This photo fills me with rage. I also have such a helpless feeling of guilt by association due to our nations allegiance to Israel.
Really? Really?!
Great to ignore the 12,000 rockets launched into Israeli towns over the last 12 years and the leafing by the Israeli army telling civilians to take cover.
You're being ever bit as hateful as Maggie EVER was to you. You would get all up in arms about that.
Chill pickle.
Look! A calf!
Mmm. No. Unless you were taking notes. She once told me (this is my all-time fave, I think she hates it when I reference it -- it actually might summon her like Beetlejuice), 'Your husband wouldn't f*ck you with the neighbor's d*ck.'
It's pretty funny now, actually, but I think she's still on top. And she'd be pleased.
I don't get this at all. Do you ever notice the wonderful things that happen in the world? Who 'allows' those? I'm cool with you saying "not God", but it goes both ways.
There are about as many horrible things as wonderful things. So I'm guessing it is all just happening. I don't know. Like I said, I try, I wish I believed, I am not at a happy place in my agnosticism. But I can't.
I'm ordering the book frkls keeps recommending. My last attempt at finding good religious answers in a book was a failure, but I keep trying.
I didn't mean to offend anyone. I am sorry. I just struggle with this.
Papie, (I'm totally going to butcher this as I summarize this...) I've read articles about the best way to think of it is God created the "perfect" world. However, once man sinned, it cause a negative chain of events to occur. As well as things like God has given us free will/freedom to choose our path. I know the way I wrote that out sounds so stupid, but there is a lot of literature out there on this topic.
I've had a lot of things happen to me that make me think, "There's no way there could be a God" but reading different books has helped. I also guess that since I'm Orthodox (I think that's what your family is, too?) I still feel so culturally connected that even if I didn't believe, I would still be involved in the community so there's that.
The book that Frkls suggested (thanks cjoy for helping me out) is outstanding.
That being said, it's neither here nor there. That's atrocious, what's happening in the Middle East. Especially tragic given the innocent souls lost, like this baby. So many underlying religious issues between the parties. But, this post reiterates how challenging religious tolerance could be.
I feel compelled to echo the pp who said that Israel alone is not to blame. Trust that Israeli men and women have held their own babies in the same state. Placing the blame solely on Israel is just an ill-informed and unfair judgement.
Also, man, I have to disagree...that picture is really graphic, in the sense that I wish I had never seen it, or anything like it
There are about as many horrible things as wonderful things. So I'm guessing it is all just happening. I don't know. Like I said, I try, I wish I believed, I am not at a happy place in my agnosticism. But I can't.
I'm ordering the book frkls keeps recommending. My last attempt at finding good religious answers in a book was a failure, but I keep trying.
I didn't mean to offend anyone. I am sorry. I just struggle with this.
Papie, (I'm totally going to butcher this as I summarize this...) I've read articles about the best way to think of it is God created the "perfect" world. However, once man sinned, it cause a negative chain of events to occur. As well as things like God has given us free will/freedom to choose our path. I know the way I wrote that out sounds so stupid, but there is a lot of literature out there on this topic.
I've had a lot of things happen to me that make me think, "There's no way there could be a God" but reading different books has helped. I also guess that since I'm Orthodox (I think that's what your family is, too?) I still feel so culturally connected that even if I didn't believe, I would still be involved in the community so there's that.
Thanks. I'm Orthodox too, but I'm not involved in the community. Cjoy suggested some more books to me, so I'm going to do some more reading.
Thanks everyone for understanding what I meant, and not thinking I am all cuckoo for randomly throwing my religion woes to your faces.
Placing the blame solely on Israel is just an ill-informed and unfair judgement.
No one here is doing that though, so the point is somewhat moot right?
There was a poster on page 1 that was. I didn't see much acknowledgement that this is an intractable clash between two peoples, not a one-sided war on Palestinians.
