Soul-Searching, Recriminations Within Democratic Party

[dirtyred]

Nov 7, 2024 10:57:53 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 7, 2024 8:37:52 GMT -5 sakoro said:

I disagree with the first part--I think Republicans are equally reliant on identity politics, since "non-citizens don't belong here" is literally half their message. Republicans rely heavily on white male identity politics, as we've just seen. But I agree with the second part here--I DO really think Dems need to move away from being cozy with corporations. Why are we caping for Mark Cuban while trying to paint Trump as an out-of-touch rich guy? We need more economic populism--it's always popular and it's only going to get more popular as things keep falling apart.

Illegal immigration is the main thing the people that I know that voted for Trump speak about.  They don't like the "illegals" getting housing and food assistance while they're struggling.  They say the Biden administration (and especially Kamala) did squat about it, seemed to care more for them than U.S. citizens.

And I do realize that they're only talking about brown immigrants.

[hermione]

I am never going to get over the fact that the majority of this country voted for a rapist, racist, sexist, homophobe, felon to be leader of the free world. At the most basic level, beyond policy or anything else, he is those things. Regardless of the cost of milk or gas or anything else, he is those things. You don't have to be smart, educated or politically savvy to know he is those things.

So I don't think trying to pretend to have 20/20 hindsight on a campaign most people were impressed with a day before the election will fix anything. This is who we are as a nation.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 11:10:33 GMT -5 hermione said:

I am never going to get over the fact that the majority of this country voted for a rapist, racist, sexist, homophobe, felon to be leader of the free world. At the most basic level, beyond policy or anything else, he is those things. Regardless of the cost of milk or gas or anything else, he is those things. You don't have to be smart, educated or politically savvy to know he is those things.

So I don't think trying to pretend having 20/20 hindsight on a campaign most people were impressed with a day before the election will fix anything. This is who we are as a nation.

exactly. people here were praising her campaign up till the end.

[cville]

Nov 7, 2024 10:57:38 GMT -5 meganew said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:56:10 GMT -5 acuore said:

How’d that work out for you this time? 

They didn’t try that this time! They tried to appeal to republican voters- look, the Cheneys are voting for us! Look, we’re all for fracking! Look, we won’t speak out about Palestine! It didn’t work! They don’t care. They’re voting R and we need to stop pretending they’ll do anything but that.

And it didn't work because people were fear-mongered, don't understand economic policy, and want someone to blame for increased costs in consumer goods and staples.

I'm lucky. I never have to make a Sophie's choice about anything my family needs. Hell, about anything my family WANTS. Canvassing was eye opening. I canvassed in my county, and the people I was talking to who live 3 miles from my house had very very different concerns. They don't care about fascism because it's abstract, but the fact that there's 3 and 4 generations living in a 2 bedroom because rent is too expensive and social security/medicare won't cover a decent nursing home for grandma is very very concrete. Some of them came out anyway for Kamala. Some voted for that asshole because he told them it was Kamala's fault and used small words and repeated it so often it felt like truth. Most just stayed home because they voted for Biden and things didn't get better, but they think the asshole is an asshole.

I don't know if I think in 100 days not hanging out with Liz Cheney would've made much of a difference, to tell you the truth. We'd lost the war for those low propensity and youth votes before the first battle even began. The rightward shift was near universal across the country in low and middle income brackets--that's not because people were unconcerned about foreign policy or J6. It's because they don't care.

The Liz Cheney of it all was an effort to find alternative voters, IMO. And it worked in some areas. My precinct went 87% for Hillary, 88% for Biden, and 91% for Kamala. It just didn't work where it mattered most.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 7, 2024 11:05:59 GMT -5 dirtyred said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:57:53 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

I disagree with the first part--I think Republicans are equally reliant on identity politics, since "non-citizens don't belong here" is literally half their message. Republicans rely heavily on white male identity politics, as we've just seen. But I agree with the second part here--I DO really think Dems need to move away from being cozy with corporations. Why are we caping for Mark Cuban while trying to paint Trump as an out-of-touch rich guy? We need more economic populism--it's always popular and it's only going to get more popular as things keep falling apart.

Illegal immigration is the main thing the people that I know that voted for Trump speak about.  They don't like the "illegals" getting housing and food assistance while they're struggling.  They say the Biden administration (and especially Kamala) did squat about it, seemed to care more for them than U.S. citizens.

