Soul-Searching, Recriminations Within Democratic Party

[wise_rita]

Also I will not be expending one more once of energy to explain why I will not play mental gymnastics to "encourage communication" or "reach across the aisle" to people who wish, or at a bare minimum are willing to overlook, death and destruction on half of the American population.

FUCK. THEM.

[sonrisa]

Nov 7, 2024 14:15:38 GMT -5 mcppalmbeach said:

I feel some concerns here when I see posters touting … “I have no red acquaintances” because what that tells me is that you probably are not around the working class people who really are the majority of people voting.

the idea that all working class people are pro-Trump doesn’t reflect reality.

I spent last night around a table of grieving, scared parents, a group more racially diverse than most states in this country, plenty of whom have needed a local food pantry to keep their families fed. Most LGBTQ people aren’t rich and aren’t white. Everyone who works an hourly wage job around me is blue - or more likely anti capitalist entirely.

The Trump supporters I see (and actively avoid) are all finance and tech elites whose kids follow Andrew Tate.

But sure, I’m elitist for not engaging with the guy with a yacht who tells his kid mine isn’t fully human.

[lilafowler]

Nov 7, 2024 14:36:44 GMT -5 themoneytree said:

If you want to know why the dems aren’t winning just look at this thread. It’s ridiculous.
Meanwhile actual people’s lives are at stake here, but no one can give an opinion that is even slightly different without being called racist or being accused of being married to a Trump supporter. There is no discussion. No introspection.

You think you’re helping but you’re not.


Republicans are not going to reach across the aisle because they will immediately be labeled as racist, homophobic, bigots. It doesn’t encourage communication and it’s counter productive.

we don’t need republicans to tear us down. Dems tear each other down without help from anyone else. Why?

But they are racist, homophobic bigots?  If they weren't they wouldn't have voted for Trump.

[sonrisa]

For all my anger now - I *was* reaching out and trying to make those connections /humanize the risks up through last week. I know soooo many people who were.

And that did fuck all to move the needle.

So don’t tell me to make nice today when I’ve seen what nice gets us.

Hate won.

I’m learning from them and bringing my anger to the table.

[themoneytree]

Nov 7, 2024 17:08:53 GMT -5 lilafowler said:

Nov 7, 2024 14:36:44 GMT -5 themoneytree said:

If you want to know why the dems aren’t winning just look at this thread. It’s ridiculous.
Meanwhile actual people’s lives are at stake here, but no one can give an opinion that is even slightly different without being called racist or being accused of being married to a Trump supporter. There is no discussion. No introspection.

You think you’re helping but you’re not.


Republicans are not going to reach across the aisle because they will immediately be labeled as racist, homophobic, bigots. It doesn’t encourage communication and it’s counter productive.

we don’t need republicans to tear us down. Dems tear each other down without help from anyone else. Why?

But they are racist, homophobic bigots?  If they weren't they wouldn't have voted for Trump.

A lot of them, sure. A lot of them just don’t give a shit what happens to anyone else. I’m not speaking for people who voted for T. I don’t know how they can look at themselves in the mirror and a lot of them are very pleased with this outcome.
But there are a lot of people who didn’t vote for president for whatever reason. Even dems. I would like to actually win some elections, not just lash out against other dems.

[tamarindy]

The Biden-Harris admin is partially responsible for an ongoing genocide. I voted for Harris in this election. By your rationale does that make me a supporter of genocide?

ETA - and is that worse or better than a racist/misogynist/fascist (as we now know ALL Trump voters are)?

[sonrisa]

Nov 7, 2024 17:30:04 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

The Biden-Harris admin is partially responsible for an ongoing genocide. I voted for Harris in this election. By your rationale does that make me a supporter of genocide?

If you are a citizen, this is on our name like so much awful shit before it. This isn’t the first genocide our country has enabled during my life time.

There is no reason to think Trump will be better on genocide. He has explicitly said Netanyahu can do what he wants. If he had taken a different stance - then yes, a vote for Harris could support the genocide.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 17:41:28 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Nov 7, 2024 17:30:04 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

The Biden-Harris admin is partially responsible for an ongoing genocide. I voted for Harris in this election. By your rationale does that make me a supporter of genocide?

If you are a citizen, this is on our name like so much awful shit before it. This isn’t the first genocide our country has enabled during my life time.

There is no reason to think Trump will be better on genocide. He has explicitly said Netanyahu can do what he wants. If he had taken a different stance - then yes, a vote for Harris would support the genocide.

