Politics Question: Voter ID

[crimewatcher]

For or Against it?

I have the option to vote for a few Minnesota Constitutional Amendments.

As it reads...
Amendment 2:
Shall the Minnesota Constitution be amended to require all voters to present valid photo identification to vote and to require the state to provide free identification to eligible voters, effective July 1, 2013.


I have always been for voter ID, but even more so since MN will have to provide them free of charge to the poor. I remember working at the homeless shelters when I was little they provided photo IDs (well shuttled them to the DMV to get one and paid the cost). However, I don't know how to did the address- if they used the shelters or not?

[iluvmytxrgr]

I think you should have to show ID. How do you know a person is who they say they are if they aren't showing an ID? During every election, we hear of voter fraud. It will go down significantly if we have to show an ID. Legally, you are supposed to carry ID with you anyway. An ID here costs $5 and last 5 years. That's not expensive. If the state is willing to pay for it, I would be even more inclined to vote yes on it.

[hike]

Hey guys!

I understand where tx is coming from and I do think not having an ID can create fraud problems but I also don't think getting IDs is "free" even if the ID doesn't cost money. What about the cost of transportation to get one? Taking a day off? If someone doesn't have transportation to the DMV, how will they get there?

I don't think there is an easy answer but if you're for it, then vote for it.

[iluvmytxrgr]

There are resources. There are many organizations here that will drive you to the DMV to get an ID and register to vote. Those same organizations will drive you to your voting station. Our county is also considering free bus fare to and from polling places. I've been dirt floor poor before. I managed to do it. I had some one make that same point to me while she was holding a bag full of Arby's food. If you can afford to go to Arby's you can get your self to the DMV. I can feed my family for a week off what it costs for the 6 of us to buy lunch at Arby's.

[hike]

Oct 3, 2012 8:29:15 GMT -5 iluvmytxrgr said:

There are resources. There are many organizations here that will drive you to the DMV to get an ID and register to vote. Those same organizations will drive you to your voting station. Our county is also considering free bus fare to and from polling places. I've been dirt floor poor before. I managed to do it. I had some one make that same point to me while she was holding a bag full of Arby's food. If you can afford to go to Arby's you can get your self to the DMV. I can feed my family for a week off what it costs for the 6 of us to buy lunch at Arby's.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I just was presenting the other argument. I lived in Virginia basically my whole voting life (except for college but that was mail in) so I had to show ID. I never realized it was such a hot button topic until I started reading up on this stuff.

I'm just trying to present another side of the argument.

[hike]

And also, people might not be educated on the resources that there are in a town or city (free rides, etc). Those same people might not have access to the internet or TV or whatever it is that can tell them about those free rides or bus fare. When I was teaching, numerous lower income families had no idea what was available to them.

That's probably an unpopular thing to point out and people might not understand it but it's definitely something that happens and is an issue.

[beans]

I am against it, largely for the same reasons stan listed. Also, voter fraud is much more likely to occur with absentee ballots, which this doesn't even address.

[G22]

I'm for it. And most DMV places will make appointments for you to come in if you want. You don't have to stand in line. I made an appointment on my lunch hour when I had to get a MT license and it took me all of 10-15 minutes to get it.

[beans]

All the poor, elderly, and already disenfranchised people without IDs need to get their bootstraps together so that we can fix a perceived problem that doesn't even really exist!! Middle class people have no problems getting these mundane tasks completed, so why should they?!?!??

I don't think a lot of people *truly truly* understand what these other populations go through or how things like this disenfranchise them even further. I mean, I have been broke, too. My family was growing up. But I think its fair to say we were and always have been "middle class" - lower middle class, yes. But middle class all the same, and I would wager that is the same for *most* the posters here, even if they have been in a temporary broke situation, very very few of us on the board have actually experienced real poverty. So its hard to be empathetic to those situations when you know nothing about it, and just it from your perspective of how "easy" it is to go get an ID.

[hike]

Oct 3, 2012 12:47:11 GMT -5 beans said:

All the poor, elderly, and already disenfranchised people without IDs need to get their bootstraps together so that we can fix a perceived problem that doesn't even really exist!! Middle class people have no problems getting these mundane tasks completed, so why should they?!?!??