And I do realize that they're only talking about brown immigrants.

See, that's what I mean when I say I don't understand the path to persuasion here. Undocumented people are not getting housing or food assistance. They're ineligible for all federal and most state programs. They're paying more in taxes than they get. It's factually inaccurate. I run a nonprofit that sponsors legal immigrants to the US, and I can promise everyone, no one is getting free stuff except corporations and billionaires.

But beyond that, I don't understand what people think the difference is between a person who was born a citizen and a person who paid their entire life savings so a coyote could smuggle them into Arizona and they could escape a Venezuelan death squad. Why does the first person inherently deserve food and shelter and the second one doesn't?

How do we counter these ideas? Telling people the facts doesn't work. Telling people they're wrong doesn't work. Explaining to people that they should care about other people regardless of whether they were born here or had to sneak across the border to keep their kids from being murdered doesn't work. Appealing to their better natures doesn't work. This is why we're divided--it's not a question of "priorities," it's a question of the fundamental understanding of reality and right and wrong.

[heat40]

I live in a red state, in a county that has been going red for years and has finally gotten there this time around. I have to live in this. No I can’t just get up and move. This is my home. And to be honest, when I lived in a blue state, I experienced more discrimination than I have here. So moving doesn’t magically help everyone. I understand the culture here, even if we vote differently, this is my culture these are my people. So yes, I am more than willing to try to get some of them back to my side.not everyone is comfortable doing that. I get it. So don’t. Go find something you are comfortable doing. But I’m not going to be shamed for trying.

[laladypoet]

ok quick question to the trump apologists--who amongst you is married to a trumper?

[dirtyred]

Nov 7, 2024 11:15:50 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:05:59 GMT -5 dirtyred said:

Illegal immigration is the main thing the people that I know that voted for Trump speak about.  They don't like the "illegals" getting housing and food assistance while they're struggling.  They say the Biden administration (and especially Kamala) did squat about it, seemed to care more for them than U.S. citizens.

And I do realize that they're only talking about brown immigrants.

See, that's what I mean. Undocumented people are not getting housing or food assistance. They're ineligible for all federal and most state programs. They're paying more in taxes than they get. It's factually inaccurate. I run a nonprofit that sponsors legal immigrants to the US, and I can promise everyone, no one is getting free stuff except corporations and billionaires.

But beyond that, I don't understand what people think the difference is between a person who was born a citizen and a person who paid their entire life savings so a coyote could smuggle them into Arizona and they could escape a Venezuelan death squad. Why does the first person inherently deserve food and shelter and the second one doesn't?

How do we counter these ideas? Telling people the facts doesn't work. Telling people they're wrong doesn't work. Explaining to people that they should care about other people regardless of whether they were born here or had to sneak across the border to keep their kids from being murdered doesn't work. Appealing to their better natures doesn't work. This is why we're divided--it's not a question of "priorities," it's a question of the fundamental understanding of reality and right and wrong.

I don't know if we can.  People believe what they want to believe, facts be damned.

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 11:17:27 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

ok quick question to the trump apologists--who amongst you is married to a trumper?

Not me. My husband voted straight-ticket Dem. 

(And I am not a “Trump apologist.”)

[calamity]

heat40, for what it's worth I don't think anyone is shaming you for trying. It's a noble act.

The rest of us are just flailing and screaming into the void. I've given up on the Trump supporters in my life. I tried. I explained. They don't care about my rights. And really beyond my anger is just hurt.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 11:17:27 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

ok quick question to the trump apologists--who amongst you is married to a trumper?

Well, I know I’m “not a real person” to you, but my H is a pretty vocal democrat.

Oh, but yea I forgot, to have any opinion other than yours means I must be a dumb bitch married to an uneducated Trumper.



Also not a “Trump apologist” but since you’re the authority on labeling people - whatever.

[stuffandthings]

Nov 7, 2024 11:18:57 GMT -5 dirtyred said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:15:50 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

See, that's what I mean. Undocumented people are not getting housing or food assistance. They're ineligible for all federal and most state programs. They're paying more in taxes than they get. It's factually inaccurate. I run a nonprofit that sponsors legal immigrants to the US, and I can promise everyone, no one is getting free stuff except corporations and billionaires.