I am anti death penalty, anti genocide and anti torture. It’s why I didn’t apply to work for the foreign service. Then I’d have to actively publicly back US policy.

So Trump’s position negates the fact that the Biden/Harris administration is enabling a genocide. Ok. So I’m good/Trump voters bad. Got it.

[sonrisa]

Nov 7, 2024 17:45:21 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 17:41:28 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

If you are a citizen, this is on our name like so much awful shit before it. This isn’t the first genocide our country has enabled during my life time.

There is no reason to think Trump will be better on genocide. He has explicitly said Netanyahu can do what he wants. If he had taken a different stance - then yes, a vote for Harris would support the genocide.

I am anti death penalty, anti genocide and anti torture. It’s why I didn’t apply to work for the foreign service. Then I’d have to actively publicly back US policy.

So Trump’s position negates the fact that the Biden/Harris administration is enabling a genocide. Ok. So I’m good/Trump voters bad. Got it.

I don’t know why I bothered.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 17:56:40 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Nov 7, 2024 17:45:21 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

So Trump’s position negates the fact that the Biden/Harris administration is enabling a genocide. Ok. So I’m good/Trump voters bad. Got it.

I don’t know why I bothered.

Imagine in the year of our lord 2024 arguing that trump supporters arent racist. Couldnt be me.

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 17:56:40 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Nov 7, 2024 17:45:21 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

So Trump’s position negates the fact that the Biden/Harris administration is enabling a genocide. Ok. So I’m good/Trump voters bad. Got it.

I don’t know why I bothered.

I’m trying to point out the ridiculousness of demonizing others when, by the same rationale, we all voted for someone backing genocide. The self-righteousness is just off the chart. And it’s a factor in the Dems loss.

[themoneytree]

Nov 7, 2024 17:56:40 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Nov 7, 2024 17:45:21 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

So Trump’s position negates the fact that the Biden/Harris administration is enabling a genocide. Ok. So I’m good/Trump voters bad. Got it.

I don’t know why I bothered.

You can’t see the parallel?
I mean I am not a huge fan of Trump voters right now either. But damn.

[ellipses84]

Nov 7, 2024 14:09:26 GMT -5 glw said:

It's clear to me that the only thing that drives voters is their own money and feelings about "the economy" (even if they don't really know what that means). I think Dems need to be relentless about how R policies don't actually improve the average person's financial situation, and have very clear talking points about what D policies can/will do. I don't even care if we lie about it. R's lie constantly and blame Biden for things a president has zero control over. So from here on out: every single thing involving inflation, consumer pricing, insurance premiums, you name it, is Trump's fault-- shout it.

In hindsight it probably would have been better for 🍊 to win 2020. Then all the blame of the shit economy, pandemic and Roe V Wade would be on him and people would be ready for a change. We might be in worse shape now, but they wouldn’t have had 4 years to hatch their evil plans to roll out now. I don’t like the timeline we are on 😭

[wise_rita]

The Harris genocide argument doesn't hold water because Trump will be no better! Sure, say it about her all you want but the same is true for him.

America is united in their terribleness on this front.

I do want to hear more about the good people in both sides, though. For my spreadsheet.

[dontlook]

Nov 7, 2024 18:05:09 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Nov 7, 2024 17:56:40 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

I don’t know why I bothered.

Imagine in the year of our lord 2024 arguing that trump supporters arent racist. Couldnt be me.

3/10 black men under 45 voted for Trump. I’m going to need you to leave space that the Trump umbrella is bigger than just racist and bigots. They are certainly there in large quantities. But he spoke to a wider range of people and I personally want to understand that.

[themoneytree]

Nov 7, 2024 18:17:17 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

The Harris genocide argument doesn't hold water because Trump will be no better! Sure, say it about her all you want but the same is true for him.

America is united in their terribleness on this front.

I do want to hear more about the good people in both sides, though. For my spreadsheet.

Ah yes. The usual shut the conversation down methods. Great idea.


Who would you have voted for had Trump been pro Palestine in this election?

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 18:17:17 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

The Harris genocide argument doesn't hold water because Trump will be no better! Sure, say it about her all you want but the same is true for him.

America is united in their terribleness on this front.

I do want to hear more about the good people in both sides, though. For my spreadsheet.

It’s some insane mental gymnastics to say that every single Trump voter is racist/misogynist/fascist (especially the minorities who voted for him) but Harris voters arent at all genocide backers because … Trump would be worse. Are we or are we not responsible for the candidate we vote for? Or does that just work in one direction?