I don't think a lot of people *truly truly* understand what these other populations go through or how things like this disenfranchise them even further. I mean, I have been broke, too. My family was growing up. But I think its fair to say we were and always have been "middle class" - lower middle class, yes. But middle class all the same, and I would wager that is the same for *most* the posters here, even if they have been in a temporary broke situation, very very few of us on the board have actually experienced real poverty. So its hard to be empathetic to those situations when you know nothing about it, and just it from your perspective of how "easy" it is to go get an ID.

Your second paragraph was where I was trying to go with what I was saying.

Not having access to these things is a real problem. Just because it seems so easy to go get an ID, doesn't mean it really is.

Just because you can make an appointment to go to the DMV, doesn't make it okay to make this a law.

Edit: My second two sentences weren't directed to you beans.

[basilosaurus]

Show me evidence of voter fraud, and then show me that an ID can fix it. Oh, wait, you can't. Not only is fraud not particularly an issue, the type of fraud there, which would mainly be the same person voting in multiple districts, or by multiple absentee votes, would not be prevented by an ID.

However, citizens of this country, people who have a constitutional right to vote, people who are protected against a poll tax by our laws and courts, may be denied that right due to lack of access to ID.

I'll see if I can find a few articles about the challenges people face getting ID. There was one from a CEO the other day, so not a dumb or disenfranchised guy, and he still had problems.

What happens if you were born at home, in a rural county, 70 years ago. Do you think you have a birth certificate or easy way to get one? What will it cost you to track down that information and get a copy? It has to be free so that there's no poll tax, so, then, what will it cost the state to provide it? How much time will it take, and will you get everything in time to actually vote?

There are other reasons people might not have the necessary documentation. It might have been lost or destroyed as people move. They might have never needed it before, so they wouldn't even know this law applies to them until election day. Urban people who don't drive, old folks who don't drive anymore, not everyone has gone through the DMV process.

But let's say people are able (have the documentation) and willing to go through the process. How many people in poverty have the chance to take the bus to the DMV, sit all day, during the hours they're open. Shall they quit work? Risk being fired for not showing up? Taking an unpaid day to deal with this certainly sounds like a poll tax to me.

[basilosaurus]

Wait, I missed that we're supposed to have an ID at all times. Do we live in communist Russia? It's perfectly legal for me to walk down the street with no ID. Certain actions may require an ID, but there is no requirement merely to be a citizen.

Here's an article on costs associated with voter ID.
www.washingtonpost.com/politics/study-finds-costs-associated-with-voter-ids/2012/07/17/gJQAlrcXsW_story.html

It's old enough that it doesn't have the results of the Texas court case, which ruled that their law did in fact disenfranchise minorities.

[beans]

Oct 3, 2012 13:15:19 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Show me evidence of voter fraud, and then show me that an ID can fix it. Oh, wait, you can't. Not only is fraud not particularly an issue, the type of fraud there, which would mainly be the same person voting in multiple districts, or by multiple absentee votes, would not be prevented by an ID.

However, citizens of this country, people who have a constitutional right to vote, people who are protected against a poll tax by our laws and courts, may be denied that right due to lack of access to ID.

I'll see if I can find a few articles about the challenges people face getting ID. There was one from a CEO the other day, so not a dumb or disenfranchised guy, and he still had problems.

What happens if you were born at home, in a rural county, 70 years ago. Do you think you have a birth certificate or easy way to get one? What will it cost you to track down that information and get a copy? It has to be free so that there's no poll tax, so, then, what will it cost the state to provide it? How much time will it take, and will you get everything in time to actually vote?

There are other reasons people might not have the necessary documentation. It might have been lost or destroyed as people move. They might have never needed it before, so they wouldn't even know this law applies to them until election day. Urban people who don't drive, old folks who don't drive anymore, not everyone has gone through the DMV process.

But let's say people are able (have the documentation) and willing to go through the process. How many people in poverty have the chance to take the bus to the DMV, sit all day, during the hours they're open. Shall they quit work? Risk being fired for not showing up? Taking an unpaid day to deal with this certainly sounds like a poll tax to me.

:Y:

[basilosaurus]

From that article:

In some areas, the offices that issue IDs maintain limited business hours. Rural areas in Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas are served by part-time ID offices. And in an extreme example, the researchers found the office in Sauk City, Wis., is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. That would limit the office to being open just four days this year.