But beyond that, I don't understand what people think the difference is between a person who was born a citizen and a person who paid their entire life savings so a coyote could smuggle them into Arizona and they could escape a Venezuelan death squad. Why does the first person inherently deserve food and shelter and the second one doesn't?

How do we counter these ideas? Telling people the facts doesn't work. Telling people they're wrong doesn't work. Explaining to people that they should care about other people regardless of whether they were born here or had to sneak across the border to keep their kids from being murdered doesn't work. Appealing to their better natures doesn't work. This is why we're divided--it's not a question of "priorities," it's a question of the fundamental understanding of reality and right and wrong.

I don't know if we can.  People believe what they want to believe, facts be damned.

I did the IB diploma in high school and for IB you have to take a class called Theory of Knowledge that is entirely about how people determine what is real/fake, true/false, right/wrong, etc. I think it should be mandatory everywhere in the US. As part of the class, you are forced to consider all available evidence for an issue and break down WHY you think the way you think. 

www.ibo.org/programmes/diploma-programme/curriculum/dp-core/theory-of-knowledge/

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 11:21:33 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:17:27 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

ok quick question to the trump apologists--who amongst you is married to a trumper?

Well, I know I’m “not a real person” to you, but my H is a pretty vocal democrat.

Oh, but yea I forgot, to have any opinion other than yours means I must be a dumb bitch married to an uneducated Trumper.



Also not a “Trump apologist” but since you’re the authority on labeling people - whatever.

I'm glad you're catching on

[lilac05]

Nov 7, 2024 11:11:54 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:10:33 GMT -5 hermione said:

I am never going to get over the fact that the majority of this country voted for a rapist, racist, sexist, homophobe, felon to be leader of the free world. At the most basic level, beyond policy or anything else, he is those things. Regardless of the cost of milk or gas or anything else, he is those things. You don't have to be smart, educated or politically savvy to know he is those things.

So I don't think trying to pretend having 20/20 hindsight on a campaign most people were impressed with a day before the election will fix anything. This is who we are as a nation.

exactly. people here were praising her campaign up till the end.

I think you can praise her campaign and only see in hindsight that it didn’t hit the right mark. I think her campaign was EXTREMELY successful at getting the people supporting her excited to vote for her. But it missed the mark on either getting them to spread the excitement to others or energize those who were not in her base to vote. In hindsight, I think they put a lot of emphasis on how she’s NOT Trump and how he’s awful and not enough on why she would be amazing. Too many people commented on “not knowing her policies other than anti-Trump” for us to disregard them. (*I* know she talked about her policies…but apparently not enough for others to know.)

I think rather than seeing this as tearing her or her campaign down, it’s a discussion of “OK…all of that joy and hope and happiness was not enough to beat a racist, rapist felon…so we have to change SOMETHING.” She tried something different. It felt really, really good…but it ultimately wasn’t successful.

[sequins]

IDK guys, the posters here have made clear many times that they neither voted for Trump nor support his policies. I understand that we are all incredibly angry and frustrated but maybe we can engage without playing gotcha. *ducks*

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 11:22:19 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:21:33 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Well, I know I’m “not a real person” to you, but my H is a pretty vocal democrat.

Oh, but yea I forgot, to have any opinion other than yours means I must be a dumb bitch married to an uneducated Trumper.



Also not a “Trump apologist” but since you’re the authority on labeling people - whatever.

I'm glad you're catching on

Your attitude is so self-defeating. People like you drive away voters and persuadable people. 

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 11:24:03 GMT -5 sequins said:

IDK guys, the posters here have made clear many times that they neither voted for Trump nor support his policies. I understand that we are all incredibly angry and frustrated but maybe we can engage without playing gotcha. *ducks*

*geese*

[sequins]

Nov 7, 2024 11:24:31 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:24:03 GMT -5 sequins said:

IDK guys, the posters here have made clear many times that they neither voted for Trump nor support his policies. I understand that we are all incredibly angry and frustrated but maybe we can engage without playing gotcha. *ducks*

*geese*

First laugh in two days. Thanks I appreciate it. 

[pisces]

Dems needs to get their shit together. We haven't lost the popular vote in the last 2 presidential elections and did this time. Why? It's not because of the people running. It's because of policies and messaging. So, there's work to be done. Calling people names and writing them off further alienates people and makes this country worse.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 11:31:19 GMT -5 pisces said:

Dems needs to get their shit together. We haven't lost the popular vote in the last 2 presidential elections and did this time. Why? It's not because of the people running. It's because of policies and messaging. So, there's work to be done. Calling people names and writing them off further alienates people and makes this country worse.