ETA - minority numbers weren’t “huge” correction

[sonrisa]

Nov 7, 2024 18:08:44 GMT -5 themoneytree said:

Nov 7, 2024 17:56:40 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

I don’t know why I bothered.

You can’t see the parallel?
I mean I am not a huge fan of Trump voters right now either. But damn.

you can’t see the difference between something that is general US policy regardless of party and something where the two parties have very different stances?

Your vote can only affect the second.

[anonymous]

Nov 7, 2024 18:08:48 GMT -5 ellipses84 said:

Nov 7, 2024 14:09:26 GMT -5 glw said:

It's clear to me that the only thing that drives voters is their own money and feelings about "the economy" (even if they don't really know what that means). I think Dems need to be relentless about how R policies don't actually improve the average person's financial situation, and have very clear talking points about what D policies can/will do. I don't even care if we lie about it. R's lie constantly and blame Biden for things a president has zero control over. So from here on out: every single thing involving inflation, consumer pricing, insurance premiums, you name it, is Trump's fault-- shout it.

In hindsight it probably would have been better for 🍊 to win 2020. Then all the blame of the shit economy, pandemic and Roe V Wade would be on him and people would be ready for a change. We might be in worse shape now, but they wouldn’t have had 4 years to hatch their evil plans to roll out now. I don’t like the timeline we are on 😭

I have thought this a lot the past 2 days.

[anonymous]

Nov 7, 2024 18:24:33 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 18:17:17 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

The Harris genocide argument doesn't hold water because Trump will be no better! Sure, say it about her all you want but the same is true for him.

America is united in their terribleness on this front.

I do want to hear more about the good people in both sides, though. For my spreadsheet.

It’s some insane mental gymnastics to say that every single Trump voter is racist/misogynist/fascist (especially the minorities who voted for him) but Harris voters arent at all genocide backers because … Trump would be worse. Are we or are we not responsible for the candidate we vote for? Or does that just work in one direction?

ETA - minority numbers weren’t “huge” correction

Kamala is not president and I highly suspect she did not gold a lot of say on the Israel Gaza situation so the comparison is not fair. Also she campaigned saying she would work to achieve a resolution. Trump campaigned saying day 1 he intends to start mass deportations and ginned up outrage over trans people in bathrooms. They are not the same

[sonrisa]

Nov 7, 2024 18:21:08 GMT -5 themoneytree said:

Nov 7, 2024 18:17:17 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

The Harris genocide argument doesn't hold water because Trump will be no better! Sure, say it about her all you want but the same is true for him.

America is united in their terribleness on this front.

I do want to hear more about the good people in both sides, though. For my spreadsheet.

Ah yes. The usual shut the conversation down methods. Great idea.


Who would you have voted for had Trump been pro Palestine in this election?

if Trump had had a strong, convincing and effective plan to end genocide, and Kamala had said what he has, then I would feel very differently about those who voted for him out of that motivation.

But he didn’t.

I personally think a Trump victory means Netanyahu will be emboldened to murder the West Bank as well. That is part of the future pain I am grieving right now.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 18:17:38 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Nov 7, 2024 18:05:09 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

Imagine in the year of our lord 2024 arguing that trump supporters arent racist. Couldnt be me.

3/10 black men under 45 voted for Trump. I’m going to need you to leave space that the Trump umbrella is bigger than just racist and bigots. They are certainly there in large quantities. But he spoke to a wider range of people and I personally want to understand that.

Im not black and that’s not my lane. My lane is white women who showed exactly who they are. Stop trying to polish this fucking turd. Christ. They are openly mocking you btw. Advocating for rape. But yeah.
Royal you. They are mocking all of us.

[laladypoet]

I feel like I took acid. What happened to this board? What t happened to all the listening and learning we all did years ago? Fuck all??

[laladypoet]

YEAH IM REPLYING AGAIN.
Even if you dont think youre defending racists, you are. You are putting the onus of mending fences on marginalized communities who owe literally nothing to anyone. Its a microaggression amd its problematic and its fucking gross.

[dontlook]

Nov 7, 2024 18:24:33 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 18:17:17 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

The Harris genocide argument doesn't hold water because Trump will be no better! Sure, say it about her all you want but the same is true for him.

America is united in their terribleness on this front.

I do want to hear more about the good people in both sides, though. For my spreadsheet.