Post by mkesweetie on Nov 15, 2012 21:38:12 GMT -5
listen, here's the thing about the whole "if there's a god, he's an ass" thing.
those of you that say that, what do you say about the good things in life? every time a baby is born? a life is saved? a beautiful garden blooms? the sun set, the view of the ocean, the way the clouds look all billowed from the window seat on a plane?
do you say, "if there is a god, here is proof of how amazing she is, in all her glory?"
somehow i suspect not.
so yes, if you want to believe that god is an all powerful being whose job is to prevent tragedy from happening, then i suspect not believing is an easy choice. i don't think i'd want to believe in a god like that.
but the fact that bad things do happen every day in this word (and not just in palestine, but everywhere, in every part of the world and as we see here on this board every.single.fucking.day) does not mean that 1 - god exists, or 2 - that if god does exist he sucks.
tragedy and sadness are a part of life as much as beauty and happiness are. neither/none of the above prove the existence or lack of god.
Post by snipsnsnails on Nov 15, 2012 21:42:37 GMT -5
neener - I'm so glad you responded. I was waiting to see if you'd chime in. I appreciate your thoughtfulness and intelligence on the subject. Thanks for that.
The continued turmoil is something I don't take lightly and although I hope for peace, I do find myself becoming more cynical as time goes on, and it's not where I want to be.
And I said in a later post (pg 2) that I realize both sides have blame. I was responding to the loss of the baby's life that Toledo posted about in my first post.
I will say- when you look at the number of deaths, those of Palestinians is much higher than those of Israelis. And from my (minimal ill admit) research on this, Israel's attacks tend to be bigger, and overall deadlier.
Yeah, you responded by saying Israelis have no regard for human life. I don't think you know enough about this to have an informed opinion, and I'm going to leave it at that.
It hurts my heart so badly. It shows me everything I hate about the dialog around the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, although many people were more nuanced and educated than I expected. It is not black and white, folks. Palestinians are angry, but many of them do peace activism rather than fire rockets. I have met these people and studied with them. The situation has gotten worse since Oslo rather than better. Both governments are causing their people so much pain. I pray for a 2 state solution - Palestinians and Jews both shared that land before 1948 and Jewish principles say it should be so. I love Israel and believe in its right to exist as a Jewish democratic state. Right now it is pushing my limits in terms of where I draw the line. There has been a ton of anti-equality propaganda against women there.
I also think there should be Palestine...there is so much to be done before either side is there. It is a work in progress and there have been mistakes, just like there were mistakes in the founding of America. It's horrible and I have a huge problem with giving a thumbs up to the Israeli government for a)expanding settlements in disputed areas, b)halting Palestinian construction in E Jerusalem (people NEED HOMES), c)checkpoints as they are operated now, and so many other things...but firing rockets at civilians and hiding the launchers in schools does not further your cause. These people are angry about occupation, rightfully so, and at the Israeli government's impasse/politicking, but that is not an excuse and it only furthers the right-wing furor. So much is fucked up there, and it's so unbelievably complicated...
mkesweetie - I think you are taking this way too personally.
eh, not really.
also, is "you're taking this too personally" akin to "are you ok?"
Nope. Sorry.
You are faithful and that is wonderful. But it is completely okay for someone else to not be faithful and to express anger at god. This was not a post lashing out at you.
We can be strongly pro-Israel, just as we are strongly pro-America, while still thinking the country is presently under the control of a power mad war criminal. It happens, America had that same issue itself for 8 years. But the UN needs to reign that shit in. Now.
It hurts my heart so badly. It shows me everything I hate about the dialog around the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, although many people were more nuanced and educated than I expected. It is not black and white, folks. Palestinians are angry, but many of them do peace activism rather than fire rockets. I have met these people and studied with them. The situation has gotten worse since Oslo rather than better. Both governments are causing their people so much pain. I pray for a 2 state solution - Palestinians and Jews both shared that land before 1948 and Jewish principles say it should be so. I love Israel and believe in its right to exist as a Jewish democratic state. Right now it is pushing my limits in terms of where I draw the line. There has been a ton of anti-equality propaganda against women there.
I also think there should be Palestine...there is so much to be done before either side is there. It is a work in progress and there have been mistakes, just like there were mistakes in the founding of America. It's horrible and I have a huge problem with giving a thumbs up to the Israeli government for a)expanding settlements in disputed areas, b)halting Palestinian construction in E Jerusalem (people NEED HOMES), c)checkpoints as they are operated now, and so many other things...but firing rockets at civilians and hiding the launchers in schools does not further your cause. These people are angry about occupation, rightfully so, and at the Israeli government's impasse/politicking, but that is not an excuse and it only furthers the right-wing furor. So much is fucked up there, and it's so unbelievably complicated...