Kamala was a much better candidate and ran a much better campaign than Hillary. Still, less people showed up for her.

Trump only lost once, to a man.

connect the dots.

[sonrisa]

The Republicans didn’t do any of this soul searching when they lost. They doubled down on their core values of Jan 6, lies and hatred and mobilized the assholes.

If we did the same - doubled down on our core values and outreach - we can move forward without becoming what we oppose.

[underwaterrhymes]

Nov 7, 2024 11:35:44 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:31:19 GMT -5 pisces said:

Dems needs to get their shit together. We haven't lost the popular vote in the last 2 presidential elections and did this time. Why? It's not because of the people running. It's because of policies and messaging. So, there's work to be done. Calling people names and writing them off further alienates people and makes this country worse.

Kamala was a much better candidate and ran a much better campaign than Hillary. Still, less people showed up for her.

Trump only lost once, to a man.

connect the dots.

Thanks to Nick Fuentes, “your body, our choice” is trending on social media. While certainly not everyone who voted for Trump would support this messaging, I think that says a lot about the GOP that they are not decrying it.

[hermione]

Nov 7, 2024 11:23:18 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:11:54 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

exactly. people here were praising her campaign up till the end.

I think you can praise her campaign and only see in hindsight that it didn’t hit the right mark. I think her campaign was EXTREMELY successful at getting the people supporting her excited to vote for her. But it missed the mark on either getting them to spread the excitement to others or energize those who were not in her base to vote. In hindsight, I think they put a lot of emphasis on how she’s NOT Trump and how he’s awful and not enough on why she would be amazing. Too many people commented on “not knowing her policies other than anti-Trump” for us to disregard them. (*I* know she talked about her policies…but apparently not enough for others to know.)

I think rather than seeing this as tearing her or her campaign down, it’s a discussion of “OK…all of that joy and hope and happiness was not enough to beat a racist, rapist felon…so we have to change SOMETHING.” She tried something different. It felt really, really good…but it ultimately wasn’t successful.

Yes, I understand the point. Mine is that people are willing to vote for a rapist, racist, sexist, homophobe, felon, will do so regardless. There is no magic bullet - certainly not talking about policy more. Those are excuses people use to justify supporting a man who is all of those terrible things. If she talked about policy more they would say it's too much. If they focused on how amazing she is, they'd call her an uppity bitch. Racist is gonna racist. Sexist is gonna sexist. Homophobe is gonna homophobe. And a combination of all those things is gonna rule our country for at least 4 years. 

What's the answer? I have no idea. And, sadly, there may not be one. America has always been a "great experiment" and the fact of the matter is that a lot of experiments fail.

[pisces]

Nov 7, 2024 11:35:44 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:31:19 GMT -5 pisces said:

Dems needs to get their shit together. We haven't lost the popular vote in the last 2 presidential elections and did this time. Why? It's not because of the people running. It's because of policies and messaging. So, there's work to be done. Calling people names and writing them off further alienates people and makes this country worse.

Kamala was a much better candidate and ran a much better campaign than Hillary. Still, less people showed up for her.

Trump only lost once, to a man.

connect the dots.

People associate Kamala with the current admin which was a detriment to her campaign. 

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 11:35:44 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:31:19 GMT -5 pisces said:

Dems needs to get their shit together. We haven't lost the popular vote in the last 2 presidential elections and did this time. Why? It's not because of the people running. It's because of policies and messaging. So, there's work to be done. Calling people names and writing them off further alienates people and makes this country worse.

Kamala was a much better candidate and ran a much better campaign than Hillary. Still, less people showed up for her.

Trump only lost once, to a man.

connect the dots.

Fewer people. Fewer people showed up. Hope Dems can figure out why one day.

[wildrice]

Oof. This thread is already going off the rails.

I think Trump's base are all hardcore racists, misogynists, terrible people. Especially when they are white, fuck them all, for real. I want nothing to do with them.

I think it's also true that we lost some Biden voters this time around, and that some of those people were not white. Many of those people were women. I think we need to figure out why a lot of independents and other swing voters did not resonate with the democratic message and did not vote in what would appear to be their own best interests. Something isn't working here.