It’s some insane mental gymnastics to say that every single Trump voter is racist/misogynist/fascist (especially the minorities who voted for him) but Harris voters arent at all genocide backers because … Trump would be worse. Are we or are we not responsible for the candidate we vote for? Or does that just work in one direction?

ETA - minority numbers weren’t “huge” correction

I don’t think they are the same. I do think we are all getting a little hot and this getting off topic and starting to grasp a bit.

In 2016 we learn (maybe for the first time for some of you) that this country is filled with a lot of deplorables. They are here, alive, well, and so excited about the 2024 results. We all agree. Got it! Now, how did Trump get those people PLUS others to hop into the deplorable basket? Why did so many decide to stay home instead of voting? What should the dem party do about the deplorables (ignore in my opinion) and the non-voters (worth some digging). As individuals that are hurt, scared, and sick of being sick I say we don’t have to do shit. You don’t have to extend an olive branch. You don’t have to talk to your neighbor. You don’t have to do any work to figure out his we got here it where we are going next. But the dem party sure as hell better do the work. This country will be in shambles in 4 years. I sure hope we get a chance to vote for something better.

[Patsy Baloney]

This thread is pretty far from its original place, but I saw this (was this already posted? Too lazy to check) and it’s the economy, for sure.

www.npr.org/2024/11/07/nx-s1-5182886/trump-economy-latino-women-right-election-results

I thought this was an interesting takeaway, too:
“there has been a change in the Hispanic electorate that has been underway for some time. Because as the population grows and more and more Hispanic voters were born in the U.S., are native English speakers, consume more English — almost exclusively English language media — they start politically seeming like just everybody else, right? And as the population grows in that segment in particular, you would expect, just like historically, Irish immigrants, Italian immigrants, Polish, to assimilate and be like everybody else. So in some ways, from a demography standpoint, it's not that much of a surprise. ”

[themoneytree]

Nov 7, 2024 18:41:06 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

I feel like I took acid. What happened to this board? What t happened to all the listening and learning we all did years ago? Fuck all??

I thought this discussion was about how to win an election. I don’t think that’s the same thing?

[tamarindy]

Nov 7, 2024 18:41:06 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

I feel like I took acid. What happened to this board? What t happened to all the listening and learning we all did years ago? Fuck all??

You are so far up your own ass, it’s truly incredible.

[Saudade]

Nov 7, 2024 11:15:50 GMT -5 stuffandthings said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:05:59 GMT -5 dirtyred said:

Illegal immigration is the main thing the people that I know that voted for Trump speak about.  They don't like the "illegals" getting housing and food assistance while they're struggling.  They say the Biden administration (and especially Kamala) did squat about it, seemed to care more for them than U.S. citizens.

And I do realize that they're only talking about brown immigrants.

See, that's what I mean when I say I don't understand the path to persuasion here. Undocumented people are not getting housing or food assistance. They're ineligible for all federal and most state programs. They're paying more in taxes than they get. It's factually inaccurate. I run a nonprofit that sponsors legal immigrants to the US, and I can promise everyone, no one is getting free stuff except corporations and billionaires.

But beyond that, I don't understand what people think the difference is between a person who was born a citizen and a person who paid their entire life savings so a coyote could smuggle them into Arizona and they could escape a Venezuelan death squad. Why does the first person inherently deserve food and shelter and the second one doesn't?

How do we counter these ideas? Telling people the facts doesn't work. Telling people they're wrong doesn't work. Explaining to people that they should care about other people regardless of whether they were born here or had to sneak across the border to keep their kids from being murdered doesn't work. Appealing to their better natures doesn't work. This is why we're divided--it's not a question of "priorities," it's a question of the fundamental understanding of reality and right and wrong.

I know we’ve moved on but this hasn’t been commented on.

You are too rational. Of course undocumented people are ineligible for safety net programs or any assistance. But that doesn’t stop people from *believing* they get food stamps or housing assistance. It doesn’t stop them from telling other people that undocumented people get those services. I work in rural WI where it’s very Red. This is the viewpoint of so many around here. Trying to explain or show them how wrong they are, never works. Their response is always “I know they do. I’ve seen it. I saw a post on it”.

[laladypoet]

Nov 7, 2024 19:14:40 GMT -5 tamarindy said:

Nov 7, 2024 18:41:06 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

I feel like I took acid. What happened to this board? What t happened to all the listening and learning we all did years ago? Fuck all??

You are so far up your own ass, it’s truly incredible.

Quick question. When people leave a conversation with you, do they bash their face into a wall immediately or do they wait a few seconds?