Voters who do not have their birth certificates or marriage licenses may have to pay additional costs because those documents are required to obtain a photo ID in some cases.

The report said birth certificates can cost between $8 and $25. Marriage licenses, required in some states for married women whose birth certificates include a maiden name, can cost between $8 and $20. “By comparison, the notorious poll tax — outlawed during the civil rights era — cost $10.64 in current dollars,” the report states.

In the Texas case, a judge on the panel suggested the law would force some people to travel more than 100 miles to get the documents required for a photo identification.

[hike]

Pretend I said everything Sibil said

[basilosaurus]

See also: Pennsylvania. Yesterday a court issued an injunction against their voter ID law. Their law "

To get a photo ID, residents must have a valid Social Security card; an official birth certificate or U.S. citizenship documents; and two proofs of residency, such as a utility bill or tax records.

" Tell me that's not a burden!

More data:

"In 2008, New York University’s Brennan Center for Justice extensively researched Republican charges of voter fraud and found that it is “more likely that an individual will be struck by lightning than that he will impersonate another voter at the polls.”

The story of one woman who would face a poll tax based on a voter ID law:
"Delores Freelon, an elderly, black, disabled registered voter in South Carolina, is sitting at her dining room table in Northeast Columbia and fussing with a copy of her birth certificate. Lately it’s been giving her grief.

The form, issued to her in California in 1952, doesn’t list her first name. She doesn’t know why, and frankly, it’s never caused her enough trouble to consider. The retired hospital worker has lived in California, Arkansas, Texas, New York and Louisiana.

She’d been able to obtain a driver’s license and vote in each of those states, even with the blank first-name box on her birth certificate.

“It’s only when I came to South Carolina that there was a problem,” she said on a recent Thursday afternoon.

For two years, Freelon has tried everything to get a state-issued photo ID, but that blank box has been a sticking point. So far she’s spent roughly $200 jumping through hoops. She’s paid for fingerprints ($10), a criminal background check ($25) and a statement to the Department of Social Services ($8). She’s paid a $150 filing fee and filed a separate affidavit for a family court hearing to get a court-ordered name.

At first, all of this just meant that Delores Freelon couldn’t drive. But last spring, after GOP Gov. Nikki Haley signed a strict Voter ID law that had been passed by the Republican-controlled Legislature, not having a driver’s license — or any other state-issued photo ID — means Delores Freelon might not be able to cast a regular ballot when she shows up to her polling place on Election Day, Nov. 6."

If you're worried about state budgets, consider the cost of the state to provide ID free (and all the documentation required to get ID). That's cheap compared to the cost to the states trying to defend their laws against a legal challenge. So far, these ID laws are not generally being upheld.
www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/us/pennsylvania-judge-delays-implementation-of-voter-id-law.html

[beans]

i love you sibyl. just fyi.

[ggirl]

Wait, where is this DMV that takes appointments? Back in NYS, I used to go a hour before it opened and still be waiting in a line outside the door.


Also, ditto Stan and Sibil.

[crimewatcher]

Sorry I posted and ran. I was late for work because my work out went late.

I think there are ways to address the poor and disenfranchised but I think it goes back to costing tax payers more money. Like I mentioned in my original post Minnesota is pretty different, we are only 1 of 2 states that allow registered voters to "vouch" for others.. up to 15 people. So our voting system is kind of a nightmare and we have as much as 20% of voter fraud or ineligible voters last election found after the election. Minnesota claims this program will not cost the voter anything. I take that with a grain of salt but I know the homeless shelters already have an ID program. However, there are plenty of poor people out there that don't use the shelters.

[basilosaurus]

crimewatcher, will an ID address the type of fraud MN claims to have? Where are you getting your numbers of 20% fraud? Are those sources biased? Every study I've looked into has determined that voter fraud is extremely rare. Like less than .001% rare. Do you really think MN would have a rate 20,000 times more common?

If the program will not cost the voter anything, will it cost the taxpayer something? Nothing's free.

[hike]

I'd also like to know how they can say it won't cost the voter anything.