We don't need to befriend people who love Trump - I think they are too far gone. But WTF happened to the people in the middle. In my own very blue community, I saw a lot of people I would not have expected to vote for Trump doing so. I think some of them can probably be democratic voters in the future if we can figure out how to get information to them that hits on THEIR priorities. I'm just a white woman sitting here, but it appears to me that some people can live with racism against their own communities easier than living without food or housing or other economic issues that are more dire for them right now. Despite those things being inextricably linked, Trump is telling them that their day to day ability to feed their kids and keep a roof over their heads is going to be better for them with his administration, even if he calls them names or threatens to deport people who look like them. That's the message that they heard, and that's what got them to the polls. IMO, this indicates that the democratic party is leaving them behind. We need to do better.

ETA: and I'll add that I actually think it's patronizing and somewhat dehumanizing to say that people have voted against their own best interests - who am I to say what's best for them? They have made a decision based on their own evaluation of the message they received vs their own priorities, which are shaped by their own experiences. We have to respect that, not belittle it. I do not think that's the same thing as accepting it as an unchangeable thing, though - we can work to shape our policies and messages to better serve their needs if we want them to vote with us in the future. Again, I'm talking about minorities and women - without whom Trump could not have won this election. I have been gobsmacked by the fact that any woman or any minority voted for him - which I am coming to realize makes me part of the problem.

[Velar Fricative]

Nov 7, 2024 10:34:47 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:32:04 GMT -5 pisces said:

IMO, people don't see dems as trustworthy because of the 'left leaning' media.

That doesn’t answer the question and the idea that the media is overall left-leaning is a joke.

So, again. The GOP has not made a habit of reaching across the aisle. Why on earth do we need to make concessions on human rights? FUCK that. I will not

I’m still behind but why do you believe they didn’t reach across the aisle? Every demographic shift towards them is a reflection of them reaching across the aisle. Obviously, we are grossed out by how they did it (like by appealing to the feeling of machismo), but instead of giving up on demographic groups to the Ds like we expected they’d do after the Obama years, they hustled. And they were rewarded. We may be grossed out by their tactics and don’t have to replicate them, but we certainly need to play the long game they’ve been so good at doing.

[wise_rita]

Nov 7, 2024 11:31:19 GMT -5 pisces said:

Dems needs to get their shit together. We haven't lost the popular vote in the last 2 presidential elections and did this time. Why? It's not because of the people running. It's because of policies and messaging. So, there's work to be done. Calling people names and writing them off further alienates people and makes this country worse.

And what policies need amending, exactly?

Somebody who thinks it's okay to make a fun of the disabled or let me bleed out in a parking lot NEEDS to be alienated and told they're a piece of shit.

That might not win elections but it sure as hell doesn't make this country worse. Mocking the disabled and letting women bleed out in parking lots makes this country worse!

[acuore]

Nov 7, 2024 11:39:43 GMT -5 pisces said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:35:44 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Kamala was a much better candidate and ran a much better campaign than Hillary. Still, less people showed up for her.

Trump only lost once, to a man.

connect the dots.

People associate Kamala with the current admin which was a detriment to her campaign. 

Inflation. I’m not sure there’s any Dem candidate that could have won this cycle, with the possible exception of a generational talent like Obama, and then only if he/she had massively separated themself from the current Administration. One thing that kills me about this outcome is that Trump will now get to claim the credit for Biden’s objectively good economy. 

[underwaterrhymes]

Nov 7, 2024 11:41:58 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:34:47 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

That doesn’t answer the question and the idea that the media is overall left-leaning is a joke.

So, again. The GOP has not made a habit of reaching across the aisle. Why on earth do we need to make concessions on human rights? FUCK that. I will not

I’m still behind but why do you believe they didn’t reach across the aisle? Every demographic shift towards them is a reflection of them reaching across the aisle. Obviously, we are grossed out by how they did it (like by appealing to the feeling of machismo), but instead of giving up on demographic groups to the Ds like we expected they’d do after the Obama years, they hustled. And they were rewarded. We may be grossed out by their tactics and don’t have to replicate them, but we certainly need to play the long game they’ve been so good at doing.

You think the GOP reached out to the Democrats? I haven’t seen that at all. (Excluding, of course, the support the Harris campaign got, they haven’t done anything collaborative from a policy perspective.)