM.

I’m not sure who is saying that. I thought the intent of this thread was to try to address about Dems can win in the future/what went wrong here. I mean, they couldn’t even beat an illiterate felon. But I guess the answer is just to blame it on all the voters.

Again, didn’t vote for him and don’t give a fuck about people’s feelings.

Yeah, and we’re disagreeing on how to do that. You want us to “make connections” or bridges or whatever, I don’t think that will work.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:56:22 GMT -5 meganew said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:53:46 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

I’m not sure who is saying that. I thought the intent of this thread was to try to address about Dems can win in the future/what went wrong here. I mean, they couldn’t even beat an illiterate felon. But I guess the answer is just to blame it on all the voters.

Again, didn’t vote for him and don’t give a fuck about people’s feelings.

Yeah, and we’re disagreeing on how to do that. You want us to “make connections” or bridges or whatever, I don’t think that will work.

I get it. I’m as frustrated as many about this but goddamnit y’all have to do something different or you’ll never be able to enact policy. So I guess it is what it is.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 10:55:00 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:54:24 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

keep it up. I see you.

Nice threat. Gross.

threat?? aca-scuse me?

I'm done going back and forth with people who want to make excuses for racism. that makes me think you are ok with it, and THAT is what I see.

[meganew]

Nov 7, 2024 10:56:10 GMT -5 acuore said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:55:25 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

we don’t need to persuade the fuck heads. We need to get everyone else out to vote. The fuckheads can take care of themselves.

How’d that work out for you this time? 

They didn’t try that this time! They tried to appeal to republican voters- look, the Cheneys are voting for us! Look, we’re all for fracking! Look, we won’t speak out about Palestine! It didn’t work! They don’t care. They’re voting R and we need to stop pretending they’ll do anything but that.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 7, 2024 8:37:52 GMT -5 sakoro said:

Nov 7, 2024 8:15:12 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

The other thought that occurred to me as I was brushing my teeth this morning is how Ds need to do something with the power they are given.

I’m an average person. Cognitively, I know this administration was working to halt and lower inflation. But I don’t really know how that works. I trust that they’re doing it, but there was no flashy, “We’re making these greedy mfers stop raising prices” talk. I’ve seen the articles - I know grocery execs and companies were making money hand over fist. Nobody stopped it, or at least in a way that I could see and understand.

I live in a district where a lot of latinos voted for Trump for the first time. They aren’t wearing red hats or putting Trump flags on their pickup trucks, so I don’t think they have the cultural identification that many white men had in 2016. However, they didn’t feel like Biden is on their side with increased housing costs, grocery costs, higher electricity prices, cancelation of homeowners insurance policies and felt the biggest impact from COVID closures (as small business owners and working in the trades). So millions ignored the insulting things he said about Mexicans being rapists and voted (for what they believe to be) in their economic interest.

Dems are overly reliant on identity politics and too timid in pushing back on corporate interests - such as grocery companies— probably because that’s who funds campaigns.

None of Trump’s policies are going to solve any of these problems- particularly the 20% tariff and tax cuts for the rich.

I disagree with the first part--I think Republicans are equally reliant on identity politics, since "non-citizens don't belong here" is literally half their message. Republicans rely heavily on white male identity politics, as we've just seen. But I agree with the second part here--I DO really think Dems need to move away from being cozy with corporations. Why are we caping for Mark Cuban while trying to paint Trump as an out-of-touch rich guy? We need more economic populism--it's always popular and it's only going to get more popular as things keep falling apart.

[wise_rita]

I'm starting to smell some down low Trump votes up in here, conveniently and strangely arriving immediately after the election.

[lilac05]

I think another thing we did this year was really lean into celebrity endorsements and appearances. While I think that effectively energizes those who are involved, and makes them feel good because their views align with people they like, I don’t think it does much to attract new voters.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:57:34 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:55:00 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nice threat. Gross.

threat?? aca-scuse me?

I'm done going back and forth with people who want to make excuses for racism. that makes me think you are ok with it, and THAT is what I see.

I don’t give a fuck what you think of me because I refuse to call every single one of the Americans (of all races, genders, ages, etc.) who voted for him racist, misogynist, and fascist. That’s fine.

[stuffandthings]

I think we need to stop trying so hard to get the old-school Republicans. They got sidelined in the GOP for a reason--their economic policies are still bullshit. I thought campaigning with Cheney was a mistake and I still think that.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 10:59:09 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm starting to smell some down low Trump votes up in here, conveniently and strangely arriving immediately after the election.

Oh fuck off. Never voted for him, never would, and I’ve posted here a long time.

[pisces]

Nov 7, 2024 10:59:09 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm starting to smell some down low Trump votes up in here, conveniently and strangely arriving immediately after the election.

Lol I would never vote for him. It's frustration, disappointment, anger talking. And what could have been done different.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 11:00:21 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:57:34 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

threat?? aca-scuse me?

I'm done going back and forth with people who want to make excuses for racism. that makes me think you are ok with it, and THAT is what I see.

I don’t give a fuck what you think of me because I refuse to call every single one of the Americans (of all races, genders, ages, etc.) who voted for him racist, misogynist, and fascist. That’s fine.

I don't give a fuck what you think of me either. people who suck Trump supporters' boots aren't real people to me. enjoy the next four years! and fuck off.

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 10:59:09 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm starting to smell some down low Trump votes up in here, conveniently and strangely arriving immediately after the election.

Oh, for God’s sake. Assuming you are referencing me, for one, I registered in 2012. I very rarely post, but as someone who has been active in local Democratic politics for years, the issue of what the Dems can do to actually win elections (kind of the point of this thread, I though) is something I care about enough to post. 

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 11:02:30 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:00:21 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

I don’t give a fuck what you think of me because I refuse to call every single one of the Americans (of all races, genders, ages, etc.) who voted for him racist, misogynist, and fascist. That’s fine.

I don't give a fuck what you think of me either. people who suck Trump supporters' boots aren't real people to me. enjoy the next four years! and fuck off.

You too! Seems like it’s all going great for you.

[abs]

I guess the main thing is I disagree that we can’t get voters back. I think we can because I’ve seen it. I know several people that proudly voted for Kamala Harris after voting for Trump twice. DH was able to convince his best friend that Trump will be horrible for the economy and he did vote for Harris. Reaching out can work. Not to everyone and some people are lost forever. I’m tired of losing though and this time I’m going things different. I recognize that isn’t for everyone though and nor should it be. As others said different jobs for different people.

And to be abundantly clear I think Kamala Harris is the most qualified candidate I’ve seen. In all the things that went wrong it’s nothing she did. I’m beyond sad and @@telling DD she lost is one of the worst things I’ve had to say.