[Saudade]

::Lurker from MN::

There isn't 20% voter fraud here. There just isn't.
Here is a link for stats from Ramsey County:

mnbenchbar.com/2012/08/debating-voter-id-voter-fraud-the-impact-of-voter-id/

"During the same time period, the total number of persons voting in an election in Ramsey County was 1,039,890. The number of convictions for voter fraud during this period constitutes one-hundredth of one percent (0.0001) of the total voting during the six-year period."

[basilosaurus]

Oh, so my number was a decimal point off. Make that 200,000 times!

[bigmamma]

So.... if it so amazingly difficult to take a couple hours out of your day to get an ID (which the elderly have for medicaid/medicare)... how do these people magically find time and transportation to go vote?

Couldn't groups like ACORN be diligent throughout the year about getting people to their ID points?

Why couldn't the state have mobile ID Teams that go to shelters and provide id's w/ vital records look up?

I understand that there are obstacles in the way of the "poor and elderly" getting id's but shouldn't time and energy be spent overcoming those obstacles; not fighting the fact people should PROVE their citizenship/eligibility to vote with proper identification?

[crimewatcher]

the article I was reading was from a local news channel that was looking into the Minnesota Majority which is a huge backer of the program. However, given that my state lost a quarter of the votes from one district doesn't surprise me haha.

Here is one that has a little from both sides but basically ends up with no one will know ... minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/08/14/good-question-is-minnesota-1-for-voter-fraud/

minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/09/18/politics/voter-id-amendment-voter-fraud/

I got the 20% from a biased source that was looking at flagged and thrown out because the addresses were made up. However, based on the definition of voter fraud it may or may not apply. -- My bad. :/

[basilosaurus]

bigmamma, voter ID is a solution looking for a cause. Time and energy should not be spent on an effort that at best does nothing and at worst disenfranchises citizens of their legal rights.

If you bring up medicare, you might want to realize that they allow many more forms of documentation in lieu of a birth certificate than states would for voter ID.

Also, shelters are just a tiny fraction of people who would be affected. What about the working poor. Any ideas on how to reach them?

[hike]

Oct 3, 2012 15:32:50 GMT -5 bigmamma said:

So.... if it so amazingly difficult to take a couple hours out of your day to get an ID (which the elderly have for medicaid/medicare)... how do these people magically find time and transportation to go vote?

Couldn't groups like ACORN be diligent throughout the year about getting people to their ID points?

Why couldn't the state have mobile ID Teams that go to shelters and provide id's w/ vital records look up?

I understand that there are obstacles in the way of the "poor and elderly" getting id's but shouldn't time and energy be spent overcoming those obstacles; not fighting the fact people should PROVE their citizenship/eligibility to vote with proper identification?

Places to vote are open longer than the DMV. There are also groups that provide transportation on election day. There is also the mail in vote.

[basilosaurus]

Oct 3, 2012 15:39:19 GMT -5 crimewatcher said:

I got the 20% from a biased source that was looking at flagged and thrown out because the addresses were made up. However, based on the definition of voter fraud it may or may not apply. -- My bad. :/

This is proof that your current system to prevent fraud works! That's another reason you wouldn't need ID.

[crimewatcher]

Oct 3, 2012 15:32:50 GMT -5 bigmamma said:

So.... if it so amazingly difficult to take a couple hours out of your day to get an ID (which the elderly have for medicaid/medicare)... how do these people magically find time and transportation to go vote?

Couldn't groups like ACORN be diligent throughout the year about getting people to their ID points?

Why couldn't the state have mobile ID Teams that go to shelters and provide id's w/ vital records look up?

I understand that there are obstacles in the way of the "poor and elderly" getting id's but shouldn't time and energy be spent overcoming those obstacles; not fighting the fact people should PROVE their citizenship/eligibility to vote with proper identification?

I really like your idea of a mobile center. But i think people get angry about paying for those services that shouldn't need to be done/have in the first place.

[crimewatcher]

Oct 3, 2012 15:43:28 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Oct 3, 2012 15:39:19 GMT -5 crimewatcher said:

I got the 20% from a biased source that was looking at flagged and thrown out because the addresses were made up. However, based on the definition of voter fraud it may or may not apply. -- My bad. :/

This is proof that your current system to prevent fraud works! That's another reason you wouldn't need ID.

Majority Minnesota is claiming that money spent on the ID Program will save money later from all the flagged cases being "checked on/investigated".